Talk:2023 Wagner Group plane crash/Archive 2

Archive 1Archive 2

Name change

Given the very apparent and glaring nature of the crash, should it be renamed the Assassination of Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin? 2401:7400:401A:F518:EC85:E7FF:FE17:2761 (talk) 16:39, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Eight other people were assasinated as well. One of them was another notable individual now with his own article. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
Per MOS:LABEL ,the term "assassination" (or "murder", for that matter) should be used with caution due to its negative connotation. If a consensus emerges among reputable mainstream sources that it was definitely an assassination, then the name can be changed, but it is likely to take a few years to reach that point if it's ever reached (consider that the motives and even the basic facts behind the violent deaths of numerous controversial historical figures are unknown or unknowable). Carguychris (talk) 21:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
This particular article is written and structured like aviation accident, and not like articles about deaths. Prigozhin's death has been dealt with in his own article. — kashmīrī TALK 05:06, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 September 2023

Please add in the investigation section that Molecular-Genetic & DNA tests have been conducted and the Dead peoples identity has been established.

Citations

1. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-investigators-confirm-wagner-mercenary-chief-prigozhin-died-plane-crash-2023-08-27

2. https://www.dw.com/en/yevgeny-prigozhin-dna-confirms-death-russia/a-66641480 DitorWiki (talk) 01:19, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Already done weeks before using similar terminology. Borgenland (talk) 08:05, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
Where DitorWiki (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
See the Passengers and Crew section. Borgenland (talk) 17:21, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
It will be better if we add in Investigation section because that was part of The Investigation DitorWiki (talk) 04:42, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 30 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to 2023 Wagner Group plane crash. Throughout this discussion, multiple alternatives have been suggested to the name proposed. There has been minimal support for the originally proposed move title, but better support for renaming the article to "2023 Wagner Group plane crash", or "2023 Wagner Group jet crash". Most appeared to be fine with either plane or jet, with a slight slant towards plane. (closed by non-admin page mover) EggRoll97 (talk) 04:59, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


2023 Tver Oblast plane crashTver Oblast Wagner business jet crash – "Plane" is unencyclopedic WP:SLANG or WP:COLLOQUIALISM that should not be used in article titles. "Wagner business jet" satisfies both WP:NOYEAR and WP:AVTITLE; it is unambiguous and highly unlikely to be confused with any other aircraft crash in Tver Oblast; and it includes Wagner, the most prominent WP:COMMONNAME search term used in the majority of media articles outside of Wikipedia. Carguychris (talk) 16:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

