Talk:2019–20 Miami FC season
Latest comment: 4 years ago by Blaixx in topic Article title
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Article title
editArsenalFan700 I would like to discuss the title of this article further. In your edit summary, you said:
I get it but the they were part of the 2019–20 NISA season. This page covers the 2019–20 technically, even if they didn't play in the Spring Season.
This article covers more than just NISA, it includes the 2019 NPSL season, the 2019 U.S. Open Cup, and the 2019 NISA Fall Showcase. I think "2019 Miami FC season" is a very logical title for that collection of topics. It would also reduce ambiguity when the "2020 Miami FC season" article is created. If the reader is looking for details about Miami FC from 2020, it's clear where they should look. BLAIXX 16:18, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
- Hey, so I know you're asking for their opinion but I've also hung around here and would like to chime in. This page was made for the 2019-20 NISA season, not anything to do with the NPSL. It shouldn't include the 2019 U.S. Open Cup since Miami FC, as a member of NISA, did not take part in the 2019 U.S. Open Cup. Wikipedia season pages are reserved for teams in professional leagues. Now, I don't necessarily believe not including it. This is a very unique situation. However, we can't just call this the "2019 Miami FC season" because that's not what it was. I think a great example is what happened with Bury FC this year when it was kicked out of the league over in England. Its season page still says 2019-20. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 16:20, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comment, this discussion is open to everyone. I do realize that this article was created for NISA and only meets the notability guidelines because of NISA, but I don't see any reason why we can't adjust the scope of the article to cover Miami FC in the 2019 calendar year. I don't think that Bury F.C. is a comparable situation. While the EFL League One competition is clearly one season over two calendar years, NISA is very much two distinct competitions: Fall 2019 and Spring 2020 (NISA themselves don't use the term "2019–20 season"). Another difference is that every Bury F.C. season has stretched over two years in contrast to every Miami FC season which has (and will going forward) been a single year. For the sake of consistency and clarity, just "2019" makes the most sense to me. BLAIXX 02:28, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think Fall and Spring are "two distinct" competitions though. The Fall Champions (LA Force & (formerly) Miami) earned berths into the Spring playoff because they won their respective conference championships. If we went with the mentality you suggested, we would have to separate something like the revamped NASL into separate Spring and Fall pages. They are separate seasons in that the standings somewhat reset, but I think there still will be an overall table at the end. And my only concern about adding last year's U.S. Open Cup comes with the fact the precedent it might set with the other teams. Look at something like Atlanta SC who, like Miami, competed in NPSL in 2019. When that season page gets made, do we say it didn't qualify in 2019 through the NPSL but then in 2020 did with NISA? I'm just trying to make sure anything we do we try and be consistent across the board should anyone else make season pages. Finally your point about how in the past and going forward all Miami season were 1 single year and wanting to be consistent I get. But in the interest of honesty and being historically accurate it might be best to keep this as is since Miami was part of this two year season. It earned a spot in the 2020 spring playoff, it was locked in there. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 04:53, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
- The two competitions are distinct in the sense that some teams are competing in just the Fall, some in just the Spring, and some in both. They are somewhat linked through the TBA playoffs – no one is suggesting we split apart the existing NISA or NASL articles! My point is, you can say that Miami competed in the NISA 2019 Fall competition and leave it at that. Regarding Atlanta SC, I believe they plan on participating in the Spring 2020 NISA season so I think that article would be titled 2019–20 Atlanta SC season and also include details about the 2020 USOC. Going back to what leagues we create season articles for, WP:NSEASONS reads: "A national championship season at the top collegiate level is generally notable". While not "collegiate", Miami won the 2019 NPSL national title which may not be enough for a full article but would fit perfectly in an article about Miami's 2019 season (year). I know you're looking for consistency but for these NISA "half season" teams, we should probably evaluate them on a case-by-case basis. BLAIXX 01:44, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
- Regarding your first point, I am not sure I get it. It is clearly stated on the NISA website that winning the West Coast Championship and East Coast Championship qualifies you for the 2020 Spring Season Playoffs. Both "seasons" are connected in the same way that the North American Soccer League spring and fall seasons were connected, in that both champions would qualify for the Soccer Bowl. Regarding your second point though, it isn't as simple as "I think it should be this". We have a simple guideline for these things. NPSL is simply not a professional league at all, your argument for that would basically mean that all other NPSL and even USL League Two teams would get season articles. Also, lets get some facts right here. Miami FC's participation in the 2019 NPSL season and 2019–20 NISA season are separate seasons. It would be like if the New York Red Bulls went from the 2019 MLS season to the 2019–20 NISA season and then dropped out after the fall season... we would create two separate articles, one for their MLS season and one for their short-lived NISA season. Also because they would probably make squad changes beforehand, just like Miami FC did in between NPSL and NISA.
