Talk:2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon

Move to Third Lebanon War

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/the-third-lebanon-war-between-israel-and-hezbollah-has-begun-whats-next/

https://www.jewishpress.com/news/middle-east/lebanon/israel-launches-the-third-lebanon-war/2024/09/30/

https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/09/22/israel-deliberately-raises-stakes-against-hezbollah/

https://anglican.ink/2024/09/26/urgent-letter-from-anglican-bishop-of-cyprus-and-the-gulf-on-the-third-lebanon-war/

https://wavellroom.com/2024/09/04/on-the-brink-of-a-third-lebanon-war-can-israel-overcome-hezbollah-this-time/

Already widely used and technically correct 2604:3D09:1F7F:8B00:38FF:A30A:5A13:E402 (talk) 20:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree with third Lebanon war or maybe just 2024 Invasion of Lebanon. HuntersHistory (talk) 22:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Article title

If this article is to retain the "invasion of Lebanon" part, it should be preceded by "Israeli" for clarity; as far as I can see, "Israel", "Israeli tanks" and other similar terms are universally used by reliable sources. I don't think this is too controversial, but at the moment 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon is a redirect. Nythar (💬-🍀) 20:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, would make more sense. Someone coming across the page wouldn't actually know the invaders until they look at the text. SK55555 (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree. HuntersHistory (talk) 22:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@HuntersHistory@Nythar@SK55555. Our procedures require that if a bold move is reverted then it must be conducted via a formal RM. I have started one below.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 00:03, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Background

A background section should be added once the article's initial edits that are fleshing out the breaking/current events that this article focuses on are done. It should probably include references to immediate events (such as 2024 Lebanon pager explosions, 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike, etc.) and past events (such as 2006 invasion of Lebanon). I know this article is really new, so I do not want to disrupt the current construction occurring. Mason7512 (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 30 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (early close per WP:SNOW) – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

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2024 Israeli ground operation in Lebanon → 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon – Most RS are calling it an "invasion". "Ground operation" is what Israeli govt calls it (therefore WP:POVTITLE), just as the Russian govt called the Russian invasion of Ukraine as a "special operation". Rs using "invasion": GlobeAndMail, Reuters, Washington Post, CTV news, Arab News, MSNBC etc. Most sources that call it a "ground operation" do use scarequotes for it and don't always use their own voice. This also resembles an invasion given the amount of soldiers and tanks pouring into Lebanon. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

More sources using "invasion" in their own voice

"Shortly before the Israeli invasion, the army declared three northern communities near the Lebanese border to be". AP News "This appears to culminate a day of positioning for an Israeli ground invasion of Lebanon." CNN "Israel's widely expected ground invasion of Lebanon appeared to be getting underway early on Tuesday" Reuters "This follows reports of an Israeli ground invasion starting in the South of Lebanon amidst" Al-Ahram

