Talk:Dollars (film)

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In the Cast list, the links for the actor Bob Herron jump to a Robert Herron who is not the actor in the film $. 67.187.247.164 (talk) 17:29, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

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Requested move 11 December 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved (non-admin closure) JC7V (talk) 22:35, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

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$ (film) → Dollars (film) – Per WP:MOSTM. Not without precedent per [1] and this DVD release. Per the AFI: "Some contemporary sources listed the film's title as $ (Dollars), while others listed it Dollars, and the British release title was The Heist." --woodensuperman 14:54, 11 December 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Cúchullain ^t/c 16:10, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support move. Fairly clear-cut MOSTM case. ONR (talk) 17:27, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose, this long-term stable title has nothing to do with a trademark or with WP:MOSTM, it is the title of a film and not a trademark of a corporate entity. Film titles cannot be trademarked. And please list this at WikiProject Film, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:11, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Stylized symbols should not be used in article titles. Rreagan007 (talk) 07:14, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. The name of a work of art is not a stylization. Calidum 07:36, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

  But $ clearly is when the work has multiple titles and this one isn't even always rendered that way by reliable sources. This isn't really distinguishable from the contradictory ALIEN³ and ALI3N marketing for Alien 3.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:41, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment First of all I think this is a highly unusual case and I agree with the rationales behind the two "opposes" above. I concur with Randy that WP:MOSTM does not apply to this debate because we are not discussing a trademark, and I also agree with Calidum that this is not a stylization (a stylization would be something like "Dollar$"). In this case, a symbol is being used in place of a noun. If you look at the sources used in this article I would say that the COMMONNAME argument slightly favors $ (Dollars), although this is far from definitive. Also, by just comparing $ and Dollars on their own, while "$" is sometimes used on its own I have found hardly any examples that just go with "Dollars" on its own. These are the options with their relative merits and drawbacks:
  • $ (Dollars) – Seems to be the COMMONNAME as much as there is one, but it could be confused with a disambiguation term. Would someone clicking on this really expect to find a film article, or would they expect to be taken to Dollar? Also violates WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS which instructs not to use symbols in titles.
  • $ (Dollars) (film) – Eliminates the potential confusion with Dollar, but jeez, what a dog's dinner.
  • $ (film) – This would seem to be the "official" name, but we are not obliged to use it per WP:OFFICIAL. Like the previous two options, also violates WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS.
  • Dollars (film) – This is the only option that is compliant with WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS, but it is almost certainly not the COMMONNAME.

I am personally veering towards supporting the proposal, given the inherent difficulty in determining the common name. Betty Logan (talk) 14:40, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Good analysis, and I like the dog's dinner phrase (never heard that one). Yet the long-term stable title also being the official title, and that it is easily understandable and fits the other title criteria, it's $'s to donuts that leaving it as is may be the route to go. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:42, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support. symbols shouldn't be used in titles, especially not when the title is just the symbol Norschweden (talk) 00:30, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
  • But it was used, as the title of the film. And just to point out, there are 26 symbols that we use quite a bit on Wikipedia, some of which have found there way into titles (H (film), K (2002 film), Z (1969 film), etc.). Randy Kryn (talk) 01:58, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
    • ...then we have & (album) and ? (film), among others. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:51, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support Dollars (film) per previous RMs that led to Pi (film), Gangsta (manga), etc.; we've been over this before. The fact that the movie is called Dollars (not Money or Dollar Sign or anything else, other than its UK title The Heist) when said aloud, and often in writing, is close enough to a common name. Remember that WP:COMMONNAME is not one of the WP:CRITERIA at all; it's simply the first choice to select and test against those criteria and other policies and guidelines. In this case, $ doesn't really pass them, and this character can be a problem in URL strings. Using "$ (Dollars)" is not how we do titles. When the press do that, they are engaging in a form of disambiguation, giving multiple titles. But WP never disambiguates with an alternative name, only with a descriptive term; we never have an article title [at least not for long, noob errors aside] with a name like David Johansen (Buster Poindexter) or Silicon carbide (carborundum). Fixing such "two names at once" DABs is a speediable move type at WP:RM/TR. To put it another way, if the poster and DVD cover read Dollars instead of $, we would never disambiguate this as "Dollars (The Heist)".

  PS: The fact that the majority of RS mentions of this film are in the entertainment press, which is rather addicted to mimicking logo stylization (and has non-WP:INDY reasons for doing so – almost all their income is from entertainment-industry advertising money) means that results are going to be skewed in favor of $; see WP:Common-style fallacy. See related thread here, just one of many.

  PPS: MOS:TM certainly does apply; all modern mass-market films are trademarked to every extent that movie-studio lawyers can get trademarks on them. But MOS:TM isn't strictly limited to things with legal trademarks in the first place. The third sentence of the guideline's lead makes it very clear it is applicable to all conceptually similar cases.
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:41, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

• Gansta isn't a similar example (same name, just changed from all caps to single capped). Then there are many ? albums and films, and even a tv episode ? (Lost). Would you name each of those long-term stable titles "question mark"? Or & (album)? And saying this is covered in WP:TRADEMARK is really a long stretch (is '$' even something that can be trademarked?), and you could easily discuss the "other side" of that one. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:54, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

• Examples of long-term names on Wikipedia: ? (Lost) and many other albums and films named ?, & (album), etc. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:54, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
• And then check these out...: + (Ed Sheeran album) and ÷ (album). So $ is starting to look the norm rather than the exception. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:35, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
• Comment. I've just realized the soundtrack also has an article, which is at Dollar$ (soundtrack). Whatever happens here, we should probably bring the two articles in line. --woodensuperman 11:45, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.