Talk:1901 Boston Marathon

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 01:12, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

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Ronald McDonald

• ... that Ronald McDonald (pictured) was allegedly drugged with chloroform during the 1901 Boston Marathon, sabotaging his race? Source: DRUGGED IN MARATHON RACE, RUNNER SAYS HE WAS DRUGGED
  • ALT1: ... that a young man with "bad odor" entered behind the 1901 Boston Marathon leader just before the finish, fooling the thousands of spectators? Source: PEERLESS RUNNER. Continued from the First Page

Mounted police clearing the way at the 1901 Boston Marathon

• • ALT2: ... that hundreds of bicyclists, automobiles, motor carriages, equipages, equestrians and children flooded the 1901 Boston Marathon streets, forcing runners to detour? Source: PEERLESS RUNNER. Continued from the First Page
  • Reviewed:
  • Comment: The third hook may be used with this drawing of the race: File:1901 Boston Marathon graphic (mounted police clearing the way through crowd).jpg. Open to any improvements, thanks!

Created by Habst (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Habst (talk) 20:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC).

• I'll review this. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Nice work @Habst:. The only issue is that there needs to be a citation at the end of the following paragraph: As the race advanced through Framingham and Natick, Hughson had built up a lead but was still closely tailed by Caffrey. 45 minutes in, Hughson passed the Natick town hall about 100 yards (91 m) ahead of Caffrey. McDonald at this point was 75 yards (69 m) behind Caffrey, and Sammy Mellor and Davis were running in fourth and fifth 1⁄3 mile (0.54 km) behind McDonald. (Every paragraph needs to have a citation for DYK). BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11,  Done the citation, thank you. --Habst (talk) 12:23, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Good to go, BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Habst ALT1 is ineligible, as the source does not say that the young man had "bad odor", but rather that he "would have been in bad odor [i.e. in a pickle] had the officials unearthed him". You'll want to correct the article too. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:20, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29, thank you so much for the info, I have struck ALT1 and corrected the article. Thanks for teaching me about in bad odor as well. --Habst (talk) 19:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Discrepancy?

Cool article ~ fascinating. A possible discrepancy, though, that i can't correct because i'm not sure of the facts: Is there one man Caffrey, or are there two? He is called (and wlinked) John P. Caffrey in the lead, then a John J. Caffrey takes an early lead, then Caffrey runs all through, until a quote from the Buffalo Courier calls him J. J. Caffrey and the picture from the Boston Globe by that quote calls him John J. Caffrey again. If he's one man, the initials need to be cleared up, if there were two of them that needs to be clearer. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 05:25, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

@LindsayH, thanks for pointing this out. All those names should refer to one person. Based on the article Jack Caffery (runner), it appears his name is John Peter Caffery but he went by Jack Caffrey. That would make sense with all of the listed names except for "J. J. Caffery", which I suspect is a mistake because the Buffalo Courier spelled his surname incorrectly as well. His last name seems to be spelled variously "Caffrey" and "Caffery".

I've changed all names to refer to "Jack Caffery", his Wikipedia name, in the mean time. --Habst (talk) 12:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:1901 Boston Marathon/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Habst (talk · contribs) 22:35, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 00:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

• For File:MacDonald-Evan Nappen,Esq. Collection.jpg, what is the source? It says "Beckford Photo 1898" but I don't know what that means. If it was published in 1898 it should have a "PD-US-expired" tag like the other photos, but it has a tag implying it was released into the public domain, which in turn implies and was not published at that time.
• What makes arrs.run a reliable source? Per this page it's volunteer-run; does it get treated as reliable by other reliable sources, such as newspapers or race organizations?
• Similarly, what makes athleticspodium.com a reliable source? Per this page it looks like it's a one-man operation, and he says he sometimes gets his results from Wikipedia, which is not a good sign.

I'll do spotchecks next, probably later today. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

@Mike Christie, thanks for doing this review.

