Talk:27 Club/Archive 5

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German singer Alexandra should also be in this list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris_Treitz — Preceding unsigned comment added by Henri2013 (talk • contribs) 12:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Is there a reliable source that mentions her in connection with the "27 Club" (or similar)? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 20:11, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Rapper Seagram

If we're adding rappers, shouldn't rapper Seagram be added. Died at 27, has a wikipedia page. Seagram (rapper) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.175.198.187 (talk) 19:32, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Is there a reliable source that mentions him in connection with the "27 Club" (or similar)? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:55, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Isn't him dying at age 27 connection enough? The 27 Club is for musicians dead at 27. He died at age 27. Therefor he is in the club. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.175.198.187 (talk) 05:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

There were some previous discussions about who should or should not be included in the article, and most editors said that, to be included, a musician should specifically be mentioned in conjunction with the 27 Club (or one of the "club's" other names) by one or more reliable references. See Talk:27 Club/Archive 4#RfC: Should there be two lists of musicians or one, and who should be included?. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 10:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

jeff buckley

died at 27 in memphis — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.228.78.74 (talk) 09:57, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

He was 30 years old when he died. --Marek Koudelka (talk) 15:27, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

my math sucks, sorry — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.228.78.74 (talk) 01:09, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Christian 'Chucho' Benitez

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/29/sport/football/football-christian-benitez/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Ecuador international Christian Benitez, the top scorer in the Mexican league last season, has died suddenly at the age of 27. The striker popularly known as 'Chucho' passed away in the Qatari capital Doha, one day after playing his first game for new side El Jaish. Fellix 13:30, 30 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fellix (talk • contribs)

Valentín Elizalde? Really?

God, please. I'm mexican and I know about music. Yes he was a singer. But in the same club with Hendrix? Cobain? Joplin? Morrison? Winehouse? Serious?. Wierd as "americanistas pamboleros" (Club America -MEX- Soccer fanatics) who want "Chucho" Benitez to be included. Weird. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.156.133.148 (talk) 03:26, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Remove

Can we remove some of the lesser names? The 27 club is widely accepted as music's best dying at that age, not any musician dying at that age. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.28.63.3 (talk) 01:25, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

"Brian Jones, Alan Wilson, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin and Jim Morrison died between 1969 and 1971, although a possible connection between their same death-age was not reported in the public press. Although some relations were occasionally noticed, those rather remained a side note. It was not until the death of Kurt Cobain, about two and a half decades after the last occurred, that the first idea of a "27 Club" was spread in the public perception." Hardly. Even before the death of Cobain people were mentioning the Jimi-Janis-Jim trio pointing out similarities between them, and their death at 27 always came up in conversation. I don't want to sound too dismissive, but back then we didn't need Kurt'd death to notice they all died at 27. In fact we didn't even think about including Kurt in that circle. Cobain might be a demi-god (to many) today, but he wasn't so 20 years ago. Crediting him (or his death) with instilling the "Club 27" idea is silly, sorry but that's just the way it is. 86.41.93.162 (talk) 20:40, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 October 2013

add to the 27 club

• "Rockin' Robin" Roberts December 22, 1967 at 27 years old. Cause of Death: Car Accident.
• Dave Prichard of Armored Saint February 28, 1990 at 27 years old. Cause of Death: Leukemia.
• Johnny Rydh of Strebers January 3, 1992 at 27 Years old. Cause of Death: Car Accident.
• Igor "Chuma" Chumychkin of Alisa April 12, 1993 at 27 years old. Cause of Death: Suicide by jumping out of a window.

MAW1992 (talk) 22:10, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Stfg (talk) 23:27, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Aaliyah?

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaliyah — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.17.197.178 (talk) 07:23, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Not 27 when she died. So fails the criteria right at the start. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:27, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Proof?

The "27 Club" is a rather disgusting concept. Is there any proof that there is a staistical spike at 27? Buddy Holly, Elvis Presley, John Lennon, George Harrison, Stevie Rae Vaughan, etc., etc., died at different ages. To call it a "club" is vulgar. This might gave been an obscure cultural meme, but does it really deserve a wkipedia article? Rather pathetic. Shame on wikipedia.77Mike77 (talk) 15:36, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't the one defining 27 Club; it is a commonly known concept reported by many sources. So yes, it should have an article. It's not up to Wikipedia to determine if it's disgusting or not. And if you read the article you'd see that no, there is no statistical spike at 27. That hasn't stopped the concept. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:10, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Additions

I think Stretch and Orish Grinstead from 702 should be added. B-Machine (talk) 19:59, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I am adding additional relevant and useful information to the body of the page. All the information is sourced in Howard Sounes' book, "27."

