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November 15

Is this OVS

In some books, I saw that quotations were formatted as [insert quote here], followed by the word “said” and then the name of the speaking character. Is this a form of OVS word order, as the ultimate subject is positioned last, preceded by the verb, and the quote (which takes the function of an object) is the first element written in the sentence? Primal Groudon (talk) 05:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Effectively, yes, but it results from V2 word order. This is the normal word order in Germanic languages and used to be the standard in English too, before it switched to mostly SVO. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:05, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

PiusImpavidus -- V2 constructions occurred frequently in early Germanic, but the basic word order of a simple sentence was SOV, and definjitely not OVS (see Proto-Germanic_grammar#Syntax). AnonMoos (talk) 20:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, as I wrote. Basic order in Germanic is SOV and in main clauses the topic is moved to first and the finite verb to second position. If subject, finite verb and object are the only things present (as in the question) and the object is the topic, the resulting order is OVS, but the rule is V2. PiusImpavidus (talk) 15:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Placing the speaker first, then the word “said” and then the quote, would still be V2. Primal Groudon (talk) 23:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, and “speaker said ‘quote’” is allowed both in SVO English and V2 German. “‘quote’ said speaker” is typically not allowed in SVO, but is allowed in V2. It's normal in Germanic and allowed as an exception in English because of its history as V2 language. “‘quote’ speaker said” isn't allowed in V2 and indeed doesn't normally occur in Germanic, but is allowed in English by moving the object to first position, whilst keeping SV order, as English is no longer V2. PiusImpavidus (talk) 15:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Primal Groudon: See Quotation § Quotative inversion. Bazza 7 (talk) 10:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Right Said Fred -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 20:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

What's this Australian word: a "muster"?

Obviously she means "a great deal". But what actual word is this Australian woman uttering here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgUv_lQgOXI&t=104s (104 seconds into the video) 178.51.16.158 (talk) 09:44, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikt:motza. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:51, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I found two pun-based proposed origins; matzo ("bread", meaning possibly from Yiddish) or mozzarella ("big cheese"). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

It's "motza". Here is an excellent in-depth explanation of it. HiLo48 (talk) 13:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Aren't the "alternative slang terms" pretty universal, though? With the possible exception of "stack". 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:52, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

That website sounds AI-generated to me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Is that a problem? HiLo48 (talk) 23:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

If the AI considers general English words as Australian slang, its assumptions aren't fully valid. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, it just seemed to me that the texts on that website (on several of its pages) showed the typical predominance of fluff, redundancy and clichéd trivialities and very low level of concrete information that's characteristic of AI-generated text. If you look closely, you'll see that it offers very very little in terms of actual facts. I'd say it's the very opposite of an "in-depth explanation". Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:32, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

↑+1 DuncanHill (talk) 12:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Claimed there to be from Yiddish motsa meaning "bundle" or "heap". I can't find an attestation (not as a mention but as a use) of such a Yiddish etymon (מוצאַ?).  --Lambiam 11:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

This Australian National University webpage describes the origin as the Yiddish word for "unleavened bread". That seems slightly more reliable to me than a website called "Slang Sensei". I know nothing about Australian slang but I do know about matzah which is a Hebrew word, not a Yiddish word. It is discussed twice in the Book of Exodus and twice in the Book of Deuteronomy, so the word is at least 2600 years old. Matzah does not literally mean "bundle" or "heap" in any way. It means the rapidly produced crisp unleavened bread that the Israelites ate when they were hurriedly fleeing from Egypt, as the story goes. So, here is my informed speculation about how the slang may have originated. During the highly important annual ritual Passover seder meal, the humble matzah is an essential component that is treated almost as a religious treasure. Three matzah must be stacked up, comprising a "heap", and the center piece of matzah plays a special role in the ritual meal, which is described at Afikoman. The matzah is often stored in a ritual box or wrapped in a specially embroidered cloth, creating a "bundle". I think that it is possible that these connotations influenced the Australian slang. Coincidentally, the rabbi Joseph Asher, who married my wife and I in San Francisco 43 years ago, was earlier a rabbi in Australia in the aftermath of World War II. Cullen328 (talk) 09:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Did you really intend to write that rabbi Asher married your wife and that you were a rabbi yourself 43 years ago when you lived in San Francisco in Australia? — Kpalion^(talk) 09:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Kpalion, please see the Merriam-Webster definition 1d of "marry": to perform the ceremony of marriage for: "a priest will marry them". I added two commas to help you relieve your confusion. Cullen328 (talk) 05:00, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Cullen328, it's not the verb that's throwing me off; it's the nominative case in the object ("my wife and I") where the oblique case ("my wife and me") would be expected. — Kpalion^(talk) 08:21, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Kpalion, thanks for the writing lesson! A billion people on the internet yearn for your expert advice. You are bound to win friends and influence people. Cullen328 (talk) 09:30, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Keeping on looking in their eyes all people on the net I can get the picture of, and still, after all that time still not found my twin there. --Askedonty (talk) 23:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