• I have updated the tag of File:MacDonald-Evan Nappen,Esq. Collection.jpg to say that its copyright has expired because according to the description it was published in 1898.
• I think that Association of Road Racing Statisticians is a reliable source because it's been cited by other organizations like the Chicago Tribune, Runner's World, and AP News, as well as many others according to this search: "according to the association of road racing statisticians".
• Athletics Podium is a newer endeavor, but I think its recap of the 1901 Boston Marathon is still suitable for sourcing. Also I read the line about Wikipedia in the "About" page differently. The sentence is It’s really hard to find proper information, even from the official websites or Wikipedia, which is the ‘shortest way’ to have results. and the context is it's in a paragraph justifying the existence of the site – it never says that data is sourced from Wikipedia, in fact it says the opposite, that Wikipedia is a bad source for results and that's why he made the website. It's created by the Turkish sports journalist Şevket Furkan Erbay who has worked at several different traditional media outlets in the past to establish his credibility. It's also not a one-man operation as there are at least five editors and two verifiers according to the list of contributors.

I'll go through the spot checks next, thanks again for your thorough review. --Habst (talk) 14:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Spotchecks. Footnotes refer to this version.

• FN 1 cites "There was little course control, as according to the Globe "hundreds" of bicyclists tailed the leading runners encumbered by automobiles, motor carriages, equipages, equestrians and children." The source has "While hundreds of bicyclists followed the runners up to this point the "gallery" was greatly augmented by automobiles, motor carriages, stylish equipages, equestrians and youngsters". This is too closely paraphrased; see WP:CLOP. I think just making it "cars, horses, and children" would be enough.
  •  Done in Special:Diff/1233196267, thanks. --Habst (talk) 20:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
• FN 1 cites "Davis began to speed up, taking advantage of an incline on Cedar Street in West Newton to pass Crimmins and eventually Hughson." Verified.
• FN 8 cites "Being a member of the Mohawk people, William Davis was the first indigenous American to medal at a Boston Marathon, finishing second behind his countryman Caffery. He went on to coach Tom Longboat, winner of the 1908 Boston Marathon." Verified.
• FN 4 cites "Walter C. Kelly wrote in the Buffalo Courier, "The Marathon race of 1901 is a thing of the past. Like many other athletic events, it will now take its place in the annals of the athletic almanac. It will be forgotten, as athletic events are, but the performance of J. J. Caffery [sic] will long be remembered by the racing enthusiasts who long to see the runners reel off mile after mile until they have covered the quarter of a century"." Verified.
• FN 1 cites "The race dynamic began to shift as the runners approached Wellesley. Caffery made his move and overtook Hughson on the Wellsley Hills steep incline. At this point a horse became frightened and ran into the street ahead of the runners, but a bicyclist grabbed the bridles and was able to stop the horse before any runners were injured" Verified.
• FN 6 cites "With about five miles remaining, 1898 Boston Marathon champion Ronald MacDonald was about 90 seconds behind leader Jack Caffery, a distance which MacDonald thought he could easily make up. However, MacDonald began to tire after dabbing himself with what he thought was a water sponge, which he received from his brother via a mobile canteen driven by a bicycle rider." Verified.

After the first one came up with a minor issue I decided to check half a dozen to be on the safe side. They all came up clean, so once the close paraphrasing for the first one is first the spotcheck is passed.

I'll read through and add further comments, probably later today. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Comments:

