Talk:13 (number)/Archive 1

Archive 1

13 Going on 30

HappyDog- I think you have an obbession with 13...-nameless user I reverted back to the 141.x.x.x.'s edit adding the reference to Jennifer Garner's new movie 13 Going on 30. It might be iffy whether this is relevant to the number 13, since two numbers appear in the title, but the fact that this is a major Hollywood release clinches the issue for me. PrimeFan 18:09, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

It may be a major hollywood release, but it has absolutely no relevance to the number 13. Here are 13 other movies with 13 in the title. Should they all be listed too? --HappyDog 19:13, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

• Apollo 13 (1995)
• Thir13en Ghosts (2001)
• Thirteen Conversations About One Thing (2001)
• Assault on Precinct 13 (1976)
• South Sea 13 Son (1997)
• Dementia 13 (1963)
• Ward 13 (2003)
• 13 campanadas (2002)
• 13 Ghosts (1960)
• In a Year of 13 Moons (1978)
• [[13 Rue Madeleine]] (1947)
• Operator 13 (1934)
• P-13 (2000)

source: IMDb.com

Maybe. Some of them might have more relevance to the number 13 than the Garner movie. PrimeFan 19:28, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

My point is that, aside from the movie Thirteen, none of these have relevance to an article about the number 13. If you think they should be referenced from this page, I would suggest a separate article such as Movies with 13 in the title and add that to the list on this page. --HappyDog 19:35, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

There was an extensive debate if we should include a film title at 101 and finally it was kept. Thus I don't see why we wouldn't keep 13 Going on 30. As "none" of the 13 other titles above have articles about them (I just wikified them), I wouldn't list them. If 13 in any title can be explained (and it isn't self-explanatory), this may be worth mentioning. -- User:Docu

HappyDog, it was shady of you to ask if other movies with 13 in the title should be listed on page, then interpret the lack of response to that question as a tacit approval to remove the line about the recently released movie with 13 in the title. I think that numbers in movie titles should be mentioned in movie articles, so long as the movies are from major studios, or if their indie films that gain a wide audience. ShutterBugTrekker 21:58, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Not deliberately shady. I figured if people don't care enough to respond after a week, they won't care about the change. At the very least I thought it'd open up the discussion (which it has). I had a look at the 101 article, but couldn't find any discussion about the inclusion of the film reference (which I have modified to refer to the original book). This is a different situation though. In this case the use of 101 is already a reference that is in public awareness. If you say to someone '101', they are likely to respond 'dalmations'. Similarly if you say '1984' people will respond 'Big Brother'. If you say '13', they are unlikely to respond 'going on 30'. Even if they do, do you think they still will be in a year's time? --HappyDog 22:41, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Good point about public awareness. Actually, it's quite interesting that 13 going on 30 is so titled. If you say to me 'movies with 13 in the title' I'm likely to think about horror films. Yet, here we have two movies with 13 in the title where the 13 refers to an age. What's so important about age 13? I wish someone would elaborate on that. Anton Mravcek 21:22, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

It's considered by some to be adulthood; some children's menus have "Kids twelve and under" on them, and 13 is the recommended minimum age for children to be able to see PG13 movies.

I have a question. This article says "It is said that, in Gardnerian Wicca, the ideal coven has thirteen members, evenly divided between male and female." How can this be? Thirteen is odd and cannot be "evenly divided."

HappyDog- Thirteen is a natural number, why worry about it coming up in movies...if that is the case, that you have an obbession with 13 then you need to see someone...-nameless user

Thanks for the abuse nameless user. It was mature, well-informed and very much to the point. --HappyDog 00:16, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Nameless user, that input is not needed. -Lengis

Fall of Constantinople?

Who are the "some" who find the number unlucky because Constantinople fell in 1453, and because 13 the sum of 1-4-5-3? I'd never heard this before. Is this some a group of people at a certain time in the past, or in a certain culture or country?