When a word should sound like another word, and people start saying it that way

What's this called? I just saw somebody saying *brumination for wikt:brumation, which apparently needs the extra syllable because hibernation has one.  Card Zero  (talk) 21:54, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

That would be a form of analogical change. --Amble (talk) 22:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh yes. Flammable octopi, for example. Thank you.  Card Zero  (talk) 22:23, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I suspect rumination might have played a bigger part here than hibernation, though. (Or at least a similar part.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:46, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

The most specific linguistic term for this is "contamination", as on the linked page. A classic example of this is that the word for "nine" in the Slavic languages changed from beginning with an "n-" consonant to beginning with a "d-" consonant, since the following number word (meaning "ten") also began with "d-". AnonMoos (talk) 10:45, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

wikt:Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/devętь. It calls this "dissimilation" (?) and mentions a similar effect in Proto-Germanic, leading to four and five starting with the same sound. Otherwise I suppose we'd say pour wour and five. But this regularization is a terrible instinct! Number-words that sound similar are really unhelpful! For instance, none, one, and nine. This is a subject area where mistakes get expensive.  Card Zero  (talk) 11:28, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

And many Romance speakers have to watch their sixties and seventies. (A plot twist in a teenager romantic dramedy I watched in my Spanish classes, where the foreigner - I think a British expat - wrote down the wrong phone number.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:10, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

The Indo-European words for 4 and 5 were roughly kʷetwor and penkʷe, which allowed a fair amount of scope for contamination between the two. In Germanic, there's a rather complex path between reconstructed PIE and the attested forms; Slavic 9 is simpler... AnonMoos (talk) 20:37, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

P.S. The non-analogical result of word-initial PIE kʷ- in English is wh-. AnonMoos (talk) 20:39, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Card Zero As for what it is called, are you referring to a Malapropism? Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Well no, to be pacific, those are correctly-formed words used in a context where they don't quite fit, such as "I hear footprints! Someone is encroaching!", or "I experienced their pleasure bi-curiously." I'm happy with analogical change, all I really wanted was a few other examples. Back-formation is related, but again slightly different since it coins new words from imagined grammar, rather than bending existing words into a more comfortable shape (while keeping the meaning the same).  Card Zero  (talk) 23:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, if it's correctly-formed words you want, it's a mondegreen. ColinFine (talk) 22:15, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

No, I meant that malapropisms are correctly-formed words, wrongly used. What I'm after is when the right word is distorted. And a mondegreen is a mishearing! I'm talking about when an uncommon word mutates to follow the pattern of a more familiar one.  Card Zero  (talk) 23:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Would mischievious be an example? This erroneous variant of mischievous formed under the influence of adjectives ending in -ious such as devious and nefarious, pronounced pronouncedly differently, has become so common that it is no longer considered a grievious :) error; people even tend to think mischievous is a typo.  --Lambiam 05:16, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes! That's a good one because it's pronounced differently too. I suppose it's hard to prove influence, and maybe every misspelling has a claim to fit the category. Extacy seems to fit better than others, though, being a clear example of regularization through the influence of all the ex- words. Unsure about gubberment.  Card Zero  (talk) 05:36, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I (a Brit) have always assumed this was a deliberate US distortion intended to show distain/contempt for the institution. Do any US speakers/writers actually think it's correct? {The poster fornerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.211.243 (talk) 09:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

