Talk:2023–2024 Manipur violence

Warring Groups

I have removed the following part in the section "Warring groups":

"Secessionist Meitei insurgent groups, having previously escaped to Myanmar due to Indian counter-insurgency operations, are believed to have returned to Manipur in the midst of violence and begun to conduct operations against the Kuki-Zo villages. "

Notes

References

The source is too weak to warrant an entry. We need to place the well sourced, and corroborated facts and information that merits Wikipedia, not beliefs of some random news. Please feel free to discuss if any user/editor have contrary view on this edit. Okenkhwairakpam (talk) 15:16, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

What is meant by "sources are too weak"? Who decides and how? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:24, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, I said "the source" not "sources" as you misunderstood.

And please read the content carefully, "..., are believed to have returned ...". Can we posit "belief" of some weak, random news source and make up a statement for an encyclopedia. And for your reasonable doubt of "Who" and "How", please re-run, and see if I am making some sense, and you may decide for yourself as a responsible editor. The content of the source are also full of uncertainties pertaining to the statement posited. Moreover, there are contrary statements even in the source itself. So, the source itself (that is for "Who?"), and the content which written with uncertainties, guesswork (that's for the "How?"). If you find difficulties in reading and understanding the source content, please feel free to ask. Happy to discuss line by line.

Concerned editor may also take it as an opportunity to put another source that corroborates the "belief" into a fact, and posit genuinely. Else it is original research (WP:OR), misinterpretation of source (WP:SOURCEMIS).

Hope that clarifies. Okenkhwairakpam (talk) 17:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Your edit summary said, Belief cannot be part of Wikipedia.. Are you citing some Wikipedia policy for this? Or is it a rule you made up yourself?

Since insurgent groups operate secretively, information about them is always laced with such uncertainties, even in the top-quality sources. Nobody has said that such information has to be excluded anywhere.

In any case, that is pretty old content. This article hasn't been updated for months. There is a lot more information available now, including the NiA chargesheet, which I will be adding eventually. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Sure, we must add prominent facts, well published, and even minority view if worthy of an encyclopedia (please correct me if I am wrong in interchanging wikipedia and encyclopedia), not some wishy-washy beliefs.

"Since insurgent..... secretively, .... uncertainties,...". Aren't you reasoning yourself for your preferred version? I would rather not doubt the capabilities of news professionals, than give my own reason believe a news piece with uncertainties and guesswork in almost every paragraph. You may re-consider it yourself, I respect experienced people of their wits and wisdom. We must improve the article rather than clinging on to preferred version.

For the NIA chargesheets..., would appreciate eventually.

Thanks again. Happy editing. Okenkhwairakpam (talk) 19:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

@Luwanglinux, Please self edit/remove the discussed part that you reinstated:

"Secessionist Meitei insurgent groups, having previously escaped to Myanmar due to Indian counter-insurgency operations, are believed to have returned to Manipur in the midst of violence and begun to conduct operations against the Kuki-Zo villages. "

Reasons:

1.Original research (WP:OR),

2. Misinterpretation of source (WP:SOURCEMIS)

3. Edit summary does not cover reason for reinstating the discussed portion (WP:EP),

4. It is discussed in the talk page with no reasonable counter point (WP:DON'TPRESERVE),

5. Not improving the article (WP:IAR),

6. One contributor claims to have a lot more information available presently and intends to add eventually, hopefully to improve the article (WP:PERFECTION).

7. Weak source in view of context (WP:CONTEXTMATTERS). Okenkhwairakpam (talk) 19:41, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

As there is no significant counterpoint for a long time, the part as discussed is removed for the reasons as discussed above.

Removed part:

"Secessionist Meitei insurgent groups, having previously escaped to Myanmar due to Indian counter-insurgency operations, are believed to have returned to Manipur in the midst of violence and begun to conduct operations against the Kuki-Zo villages." Thank you. Okenkhwairakpam (talk) 16:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I have also removed the statement from the section:

"Some of them also fired on the security forces, resulting in gunshot injuries to an Army major."

Reasons:

WP:OR

WP:SOURCEMIS

WP:5P2

- The statement is a conclusion not stated by the source cited.