For his definitive study of the 27 Club – 27: A History of the 27 Club Through the Lives of Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain and Amy Winehouse - author Howard Sounes conducted a vast survey of 3,463 music industry workers who had died between 1908 and 2012. Sounes discovered a spike of fifty deaths at age 27, naming the ‘Big Six’ as Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison and Kurt Cobain. His book, 27, contains the most detailed information about the club and compares the lives of ‘the Big Six’. While arguing that the age of death is essentially coincidental, Sounes identifies significant common factors between the Big Six that explains why they all died young. Many had a difficult start in life, often with divorced parents, which gave them an unstable childhood. They often developed personality disorders in young adulthood bordering on mental illness. Many were bipolar. They all got into heavy drinking and/ or drug taking early and abused drink or drugs despite warnings. They struggled to cope with the pressures of success and all had a strong self-destructive streak that leads Sounes to argue that they all killed themselves, directly or indirectly. Kllynnclntn (talk) 18:23, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done: It is apparent from the text you write here and elsewhere that you are interested in promoting this book and not in improving the encyclopedia. Please desist. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 20:05, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

27years and 363 days old?

Maria Serrano Serrano[11] November 24, 2001 Plane crash Background singer for Passion Fruit 27 years, 363 days Doesn't this make her 28 when she died? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.253.159 (talk) 13:05, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

There are 365 days in a year.Zdawg1029 (talk) 07:13, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Katy Perry narrowly averted being the next member

I don't seem to have edit privileges for this page. Katy Perry has said in an interview that she was considering suicide after her divorce from Russel Brand. Her song "By the Grace of God" (very beautiful and emotional song, by the way) is about how God ultimately kept her from suicide. The first line of the song specifically mentions that she was 27 at the time. Katy Perry was born on Oct. 25, 1984 and she filed for divorce on Dec. 30, 2011, and the divorce was finalized in 2012, so 27 is her correct age at the time. If Katy Perry had tragically committed suicide that year, she would have unfortnately joined the 27 Club. Would it be appropriate to add how Katy Perry narrowly averted being the next member? Especially since the song specifically mentions that she was 27 at the time. Her Christian background and strong faith in God is what made the difference between joining the 27 club vs hopefully living a long life and remaining an inspiration to many.

(Somebody deleted this for being unsourced. How do I source a song? There are many sources about her considering suicide, including this: http://www.freep.com/article/20131022/ENT04/310220116/

Please do not just delete this, but try to encourage discussion on this topic. Thank you. By the time this could become part of the article, it will include reliable sources. I think that given the eerie considence and the inspiring nature of the story, it would be interesting to somehow include it. 68.193.17.157 (talk) 22:48, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 68.193.17.157 (talk) 09:29, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I think Katy Perry should not be mentioned in the article. The members of the 27 Club -- not an official club, but a phenomenon of popular culture -- are musicians who died at the age of 27. And according to previous discussions on this talk page, for someone to be included in the article there should also be a reference to a source saying that they are a member of the 27 Club. Obviously, and fortunately, Ms. Perry does not qualify. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 03:24, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

"Considering suicide" is pretty far from "narrowly averting" death. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:01, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Could there maybe be a section for singers such as Katy Perry who narrowly avoided becoming a member of the 27 club? Examples would be people (such as Perry) who considered suicide while age 27, or who suffered a serious accident or illness at age 27. 68.193.17.157 (talk) 05:48, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Seriously, if we are going to include "singers who claim that they contemplated suicide" we may as well give up. I remember when Cobain died, they were falling over themselves to claim how they "almost" committed suicide too. There is nothing cooler than a dead rock star, and they all knew it. How cool would it be to be a dead rock start and aged 27?! Well, apart from the inconvenience of being dead, of course. There's always a downside.

Either way, this article is not "List of pop stars who thought about committing suicide", it's about those who actually died, and have been mentioned in connection with the 27 Club in a reliable source. Perry doesn't qualify twice over. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 20:57, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

On top of that cogent explanation, I must note that "contemplating suicide" does not come anywhere close to "narrowly averting" death. Getting hit by a bus and surviving is "narrowly averting" death. A suicide attempt that is unsuccessful is "narrowly averting" death. But thought doesn't kill. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:01, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I still think that Katy Perry's song "By the Grace of God" should somehow be mentioned, since it does seem to hint at the 27 club in a subtle way. The song starts "Was 27 surviving my return to Saturn". From what I read, Saturn is on a roughly 27-29 year cycle, and that tends to be a difficult time in ones life, but also a transition to the next stage of adulthood. Both of those would apply to Perry, although I do not beleive it has anything to do with Saturn. That is a likely explanation as to why so many musicians die at age 27. Furthermore, her ex-husband, Russell Brand (who was the reason for Perry's difficult stage at age 27) nearly died at age 27 due to his drug addiction, and he was close friends with Amy Winehouse (the most recent 27 Club member), and he had expressed a fear of Amy Winehouse being the next member. Since Perry was obviously aware of the 27 club, and the song specifically mentions her age, I think we can safely assume that the song is a subtle reference to the 27 club. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.17.157 (talk) 05:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Kurt Cobain

did not die of heroin OD, was a gunshot wound. would change it but not allowed as account is not confirmed yet. user who did change it seems to be notorious for changing things without explaining why. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.165.82.140 (talk) 14:46, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 15:37, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