No. "Gubberment" and the shorter version "gummint" is joking usage. Cullen328 (talk) 05:16, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Is "distain" (for disdain) one of those distortions? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

It's Eye dialect, and might be parody or self parody, or perhaps happen naturally. I suppose this one doesn't count, because a dialect is like a reshaping pattern applied to all the words.  Card Zero  (talk) 11:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

A classic example from British football commentary is the hideous newly coined word laxadaisical [sic]. For example, say a goal has been scored because a defender's positioning was lax: he wasn't tight to his opponent and let him get away and score. Somehow, somebody presumably thought this didn't sound right, was vaguely aware of the word lackadaisical (i.e. lethargic, unenthusiastic), thought that "lax" was somehow an abbreviation of it, wanted to use the "correct" full word, and came up with the new word "laxadaisical". I have a feeling it was somebody like Andy Townsend or Tony Cascarino who started it, but it starting to spread to other commentators now. I listen to a lot of radio football commentary, and hear it regularly. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 12:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Don't get me started on sportspeak. My pet peeve is describing a victory that has only just occurred, or even before the final siren has sounded, as "famous". Fame is something that builds up over a period of time after the event in question. It comes from people reminiscing about what happened (past tense). Otoh, something that was famous a few years ago has become virtually forgotten today, sometimes even beyond the reach of google, so where's your fame now? Witness the plethora of things that "go viral" or "take the world by storm": most of them have a shelf life of barely 15 seconds, let alone Warhol's 15 minutes. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

And on the same theme, when did it become the norm in sports commentary to talk about, for example, "the Hungary goalkeeper" rather than "the Hungarian goalkeeper". 'Twas not thus in my distant youth. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.211.243 (talk) 07:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe he hadn't had lunch yet.

Is that a British thing? I don't recall hearing it on American TV. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:29, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

@ 0:48, [1]. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Another one from (British) sports commentary I've just remembered (actually, I've just heard an example of it!): "hedging your bets" is increasingly rendered as "edging your bets" – possibly because of an assumed connection with being "on the edge" of two or more different choices...? Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 21:35, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

It involves only spelling and not pronunciation, but there's a curious case of analogy working at cross purposes in the common misspelling of accordion as accordian—presumably by analogy with the common -ian adjectival ending—whereas dalmatian (the dog), which does have that ending, is commonly misspelled dalmation, presumably by analogy with the common -tion noun ending. Deor (talk) 12:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Inspired by the same part of the world are references to something "Croation" [sic]. [2], [3], [4], [5] ... -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:34, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Espresso becoming "expresso" is presumably another example. Although according to our article that "incorrect" use of the x is common not just in English but in French and Spanish, and is consistent with the original Latin etymology of the Italian term, so I think one could argue that this is actually a reasonable adaptation of the spelling for other languages rather than an error. Iapetus (talk) 13:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Or we can view it as a loanblend, from the recipient's express + the donor's -o.  --Lambiam 10:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I think "expresso" is more of an Anglicisation than a grammatical error. It was the accepted term in the Beatnik coffee bar youth culture in 1950s London, see Expresso Bongo. Alansplodge (talk) 11:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I had a supervisor in San Francisco 50 years ago who regularly combined "flustered" and "frustrated" into "flustrated". Wanting to avoid pedantry, I let it pass without comment. He was a fine man. Cullen328 (talk) 05:12, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

November 21

How common are long vowels in super-closed syllables?