• "though it was since retroactively measured": I think "retroactively" is redundant; how about just "it has since been measured"?
  •  Done in Special:Diff/1233196991 --Habst (talk) 20:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
• "improving his course record from last year by a further 10 minutes": suggest "previous year".
  •  Done in Special:Diff/1233197143 --Habst (talk) 20:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
• "His accompaniment William Davis, a Mohawk Canadian": not sure what the right word is here but I don't think it's "accompaniment". Do you just mean "friend"? There's no mention in the body of the article of an acquaintance between Caffery and Davis. Or do you mean "compatriot"?
  • I meant "compatriot",  Done in Special:Diff/1233197392 --Habst (talk) 20:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
• "finished runner-up as Sammy Mellor finished third": "and Sammy" might be better, since "as" implies the two things were simultaneous.
  •  Done in Special:Diff/1233197546 --Habst (talk) 20:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
• "C. Crimmins tailed in third place": we've introduced Crimmins so I think we can drop the initial; and do you mean "trailed"?
  • I did mean "trailed",  Done in Special:Diff/1233197764 --Habst (talk) 20:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
• "Caffery made his move and overtook Hughson": does "made his move" tell us anything that "Caffery overtook Hughson" doesn't?
  • I don't think it does, so I removed "made his move",  Done in Special:Diff/1233197978 --Habst (talk) 20:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
• "The pills had the opposite effect": but it appears it was the chloroform that had the negative effect, not the pills? Maybe "appeared to have the opposite effect"?
  • I changed it to "appeared to have the opposite effect",  Done in Special:Diff/1233198220 --Habst (talk) 20:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
• Why are the citations in two of the rows in the table at the end? It's not a problem, but I just wanted to check that the rest of the table is covered by the three citations at the top.
  • The reason why there are only inline citations in John Vrazanis and Fred W. Hughson's rows is because their participation is attested in the inline cites, but not in the general three citations right before the table. All the data in the table is covered by either the inline cites or the three "general" cites. --Habst (talk) 20:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

That's everything. OK on the source questions per your comments above -- I think there might be more questions if you were to take this to FAC, but for GA I think they're fine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:52, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

@Mike Christie, thank you for the helpful review. I've addressed all the above spot-checks and comments. --Habst (talk) 20:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Fixes look good; passing. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Route

Could a section about the route be added to this article? This seems like basic information required for GA class. (@Mike Christie @Habst) – Editør (talk) 08:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The route is described in passing as part of the race description, but if there's enough information to make a separate route section, then yes, that's a good idea. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion this is alright for a C class article, but not for a GA class article. – Editør (talk) 11:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

And I have made this known previously. – Editør (talk) 11:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Is there enough information about the route for a more detailed discussion? Or does the article already include what is known? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Valid questions that should have been asked and answered during the GA review. – Editør (talk) 11:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Editør, I fully agree with your concerns on my talk page and I apologize for not addressing them earlier. I wasn't able to find a course map, only the approximate distance (per ARRS) and a series of landmarks passed per contemporary news reports. That being said, I think a map could be reverse engineered. I also agree with adding a background section, explaining as you alluded to the fact that women were barred until 1967. I'll work on those today. --Habst (talk) 11:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Editør, yes, if I'd thought about the question of whether more information was available about the route, I would have asked that question during the review. Habst, I would be a bit concerned about reverse engineering a full route map, since I think it would be hard to ensure it was accurate along the whole length of the course. If you can source it fully, that would be great; otherwise, how about just a map showing the points identified as being along the route? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@Mike Christie @Editør, I've found a complete description of the route from the Boston Evening Transcript; I created a new "Background" section and included that (published in 1901) in full for now. It seems thorough enough that a map could be made of it, but I'm not sure I should be the one to do that as I'm not so familiar with Boston geography at that time. --Habst (talk) 15:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into this. There are fewer competitors listed in the Results section than in the 1901 news article, so I was curious what the selection was based on. – Editør (talk) 20:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The route description should probably share source reference #9. I'm not sure the route works in this quoted form, it would probably benefit from paraphrasing, explaining, and linking. The starting point is the bridge over the Sudbury River on Pleasant Street. [1] This is indeed about a mile from Central House, which used to be a hotel at the corner of Main Street and Front Street. [2] Both bridge and hotel are north of the Boston and Albany Railroad, from there the marathon seems to more or less have followed the tracks on the south side through the named towns. In Newton Lower Falls, there is a Washington Street that ends up crossing Commonwealth Avenue in Newton, Massachusetts, the latter road passes the Chestnut Hill Reservoir, where you find Beacon Street that crosses again with Commonwealth Avenue at Kenmore Square. The Commonwealth Avenue then crosses Back Bay Fens which is mostly on the right. The abbreviation B.A.A. is mentioned twice in the article (also in the footnote) but it is not explained that it means Boston Athletic Association, which indeed had its clubhouse on Exeter Street. [3] – Editør (talk) 06:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Was the B.A.A. the organizer of the event? – Editør (talk) 06:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@Editør, thanks for your great help.