"Brian Jones, Alan Wilson, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin and Jim Morrison died between 1969 and 1971, although a possible connection between their same death-age was not reported in the public press. Although some relations were occasionally noticed, those rather remained a side note. It was not until the death of Kurt Cobain, about two and a half decades after the last occurred, that the first idea of a "27 Club" was spread in the public perception." Are you even serious? Can we please - out of respect for all other musicians included here - dissociate the Club 27 article from the Kurt Cobain one? Or, more to the point, can we stop Club 27 for becoming a Kurt Cobain shrine? Well before the rise and death of Cobain people were mentioning the Jimi/Janis/Jim trio pointing out similarities between them, and their death at 27 always came up in conversation. I don't want to sound too dismissive, but back then people didn't need Kurt's death to notice Jimmy Hendrix, Janis Joplin and Jim Morrison all died at age 27. Many didn't even think about including Kurt in that circle, and some still dispute that idea today, as can be clearly seen here. Cobain might be a demi-god today, but he wasn't so the day he died. Hardly anybody thought of him in those terms back then. Crediting him (or his death) with instilling the "Club 27" idea is silly or pure fanboyism. Sorry but that's just the way it is. 86.41.79.239 (talk) 23:25, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Who should be listed

What about Otis Redding? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.24.125.22 (talk) 14:29, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

You all have WAY to many names on this list. If they don't even have a Wiki page, why are they listed here? All I see is a bunch of over zealous edits from people wanting to edit something on Wikipedia, rather than making useful contributions. Who are some of these people? Here is a simple solution. Go to your local Hot Topic, flip through the posters until you find the 27 Club one, and look at the faces on it, and notice which faces are not on it. I was in a band for a few years, if I died several years ago, could someone of added me? By the looks of it, yes, yes they could. There has to be some kind of standard put in place here, at a minimum having their own Wiki page.Zdawg1029 (talk) 07:19, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

There were some previous discussions about who should or should not be included in the article, and most editors said that, to be included, a musician should specifically be mentioned in conjunction with the 27 Club (or one of the "club's" other names) by one or more reliable references. Those references are in the Name column of the table. See Talk:27 Club/Archive 4#RfC: Should there be two lists of musicians or one, and who should be included?, which also has links to other discussions. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 13:39, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Lets break this down a little bit. The 27 club is not an "official" club that has some committee that convenes on a regular basis, or ever for that matter, to debate who is worthy enough to be put into this club, so who decided that the references you are using have the power to include someone in this group? Just because someone died at the age of 27 does not mean they should be included on that list. Just because something is true, doesn't mean it needs to be added. The 27 club is meant for "notable" people, and as I said before, some of those people don't even have a Wiki page, so how are they even close to being notable? It just looks as if you all have lowered the bar down to your ankles at who can get into this club. You're basically allowing any nobody who was in a band and died at 27 in.Zdawg1029 (talk) 15:51, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

In the previous discussion, most editors said that to be included here a musician must have died at 27 and have been mentioned in a reliable, third-party reference as a member of the 27 Club or one of its other names such as the Forever 27 Club. Another approach would be to require that the musician, or at least the band that they were in, be notable in the sense of having their own Wikipedia article, whether or not they were mentioned as a 27 Club member in a third-part reference, and in fact I was advocating for that myself, but a majority of other editors didn't think that was the best approach, as you can see by reading through the previous discussion(s). Note also the the General Notability Guideline is about whether a subject (for example the 27 Club) is notable enough to have its own Wikipedia article, not about what material should be included in an article -- see WP:NNC. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 16:36, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Mudwater above. However, I'm not convinced that some of the sources are that "reliable", in that they are list sites devoted to the concept, and have an interest in continually adding names regardless. (e.g. the27club.the27s.com). Strictly speaking, I'd prefer it if all the cites for an individual "members" were sources discussing that single individual, rather than the sources devoted to discussing the "club", with a list of little more than names. I think the former establishes both the individual's notability and the fact they are also considered a "member", far better than the latter. The sources devoted to "the club" are more suited to citing the overall concept than individual members.