- Basically, the 2019 NPSL season Miami FC and the 2019–20 NISA season Miami FC are separate seasons. One is semi-pro and the other is professional. One wouldn't qualify for the page by itself, the other would. Both have different stats (considering level of competition between NPSL and NISA) which would lead to some of them being inflated. In the end, the NPSL season shouldn't be mentioned here, this should be the 2019–20 Miami FC season since they were participants in the 2019–20 NISA season, regardless of them leaving after the Fall Season and before the Spring Season. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 05:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- I think you're misinterpreting me a little so I will clarify. I understand that the winner of the Fall season is granted a berth in the Spring playoffs, I just don't think that fact is that important (the winner of the 2019 CONCACAF League qualifies for the 2020 CONCACAF Champions League too). What is important is that Miami is NOT participating in the Spring 2020 season just as Chattanooga FC, Detroit City FC, and Michigan Stars FC did NOT participate in the 2019 Fall season – it seems to me that this is a feature of NISA. Regarding my second point, I was not stating my opinion or how "I think it should be", I was quoting WP:NSEASONS which is a Wikipedia policy. I did interpret "collegiate" to include amateur/semi-pro put the policy states that a national championship season may be notable (so no, not every NPSL and USL2 team). The same policy also states: "In cases where the individual season notability is insufficient for an article, multiple seasons may be grouped together in a single article". I think this is a perfect opportunity to group together Miami FC's amateur national championship season (and USOC participation) with their 8-game division 3 professional half-season. BLAIXX 23:24, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- I wouldn't use the CONCACAF examples here. This situation with NISA and that situation are completely different. For the CONCACAF League, it actually is a separate competition from the CONCACAF Champions League and the top 6 sides qualify for that next level. The NISA Fall and Spring seasons are part of same competition, just like the Fall and Spring schedules in NASL and the Apertura and Clausura in Central/South American leagues. So that point, to me, is null and void. It doesn't matter that Miami FC isn't participating in the 2020 Spring season and that those other clubs didn't play in the Fall season. Just like with the Bury FC example above, they are still in the 2019–20 NISA season and thus should have 2019–20... just like 2019–20 Philadelphia Fury season.