There are fewer competitors listed in the Results section than in the 1901 news article, so I was curious what the selection was based on -- Yes, it seems like times and positions were only officially recorded for the top eight as only those places received prizes. The other four people listed in the Results table are only there because I found direct proof that they started the race – there were definitely other starters, per the starting line photo showing dozens of people, but I wasn't able to verify or even guess their names.

The route description should probably share source reference #9. I'm not sure the route works in this quoted form, it would probably benefit from paraphrasing, explaining, and linking. -- The reference is  Done, thanks. That was some great work on understanding the map. I hope you don't mind I've posted a link to WP:Requested maps here so hopefully we can get an image made to further explain it.

Was the B.A.A. the organizer of the event? -- Yes, to my knowledge the B.A.A. has organized every Boston Marathon since the first one, when it was called the "Boston Athletic Association race". --Habst (talk) 12:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The route description isn't very precise about the middle part through the towns, so maybe that part of the route should have a dashed line instead of a continuous line when a map is created.

Could you explain the B.A.A. abbreviation and add the organizer (with source) in the article? – Editør (talk) 12:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh and this map shows the location of the great signboards (towards the bottom right) together with Washington Street in Newton. – Editør (talk) 12:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Could you explain the B.A.A. abbreviation and add the organizer (with source) in the article? --  Done in the lede, thanks. Re: the other two notes about the route, they are helpful, I linked this thread in the map request so that those things can be noted. Thanks, --Habst (talk) 14:35, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Additional comments

Some other things you might want to look at:

• The first sentence shouldn't have a bold link per MOS:LEADSENTENCE
  •  Done in Special:Diff/1233564147 --Habst (talk)
• The infobox title should probably also not have a bold link
  •  Done in Special:Diff/1233564147 --Habst (talk)
• The first sentence could be more precise about the location (not just "in Boston")
  •  Done in Special:Diff/1233564147 --Habst (talk)
• Images need alt texts per MOS:ALT
  •  Done in Special:Diff/1233565340 --Habst (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• The times don't have units anywhere
  •  Done in all prose sections in Special:Diff/1233565841 --Habst (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• Why is Patriots' Day mentioned in the infobox, is this relevant? Not discussed anywhere else
  •  Done removed in Special:Diff/1233566121 --Habst (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• Shouldn't the winning time be mentioned in the lead?
  •  Done in Special:Diff/1233565841 --Habst (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

– Editør (talk) 16:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@Editør, thank you for this helpful feedback, I responded in-line. --Habst (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at these things. – Editør (talk) 20:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Some other things:

• It is my understanding that a lead section should be a summary of the article, and for that reason doesn't need source references most of the time. However in this case some elements in the lead are not mentioned elsewhere without obvious reason.
• The article uses three date formats (9 July 2024 / April 19, 1901 / 2024-04-13), maybe choose one?
• Source reference #20 is missing some basic information
• The residence column in the Results table is a mix of US states and countries and a people, I think all rows should have the same level of precision when possible, unless there is a good reason to not do that
• I am not convinced that the current sectioning of the article makes the most sense, a section named 'The race' in an article about this race seems to lack focus. I would like to propose a new structure although I'm sure there are alternative solutions:
  1. Lead
  2. Background (add organizer and info about women competitors)
  3. Route (merge quote from Background and route info from The race)
  4. Results (merge Results section and race description from The race)
  5. Poisoning allegations
  6. Legacy
  7. Notes
  8. References

– Editør (talk) 17:19, 10 July 2024 (UTC)