I agree. A lot of those entries in the "As lucky, unlucky, or significant number" looks quite similar to something written in urban legends. I removed a part that's quite strange, while 4 does sound like death in Chinese, and the Chinese do have quite a superstition about that number (a lot of hospitals here don't even have a fourth floor), as far as I know 9 sounds nothing like "suffering". It actually sounds like "for a long time", as in friendship, love, etc. I personally feel that the author of that part is trying to add "weight" to the numbers so that the "shock value" would be higher. That part about "實生" being lucky also feels strange to me, at first sight of that word I would've thought something like "實習生" (intern), and even if explained the way that part suggests I think it means more of "truly alive" rather than "must be alive". Besides, non of the people I know here thinks of the number 13 that way. I apologize for the poor English in this part, I'm not too good at it, but I do think this article can be improved drastically. Valhallia 10:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Requesting revert

Someone changed the whole article to read "porn". 88.107.74.185 12:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

13 at a table

longtime superstition: 13 seated at a table, and one will die within a year (AmericanGuru 01:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC))

TRIVIA

Fellow editors, let's try to keep people from sticking any old reference to the number 13 here. It's just plain silly. Some instances of "13" represent significant cultural notions (bad luck, good luck, spirits, etc.) but most are just coincidental or irrelevant. --Dylanfly 16:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggested MERGE: Unlucky stuff with Triskaidekaphobia

I think its redundant to have an unlucky section here AND a page called Triskaidekaphobia. Putting the unlucky notions there would help to Wikify this page. Cheers, --Dylanfly 16:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Pic of horse stalls with 12a instead of 13

Reminds me of Discworld, where 7a is used instead of 8. 83.142.184.86 01:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

bad "explanation"

"Thirteen may be considered a "bad" number simply because when a group of 13 objects or people is divided into two, three, four or six equal groups, there is always one leftover, or "unlucky", object or person."

This does not make too much sense, as all it is really saying is that 13 is prime. Other prime-numbered groupes of people would have the same problem, yet those numbers are not considered "unlucky."

That is a very good point. That line should be removed. Huw Powell (talk) 01:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Number of apostles

• The number of participants at the Last Supper.
• According to Matthew 10:2-5 there were twelve apostles, not thirteen.

I'm sorry, but what does the number of apostles have to do with the claim about the number of participants at the Last Supper? It's thrown in there in what looks like an attempt to discredit or confirm the claim, as though an editor read the first line and thought "But there were only twelve disciples!" Pairadox (talk) 05:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Pairadox. What is the point of adding the last bullet?--Buffhistorian (talk) 02:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow, talk about kind of missing the point. 12 apostles + 1 Saviour = 13, does it not? Huw Powell (talk) 01:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

LOL

I am born on da thirteen and I LOVE IT !! what does Islam think of thirteen ? are moslems superstitous ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.93.188 (talk) 02:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Skulls

Is there a good reason for the bit about the 13 crystal skulls? I can't find any references to that superstition in wp elsewhere, and it's unreferenced. Dsmouse (talk) 06:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Corel Draw also avoided number 13

Corel also avoided 13 as version number for Draw, calling it Corel Draw X3.

I never understood this. Whether you call 13th version, track, floor, gate, stall or whatever 12a or skip it, you avoid that number formally, but 13th stall will be 13th stall no matter what you label it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.101.221.32 (talk) 20:59, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

28 = 13??

I'm very unclear on why women's meunstration cycles, averaging 28 days, should have anything to do with the number 13. Can someone enlighten me on how 28 relates to 13? I suggest that paragraph, which points to a nonexistent reference, be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyranojoe (talk • contribs) 22:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

28 × 13 = 364 ≈ 365, so there are 13 meunstration cycles per year. I don't know if that helps. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I have fixed the reference, moved the paragraph to after 13 28-days period per year is mentioned, and added "(nearly 13 times a year)" to the 28-day menstruation cycle.[1] PrimeHunter (talk) 11:40, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

In other fields

In this section of the main article, others may want to review this list and check for the accuracy of certain statements. At the very least the note about Persona 3 is false (stating that 13 hours somehow makes up a full day in the game) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shint (talk • contribs) 01:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Mathematics