- Broadly misinterpretation of cited source.

- Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong on Wikipedia.

If any contributor has other views, please feel free to discuss. Happy editing, and happy discussion. Thank you. Okenkhwairakpam (talk) 19:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Warring Groups-2

I have also removed the following part from the section "Warring groups":

"In September, one militant was arrested, along with four other civilians, for travelling with illegal arms wearing police uniforms. After the court granted him bail, he was rearrested by the National Investigation Agency (NIA) and taken to Delhi. Subsequently NIA issued a public warning stating that Myanmar-based insurgent groups were organising to wage a war against India by exploiting the ethnic clashes."

References

Reasons:

(a) There is no merit of random arrests to be part of the section.

(b) Selective sourcing, say biased view.

(c) Other such arrests are too prominent that reflects opposing view.

Please feel free to discuss if any user/editor have contrary view on this edit. Okenkhwairakpam (talk) 15:25, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

It is not a "random arrest". It was an arrest by NIA, which normally investigates terrorism-related charges. How many such arrests have taken place during this conflict? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:02, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Random arrest in the sense of random picking from some arrests by NIA. As for the "How many... in the conflict?", I hope you answered it yourself that you are aware (view previous section talk). Thanks you again. Happy editing. Okenkhwairakpam (talk) 19:51, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the Times of India is not generally reliable. See survey at RSN (disclaimer: I have voted there). Chaipau (talk) 12:18, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:TOI doesn't show a clear consensus on this. I think it can be used with due care. I will find other sources too, just to be sure. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:19, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Unexplained re-instating of the discussed content. I have removed the following:

"In September, one militant was arrested, along with four other civilians, for travelling with illegal arms wearing police uniforms. After the court granted him bail, he was rearrested by the National Investigation Agency (NIA) and taken to Delhi. Subsequently NIA issued a public warning stating that Myanmar-based insurgent groups were organising to wage a war against India by exploiting the ethnic clashes."

Any contributor of the contrary view may come up with constructive points to discuss and improve the article, especially this section in this case. Happy discussion and happy editing. Thank you. Okenkhwairakpam (talk) 06:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Drone Attack

Hi concerned editors, Please review the following information to determine if it is well-sourced and deserves inclusion:

Insurgents in India's Manipur state have carried out a deadly attack on security forces, using drones to drop explosives in what police called a "significant escalation" of violence in the restive northeastern region. A 31-year-old women was killed and six people were wounded Sunday in what police said was an "unprecedented attack" by rebels who used drones to drop the heads of rocket-propelled grenades.

"While drone bombs have commonly been used in general warfare, this recent deployment of drones to deploy explosives against security forces and the civilians marks a significant escalation," Manipur police said in a statement Sunday. The attack outside the state capital Imphal was carried out by "alleged Kuki" rebels, the statement said.

Those injured included an eight-year-old girl -- the daughter of the woman who was killed -- as well three civilians and two police officers. "The involvement of highly trained professionals, possibly with technical expertise and support, cannot be ruled out," the police said.

Sources: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/manipur/woman-killed-daughter-injured-in-firing-in-manipur-by-suspected-militants/article68593169.ece

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/others/woman-killed-4-others-injured-in-fresh-violence-in-manipur-101725196003019.html#google_vignette

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/manipur-violence-2-dead-9-injured-in-firing-by-militants-drones-bombs-gun-attack/articleshow/112973642.cms

https://www.barrons.com/news/indian-insurgents-in-manipur-launch-deadly-drone-attack-88d91d93

https://www.ifp.co.in/manipur/drone-attack-attempt-to-derail-peace-efforts-manipur-government DangalOh (talk) 09:12, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

In subsequent development of the drone attack, a second attack was carried out on 3rd September 2024 in a village called Senjam Chirang leikai which is a Meitei village, 3 more people were injured. According to Manipur police, in the combing operation that was carried out, a drone and some weapons were seized.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/manipur/three-injured-in-second-drone-attack-in-manipur/article68598426.ece Dafountainhead (talk) 17:20, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Everything is attributed to Manipur Police, who are not a reliable source per Wikipedia criteria. We need independent sources acknowledging these claims.