 
A plane
  • Support. See the picture at right: that is a plane. The use of the word "plane" to refer to an "airplane" is slang and we do not use slang in Wikipedia articles and especially not in titles. As WP:TONE says Articles and other encyclopedic content should be written in a formal tone ... Encyclopedic writing has a fairly academic approach, while remaining clear and understandable. Formal tone means that the article should not be written using argot, slang, colloquialisms, doublespeak, legalese, or jargon ... the English language should be used in a businesslike manner. - Ahunt (talk) 16:47, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
Why did you omit "that is unintelligible to an average reader" from this essay quotation? To quote MOS:SIC, "do ... omit text where doing so would remove important context." (And lest one think "unintelligible" only qualifies "jargon", note that it was originally at the beginning of the series of adjectives.) Is "plane crash" less intelligible to the average reader? Meanwhile, unless reliable sources says that "plane" is slang, it seems to me a perfectly ordinary synonym for airplane/aeroplane that is acceptable in standard English. And plane (tool) is far from being the most common topic for plane. SilverLocust 💬 15:54, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
The only reason that I can see why this article is being selected for renaming over any of the others is due to being a newer article that has a good amount of attention at the moment. I believe the proposer would have a better time discussing prohibiting the use of "plane" in article titles at the talk pages for WikiProject Aviation, WikiProject Disaster management, and/or WP:AVTITLE as those are the relevant areas to discuss aircraft incidents like this. It should be noted that AVTITLE currently lists two different articles as examples that use "plane crash" in the article title.
Regarding my support to move to 2023 Wagner plane crash or 2023 Prigozhin plane crash, a variant of the Wagner suggestion is already listed above and already mentions that the deaths of members of the Wagner group is part of the notability of the article. Regarding the Prigozhin suggestion, I have already mention in the prior discussion that "Prigozhin crash" or "Prigozhin plane crash" is the closest to a COMMONNAME that currently exists. Significantly, Agence France-Presse, Al Jazeera, Axios, CNN, The Guardian, The Hill, The Moscow Times, NHK, Radio Free Europe, and Reuters have all used either version in the last few days. Combined with the nine articles I listed prior, that makes eighteen publications that have used either version. Thus, I believe that Prigozhin plane crash could be considered to be the COMMONNAME for this incident. Personally, I don't care if the year is included or not due to previous events. --Super Goku V (talk) 21:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
@ModernDayTrilobite, @Estar8806, @Super Goku V: I've started this discussion at the WP:AVTITLE talk page to hash out whether "plane" or "plane crash" should be considered generally acceptable in article titles. Carguychris (talk) 22:10, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 
Also a plane
  • Oppose. Best move the page to 2023 Wagner plane crash, as I suggested last time round. This title is brief, to the point and contains all the essentials. The "plane"/"airplane" quibble is pedantic and a red herring; everyone knows what a "plane" is in the context of the word "crash", so the woodworking tool objection is frankly silly (by the same token we all know we're not talking about Richard Wagner), and "plane" itself is hardly slang ("plane crash" is completely normal everyday English). "Tver Oblast" is obscure and doesn't help most people identify which crash we're talking about. Adding "Group" to "Wagner" is unnecessarily verbose, as "Wagner" on its own is widely used. Ericoides (talk) 05:51, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
    Wagner is a surname and also nom de guerre of one of WG's leaders. WP:COMMONNAME for the company is Wagner Group, not "Wagner" alone. — kashmīrī TALK 07:21, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
    The common name could equally be said to be "Wagner", particularly when used adjectivally, i.e. "Wagner forces took Bakhmut". That it's "a surname and also nom de guerre of one of WG's leaders" is irrelevant. The context determines the meaning and few if any people will understand it as meaning Utkin. Concision is always better than prolixity if there's no ambiguity, but having said that, I'd have no objections to 2023 Wagner Group plane crash. Ericoides (talk) 08:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose The article could use a rename, but "wagner business jet crash" is the wrong move. Including business is far too pedantic. Maybe something like 2023 Wagner jet crash? Scu ba (talk) 20:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose "business jet", and especially "Wagner business jet" as that can easily be read as jet of "Wagner business" (which would be nonsense), since not that many people know what a business jet is. Way too technical. Go and look how many article titles include "business jet". Also oppose "plane" per nom. Too colloquial; oppose "Prigozhin plane" and "Wagner plane". What type of a plane is a "Prigozhin plane"? What type of a plane is a "Wagner plane"? These sound like some special types of aircraft. Support "jet" as the right balance. Oppose "PMC Wagner".—Alalch E. 21:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
    Valid points! Would you support "2023 Wagner Group airplane crash"? (I oppose "jet" as being too informal or slang). — kashmīrī TALK 09:22, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
    Yes, I support 2023 Wagner Group airplane crash. Airplane is fine. Thanks! —Alalch E. 16:56, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
    What type of a plane is a "Prigozhin plane"? My suggestion was "Prigozhin plane crash" as in the plane that Prigozhin was on crashed. Does 1999 Martha's Vineyard plane crash suggest that there is an aircraft called the Vineyard or does it suggest that there is a connection between Martha's Vineyard and a plane crash in 1999? It suggests the later. Same with Prigozhin.