Strong support per nom. Skitash (talk) 23:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong support per nom. Bitspectator ⛩️ 23:42, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong support and suggest speedy move This shouldn't even need to be discussed. Why was the article originally created with an euphemism? A ground operation is an invasion. Examples. Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip 2003 invasion of Iraq, Russian invasion of Ukraine. Viewsridge (talk) 23:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Israel had not officially started an incursion at the time this article was created. Israeli forces briefly entered Lebanon, but the argument that qualifies as an invasion is weak. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 04:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Also important to remember, as The Guardian points out, Israel had characterized its 1982 invasion of Lebanon as a "limited incursion" back then.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong support 'Ground operation' is a euphemism. No matter the scale of this event, it is still an invasion. Khronicle I (talk) 23:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong support agreed, would follow consensus and similar past events (including those also described as "ground operations" or "limited incursions" by Israel and others) Mason7512 (talk) 00:05, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Strong support per WP:SPADE. WillowCity^(talk) 00:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Strong support and speedy move, SNOW, plus this is blatant POV. Ground operation is hopelessly false-neutral voice, like using the word "officer-involved shooting". Needs moving immediately, we can't wait days for doubt to begin to creep in. </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 00:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment Maybe we should call it a "Special Ground Operation" in Lebanon. selfworm^Talk) 00:40, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment – The Ministry of Truth suggests moving this article to 2024 Israeli liberation of Lebanon and moving September 2024 Lebanon strikes to The De-escalation Operation. FunLater (talk) 02:03, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Support, if that's what the sources say, then it makes sense to move it there. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 00:43, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support per nom. FunLater (talk) 00:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong Support per above Waleed (talk) 01:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom rationale. XTheBedrockX (talk) 02:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom. As it is necessary to maintain a neutral and accurate representation of the event. — Ainty Painty (talk) 03:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support HuntersHistory (talk) 03:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong Support: Definitely worthy of calling an invasion now. Article was created when there was confusion over whether Israel was present in Lebanon yet. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 05:09, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, the extent of the operation is still unclear at this point. The CNN are using "ground incursion" and "operation" in their coverage. Galamore (talk) 05:34, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  in it's current state our article says Israel called for evacuation of Beirut for bombing which suggests an extensive incursion, to put it mildly. Zuzu8691 (talk) 08:57, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  Most reliable sources seem to be referring to it as an invasion regardless - besides, this incursion will likely continue to scale anyway. TappyTurtle [talk | contribs] 11:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support a "ground operation" is just the term used by Israel but is far too vague Braganza (talk) 06:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 06:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support, per arguments above. Otherwise, change Wikipedia's policy to adapt all article titles to Kremlin-style euphemisms. Cscescu (talk) 06:59, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom. --Hoben7599 (talk) 07:28, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support as it is an invasion by definition whether or not one supports or opposes it. EAL819 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 09:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support and suggest speedy move consistency with airstrikes page which speaks of invasion of Lebanon. given the consensus and no reason given for current title, i support immediately changing the title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zuzu8691 (talk • contribs) 09:23, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Reliable sources call this an invasion in their own voice. "Ground operation" is a euphemistic term used by the Israeli government and not neutral. Cortador (talk) 09:29, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom. CoaxAndBotany (talk) 09:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom. NHCLS (talk) 10:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  Strong Support per nom. InterDoesWiki (talk) 10:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support per everyone above, and suggest speedy close per WP:SNOW. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 10:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom, this is the naming used overwhelmingly by reliable news sources TappyTurtle [talk | contribs] 11:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

strong support per nom and speedy move — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephan rostie (talk • contribs) 11:57, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I think someone can move it now, its nearly unanimous support Braganza (talk) 12:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Strong support, makes sense to move it now, there's virtually universal consensus - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 12:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment this discussion will need to be closed by a page mover or admin as the new title has edit history. I would but I don't currently have either permission. Aydoh8^[contribs] 12:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  Strong support WP should not use any country's military euphemisms for an invasion however "limited". Makeandtoss (talk) 12:43, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support, per arguments above. Hosein (talk) 12:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom and the discussion above. I would also suggest speedy close per WP:SNOW. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 13:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

More reactions by countries

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/1/us-out-of-step-as-world-reacts-to-israels-ground-offensive-into-lebanon Seems like Japan, the UAE, and the Us have responded now aswell. Rad da writer (talk) 10:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Map of the conflict

Maybe it would be handy to add some kind of map for the conflict? Berobalkan (talk) 11:04, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Since the invasion just started, we dont know yet how the frontline is, once we know, a map will be made Lucasmota0975 (talk) 12:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Background

The current background version is incorrect (eg it claims Hezbollah attacked northern Israel on Oct 8, which is not true). The same incorrect material keeps getting replicated across many articles. There was a consensus version here and I suggest we use that. It is:

Shortly after the onset of the Israel-Hamas war in October 2023, Hezbollah joined the conflict, citing solidarity with Palestinians, which quickly escalated into regular cross-border military exchanges impacting northern Israel, southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights. Hezbollah said it aimed to pressure Israel by forcing it to fight on two fronts. Hezbollah has offered an immediate ceasefire should a ceasefire also happen in Gaza, where 40,000 Palestinians have been killed, majority being women and children. From 8 October 2023 to 20 September 2024, Hezbollah has launched 1,900 cross border attacks, and Israel has launched another 8,300. The fighting killed 564 in Lebanon (including 133 civilians), and 52 in Israel (including 27 civilians), displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon, with significant damage to civilian infrastructure.

After this we'd write about the pager attacks, assassination of Nasrallah, and other bombings. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 11:29, 1 October 2024 (UTC) VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 11:29, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

References