Talk:2016 St. Cloud, Minnesota knife attack

Duplicate article exists

Note 2016 Minnesota knife attack Mapsax (talk) 14:10, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedy deleted as being recently created, having no relevant page history and duplicating an existing English Wikipedia topic, because... (your reason here) --E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:30, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

• keep. notable attack.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:30, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is an obviously notable attack. Also, the duplicate article 2016 Minnesota knife attack should be the one deleted. Evking22 (talk) 14:40, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

My article can get deleted. I'm sorry for not noticing the existing article. JBergsma1 (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2016 (UTC) JBergsma1 (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

This title is more specific and 2016 Minnesota knife attack currently redirects here. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:20, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Born in Africa?

I disagree with the inclusion of trivia such as the continent of birth of the alleged perpetrator. See [1] for example of the text at issue. If we include that, we'd need to include other contextual info such as how long he's lived in the USA. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:00, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

So, we have the most important newspaper in MN, namely the Star Tribune, reporting that the terrorist was born in Africa; and this keeps getting deleted. Why? Since when are WP:RS to be censored out only because one feels the info may not be important? If I feel it is not important that Einstein was born in Germany, do I get to delete this fact from his bio only because I don't think it is important, even though the WP:RS emphasise the fact? XavierItzm (talk) 22:16, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Just because we have something sourced doesn't mean we have to include it. This article is about the stabbing, not the perpetrator. Where he was born is not related to the stabbing (yet) EvergreenFir (talk) 22:18, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I too fail to see the relevance of him being born in Africa at this moment. Parsley Man (talk) 22:20, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree, plus the police have not released any information about the perpetrator. The media is only piggy backing off of other sources within the Somali community. I'm sure it was him as the media has suggested but until we get any official confirmation from the St. Cloud PD we need to tread lightly on this. JayJay^{What did I do?} 22:22, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

• Keep this info in the article. The perps family has confirmed his identity to the Star Triibune. and the Somali community has made statements confirming the perp's identity (published in the Mineapolis and St. Cloud papers) , so it is irrelvant that the police have not confirmed his identity. (the police chief has a tough job, and I don't doubt that he has reasons of his own for not confirming) but we have excellent RS. Back to the birthplace issue, OF COURSE the perp's birthplace is notable; the Star Tribune says so.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:29, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Just because WP:RS is covering the attacker's birthplace in great detail doesn't exactly equate to notability. As EvergreenFir has said, the article is about the stabbing and not just the perpetrator. Where the perpetrator was born and which community he belonged to currently has no decisive role in this event right now, as far as the sources go. Parsley Man (talk) 22:34, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

• Keep. Multiple WP:RS consider this relevant and are cited in the article. XavierItzm (talk) 22:33, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
• Omit Irrelevant to the article at the moment. We already mention his ethnicity. Continent of birth (not even the country mind you) is not relevant here. Frankly is has the appearance of dog-whistling. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:37, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
• Omit for the reasons expressed by EvergreenFir. General Ization ^Talk 22:41, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Should add that WP:RS The Associated Press, and Agency France Presse are also now citing this "irrelevant" fact. XavierItzm (talk) 22:43, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to repeat myself here, just because WP:RS is covering the attacker's birthplace in great detail doesn't exactly equate to notability. As EvergreenFir has said, the article is about the stabbing and not just the perpetrator. Where the perpetrator was born and which community he belonged to currently has no decisive role in this event right now, as far as the sources go. Parsley Man (talk) 22:46, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

None of the above are encyclopedias. General Ization ^Talk 22:47, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

• Keep Basic information about the perpetrator. Also, what would be wrong about "info such as how long he's lived in the USA"? Isn't it of relevance to know how long the perpetrator was in America before they decided to go around stabbing people? Zaostao (talk) 22:47, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

15 years, if you curious. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:49, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

• Omit for reasons I've already stated twice. Parsley Man (talk) 22:58, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
• @Mapsax, Evking22, and JBergsma1: as editors who have been active on this talk page, although not yet in this discussion.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:23, 19 September 2016 (UTC)@Tigercompanion25, Corn Cheese, Lugnuts, Fundude99, and Kaldari: editors active on page.@Corn cheese:E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:27, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

• Keep Useful information about the perpetrator and gives a broader description about who the perpetrator was.JBergsma1 (talk) 00:32, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

• Keep Factual, relevant, non-controversial. We reflect the consensus of reliable sources. James J. Lambden (talk) 01:11, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Islamic terrorism