    Besides, we have reliable sources that are using it just fine with no confusion, Wagner 'skull' flag flies over empty Prigozhin plane crash site in Russia. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:42, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Support move to 2023 Wagner Group plane crash per kashmiri and Ericoides. — Goszei (talk) 19:38, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Support move to 2023 Wagner Group airplane crash. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 00:02, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose the suggested move in the nomination (but open to some of the alternatives below). "plane" is an abbreviation for airplane. "jet" is an abbreviation for jet-engine aircraft. Neither of these are slangs, and on the front of colloquialism they rate the same to me. "business jet" imposes an additional qualifier which is irrelevant to the event. If the goal is to avoid confusion with other plane crashes, "2023" clearly does a better job at disambiguation compared to "business jet" (does anyone not editing this article really remember if the downed plane is a business jet or otherwise?). WP:NOYEAR is a naming convention that in practice is mostly cited for historical articles.Ceconhistorian (talk) 06:07, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose for various reasons already discussed. JM2023 (talk) 02:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose A business jet is a plane as already discussed above. And strongly oppose for reasons already mentioned. And anyways, even though the name wagner is widely used to describe the plane crash by the news, yegevny and the founder weren't the only people that died. This is why we've changed so many article titles mentioning famous people in it. And the aircraft was owned by MNT-Aero LLC, not Wagner, it is literally stated in the airticle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aviationwikiflight (talkcontribs) 12:56, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose for reasons already stated above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.21.6.181 (talk) 13:00, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose any proposal that either only puts "Wagner" and not "Wagner Group" (ambiguous) or "Prigozhin" (more notable individuals died) in the title. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 14:53, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose suggested title, but support a move generally. I like something like 2023 Wagner Group jet crash or something to the effect - I don't care about plane vs jet vs airplane but apparently that's important to some people. But in general, the most memorable part about this is the fact that it involves the Wagner Group. Accordingly, the location is only of secondary importance, and it is unlikely to help with navigation (which is the entire point of good titles). A title involving Wagner is going to help people find this, and that should be our priority. ‡ El cid, el campeador talk 19:33, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Support move either to 2023 Wagner Group jet crash / 2023 Wagner Group plane crash OR 2023 PMC Wagner jet crash / 2023 PMC Wagner plane crash. "Business jet" is too long and unneeded as a description. The year has to stay IMO. GreatLeader1945 (talk) 05:11, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose the year needs to stay, and it's a plane at the end of the day, so just keep it simple. Zippybonzo | talk to me | what have I done (he|she|they) 18:38, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Comment I would support either 2023 Wagner Group jet crash or 2023 Wagner Group plane crash, since a consensus seems to have emerged that the word "plane" is acceptable, and either title is better than the current title (I'm glad we seem to have moved past the pointless and awkward inclusion of Tver Oblast). However, "PMC Wagner" still seems pretentious to me, and it's not the WP:COMMONNAME of the organization. Carguychris (talk) 20:50, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose the move to Tver Oblast Wagner business jet crash. The word "plane" is too colloquial and the word "jet" may be misconstrued by a reader as to mean a fighter jet. The term "airplane" is preferable. "Wagner" must be referred to as "Wagner Group" in this context. Strongly Support move to 2023 Wagner Group airplane crash. S V SS Y 23:59, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Comment support> 2023 Wagner Group plane crash but Wagner Group plane crashor 2023 Wagner Group jet crash would be an improvement as well. I think Tver Oblast is too awkward and unrecognizable to many readers and would not be how them search for an article on this crash; but Wagner Group definitely is recognizable, often searched, and should be in the title. Page views in the past 30 days for Wagner Group (not even including all the other Wagner Group articles such as Wagner Group rebellion): 1,004,230; Page views over same period for Tver Oblast: 77,599. This page has 106,115 views over 30 days. I think this is in large part because it is linked from the "In the News" section on the main page which identifies it as the Wagner Group crash. Donner60 (talk) 03:53, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
    THIS. The name has to include "Wagner Group" because "PMC Wagner" is nowhere to be found in a page name. GreatLeader1945 (talk) 07:30, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose But still, the aircraft isn't owned by Wagner, another company owns it so should we put 2023 MNT-Aero LLC plane crash? That sounds weird doesn't it? Even though, yes, most readers would probably recognise the event, the aviation wiki community has generally taken the stance of not naming plane crashes after famous people or by a group. And also, Wagner group is so vague because it's a private military company. Moreover, the pilots weren't part of the wagner group, the flight attendant wasn't part of the wagner group so there's no point. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 11:12, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