These guys http://netdial.caribe.net/~albertos1/PAPERS/Geometric.pdf also reckon that a torus can be cut into 14 pieces with 3 plane cuts. 198.4.83.52 (talk) 23:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

What does this discussion page have to do with Judaism

why is this page in the Judaism portal? Waky02 (talk) 14:29, 12 July 2009 (UTC) i traveled on the 13 nothing happed it was awesome o yeah lot —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.186.136.213 (talk) 03:05, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

OCD

Now, does anyone know the name of an obsession over the number thirteen? Cuz I think I have it. And just for weirdness sakes, does anybody know what adding together the sum of the digits of a number, and being able to divide that number by the sum of the digits evenly? (ex. (not this ->)(49 4+9=13 49/13=a fraction) vs (this->)2+4+7=13 247/13=19--Buffhistorian (talk) 23:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Harshad number. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, and I have decided to name (at least personally) the obsession thing to being a triskaidekaphile, although I think that is already the definition :P Buffhistorian (talk) 12:13, 7 March 2011 (UTC)Buffhistorian

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20101119/sc_space/thereallystrangestorybehindsundaysbluemoon
  • In 13 (number) on 2011-05-23 02:57:59, 404 Not Found
  • In 13 (number) on 2011-06-01 14:59:25, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 14:59, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

fixed Cormullion (talk) 15:55, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Trying to rewrite the daft Unlucky section

I suppose moving everything about "unlucky 13" from 13 to Triskaidekaphobia, or merging the latter page into this one is impossible, but would probably make sense in some ways. More than the subject matter, anyway. ;) I think all the alleged superstitions and origins should be listed somewhere on Wikipedia, though. Cormullion (talk) 16:01, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Zenith

Could I have an independent opinion please? Does anybody actually agree that this edit is useful or relevant? — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 16:11, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

In Astronomy

I added this section (see below) for the following reasons. The Suns ascension to its zenith is a very important astronomical occurance. It is represented in time keeping by the number 13 on the basis the Sun will typicaly reach its zenith in or around the 13th hour of the 24 hour period. This is a direct relationship between the cultural usage of the number 13 in regard to timekeeping and the Suns astronomical movement. I believe this to be a worthy addition to a page which deals with usages of 13 other than the strictly mathematical. Further I stated that the Sun would reach its zenith at precisely (as is reasonable) 13:00 on 21st June 2011 the Summer Solstice in London. Again a fundamentally important astronomical event on a fundamentally important astronomical date being directly represented by the number 13:00 by the most prominent timekeeping system in the world. For these reasons I added the section. In terms of the verifiable source Sunposition.info I regard this as being a very acceptable and accurate source. I can also provide a image of the 21st June 2011 13:00 graph results for which I have been provided copyright usage such that is completely in line with Wikipedias copyright criteria.

Original contribution: 'The 13th hour of the day is typically the hour during which the sun reaches its zenith in its ascent. At approximately 13.00 on the summer solstice of 21st June the sun reaches its zenith as viewed by London, England.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by RickyBennison (talk • contribs) 14:27, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

References

• OK, so can we please have a reference to a reliable source that thinks the same thing? Please, also agree with me that: a) the "most prominent timekeeping system in the world" is GMT or, as some people insist on calling it, UTC; b) on June 21 the sun seen from Greenwich reaches its highest elevation at 12:00 GMT and c) throughout the world the sun is at its highest elevation at 12:00 local solar tme. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 16:39, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

• June 21st is BST so the time when the Sun is at its zenith is 13:00 viewed by London. RickyBennison (talk) 18:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Stripes

I remember reading somewhere that when the 14th state joined the Union, they added a stripe to the flag as well as a star. But after the 17th state, the idea was dropped and the number of stripes was frozen at 13. -- Anonymous User

Actually, they changed the flag to 15 stars and 15 stripes. I'm sure it would be mentioned in the relevant article. AnonMoos 21:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I think this article should mention the 13 stripes, 13 colonies etc. Maybe other countries also have significant 13s too. --Kaleb Grace (talk) 10:44, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

The hangman's noose

Might reconsider the tag, as the article of the Hangman's knot stated the same, it may not be properly referenced, but the references are there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.24.74.61 (talk) 14:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Bakers Dozen

The definations of teenage years and the baker's dozen are not trivial edits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dozen

174.22.11.59 (talk) 03:57, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Teenage is trivial, and Baker's dozen had appeared in the article, enough so that it should be placed under "lucky 13" (or perhaps "unlucky 12") rather than "baking". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:51, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

13 in a coven, evenly divided between male and female?