I also suspect that some of the "list" sources have used Wikipedia as a source in past years, so we've got a self-referential loop, but impossible to prove where and when, so what can you do? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 22:05, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I suggest "the27s.com" is not at all a reliable source; the entire purpose of the website seems to be to promote a book. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 16:18, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, if we're re-opening the discussion on who should be included.... I suggest that we include any musician who died at age 27, and who is notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article. Or if other editors agree, we could also include those who don't have their own article but who were in a band that has its own article, e.g. Sean Patrick McCabe from Ink & Dagger. As WP:NNC also says, "The notability guidelines do not apply to article or list content (with the exception that some lists restrict inclusion to notable items or people)," so we could make this one of those lists. There are several reasons to do this. (1) A big part of the 27 Club is the concept of musicians dying at age 27, whoever they are, but there's no definitive list of them, because the Club is nothing official, it's just a concept of popular culture. (2) There's not really a good way to figure out which sources are reliable or not reliable, in the conventional Wikipedia sense, as evidenced by the lack of agreement about this point in previous discussions. With a lot of Wikipedia articles, reliable, third-party references are used to establish the facts, but with the 27 Club, there really are no "facts" in the sense of determining who is or is not a member. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:43, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Which is why this article shouldn't exist except perhaps as pointer to another site that does not have Wikipedia's requirements. But I lost that fight years ago. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 02:50, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Opps sorry I opened this discussion and forgot to come back to it. But as one of you said above, as I did, the 27 club is not an official club with an official committee that meets. And yes some of the sources are not good. Who came up with the guidelines as to who can be included in the club? Is it any musician dying at 27 or is it notable musicians dying at 27. I guess you can make an argument for both. In that case, If you are trying to merely point out the number of musicians that have died at 27, notable or not, I think it should be separated into a table of the obvious, notable musicians, the ones everyone knows, the ones that everyone associates as being part of the club, the ones that you actually see their faces on any 27 club poster. And then make a second table for non-notable musicians just to stress the point if that is what you are going for. You can call the first table "recognized members". If that idea doesn't tickle your fancy, since so many of us can't seem to agree what a reliable source is for this or who deserves to be on this list, is to actually go through and get consensus. But to me, leaving it how it is now is frankly stupid. I understand it is a club most people don't want to be in, but throughout my lifetime, I have only seen certain people associated with this club, and all of them were for lack of a better word "deserving" to be in the club. Some listed there frankly don't deserve to be in this club. But that comes back to the point of there is no committee that meets to decide who is worthy, because of that, a lot of the sources are basically someones opinion, so that's why I say we come to a consensus on who and who should not be included. If you don't like either idea, come up with something else.Zdawg1029 (talk) 17:13, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Well actually now that I think about it, getting consensus would take a lot of work, but something needs to be done here. Not everyone should be there.Zdawg1029 (talk) 17:28, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I would really request that your read through the previous discussion about this at Talk:27 Club/Archive 4#RfC: Should there be two lists of musicians or one, and who should be included?. That also has links to more previous discussions, and feel free to review those also. As part of all that you will see that there used to be two lists, which, after much talk, got combined into the one list. You will also see that a majority of editors favored including only musicians who were mentioned as part of the 27 Club by reliable references, whatever those may be. As I said in my last post, I'm proposing that we change all that, and have (in one list) all notable musicians who died at age 27, with "notable" meaning that they have their own Wikipedia article. Or, if most editors prefer, "notable" could also include musicians who don't have their own article, but were in a band that has its own article, such as Sean Patrick McCabe from Ink & Dagger. Thanks, and as always other editors are encouraged to join the discussion. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 18:49, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Why even bother? the27s.com does this all better without our rules - no attempt at notability seems necessary, just a death at age 27. This isn't what Wikipedia is for; a simple category would suffice if no guidelines other than "has an article and died at 27 and is a musician" is the criterion for inclusion here. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 20:32, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Going through and reading all previous discussions on the topic sounds time consuming. I'm not going to even make a request at this point, just point out the list seems awfully long and filled with nobodies. It sort of looks like the only requirement to join this club is be a musician and die at 27, that is pretty much the same prerequisites a lot of those websites used as sources appear to be using. It looks more like they are just reporting musicians that dies at 27 as opposed to who actually belongs in the club. Cheers! Zdawg1029 (talk) 05:46, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

The thing is that if we just decide on a criteria of "is musician" and "died aged 27" and "is WP notable", then the article is no longer discussing the concept of "27 Club", it is creating it. We can't be doing this. This is why we need to go by reliable sources. The sources decide who qualifies. The sources decide who is notable enough. The sources decide who "deserves" it. Otherwise we are all indulging in both original research and opinion. Creating a two tier "league tables", like what used to be in the article, is exactly what we don't want, as that is entirely based on POV. Who decides who is "recognized", who decides who is "deserving"? It's all just opinion and we end up with edit wars as someone gets pushed up and down between the two.

And if we are to rely on the sources we need to be sure of their accuracy and neutrality. Using sources that have a vested interest in expanding "membership" to pull in readers are questionable. But ultimately, who is in the club and who isn't is a matter of the sources' opinion, and doesn't matter nearly as much as the concept itself. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

You make a good point, what about adding something like this to the opening paragraph or something similar to this:

"Jimi Hendrix, Janice Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain and Brian Wilson are the most commonly associated artists recognized with the club, however many musicians have also claimed membership."

Like I said, just an idea, those are the 5 people everyone associates with the club, that is who is on all the posters of the club, so to me it seems like it might be worth adding to make note of in the beginning. Like I have said many times, it is not a real club, but come on, that's who everyone thinks of.Zdawg1029 (talk) 21:24, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you mean Brian Jones, not Brian Wilson. Other than that, those are the five people most associated with the club. Can we find one or preferably multiple references that say that? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:35, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Opps yes I did mean Brian Jones, not Wilson. Can we find references that refer to those 5 as the people most associated with the club? I would imagine so, there has got to be somewhere reliable that says that, mainly because it's true. Do you know how many hippie friends I have with the same poster on their wall? Enough. When I get sometime later I will try and find some.Zdawg1029 (talk) 22:57, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