    The actual ownership of the jet is immaterial because the overwhelming majority of mainstream sources discuss this crash in the context of the Wagner Group. You say that the aviation wiki community has generally taken the stance of not naming plane crashes after famous people or by a group, yet we have articles titled the Death of Stevie Ray Vaughan, the Wichita State University football team plane crash, and the Lynyrd Skynyrd plane crash. Wagner group is so vague—no it's not, it's the WP:COMMONNAME of a group that was widely covered by the mainstream news media before the crash occurred. Carguychris (talk) 13:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
    Well for the stevie ray crash, the article isn't structured the same way most aviation articles would. Lynyrd skynyrd plane crash, you can see that the article has a second title "Convair CV-240 N55VM crash". For the Wichita state university crash, the title would be too long and most people would recognize it immediately and there isn't another good name for the crash.
    Look at the 2001 marsh harbour plane crash, should we really put 2001 blackhawk international airways cessna 402B crash? For the 2020 Calabasas helicopter crash, should we put this for the title: 2020 Island Express Holdings Inc sirkorsky S-76B helicopter? Both of these crashes were named death of [person], even the title of the jfk jr crash was changed. Even if most people would recognize these titles if we just put the famous stuff, it isn't factually correct and ignores the other dead people. In this day and age, most people would know about the tver oblast plane crash since most people have access to the Internet so they would most likely know immediately what the crash is about.
    So what if the overwhelming majority of news outlets state Wagner Group, that doesn't we should put what they say wether it's correct or false, the aircraft wasn't owned by the wagner group and not all people in the plane were part of the Wagner group. So I say
    • Strongly Oppose and keep the current title.
    Aviationwikiflight (talk) 16:26, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
    you can see that the article has a second title "Convair CV-240 N55VM crash" - That is not correct. That is just the name set in Template:Infobox aircraft occurrence. The creator of the article did it back in 2009, when things were less uniform. Per the template's documentation, the parameter should be Occurrence's commonly-known name, with a note in the section prior to Leave empty unless a custom infobox title is required. An infobox not following the proper format due to an old edit isn't a good counterargument regarding the title.
    In this day and age, most people would know about the tver oblast plane crash since most people have access to the Internet so they would most likely know immediately what the crash is about. Our goal here is to determine the best name for the article for readers. To quote CRITERIA, Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject. There is often more than one appropriate title for an article. In that case, editors choose the best title by consensus based on the considerations that this page explains. Given some of your comments, I would recommend reviewing CRITERIA as it might be helpful to consider regarding your stance.
    So what if the overwhelming majority of news outlets state Wagner Group, this implies that using Wagner in some form would likely meet the Recognizability (a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with ... the subject area will recognize) and Naturalness one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles characteristics of CRITERIA, along with potentially also meeting COMMONNAME. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:11, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
    2020 Island Express Holdings Inc sirkorsky S-76B helicopter crash. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 16:27, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose. List of airliner shootdown incidents demonstrates that plane shootings include years in the title when it is a noncommercial flight without a flight number. Further, I understand the importance of including Wagner in the title, however "Wagner business jet" may cause confusion about Wagner being a business, as discussed previously. MicrobiologyMarcus (talk) 15:21, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose "jet crash" or "business jet crash" or similar. As shown by Super Goku V, "plane crash" is ordinary, common language and not slang or too informal. The type of aircraft is not a very salient descriptor of the event. No opinion at this time on "Wagner Group", "Wagner", "Prigozhin", etc. in the title. Adumbrativus (talk) 06:59, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Support move to 2023 Wagner Group plane crash. Just calling it "2023 [Region] plane crash" does not come after its importance and is not recognisable enough, especially in regards to WP:COMMONNAME and WP:AVTITLE. Zerbrxsler (talk) 20:28, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose anything containing "jet" or "business jet", which are far less formal terms than "plane". Support "Wagner Group plane crash", with or without year, or "Prigozhin plane crash". Un assiolo (talk) 18:43, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose The proposed title sounds kinda unwieldy, how about just renaming it into "2023 Tver Oblast Wagner jet crash"? --Boris Baran - 10:38, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested Move 24 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. closing early per WP:SNOW. (closed by non-admin page mover) The Night Watch (talk) 00:57, 28 September 2023 (UTC)


2023 Wagner Group plane crash2023 Wagner Group Jet Crash – Jet is a better word and it was a Jet. DitorWiki (talk) 04:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.