- In regards to WP:NSEASONS, the policy is that "A national championship season at a lower collegiate level might be notable". The NPSL isn't even a collegiate level, it is literally a semi-pro level with some teams using college players and others not. At that point you have to show how the NPSL season would pass WP:GNG. And that last point also wouldn't work. First off, for semantics reasons, that point is for college sports but regardless, I don't think the NISA season would lack of sufficient coverage and that the NPSL season would add much more. ArsenalFan700 (talk) 05:08, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- As I explained above, I know NPSL isn't collegiate but seeing as college sports are amateur, I don't see why that policy would not extend to other amateur or "semi-pro" leagues. I took a look at WP:GNG page you linked above, at the bottom it says: "if a topic does not meet these criteria but still has some verifiable facts, it might be useful to discuss it within another article." I think the implications are pretty clear that Miami's 2019 NPSL season could be included as part of another article. Our main disagreement is that you are equating the season structure of EFL League Two and NISA where as I think they are totally different and that Bury FC folding during the 2019–20 season is different than Miami leaving NISA after the Fall 2019 season. At this point I think we should take a pause, leave this article mostly as-is, and revisit this during or after the Spring 2020 season when we will have a better idea of how the media and other RS describe this matter. BLAIXX 01:40, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
- I think you're misinterpreting me a little so I will clarify. I understand that the winner of the Fall season is granted a berth in the Spring playoffs, I just don't think that fact is that important (the winner of the 2019 CONCACAF League qualifies for the 2020 CONCACAF Champions League too). What is important is that Miami is NOT participating in the Spring 2020 season just as Chattanooga FC, Detroit City FC, and Michigan Stars FC did NOT participate in the 2019 Fall season – it seems to me that this is a feature of NISA. Regarding my second point, I was not stating my opinion or how "I think it should be", I was quoting WP:NSEASONS which is a Wikipedia policy. I did interpret "collegiate" to include amateur/semi-pro put the policy states that a national championship season may be notable (so no, not every NPSL and USL2 team). The same policy also states: "In cases where the individual season notability is insufficient for an article, multiple seasons may be grouped together in a single article". I think this is a perfect opportunity to group together Miami FC's amateur national championship season (and USOC participation) with their 8-game division 3 professional half-season. BLAIXX 23:24, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- The two competitions are distinct in the sense that some teams are competing in just the Fall, some in just the Spring, and some in both. They are somewhat linked through the TBA playoffs – no one is suggesting we split apart the existing NISA or NASL articles! My point is, you can say that Miami competed in the NISA 2019 Fall competition and leave it at that. Regarding Atlanta SC, I believe they plan on participating in the Spring 2020 NISA season so I think that article would be titled 2019–20 Atlanta SC season and also include details about the 2020 USOC. Going back to what leagues we create season articles for, WP:NSEASONS reads: "A national championship season at the top collegiate level is generally notable". While not "collegiate", Miami won the 2019 NPSL national title which may not be enough for a full article but would fit perfectly in an article about Miami's 2019 season (year). I know you're looking for consistency but for these NISA "half season" teams, we should probably evaluate them on a case-by-case basis. BLAIXX 01:44, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think Fall and Spring are "two distinct" competitions though. The Fall Champions (LA Force & (formerly) Miami) earned berths into the Spring playoff because they won their respective conference championships. If we went with the mentality you suggested, we would have to separate something like the revamped NASL into separate Spring and Fall pages. They are separate seasons in that the standings somewhat reset, but I think there still will be an overall table at the end. And my only concern about adding last year's U.S. Open Cup comes with the fact the precedent it might set with the other teams. Look at something like Atlanta SC who, like Miami, competed in NPSL in 2019. When that season page gets made, do we say it didn't qualify in 2019 through the NPSL but then in 2020 did with NISA? I'm just trying to make sure anything we do we try and be consistent across the board should anyone else make season pages. Finally your point about how in the past and going forward all Miami season were 1 single year and wanting to be consistent I get. But in the interest of honesty and being historically accurate it might be best to keep this as is since Miami was part of this two year season. It earned a spot in the 2020 spring playoff, it was locked in there. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 04:53, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comment, this discussion is open to everyone. I do realize that this article was created for NISA and only meets the notability guidelines because of NISA, but I don't see any reason why we can't adjust the scope of the article to cover Miami FC in the 2019 calendar year. I don't think that Bury F.C. is a comparable situation. While the EFL League One competition is clearly one season over two calendar years, NISA is very much two distinct competitions: Fall 2019 and Spring 2020 (NISA themselves don't use the term "2019–20 season"). Another difference is that every Bury F.C. season has stretched over two years in contrast to every Miami FC season which has (and will going forward) been a single year. For the sake of consistency and clarity, just "2019" makes the most sense to me. BLAIXX 02:28, 17 December 2019 (UTC)