No problem with the article saying this, if a good source can be found saying it. Otherwise what's to stop anyone deciding that they think that Amy Winehouse in also most commonly associated with it? What makes their opinion less valid than anyone else's? I suspect you'll find a generational split on the matter, every decade has its own favourite dead pop star. So who is to decide which is most commonly referenced? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:32, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree, I will look for a source that says that when I get some free time, which should be soon. Even though we can't add it unless a reliable source says it, still, we all know who the real members of that club are, and they do not include Amy Winehouse.Zdawg1029 (talk) 21:52, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Zdawg1029 what is your goddamn problem with Amy Winehouse. She is a member of the club there are fucking books that list her as a member in fact the latest book on the subject was called "Amy Winehouse and the 27 club" she was an icon of music who directly inspired the likes of Adele, Lady Gaga, Jessie J, Paloma Faith, Duffy and many others a whole generation of incredibly successful female performers, she is credited with kicking off a third British invasion in America, Alexis Petrdis a major music critic said that "almost 10 years after Back to Blac people are still buying albums made in its sound" she was praised by the likes of the Rolling Stones, Tony Bennett and Quincy Jones with whom she also worked with and she broke records in terms of sales and critcal acclaim and awards. But what a couple of snobby music fans on Wikipedia don't consider her worthy enough so she gets left out when she is clearly a musical icon and there have been books, literally millions of articles and websites that link her to the club. You can't just edit her out cause of your snobby little preferences. Personally I think Kurt Cobain and Janis Joplin aren't in Amy's league as either songwriters (nothing Kurt did can come close to Love is a Losing Game a song you could imagine Frank Sinatra, Dinah Washington or Billie Holiday singing easy) and certainly not as vocalists. Amy's voice is a billion times more powerful and distinctive than Cobains and I am a fan of all three unlike you I'd wager who has probably listened to one or two Amy Winehouse songs if even that. But unlike you I am not going to say "Kurt Cobain and Janis Joplin do not deserve to be in the club because I wouldn't rate them as highly as Amy". Unlike you I can appreciate that Kurt Cobain means a lot to other people and that wow people might have an opinion on an artist that's different to mine which you don't seem to be able to have about Amy. Amy Winehouse is associated with the club, like it or not since she passed which is now over two years ago people including bloggers, journalists and authors of websites and bestselling books still associate her as a member of the club in fact perhaps arguably more than anyone else now as she is the most recent member. Articles will often list her first because her death was the most recent. So you can stop trying to get her taken off the page cause you have some kind of little snobbery about her and just accept that to millions of people including I might add Alice Cooper, Paul McCartney, Bette Midler, Brian May, Annie Lennox, Lady Gaga, Adele, Beyonce, The Rolling Stones, Tony Bennett, Bryan Ferry, George Michael and Ringo Starr she WAS a musical icon. The only person who said she wasn't was Gene Simmons who also said Cobain wasn't an icon either for the same reasons too small a body of work which is of course ridiculous as anyone can be an icon with a small body of work as long as its good like Bruce Lee and Robert Johnson for instance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.50.120.210 (talk) 00:53, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Wow I guess someone clearly has a crush on Amy Winehouse. That is an awfully long response to essentially say you think she should be in the club. But I guess you have a problem reading or comprehending what you read. Where did I say I have a problem with Amy Winehouse? No where. What I actually said was, and if you read this you would know, was "who do most people associate with the club". Did I say she didn't deserve to be in the club? No. I said who do most people associate with the club, and contrary to your strong opinion, most people do not think of Amy Winehouse at first when they think of this club. Most people, when the subject of this club is brought up, associate the five I mentioned before, not Amy Winehouse. So, maybe she does deserve to be in this club, but as I just said, she is not the first person to come to mind when this subject comes up. I proposed adding the sentence "Jimi Hendrix, Janice Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain and Brian Wilson are the most commonly associated artists recognized with the club, however many musicians have also claimed membership." You see the second part of the sentence there? What does it say? Your nose appears to be a little brown at the moment, you might want to wipe it off.Zdawg1029 (talk) 01:23, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Zdawg if I offended you yeah I guess I did go into fanboy mode a bit too much, but in my defense there was a whole big debate that went on like this last year about who should be included and it was all stuff about how so and so isn't in the same league as the others here which was ridiculous as we had guys who didn't even have their own wikipedia page being included but not amy winehouse? but I can see what you mean now and sorry about the misunderstanding. Still she is still associated as a member of the club probably more than any other NOT because she is the most famous, but because she is the most recent. Most articles you see about the 27 club in papers do list her as the first one simply because she only died 2 years ago where as Jim Morrison despite obviously being a bigger figure in the history of music died 40 years ago. So for now at least Amy is very associated with the club and even if you do find one article by a guy who says so and so are more associated it doesn't matter as I could find you hundreds more that say Amy is more asociated. Also as someone else said it can be a generational thing too as to whose most associated with the club. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.111.15 (talk) 15:53, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I've found 2 more 27 club victims. 1st one is Monkey Black (Grenadian rapper, stabbed) 2nd is one of the members of The Yellow Dogs (some Iranian, shot.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.80.198 (talk) 17:25, 5 May 2014‎ (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2014