The woman and her daughter were targeted by gunfire, not drone attack [1]. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes "Manipur Police" functioning in Churachandpur District which consist of Kuki people is an unreliable source and basically non functional as they let every Meitei house bombed and reduced to dust. Unlike in Imphal and adjoining valley district where Manipur Police still functioning like any other police department of the country. For example in valley district, lots of Meitei militants or extortionist arrest have been made however such arrest has not happened in Churachandpur or Kangpokpi district as the police personnel are of the same tribe. This can be ascertained by the fact that a head constable, Siamlalpaul was suspended for posting a viral video where he was seen posing with armed Militants. In response to the suspension, a 300-400 strong mob burned down the churachandpur DC office and SP office and due to which the DC and the SP were airlifted the next day

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/manipur-mob-barges-into-churachandpur-govt-office-complex-1-killed-101708048106822.html Dafountainhead (talk) 03:06, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

See also this NDTV article which dispels a lot of the hype. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

What about providing attribution, such as intelligence reports and Manipur Police, for the statement? Whatever it may be—drone, bomb, or gun—let's note it as per the sources wiki consider reliable. I think that would be fair. Providing attribution should ensure a balanced perspective. Omitting this information might come across as a strong bias towards a group. Not saying that the bias dosent work the other way too. Lets try to bw more neutral. Regards DangalOh (talk) 04:42, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we would attribute it to the Manipur Police if and when we decide to add it, But why should we add it at all, given that all we have are vague unsubstantiated claims? There are plenty of important developments that happened over the last 12 to 15 months that haven't been covered yet. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:01, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

That is all fine, but I am amazed that someone would remove 'claimed' for things that can't be calculated with data and are intangible and vague, like 'Meitei majoritarianism,' using sources that employ terms such as 'BJP majoritarianism' and phrases like 'may have,' but then straight out marks data-driven reasons as 'claimed.' And regarding anti-Christian sentiment, do we have data on who was mainly responsible—Hindus or Sanamahists? Isn't there a proper Meitei mainstream group that hates Hinduism as well and wants Sanamahism back? Who destroyed the churches? Followers of which religion? Both together? And the other zo people group is so secular that they dont have any anti hindu or ant sanamahist feeling? Everything here is vague,synthesis, extremely selective using questionable sources, and mainly aimed at pushing a narrative instead of acting as an unbiased encyclopedia.The main editor here is complaining, saying, "No, no, we won’t add this or that because when we wanted this or that to be included, it wasn’t added either." But I'm not going to waste my time here, as there are so many other 'more interesting for me' topics that may need some discussion and attention. Happy editing to you. Prayers for people affected. As usual, i am out of here too. Dont wanna lose my hair over this. DangalOh (talk) 04:45, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is written by summarising reliable sources. What those reliable sources say are not tagged as "claims", unless there are disagreements among the sources.

The tags that I removed and added yesterday were the original tags that have been there for a long time, and appear to have been vandalised in recent days. -- Kautilya3 (talk)

It seems that drone attack(s) merits entry in the page. For the woman casualty, we might need to look closer if it was from the drone or otherwise. Not read the sources very closely as of now. Just my preliminary view. 2409:408A:809D:7CDA:0:0:1650:28B1 (talk) 03:13, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Efforts to survey

There has been this problematic sentence in the lead that has been tagged a while ago and never resolved. I have removed it here for discussion.

There have been evictions of Kuki communities as a result of efforts to survey forests, which were ostensibly made to stop the cultivation of poppy.

References

None of this is explained in the body, and I need to see explanation of how it summarises the sources. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:33, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

ethnic -> ethno-religious violence in lede

@Kautilya3, why did you remove ethno-religious violence from lede... The article already mentions attacks on temples and churches, and in the infobox there is also an attack caused by anti-Christian sentiment. There are all sources that make this ethno-religious. 103.241.226.121 (talk) 08:13, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

You need to provide a reliable source for it. In fact, multiple high-quality sources would be needed to make such a claim in the lead. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)