In languages other than English, how common is it for long vowels or diphthongs to be allowed in super-closed syllables ending in two or more consonant sounds? Example words are “minds,” “pounce,” and “paint.” Primal Groudon (talk) 18:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

It's rare. It might be allowed in the Germanic languages in general [excluding creoles] if you allow for the fact that long vowels are often at least somewhat diphthongized. E.g. the name 'Heintz', or glaubst 'believe' in German. It's also been reconstructed for proto-Indo-European, but reconstructions are always iffy. I don't know of it elsewhere, but I doubt Germanic is unique. — kwami (talk) 21:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

In Latin, vowels are basically always shortened before word-final -nt and always lengthened before word-final -ns. AnonMoos (talk) 22:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Latvian has this. Latvian phonology#Pitch accent lists three words glossed [luɔ̯ks] ColinFine (talk) 14:24, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Skimming diphthong, Faroese has nevnd (the diphthong is spelled 'ev'), Scots Gaelic cainnt, Welsh teyrn. Counting Latvian, that makes 3 branches of IE.

If you allow rising diphthongs, you'll find a lot more languages, such as Catalan with e.g. guant, but those depend on not analyzing e.g. /gwa/ as CCV (and some accounts even posit a phoneme /ɡʷ/ in this case). Of course, the same kind of argument can be made for English, where some sources analyze diphthongs as VC sequences (e.g. [aI] as /aj/), so you can probably find a way to argue all languages away if you have a theoretical model that predicts that such syllables cannot exist.

Oh, I've only been searching for diphthongs. It's easier to find languages with long vowels in this pattern. — kwami (talk) 20:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Arabic has a few "ultraheavy" syllables like ماد mādd, a participle. 71.126.56.38 (talk) 22:20, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but is the geminate CC pronounced in coda position, or only when a vowel follows? — kwami (talk) 23:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

November 22

language-correct description of size classes in statistical tables

Hi everyone, I am looking for the correct or best description of size classes in statistical tables, e.g. age groups. I have found those in use:

0 up to below 5
…
30 up to below 35
35 and more

and another version with "to under" instead of "up to below".

I'm not looking for a simplified version as in

30 to 34
35 and more

or even with a dash (–) instead of "to".

Since I'm not a native speaker of English (but instead of German) I am asking the native speakers here for correct English :-) Specifically for the correct translation of the widely used bis unter in German tables into English, such as in

0 bis unter 5

Greetings,--Ratzer (talk) 15:37, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

If you use the 30 to under 35 style, you'll be following the example of the 1820 United States census, so I suppose that way of writing the table is idiomatic for 1820, at least. You have excluded the more modern idiom of 30 to 34. I wonder why. Are you doing a search-and-replace job on a large table?  Card Zero  (talk) 20:02, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

30 to 34; 35 to 39; etc. works for discrete variables, limited to integers, but fails when the variable can reach a value like 34.5. If the variable is continuous, a style like 30 to 35; 35 to 40; etc. works, as the probability of the variable being exactly 35 is normally zero. I tend to think of age as continuous. To be rigorous, you could try the maths option from interval (mathematics): [30,35); [35,40); etc. It's in maths language, so it's the same in German or English, but assumes your readers have a basic understanding of mathematics. (Note: my native language isn't English, German or Maths, but I have a decent understanding of all of them.) PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll use the 30 to under 35 style. I had been looking for the best translation, not for a simplification or a math expression :-) Greetings,--Ratzer (talk) 10:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

If what you're looking for is an idiomatic English translation of 30 bis unter 35, then I don't think 30 to under 35 is it. It's a literal translation, but a native English speaker would never use such an expression. I think "30 to 34" is fine, or "between 30 and 34". --Viennese Waltz 08:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Once you are past 2 years old, your age is rarely going to be considered with such certainty as to include months or even half years. Someone born on 1 January 2000 and someone born on 29 November 2000 would both be described as being 24 years old today. As would anyone born between 30 November 1999 and 31 December 1999, for that matter. The normal usage for age groups would just use the integers: 30-34, 35-39, 40-44, etc. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:14, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

November 25

Adverb More Common Than Adjective Form

Are there any English words where the adverb form is more common than the adjective form? (e.g anatomical, anatomically). 115.188.72.131 (talk) 06:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