Hello,

My name is Kamila. A very good friend of mine, Soroush Farazmand, passed away tragically last year. He was an extremely talented musician and I'm hoping to add his name to the 27 club. Please let me know if this is attainable. KNURI (talk) 00:30, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. 123chess456 (talk) 01:42, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello, Kamila. To explain a bit more about what 123chess456 is referring to: There were some previous discussions about who should or should not be included in the article, and most editors said that, to be included, a musician should specifically be mentioned in conjunction with the 27 Club (or one of the "club's" other names) by one or more reliable references. Those references are the footnotes in the Name column of the table. See Talk:27 Club/Archive 4#RfC: Should there be two lists of musicians or one, and who should be included?, which is a rather lengthy discussion about all this, and which also has links to other discussions. So, it's not a reflection on how talented or likeable a musician was, it's just a matter of finding a reliable, third-part reference (or better yet several of them) that says that they are a member of the 27 Club. By the way, Mr. Farazmand's band has its own Wikipedia article: The Yellow Dogs. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 03:31, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 June 2014

I suggest that the phrase "unusually common" be replaced with "unusually frequent". "Frequent" can be unusual, but "common" can not. Dormann (talk) 19:06, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: Welcome and thanks for wanting to improve the article. "Unusually common" is perfectly good English and means "more common than usual" or "more common than one would expect". "Common" generally is used in places, like this, in which one is discussing a distribution. "Frequent" is used at places in which the short duration between events is being discussed. Seven is a common result for a roll of two dice, and, so, seven is a frequent result when dice are being rolled. Regards, Older and ... well older (talk) 19:48, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2014

"drug and alcohol abuse, or other violent means such as homicide or suicide." remove other within this part of the article that is quoted. 68.32.161.174 (talk) 17:21, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Done. Good point. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:30, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Kami

Kami (February 1, 1972 – June 21, 1999), was a Japanese musician best known as drummer for the visual kei rock band Malice Mizer. He died on June 21, 1999 in his sleep of a subarachnoid hemorrhage at the age of 27. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.36.138.251 (talk) 01:49, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 02:24, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami_(musician) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.36.138.251 (talk) 10:19, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2014

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami_(musician) kindly add this drummer who is part of influencial visual kei band in japan.. 144.36.138.251 (talk) 10:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 18:48, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

@144.36.138.251: I understand that you're requesting that Kami be added the table of 27 Club members in the main article, since Kami was a popular musician who died at the age of 27. But, based on previous discussions, most editors who work on this article think that someone should only be added if there are one or more reliable references that actually mention that a musician is a member of the 27 Club. For a bit more of an explanation, please see what I wrote above, at Talk:27 Club#Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2014. If you have any questions, just post them here in this talk page section. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:18, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Nicole Bogner

Hello. There's an austrian metal band, Visions of Atlantis. Nicole Bogner was their first singer. She died at age 27, from an undisclosed illness. Born: 1984.03.22. Died: 2012.01.06.

 Done I've added Nicole Bogner, with a reference. Remember, folks, based on a previous discussion, most editors say that, to be added to the article, it's not enough that a popular musician died at age 27. There must also be at least one reliable, third party reference associating them with the 27 Club (or a similar name for the same thing such as the Forever 27 Club). — Mudwater ^(Talk) 12:06, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Joe Henderson

Pity, that rules out Joe Henderson then. Rothorpe (talk) 01:49, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Apparently not! — Mudwater ^(Talk) 02:08, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh, good. Will you do the honours or shall I? Rothorpe (talk) 17:39, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Be my guest. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:34, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Done, except for the arithmetic. Rothorpe (talk) 23:58, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I added his age, using the usual "Age in years and days" template. Fortunately the source also listed his dates of birth and death. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:23, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Rothorpe (talk) 01:20, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Source or cn tag needed

A sentence in the lead needs a "citation needed" tag (or a source): "The number of musicians who have died at this age and the circumstances of many of those deaths have given rise to the idea that premature deaths at this age are unusually common." I've known about the 27 club for many years and talked to many others about it. I have never once known anyone who thought that premature deaths at age 27 are common (including for musicians). Without a source, this sentence is speculation by the person who wrote it. Thanks. 75.177.156.78 (talk) 01:10, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Done -Anupmehra -Let's talk! 19:57, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Where is Mike Bloomfield?

Dead at age 27, and ranked by Rolling Stone as the 22nd greatest guitarist of all time, Mike Bloomfield's omission here is startling.

I don't want to screw up the page by trying in my feeble way to edit it, so hope and trust that someone can, please, rectify this.

Thanks! Gaussgauss (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 21:22, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

1943-81, he belongs in the 37 Club, if Wikipedia is correct. Rothorpe (talk) 21:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Good lord! I am SO embarrassed! Sorry to trouble you . . . (and thanks). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaussgauss (talk • contribs) 10:03, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

No problem. Happy editing! Rothorpe (talk) 17:02, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

First sentence

The opening sentence, "The 27 Club is a group of popular musicians who died at age 27" is misleading. The word "group" suggests people who were associated with one another, while many of these people were not even contemporaries. Even to describe Jones, Hendrix, Joplin and Morrison as a group would be misleading, as it would suggest that their deaths were somehow related, such as in a suicide pact. It should be rephrased as "The 27 Club is a term that refers to a number of popular musicians who died at age 27." 86.44.192.221 (talk) 08:19, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

 Done - it could easily be misunderstood - Arjayay (talk) 10:20, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2014

Senzo Meyiwa was killed yesterday, he was a soccer player, born 9-24-1987, died 10-26-2014, age: 27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senzo_Meyiwa 71.246.236.144 (talk) 01:55, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

 Not done The 27 Club is a group of popular musicians who died at age 27 - Arjayay (talk) 08:12, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Why is it limited to musicians?