How is this possible? Will revise out if no objections. Chrisvls 18:56, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• • I believe it is because the coven consists of 1 leader and 12 followers (12 disciples anyone?). Fairly sure about this (at least in essence, i.e. 12 + 1), but can't cite sources save The Illuminatus Trilogy which is hardly authoratitive :) --HappyDog 17:26, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• • Thanks! But, whaddya think we should do? I can't tell if you are uncertain enough to add the new info. We should either delete the sentence or say something like: "In modern day Wicca, thirteen is considered the maximum size of a coven, and in some traditions the ideal number of members. It is said that, in Gardnerian Wicca, the ideal coven has thirteen members, with one leader and twelve followers, evenly divided between male and female." But, since I don't know this stuff, I can't really add it myself and would just delete it. So, I'll restart the slow clock. If you or someone else doesn't add it to the page, then I'll remove it. Thanks! Chrisvls 18:54, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• • Yeah - I'm not certain enough to add it myself, unless it can be corroborated in some way. If I get some time I might do some research, but to be honest that's fairly unlikely. --HappyDog 00:13, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• • It's actually a bit of a joke. Making fun of Gardnerian Covens. Over emphasis on rules, so that thirteen is the ideal number, while another rule says that covens should be evenly divided between male and female. And suggesting that Gardnerian witches accept this contradiction. Or that you can have a Gardnerian Witch so balanced that they are both male ``and`` female. Anyway, it's pure humor and has no place on Wikipedia. I've removed the reference. Sorry. Ziroby 22:39, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

• • But, everybody who has read Pratchett knows that a coven has 3 witches, not 13. If there were only two witches or even one, there'd be none to make tea for the older ones, and if there were more than three, there'd be endless fighting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.192.2.193 (talk) 14:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

4.4.1 Coperos

This (very small) section makes no sense whatsoever, to me at least. It needs rewriting.

Text seems to have come from here: http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-10-12/science-of-spirituality/30270233_1_full-moons-tarot-readings

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lesonyrra (talk • contribs) 20:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC) 

Baker's dozen

A reference to the Baker's dozen should be included. 174.22.13.162 (talk) 16:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

13 as the Ides

The ides of March, the day that Julius Ceaser was famously killed on, has reason to be considered unlucky, especially because of William Shakespeare's 'Julius Ceaser.' The ides of March fall on the 15th (The ides of May, July, and October also fall on the 15th) but the other eight months have ides that fall on the 13th. Could the superstition surrounding the ides of March have moved to the 13th as a result of most other ides being on the 13th? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.88.247 (talk) 20:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC) Caesar, and no. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kortoso (talk • contribs) 21:57, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Baker's Dozen

The Baker's Dozen is defined as 13 or 14.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/Bakers%20dozen.html

13 is considered the year a person becomes a teenager.

174.22.14.81 (talk) 11:16, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Pointless Trivia

Many Wikipedia pages devolve into lists of pointless trivia, but this has to be one of the worst. There are entire sections which amount to nothing but culling any reference to the number 13, from any source imaginable. The "Music" section is particularly bad. 76.111.27.52 (talk) 08:07, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:13 (number)/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Please add information to "Lucky 13" about why 13 is considered lucky in Latin America. You will note that virtually all (and there are very few) athletes who wear number 13 on their jerseys are Latin American.

Last edited at 08:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 19:42, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Template:Superstitions ??

The template seems to have a very low bar for inclusion. I'm considering removing it from this page. Any comments? Power~enwiki (talk) 06:37, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

24 hour clock

Seems trivial to me:

• Why is this more significant than size 13 shoe (US mens and womens sizes only; UK and European sizes seem to be quasi-metric)
• Why not all the other numbers 0 through 23? Why not references to the 12-hour clock for 1 through 12?