"Only" doesn't have a corresponding adjective form (ultimately it's derived from "one"). It's possible that "really" is more common than "real". The adverb and adjective "just" are written the same, but in some varieties of English they're pronounced with quite distinct vowels, and the adverb is almost certainly more common than the adjective. AnonMoos (talk) 08:22, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Begrudgingly is more common than begrudging, see this Ngram Viewer graph. GalacticShoe (talk) 09:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

To my surprise, carefully is more common than careful. [6] GalacticShoe (talk) 09:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Hastily is more common than hasty. [7] GalacticShoe (talk) 13:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Rapidly and rapid are an interesting case in which the lead has swapped recently [8] (with the two still relatively close and rapid slightly ahead.) Similarly, relatively became more common than relative in 2014 [9], but it remains only slightly so. GalacticShoe (talk) 23:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Literally? Oh, here's a good one: now.  Card Zero  (talk) 07:15, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

November 26

Seremtrog na-kiskaa shinjerak

I remember back in school in the early 1990s, at computer class, one of my classmates made a simple point-and-click adventure game called (as far as I can remember) "Seremtrog na-kiskaa shinjerak". He added a note "The name of the game means 'The black cavern of the brown death cult'" or something (I don't remember the exact words). Does this name actually mean something in some language or is it something my classmate or someone else made up? Google Translate wasn't of much help. It identified the language as Russian but could not translate a single word to English. JIP | Talk 00:28, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Apparently made up, unless they had invented their own transliteration system for a language not written in the Latin script. Alansplodge (talk) 12:07, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

November 27

Spanish diphthongs

Does Spanish have any words where falling diphthongs occur before consonants, such as in made-up words loyto, peyre, sayl and muyche? I know no such words. --40bus (talk) 21:05, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I know very little Spanish, but how about "aire", as in "Buenos Aires"? AnonMoos (talk) 13:09, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

November 28

Clock questions

1. Does 12-hour clock have a written numeric form in any of continental European countries? Does it have a written numeric form in Finnish, Polish, Italian and Swedish, for example?
2. How do English speakers say leading zero of times such as 01:15?
3. Why does English not use word "clock" in expressions of time? Why is it not "Clock is five" but "It is five"?
4. Does English ever use expressions such as "It is 16", "I go to sleep at 22", "The shop opens at 7"? And are terms like "15 sunset" (meaning a sunset between 15:00 and 16:00) and "19 news" (meaning a news broadcast starting around 19:00) understood in the same way as "3 PM sunset" and "7 PM news"? --40bus (talk) 06:21, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

You have also asked questions 1 - 3 on the Miscellaneous desk, where I have already answered two of them. I suggest you transfer 4 there and strike out this query or the responses might become confused. If you do so I will also address 4 there. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.211.243 (talk) 07:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

This is the place to ask these questions, not the Miscellaneous desk. These are related to language. I posted these on wrong desk because I replied to the ethnicity question there, and forgot to go to another desk. I think that this discussion should be continued there. --40bus (talk) 07:52, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

40bus -- As I'm sure you've been told before, in the United States, military people sometimes say things such as "Men, we hit the beaches at oh-two-hundred hours" (i.e. 02:00) or "We have an inspection at twenty-two hundred hours" (22:00), but 12-hour AM and PM usage without leading zeroes predominates almost exclusively in non-military and non-narrowly-technical contexts... AnonMoos (talk) 13:05, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I can only speak from a British point of view, so don't know how things are said in other English speaking countries, but

2) I would say "Oh one fifteen". This would imply 01:15 in the morning as opposed to 13:15. "One fifteen" could be either morning or afternoon, depending on context.

3) "Clock is five" isn't an English expression, however "five o'clock" is. I believe this is short for the formal "five of the clock", but that would never be used in full. "Five o'clock" could be 05:00 or 17:00, again depending on context. "Seventeen o'clock" wouldn't be used.

4) The 24 hour clock is used to avoid ambiguity, for example in railway timetables, and understood by most people, but would only be used for a precise time, for example "The train leaves at twenty-two fifteen", not "the train leaves at quarter past twenty-two".