There are some notable people that died at the age of 27 including:

• Jean Michel Basquiat (artist)
• Pat Tillman (former NFL player killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan - also subject of major book by John Krakauer)
• Andrew Cunanan (serial killer - famous for killing Versace)
• Johnathan Brandis (child/teen TV star famous for SeaQuest DSV)

Heycarlos (talk) 22:55, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Also, Masaccio the Florentine painter from the 1400's.

Because of the unusual number of notable musicians who died at that age. Rothorpe (talk) 00:37, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

@Heycarlos: It's not up to us as Wikipedia editors. The 27 Club is a "real" phenomenon of pop culture, that only includes popular musicians. As the article says, "The "club" has been repeatedly cited in music magazines, journals and the daily press." This originated when Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison, all of whom were very famous at the time, died at the age of 27 over a two-year period from 1969 to 1971. The article makes it sound like the idea didn't catch on until Kurt Cobain died, but actually it originally became a "thing" back when those four died. Anyway, if you look at the references for the article, you'll see that they're all about musicians. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I've tightened that sentence up a bit. Certainly I'd never heard of the "Club" before Cobain died, despite noticing some of the coincidences; I hope the balance is now about right. Rothorpe (talk) 02:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. That's an improvement. But really I think this whole 27 Club thing started back then, gradually died down for a while, and then was sort of revived when Cobain died. The problem is finding references to demonstrate this, since popular culture phenomena from the early 70s are much less well documented on the internet, compared to more recent events. I'll try to find more if I get a chance. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 03:21, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I think the original question has arisen, because the list has already been diluted by an excessive number of musicians who were not particularly notable; certainly not notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article. This is, therefore, becoming a "list of musicians who died at 27" which should be a separate article, or list, than the "27 Club".
I know the inclusion criteria have been discussed before, but I think that they need re-considering, as the article is wandering off topic, and being dominated by an over-long list, including many non-notables. Personally, I think the article should be limited to the original 4; Jones, Hendrix, Joplin & Morrison, plus Cobain and Winehouse, but at the very least, the list should be trimmed of all names without their own WP articles. - Arjayay (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

@Arjayay:I'll reply in a new section below. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 13:08, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Who should be included

Once again the question has arisen of who should be included in the article as the members of the 27 Club. There have been some previous discussions about this, and the consensus was to include any popular musicians who had died at age 27 *and* were explicitly associated with the 27 Club (or a similar name such as the Forever 27 Club) in a reliable, third-party reference -- the reference being reliable and third-party in the conventional Wikipedia sense. As part of these previous discussions, most editors also thought that it was not necessary that the "club member" have their own Wikipedia article -- and indeed the general notability guideline says, "These notability guidelines only outline how suitable a topic is for its own article or list. They do not limit the content of an article or list." (Emphasis copied from the guideline.) I would request that, before taking up a different position, editors read through the discussion at Talk:27 Club/Archive 4#RfC: Should there be two lists of musicians or one, and who should be included?. At the beginning of that section are links to four more archived discussions on the same topic, and I'd encourage anyone to look at those also. Thanks. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 13:26, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Mudwater, thanks for the summary. I know how annoying it is when people re-raise things - although that was three years ago, and articles, expectations and guidelines change and evolve.
As I stated above "I know the inclusion criteria have been discussed before" but I think they need re-considering, as the article is wandering off topic, and being dominated by an over-long list.
The list will continue to grow, as more 27 year old musicians die, and the importance, and relevance, of the original "club" will be further diluted - whilst, as shown by the requests above, we are getting more requests for non-musicians, as the real meaning of the 27 Club is being obscured.
Your citation, above, refers to "how suitable a topic is for its own article or list". Having established a list is suitable, however, the inclusion criteria for that list is at WP:NLIST which states:-

"Inclusion in lists contained within articles should be determined by WP:Source list, in that the entries must have the same importance to the subject as would be required for the entry to be included in the text of the article"

Do these names meet that criteria? - IMHO no, we would not include most of them in the text of the article, as is evidenced by the fact that we haven't; So they appear to fail the WP:NLIST inclusion criteria. - Arjayay (talk) 14:58, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

