Talk:2018 Chemnitz protests

Preliminary details

Two young women went to theire cars at 3 am. They where appoached from a group of young african mans und cried for help in the street Brückenstraße. A 35 year old german with cuban ancestors (Caniel H., carpenter, 3 children, maried, his father lived since the 1990th in Germany) came to help them and was stabbed 25 times, he died in the hospital. Two other Germans (with russian ancestors, Russlanddeutsche) came to help him and where also stabbed. Whether one of them also died in hospitel is still disputed. [1] The "cuban" was in a footbal fan club. This club called for a bis demonstration in Chemnitz. German press focuses only on there "violent" demonstration. --Thirunavukkarasye-Raveendran (talk) 17:57, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Thirunavukkarasye-Raveendran Do you have sources for this information? Also I wonder if any politician has condemned the stabbing attack? BBC only mentions that Merkel condemned the violence in conjunction with the demonstration later in the day. All the best, AadaamS (talk) 20:08, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

What sources do you expect? (Hint: There is even no article in the german Wikipedia about this "minor" incident.) (It was a carnage: „…Demnach wollten die Flüchtlinge den Deutschen regelrecht schlachten. Nach drei bis vier Messerstichen sei der Deutsche zusammengesackt. Er lag dann am Boden, blutend und vor Schmerzen schreiend. Dann hätten die Flüchtlinge wie im Blutrausch auf das am Boden liegende Opfer zu zweit eingestochen, über 25 Mal, bis Passanten auftauchten und sie flüchten mußten. Die Bauchdecke war so zerstochen, dass sich Hautlappen gelöst hatten und die inneren Organe freilagen. Das sind Tiere, die Spaß am Töten haben!“). Same time, other city, this time fortunaely no death tolls: [2]. The recently murdered doctor in Offenburg is almost forgotten. You cant stay informed of all these isolated "incidents". Every week new victims and death by "man", "knife" and sometimes by "car". --Thirunavukkarasye-Raveendran (talk) 20:46, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Fake-News here. --Petruz (talk) 14:10, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Why "attack"

? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petruz (talk • contribs) 14:21, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

I used this because it is the common naming of such events in English WP.--Greywin (talk) 14:59, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

it was no attack. --Petruz (talk) 20:16, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

What are you claiming it was? Jim Michael (talk) 00:40, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

2018 Chemnitz protests archive

The page 2018 Chemnitz protests has been merged into this page. View last edit|talk page. Kingsif (talk) 14:43, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the proper merging and much better description of the protests.--Greywin (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 28 August 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved to 2018 Chemnitz violence but it may be worth another RM to 2018 Chemnitz protests L293D (☎ • ✎) 18:21, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