This would be part of a pattern, which (I believe) should be dropped from all numbers. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:09, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

• Notified WP:WikiProject Numbers. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:17, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
• @RickyBennison: — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:19, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

One reason it is more significant than shoe size is because the number is prominently displayed on time keeping devices and, as such, has a keenly emphasized cultural value. I believe this demonstrates an important way in which the number is used. Both in terms of its numerical value and its visual significance. As the section is stating religious and cultural uses of the number 13 I think it fits in well.

I see no reason why the same should not also be said on other number pages (i.e.1-24, or 1-60). The usage of these numbers specifically in time keeping, and their prominent display on time keeping devices, is after all a very significant usage of them and one which demonstrates mass cultural influence. RickyBennison (talk) 15:50, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Seems trivial to me too. There is no special significance of 13, or any other number apart from 24 in the context of a 24 hour clock. Numbers appear in all sorts of contexts where you count things, whether hours and minutes on a clock, days or weeks on a calendar. But only the total number is significant, such as the number of weeks in a year, not every week’s number up to it.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 16:17, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Remove. 13 is marginally more significant than (say) 14 by being the first hour not present on a 12-hour clock, but I don't think that's enough to trouble the reader with an entry on this page. Certes (talk) 16:28, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Bingo names -

Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numbers#List of British bingo nicknames for a centralized discusion as to whether Bingo names should be included in thiese articles. Arthur Rubin (alternate) (talk) 23:33, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Jesus Christ was crucified on Wednesday Nissan 13. When the Council of Nicaea met in 325 AD the Bishops moved the crucifixion from Wednesday to Friday. The superstition moved with it to Friday the 13th.

Holy Week Timeline: From Palm Sunday to the Resurrection

Mark 7:13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Day 1: Sunday Nissan 10:Triumphal Entry Mt 21.1-9 on Palm Sunday, Exodus 12.3. Last Supper in the Upper Room; 1 Corinthians 11.23, Matthew 26.17, to fulfill Holy Convocation Exodus 12.16, established Sunday as day of worship. Jesus became sin for us by taking the cup, Mt 26.39 Jesus arrested at Garden of Gethsemane Mk 14.22-42, Day 2:Monday Nissan 11: Examined by Anna’s, Trail by Caiaphas, Mk 14.43-52, Psalm 88 cry from the pit Day 3:Tuesday Nissan 12, condemned by the council, first trial before Pilate, brought before Herod, Mk 15.1-5 Day 4:Wednesday Nissan 13: Day of preparation, John 19.14, Second appearance before Pilate, Jesus Crucified Mk 15.15-26 Day 5:Thursday Nissan 14, High Sabbath Day. Leviticus 23:5 On the fourteenth dayof the first month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover(Jesus is the Lamb of God). Day 6:Friday Nissan 15, High Sabbath Day. Leviticus 23.6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord(Jesus is the sin remover); Baptism of the Dead, 1 Corinthians 15:29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? Jesus washed away sin and blood of bulls and goats with His own blood (Revelation 1.5)of all those in the Bosom of Abraham. Day 7:Saturday Nissan 16, Sabbath Day, Holy Convocation Exodus 12.16, He Entered hell: Colossians 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. Jesus gets keys of death and hell; Revelation 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Day 8 Sunday Nissan 17, First Day of First Fruits, Leviticus 23.9-14. Jesus raised from the dead Mk 16.1-13. Jesus ascends to heaven taking with Him everyone in the Bosom of Abraham and presents them as a First Fruits offering before the Father, 1 Corinthians 15.20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. Thunderous party breaks out in the Throne room of God, Hebrews 12.2! Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth Colosians2.15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. Matthew 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Dividing line between Old Covenant and New Covenant Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

7 Days: Lamb of God examined 4 days. Exodus 12.6 Jesus in the heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights Mt 12.40

Before the cross John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Luke 23.43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

After the cross 2 Corinthians 5.8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ” William Ewings (talk) 14:26, 16 September 2023 (UTC)