Talk:2022 Armenian protests

Number of protesters

Inviting the IP user to present their sources here for discussion/consensus. Archives908 (talk) 16:07, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Detained people

I've added the reliable sources and updated the info, while these are reverted on obsolete stats. --78.109.69.9 (talk) 16:22, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not denying that the numbers have increased since May 2. However- you need to provide a total figure to date, rather then just scattered odd numbers. There is no way to verify if those numbers are carried over from the previous day/protest, if they are cumulated totals or not, or if they are from duplicated news sources. Just because they are published on different dates does not matter. One article could claim that on May 2, 50 protestors were detained. Another article could claim on May 3, 60 protestors were detained. We do not know if the report from May 3 carried over the numbers from May 2. That is why I have restored the original number until more figures are presented. Grand totals haven't been assessed since the protests are still on-going and there are different numbers all over the place. It is probably better to update the number once a reliable source is found publishing total number of detainees to date, rather then using potentially bloated statistics which may not be 100% accurate. This article has been semi-protected due to your disruptive tactics and you were subsequently blocked for 48hrs. I hope you understand Wikipedia ethos more clearly now and engage constructively moving forward. Archives908 (talk) 18:26, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

All you told here is a total absurd. There is not even a reason to prove that, but I will.

Here is why:

1. Everyone, who knows Armenian or can use online translation services can clearly see, that source articles stating about same day: almost all sources stating that police detained X peoples from morning (առավոտվանից) or as of 18:00 police stated that there is detained X people. These stats were provided exactly by police and can vary only by hour of statement. Also all sources mentions the events from same day. It's such a good logic to provide a one day number as total number. Again, the number can be various, but almost all are official stats provided by police, just on various hours, the higher numbers just means that it's later info on that day.
2. 237 people were detained by police, and I've provided the reliable source of it, why do you deleted it? Along with 244 it's already 481. The numbers not only increased, these increased rapidly. There is lot of sources proving reliability of these numbers: 70 were detained as of 10:00, 169 were detained as of 14:00, 206 were detained as of 16:00 (May 3). The same way on all days, May 4: 24 were detained in earlier info, 40 were detained on later info (newly found), May 5: 49 were detained on earlier info 69 were detained as of 13:00, May 6: 48 were detained on earlier info, 59 were detained on later info, detains were much lower between May 7-9; no official statements at least I've not seen, May 10: 35 were detained as of 14:00, 61 were detained as of 16:00. These proving the reliability of every single source of my edits.
3. I've written about much more info about the arrests and events, whose were also reverted by you without any reason. These proving that you're just lowering the numbers and rewriting the article because of your political ideology.
4. "Disruptive tactics". Hahaha. The page is protected, semi protected or not, absolutely means nothing. This can mean only one: there is no neutral point of view in Wikipedia. What is constructive? It is removing the proven minimal number of detained people? And that block means absolutely nothing too, because it was did by one of most controversial admins of Wiki and also I could just override it. Better remember your block back in December, 2019.

By the way, the total number of detained people is already about 1500, including 414 people detained in May 17 as of 12:15, 364 people detained in May 18 as of 14:00. --78.109.69.151 (talk) 01:33, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Thanks for creating the article!.

✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 06:25, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2022

Because of the only counter-argument against my arguments to update the info of the events, especially of detained and arrested people, is the "rudeness" of my speech, I'm requesting to update the events info to the editors, whose doesn't provoking edit wars because of their political ideologies. So here is what to change or add:

• The detained people's number was rapidly increased since May 2. Now, according to opposition it is 2500, but officially is 2100 [1].
• There should be an update to events section, because the first march was started in April 25 [2].
• Police used stun grenades to suppress the protests in June 3 [3].
• Also, there is a neutrality issue, 70% of article is telling about government's actions, reactions, not events of protests or something related of it. 78.109.68.46 (talk) 22:25, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

 Done Regarding the above:

• The number has been updated to 2,100.
• The first demonstration was actually on 5 April, which is reflected in the lede.
• The events section has been updated with details from June, including the use of stun grenades by the police.
• There are no neutrality issues. The "Background" section covers political events before and during the protests, while the "Events" section covers the protests. Archives908 (talk) 18:50, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

  Well, just a few remarks:

  • 2100 detained people is a official number provided by police, according to opposition. But according their own infos it is up to 2500. I think the number of 2100-2500 people is a better coverage.
  • Yes, the first demonstration occurred in April 5, when the protesters installed Artsakh's flag at France Square [4]. And also after three days the flag was "vandalized" by a National Democratic Pole member [5]. But the first march was started in April 25, not 26, when Gegham Nazaryan and Aspram Krpeyan started a march from Ijevan to Yerevan [6].
  • What comes to June 3 incident, I think that more neutral coverage will be to add that both sides blamed other in provoking the clash [7]. The gov't and LEAs claiming the protesters on provoked the clash with throwing the objects onto police [8], while the opposition claiming that LEAs provoked the clash due to police brutality [9]. What comes to injuries, the opposition claims that the policemen were injured due to expired stun grenades, thrown on their own side [10][11].
  • So overall there should be more info regarding the protest's events, such as pitch invasions, concert disruptions, etc, or police reactions on the street blockades, etc. 78.109.79.151 (talk) 22:53, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

  Reply:

  • The 2100 figure was initially claimed by Ishkhan Saghatelyan via a Facebook post. Hardly factual. No formal statistics from a third party have been released to date confirming any finalized number, and rightfully so, considering the numbers fluctuate daily. Therefore, 2100 will suffice until more WP:RS confirm figures.
  • The date has been changed to 26 April.
  • In terms of the 3 June events, details are still emerging as city officials are seeking an investigation. Therefore, your suggestion to "add that both sides blamed other" is not scholarly. It is unwise to WP:CRYSTALBALL and lay blame on either side. The current source/wording makes equal mention to the stones/bottles used by the protestors, the stun grenades used by the police, and the police hospitalizations (which has been confirmed by the Ministry of Health). Once details are more clear, this can be expanded if need be.
  • The most significant events which have occurred so far, are covered. Smaller skirmishes involving few protestors/lack of diverse media coverage will fail to meet WP:N and are not critical to the article nor would detract from a reader's understanding of the subject. Archives908 (talk) 00:42, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

    • The translation of Saghatelyan's post: "Dear compatriots, according to official data, so far 2100 Resistance movement activists were detained by police and taken to various stations. However, we know that not all detained people were documented by police. In reality, the number of detained people is 2500." Here is the English version of news.am article: [12]. That's why the number 2500 can be mentioned. Anyway.
    • The question is, that the opposition stated four different marches from different towns [13]. The first was from the Ijevan [14] started in April 25, second from Tigranashen [15][16] started in April 26, third was from Aparan [17] in April 28, and fourth was from Sardarapat [18] on same day.
    • There is lot of infos regarding June 3 incident. For example, not only protesters threw stones and bottles, but also the police [19]. Also according to MoH, 16 protesters were injured [20]. So, I don't think that one short sentence can give the comprehensive picture of occurred.
    • In May 17 only, 412 people were detained, which is a record for a single day [21]. Also a notable incident was the blockade of the Ministry of Foreign affairs building [22] in May 24. Or young men with flags of Artsakh ran onto the stage during European Boxing Championship opening ceremony [23][24] in May 23. 78.109.79.151 (talk) 03:43, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

      • For the second time, Saghatelyan's post is not reliable. I've read the article and his estimate is not verifiable, it is a personal estimate. 2100 will remain.
      • The April 25 march is the most notable of the group.
      • For the second time, June 3 details are still emerging. Details of the injured protestors has been added.
      • The blocking of the Ministry building and the incident at the European Boxing Championship ceremony has been added. Archives908 (talk) 13:22, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

        • The question is not reliability here. 2500 is opposition estimate, just because Saghatelyan is the de facto leader of the protests, while he claims that the number of 2100 detained people was provided by police officially [25]. It's common practice when estimation, varied on both sides were covered in articles, such as 2021 Eswatini protests ('Casualties and losses' section).
        • Anna Grigoryan did not started the April 25's march, she started the April 26's. April 25's march was started by Aspram Krpeyan and Gegham Nazaryan [26].
        • "Protestors threw stones and bottles at the police, which was followed by the use of stun grenades by the police.". Above I've provided a one of the episodes, happened before the use of stun granades. As for prediction, there is no needed to be a mystic to say that the investigation will result to blaming the protesters on provocation, even more Investigative Committee already started it [27].
        • There is a lot of events, whiches are notable, but doesn't covered in the article. That section is really needed to update by adding more info. 78.109.78.195 (talk) 07:16, 12 June 2022 (UTC)