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2018 Chemnitz stabbing attack → 2018 Chemnitz violence – "2018 Chemnitz stabbing attack"→"2018 Chemnitz violence". The page includes details of what could be called two events: 1. a stabbing attack of unprovoked violence that caused a small riot, 2. a series of large anti-immigration protests and anti-fascist protests in response. Any name that better incorporates both events, rather than referring to one and suggesting the other is a side effect, would be preferred. Kingsif (talk) 15:55, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support: I might have preferred "protests" or "incident", but this title seems to cover everything. As you rightly say, the protests are of greater significance than the stabbing. Deb (talk) 16:11, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support, although I would prefer "protests" or "riots". --slg (talk) 18:13, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
• Weak oppose: Violence is too broad, protests could be more descriptive. --MarioGom (talk) 18:22, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per MarioGom's viewpoint. Joel.Miles925 (talk) 14:48, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose The title would be wrong - how high is the percentage of protesters that used violence? I think it is very small. Protest is not violence, it is the constitutional right of every citizen in Germany. But "2018 Chemnitz protests" would leave out the deadly crime that triggered it all. I tend to leave it where it is, unless a better suggestion is made. Maybe "2018 Chemnitz stabbing and protests"...--Greywin (talk) 14:56, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment I think it is ok to just put protests in the title. After all, that is what has launched the whole thing into global notability. Sources are talking about the protests as the main event. The stabbing attack was the trigger, but hardly the main event. This is similar to other articles about protests: 2018 Nicaraguan protests initiated after social security reform, Tunisian Revolution after an incident with the police, etc. None of these include the triggering event in the title, because that is not the main subject of the article. --MarioGom (talk) 15:35, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
    • At this time, the stabbing section is as long as the protests section. So its obviously wrong to claim that the sources were just about the protests. The majority of sources is very clear about what caused the events, because this belongs together: Many of the initial protesters were from the football fan scene of which Daniel Hillig was a part. And unlike your examples, the murder case as the triggering event would be notable for itself, even if no protests would have taken place (see articles about comparable murder cases in recent German history). Also a revolution for example has a much bigger dimension than the Chemnitz protests (up to now).--Greywin (talk) 16:24, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
      • Comment @MarioGom:, I used that argument at the "2018 Chemnitz protests" page, after Greywin insisted it be deleted. We came to the compromise that the articles be merged, and since this article had more edits, preserved it here. Above are the links to the article and talk history of the protests page if you want to see. However, reading all of these comments above, perhaps the "protests" title would be preferred, now there are other users in discussion. Kingsif (talk) 20:41, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose the protests were about the stabbing incident. AadaamS (talk) 16:38, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose "violence", support "protests". I am in favour of the move but "violence" is too wide and ambiguous to clearly describe what the event is about. Impru20^talk 21:13, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose violence but support "protests". The current title should definitely be renamed but not violence, it's a too broad name. Protests is perfect, because the main/largest event of this incident were protests. (perhaps riots?) --Wq639 (talk) 22:34, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose the stabbing happened. The stabbing is the event, the protests and violent protests are a reaction to the crime. The crime is the event, the responses that follow, are responses. however dramatic.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:55, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I'd disagree: the first, small, protest seemed to be a response to the stabbing. Reliable sources then mostly agree that any following protests and riots happened separately and intending to tackle wider issues. Perhaps a domino effect was present, but it grew a lot bigger than just a stabbing. The protests are not a direct response to such an attack, they also require a background of anti-immigration sentiment and growing far-right groups (which the stabbing doesn't), though the two incidents are obviously related. Kingsif (talk) 11:31, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I made a proposal to cover both. But it can't be a solution to separate the protests from the stabbing. And I didn't find that in any source.--Greywin (talk) 18:02, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment The article in German is called "2018 Chemnitz riots". Kingsif (talk) 17:13, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

...which is apparently controversial, if you look at the revision history there.--Greywin (talk) 18:02, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Are you referring to the one user whose only edit was to move the page, an edit which was undone within minutes? Doesn't seem like controversial. Kingsif (talk) 18:13, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

The page was created with another title and moved afterwards. But that aside, I know the interest of certain people to separate certain aspects. Which is unhistoric. Too say the least.--Greywin (talk) 18:30, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment at this stage I am convinced that these are riots. We can't call this a 'stabbing attack' with the violence that has actually happened. The stabbing was only a small part. It would be the same as calling the 2011 England riots as 'London shooting' or the Ferguson unrest as 'Ferguson shooting'.

Above unsigned comment from Wq639 (talk) --Kingsif (talk) 12:22, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Who is wrong in calling the protests "riots". Only a small number of the 6000 protesters were "rioting". And if the stabbing was "only a small part" (which is also wrong, as the length of the respective paragraphs of the article shows), it definitely was the most destructive part, because it irreversibly destroyed a human life.--Greywin (talk) 12:58, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Even if there were few riots, '2018 Chemnitz violence' would still be a lot more sensible than 'stabbing attack'. Stabbings happen everywhere on an almost daily basis. If this was just a stabbing it almost certainly wouldn't even gain the worldwide press coverage. All this coverage happened because of the violence that took place afterwards. --Wq639 (talk) 16:52, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Wrong again, see Category:Stabbing attacks in 2018, 2017, 2016... for example.--Greywin (talk) 18:50, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment The majority seem to favor "anything but the current name", with the largest opposition coming from User:Greywin being "keep original name" and "but the stabbing killed someone". However, notability is for the protests/riots/violence. I also sense, from Greywin's last comment, that they are too close or emotionally invested to give an objective opinion on the article name. Someone else should move the article, close this, or choose which of the suggested names is best (riots/protests seems to be getting the biggest support), because I opened it. Kingsif (talk) 17:00, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Again, I made a proposal to cover both. And I doubt you have an "objective opinion", whatever that means, too. You just have an opinion, as everyone.--Greywin (talk) 18:50, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