It hasn't been necessary to include the less-famous musicians in the text of the article because they're already included in the table of members, so they don't fail WP:NLIST. Taking them out would make the article worse instead of better, because the 27 Club is about the perceived, pop cultural phenomenon of many popular musicians dying at age 27, and not just the most famous ones. The text of the article certainly has room for improvement, as recently discussed above, and it already focuses the most on the approximately six most famous members -- Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, and Amy Winehouse. (Or whoever, because the article doesn't have to -- some would say should not -- decide which people are the main or most famous or most important members.) "P.S." I would sincerely ask you to read the previous discussion. It's kind of long, but various editors talked about a lot of these points, and other good points, and I think you would find it quite relevant. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 15:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I have, indeed, read the, extremely long, previous discussions, which is why I hesitated to re-raise it, and stated that it (the last main discussion) was three years ago.
One of us (quite possibly me) is, however, mis-understanding WP:NLIST - My understanding is not that they don't need to be mentioned in the text because they are in the list, but they should only be in the list if they "have the same importance to the subject as would be required for the entry to be included in the text", which IMHO they do not. - Arjayay (talk) 15:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the previous discussion was long all right, so thanks for reading it. But the members currently in the table do have the same importance to the subject as would be required for the entry to be included in the text. That is, they are, according to third-party references, members of the 27 Club -- a pop-cultural concept that many popular musicians have died at age 27. The article is much better if they're all mentioned, by being in the table. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 17:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't agree that they have that much importance, but am happy to agree to differ, let's close this and move on. - Arjayay (talk) 17:16, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. And if other editors want to give their opinions here, so much the better. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 19:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Robert Johnson

Robert Johnson seems like he'd be a good addition to this page. Mgamini 20 November 2014 (UTC)

He already is on the article. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:32, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Changing the sequence of artists in the table

I suggest changing the sequence of the artists in the table to put the better known ones first. For this I recommend putting each name into Google and seeing how many results that gives. So as a preliminary example, I have done the following:

• Jimi Hendrix gives 31 million results
• Kurt Cobain gives 20.1 million results
• Janis Joplin gives 14 million results
• Alexandre Levy gives 4.12 million results
• Nat Jaffe gives 461 thousand results
• and so on ...

Mydoghasworms (talk) 19:54, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Counting google hits is original research and not really a good indication of what's best known. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 00:45, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Can you perhaps suggest a better way that is as objective? The other option is to really trim down the list to a few examples that fit the profile of "pop culture" artists who appear in publications that can be cited and contain articles relating to this specific topic. I think the list goes a bit overboard if you add every single known musician who died at the age of 27. If you could limit the list to about 5 or 8, the sequence is not as important. --Mydoghasworms (talk) 13:04, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Escape Orbit, trying to rank the musicians by who is better known would be original research. As for who should be included, please review the section by that name that's higher up on this talk page. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 13:44, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Personally I'd be content to remove the lot. Keeping a members list isn't the purpose of this article, it's explaining the concept. So the "original" members and a few other notable examples would suffice. Unfortunately people will keep adding more. We've already been through mistaken attempts to have two classes of membership, determined by perceived worthiness. That caused nothing but disputes, and I suspect that ranking members would end up the same. Date of death is the most factual and sensible way. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 15:51, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Maybe that would be a good idea. Because people are now making up their own 27 Club by just adding people to the list, and that removes credibility from the article. The article should really be about the historical concept of this "club" as has been purported in pop media, citing the examples that actually appeared in the relevant articles, rather than a list of people; I agree with you there as well Mydoghasworms (talk) 12:16, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Fully agree the table should be removed or very heavily restricted, as my attempt to re-open discussion in Who should be included above. - Arjayay (talk) 12:39, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Not really, because the table documents who the "members" of the club are, as stated by third-party sources . Therefore we're not making anything up, we're just documenting what others have said. And who is actually in this club is an important part of the 27 Club concept. So, as per the previous consensus about this, over several different discussions, the table should stay the way it is now. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Do we really need 50 examples for people to understand the concept? It's not that complex an idea. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:23, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

The purpose of the "People identified as being in the 27 Club" table is not to provide enough examples to make the concept understandable. The purpose is to list all the members of the 27 Club, as determined by third-party references and not by ourselves. Many readers of this article would want to see this list. Again, please refer to Talk:27 Club/Archive 4#RfC: Should there be two lists of musicians or one, and who should be included? for a full-on lengthy discussion of this question, which, as the name of the section suggests, was also a Request For Comment to the larger editing community. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:44, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm aware of that conversation. I was in it. And it focussed on whether there should be two lists, or one, and who should be in them. Decisions made 3 years ago do not say that that we cannot continue to improve this article. The purpose of this article is not to list all members of the 27 Club, and not to provide a cited authoritative list of "members". "The Club" does not exists. It is an idea, not a reality. There is no official list of members and no one gets to determine who is, or isn't in it. Just because one source suggests it, it doesn't make it fact. So all our list can be is a list of examples, as suggested by others. I would suggest that, as a list of examples, it's starting to get over long. How exactly do the last two entries in the list add to the reader's understanding? How about the last 10? The reader does not need all these names, most of whom are of people with little notability, to understand the concept. If we want a "list of musicians who died aged 27 and were associated with the 27 Club", then I would suggest that a category would be a better way of doing this. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:38, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I think I get what you're saying, but in my view the article should provide the list of club "members", even though the club itself is only a popular culture concept. As I said, I'm sure our readers want to see that, and perhaps more to the point that seemed to be the consensus of the Request For Comment three years ago. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:48, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

power ranger yellow ranger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuy_Trang — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.92.85.254 (talk) 06:01, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

not cited, not a musician. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:27, 28 April 2015 (UTC)