Perpetrator swore allegiance to allah, ISIS claims the attack, newspapers are reporting it as islamic terrorism. Why not categorize it as such? Juno (talk) 00:42, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Investigation is still ongoing, and no one has explicitly mentioned it is a terrorist attack, only that it is being investigated if it is one. Even the police chief is very wary about calling this terrorism. Parsley Man (talk) 00:53, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Agree. Investigators have not called it terrorism yet. Newspapers are also mentioning that ISIL will claim a hard sneeze if they think it will help them. We know that historically media outlets have claimed terrorism and have been wrong frequently in the past. We need to be patient and prudent. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:55, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

In the not dissimilar University of California, Merced stabbing attack. it took months until the FBI completed its investigation and we entered "terrorism" into the article. We do need to use careful language until more facts - and clarity - emerges. E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:58, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

• @Juno: sorry, I must have missed the news reports that he had "sworn allegiance to ISIS". If we have that in RS, then of course we add it to article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:37, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't see any RS saying this. Only angrypatriotmovement dot com. EvergreenFir (talk) 16:47, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

EverreenFir, you read strange sources, or perhaps mereley happened to search on the wrong keyword. Many sources do exist, but what they point to it the fact that ISIL does not claim attackers indiscriminately, rather, they have reliably claimed specifically those individuals who proclaim allegiance to the Islamic State, and only those individuals. Multiple RS assert that the attackers social media accounts are now being searched for such a pledge. We can add this info to the article, with careful wording.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:00, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

You're saying we can add (with citations of reliable sources) that "the attacker's social media accounts are being searched for a pledge to ISIS"? Because I presume that is what the RS are saying at this time -- not that authorities have found such a pledge. General Ization ^Talk 19:20, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, provided that the phrasing is carefully parsed and the sourcing reliable.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:15, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Here: [2] is the Star Tribune's reliable and interesting account. There are others.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:18, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Interesting. Might have been my Google-Fu. I searched "allegiance ISIL Minnesota stabbing" and a few alterations to that. Saw that ISIL claimed it but no one was saying he pledged to them. Only reports that he mentioned Allah and asked someone if they were Muslim. I agree with you that we need to be very cautious in how we word things though. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:21, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Category

2016 Minnesota mall stabbing already being in Category:Attacks in the United States in 2016 so I think it should not in Category:2016 crimes in the United States. Newone (talk) 03:38, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

New category?

While recognizing the common American fear of being labelled discriminatory on racial or other grounds, would not a new category allowing easy examination of Islam-related incidents in the United States be useful to many of us readers? I for one can no longer remember all the deadly incidents that have occurred in this century, let alone such incidents (as this) in which no victim died; yet the study of these incidents interests me, and an easily accessible index to the incidents would help. Firstorm (talk) 22:52, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Firstorm, I doubt that the powers of political correctness here at WP would allow it, but maybe you should try adding the category (if it does not exist) and adding it to each case, as suitable. Best, XavierItzm (talk)

I don't think this is the right place to discuss the creation of such a category. I'd suggest posting the proposal on the Village pump and then notifying Wikiproject Islam and Wikiproject Terrorism. ^Falling_Gravity 21:37, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Also appears to go against WP:CATDEF. The religion of the shooter isn't a defining characteristic here and trying to frame it as one is counter to sources. Similarly we don't have a category for white male shooters or Christian ones. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:00, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, XavierItzm; you likely are accurate in your opinion. As for EvergreenFir's implicit suggestion, I'd be in favor of whatever category would aid the reader (or researcher, if any) who frequents these pages. If religious beliefs, however mistaken, inspire the terrorist actions, categories should be created to aggregate those actions; and most of recent terrorism in the West has been by men who proclaim that they act in the name of their religion: religion is indeed a defining characteristic of such terrorism. Firstorm (talk) 16:06, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

@Firstorm: We have zero evidence here that this was "inspired by religion". I'll also point to WP:EGRS as a major issue here. Trying to make your own links between events and individuals without reliable source support is not okay. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:03, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

EvergreenFir, our article itself states, with citation of sources, "The FBI began investigating the stabbing as a possible act of terrorism.... Reports said the attacker made references to Allah and asked at least one person if they [sic] were Muslim.[4][5][6][7]" That is the link you seek. Firstorm (talk) 05:33, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Redirect categorisation

The redirect Dahir A. Adan, which points to this article, is in Category:African Americans shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States. At CfD recently there was a consensus to move some articles in that category to a new category, Category:African people shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States. For categorisation purposes is Adan, who was born in Africa but became a U.S. citizen, an African American, an African person, or both? – Arms & Hearts (talk) 16:49, 18 October 2021 (UTC)