You did, but it's quite long, and lots of articles have long titles but it's preferred if they're, succinct. Objective opinion = forming an opinion looking only at presented facts. That's what I'm doing, whereas you've taken emotion and personal view into account. Kingsif (talk) 19:00, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

That's your perception. I see it just the other way round, and the article underlines this.--Greywin (talk) 19:07, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

OK. What's my perception? What do you see the other way round, and what does the article underline? None of your statements seem to relate to things in my comment. Kingsif (talk) 19:53, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Requesting input: @Deb:, @Sig:, @MarioGom:, @AadamS:, @Impru20:, @Wq639:, @E.M.Gregory: --Kingsif (talk) 17:06, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Chemnitz police reports only four complaints on 26 August, two of them aussault and one intimidation. On 27 August police reports minor collisions between protesters and counter-protesters and some injuries on both sides, but no heavy injuries have been reported. Since then, also no major violence or clashes have been reported by the police. --Rio65trio (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment Unless all the witness statements in sources in the article are incorrect, there was much more violence than there were reports. However, an alternative name suggestion has been "protests", and protests aren't always violent. Would you support that name? Kingsif (talk) 21:20, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

The Chemnitz stabbing attack is comparable to the 2017 Kandel stabbing attack, where similar protests and counter-protests are taking place since months, which is described in more detail in the German-language article. Thus, it is too early to say if these protests of the first days after the stabbing will have any long-term significance at all. This is why I would stay with the current article name. --Rio65trio (talk) 15:23, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment I'd also like to note that the BBC headlines features "Far right Germany protests" as a main news story, and does not mention the stabbing at all. Kingsif (talk) 03:01, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

You are correct. Almost all sources say either protests or riots. The current title is just void. --Wq639 (talk) 14:39, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

• • Move? 7 days are gone by and there's large support here for naming it '2018 Chemnitz protests' (myself included). It's time for an admin to make the move. --Wq639 (talk) 14:42, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Request a very minor edit

Please remove the words "created by the Nazis and" from the sentence starting with "When the media began filming the rioters, some of the far-right members shouted "Lügenpresse". It's simply not true, the term Lügenpresse is not a Nazi creation, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lying_press#History

I made this edit earlier but it was accidentally reverted along with rash of bad changes. Please redo my minor correction. Thnx. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C414:C120:9527:2685:1E23:D243 (talk) 21:11, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

I made this correction, thank you.--Greywin (talk) 21:38, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Suspect ages

There are different ages in different sections for suspects. Do the sources contradict? Is one misstated? Kingsif (talk) 21:08, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 6 September 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved per the consensus below L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:31, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

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2018 Chemnitz stabbing attack → 2018 Chemnitz protests – Per discussions above. There was strong support for the 'protests' title so I find it silly that it was denied. Wq639 (talk) 00:37, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support There is still news about the protests, which apparently started up again so the article probably needs updating, and nothing about the stabbing. Sometimes a stabbing is a big deal, sometimes it isn't; protests usually are always a big deal. Kingsif (talk) 00:41, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support Makes sense. The actual stabbing is no longer the primary focus, the protests are. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:15, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support I too believe that there already was a consensus for "2018 Chemnitz protests" in the last move discussion by both who supported and opposed the violence variant. Pinging closer L293D. --Pudeo (talk) 08:19, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Major mistake

"Daniel Hillig, who was stabbed during the protests" He wasn't killed during the protests. His death ignited the protests itfp. Shai-Huludim (talk) 14:18, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

At least it was misleading, so I changed it. --slg (talk) 15:38, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

This is how the page title is misleading. The stabbing was the initial crime, but it isn't reflected in the title. At least I clarified this now in the infobox, which was misleading, too.--Greywin (talk) 16:59, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Use of Bild as a source

Bild is clearly not a reliable source. It's the equivalent of the UK tabloid, The Sun, which we would never use as a source in this encyclopedia. Please find an alternative. Deb (talk) 09:24, 15 November 2018 (UTC)