Generally the British use the 12 hour clock, and where necessary add "a.m." or "p.m." I don't know about other countries so can't answer #1. -- Voice of Clam (talk) 13:53, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

P.S. George Orwell's "1984" starts with the sentence "It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen", but I hope you don't want to live in that world... AnonMoos (talk) 14:42, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Besides "occasion" and "equation," what other word pairs sound somewhat similar enough that foreigners may intend to pronounce one word but pronounce a whole 'nother word by mispronouncing what they had intended?

I can also think of "pretend" and "portend."

What are words you can think of that sound like entirely different but similar words in any foreign accent? --2600:8803:1D13:7100:9FF:58EA:8413:22F3 (talk) 18:25, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Foreign accents vary widely, so the question is quite vaguely phrased. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:54, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, you don't have to cite similarities of word pairs for every accent; you can just share the ones for the accents you know. I'm hoping for a variety of answers from a variety of users. --2600:100A:B051:403F:5829:6046:7D7:35FD (talk) 03:11, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Both your examples have very different vowels (o versus e) in writing and to most people those sound very different too. Foreigners would tend to pronounce them differently. Very few languages don't distinguish front vowels from back vowels. English of course features very strong vowel reduction, so all unstressed vowels sound more or less the same. Foreigners are more likely to mishear occasion/equation than to mispronounce them.

Consider pairs differing in voicedness of a plosive. For example time/dime. In English, the t is aspirated, the d is voiceless or slightly voiced. If the foreigners native language has fully voiced d and unaspirated t (for example, French or Dutch), the foreigner's time may sound like dime to a native speaker. There's also bag/back. I think that phonetically the difference is mostly in the length of the vowel (but I'm no native English speaker and to me they sound pretty much the same), so this may be hard for speakers of languages with no phonemic vowel length.

Also consider pairs with similar vowels, like bit/beet. No problem for people who have those vowels in their native language, but if your native language only has 5 or 6 vowels (like Spanish or Italian), those are confusing. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:35, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

There are several languages that reguarly unvoice consonant sounds in final positions, such as all Continental West Germanic and all (?) Slavic languages (I think). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:00, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

It might not even need to be foreigners. I once met a British girl named Ella who spoke some British accent where it seemed like the vowel sounds of bAt and bEt had merged, so I thought at first she was named Alla. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:58, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

November 29

I hate modern music

I don't actually, but I don't like it as much as the music of my teen years and twenties. Is there a word for this? HiLo48 (talk) 01:58, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

If you're over 70 you have impeccable taste. Otherwise it's nostalgia. Doug butler (talk) 02:05, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Well into my 70s, so thank you. HiLo48 (talk) 02:40, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Not a new complaint by any means:[10] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:55, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Not really a complaint. I recognise that me feelings are not uncommon, across the generations, and wondered if this has been more broadly identified and even studied. HiLo48 (talk) 04:40, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

I always detested the sound of electric guitars in my youth, and I only started enjoying myself on the dance floor when techno appeared in around 1997, plus plenty of MDMA. And now Charli xcx, of course. Is there a word for this? Guess how old I'll be next week. ("Will you still need me, will you still feed me...?") MinorProphet (talk) 04:23, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

'Citharaphobia' apparently exists in the wild. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.211.243 (talk) 07:27, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

The Slate article "Musical nostalgia" mentions several studies. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:51, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

That's good.. Interestingly, it mentions Katy Perry. A choir I'm in did her song Firework a few years ago, and now her music is one modern thing I'm keen on. Getting heavily involved, like learning to sing a song properly, does seem to make a difference. I feel the topic is worth an article, but it's become such a pain to create new articles here these days, I don't think I could be bothered. HiLo48 (talk) 00:54, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Not sure why you think that. I created one just the other day, the first in quite a while because I've been involved in "other stuff", in which time all manner of rules and protocols could have changed - but it was quite painless. Did I do something wrong? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:22, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the encouragement. I'll give it a go. HiLo48 (talk) 01:54, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

I've heard the term "taste freeze", and experienced that myself some 20 or 25 years ago. --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:00, 29 November 2024 (UTC)