Talk:27 Club/Archive 7

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where is achik spin?

can someone put achik spin in the 27 club, please. he was a malaysian singer and had passed away in 2010 by the age 27. Sippycup (talk) 07:03, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Here's a reference associating Mr. Spin with the 27 Club. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:23, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

 Done I have added Achik Spin to the list, here. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:18, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 January 2017 (Henry Ragas entry)

There seems to be an error at the table entry for Henry Ragas:

Stating age as in stead of 28 years, 48 days (birth/death dates from Henry Ragas page)

This change in turn shows that he was 28 years old at death, and thus should not be in this list. To corroborate this: Neither of the 2 references in this entry (ref. 25 and 26) show any reference to him. Tnvaessen (talk) 12:14, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

 Done I have removed the recently-added entry from the list, for the two reasons you mentioned. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:36, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 January 2017

Fix Henry Ragas age in the table "Identified members". Currently it shows "-1,866 years, -58127 days". It should display "27 years 48 days". Skyjur (talk) 14:53, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Done DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 15:10, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing the table. But, there would seem to be two reasons to remove the recently-added entry for Henry Ragas (as indicated in the previous thread, #Semi-protected edit request on 9 January 2017 (Henry Ragas entry)). (1) The two cited references do not associate Mr. Ragas with the 27 Club, and (2) based on the birth and death dates in his Wikipedia article, he was 28 years old when he died. I am therefore going to delete that entry. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:31, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

James Laurence of Friendzone

On the Deaths in January 2017 list, I added James Laurence, one-half of the instrumental hip hop duo Friendzone. Laurence was reported dead by Fact (UK magazine) on 30 January 2017 here (http://www.factmag.com/2017/01/30/james-laurence-friendzone-died/). I used the source from Pitchfork Media here (http://pitchfork.com/news/71236-aap-rocky-yung-lean-producer-james-laurence-dead-at-27/) He was 27; however, I am unable to find: birth and death dates for Laurence from a reliable source; and a cause of death from a reliable source. Also, I was debating whether or not he was notable enough to appear on this list. He did co-produce (alongside his partner Dylan Reznick) a song for A$AP Rocky from his debut studio album and is credited with developing a style of hip hop known as cloud rap. I would greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions. Thank you. WereWolf (talk) 16:39, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

@WereWolf: By previous consensus, someone can be added to the list if there's a third-party reference associating them with the 27 Club. (But reliable birth and death dates would help.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:49, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

I've taken James Laurence out of the list, here, because I can't find an appropriate reference associating him with the 27 Club. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 08:50, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Add Thuy Trang to this article

Thuy Trang was an actress on Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers in which she played Trini Kwan. She got into a car accident on September 3, 2001 at age 27. I believe that she should be added. Nickbrock123 (talk) 20:52, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

 Not done For the most simplest answer, no because she is an actress, not a musician which is what this list is for. Donnie Park (talk) 20:11, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the criteria is that a source should make the association between death and "club", not Wikipedia. The definition for the club may have started out with musicians , but reliable sources indicate that it has broadened since. Is there a source that can be shown to do this? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 20:16, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Cross about Cross?

Why are we citing Charles R. Cross as a source for a "statistical spike"? In the absence of a source for actual statistical data, his statement that there is a statistical spike is just conjecture; he's not a statistician, and putting his conclusion on an equal basis with the actual research by real scientists is undue weight. It's possible that he is citing some real research, as opposed to anecdotal observations. Otherwise, he's not a reliable source regarding statistics. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 15:52, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Ria Bartok

Ria Bartok is a german-born french musician (singer). dob: 28 january 1943 dod: 2 march 1970 (age 27) cause: accidential fire at her home — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.232.244.125 (talk) 18:17, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2017

I (or another person) need to add Orish Grinstead (Former member of US girl group 702). Born 2nd June 1980. Died 20th April 2008 of kidney failure and cancer complications at the age of 27 Yacoblol (talk) 14:48, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

 Done, here. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:07, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

song called 27

machine gun kelly made a song on his album called 27. it includes lyrics such as: if i must go and die at 27, then at least i know i died a legend. i would like to add this to the song refrence section of the wiki page. Tylersschool (talk) 18:11, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: the lyrics seem ambiguous. To another person, the phrase could also mean "dead at age 27." jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 01:07, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 September 2017

Hello You should remove the entry for Valentin Elizalde singer, he might died at 27 but he is not related to the lifestyle or music contribvution of the famous members like Cobain or Morrisson. I´m from mexico and I KNOW wht Im talking about for this request anad I also know about rock ant other genres. He was a banda singer (a variation from european band style) and was far from freedom and other ideas of the members. He has no merits to be related to such Icons as Janis or Jones or Robert johnson. even in mexico he is not recognized as someone important in the music or with a legacy. 189.216.97.221 (talk) 00:44, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: There is a source for including Mr. Elizalde on this list and I am not inclined to remove him based on an argument which amounts to "I don't like him". —KuyaBriBri^Talk 02:19, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Moved new section to talk page

If this new section is to remain it needs a lot of work

There is total different perspective about the 27 Club by the situation the polymath Rolando Nuztas have experience. At the age of 22 just as a DJ have get it home as was been chased by mexican hitman. A lot of child on Albania suffers this issue due to a cultural problem called Gjakmarrja. After 5 years of involunter cloister the DJ has became a multi-project producer and an anthropologist. The polymath has create Liber Abaci Records with the sublabel 22 July Records for EDM Federal Reserve Records for alternative music. Also Rolando Nuztas has archive a variety of intelectual contributions like music and visual arts using Golden Ratio and Silver ratio, a new or unxplore rhythm system named Kappa Rhythmic Units, a new mesurement called SPB (step per beat) that can be used only in the performing art of the fashion runway toghether with an EDM DJ, the secret of the pyramids using the dynamo theory, the truth about the ancient antigravity system using the ancient solfeggio scale, a new gravity and black hole theory; also a variety of conspiracy, teology, quantum, genetic, pseudoscience and pseudoarcheaology theories & the a new way to play association football named Fibonacci Football. At the age of 27 as a polymath Rolando Nuztas cloud get away to scape from Guadalajara, Mexico to Cancun for the 2013 christmas to live again.

References

Carptrash (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

I re-removed the new paragraph from the article, here. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 04:04, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

I also removed this paragraph, hopefully the editor joins the discussion here instead of inserting it again. Greyjoy ^talk 05:37, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

And I re-re-removed it, together with all the other instances about what "Mexican polymath Rolando Nuztas" did in other articles. This editor seems to have only one single purpose here, and it needs to stop. See User talk:Nuztas1986#Please stop promoting yourself. Next stop is wp:ANI. - DVdm (talk) 09:21, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2017

Add Cody Ko to the list. Died by to much clout Exmalee (talk) 17:20, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

 Not done. Joke? - DVdm (talk) 19:01, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

I am proposing

that musicians who are not blue links but are associated with bands or acts that ARE blue links be removed from the list. The list is about individuals, not bands, so to be on the list a person should be notable, as indicated by being a blue link. Carptrash (talk) 21:43, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose, per WP:NNC. The contents of an article, or the individual entries of a list, do not need to meet the Wikipedia criteria for notability. Only the overall subject of the article -- in this case, the 27 Club itself -- must be notable. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:35, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

So you @Mudwater:, as per your rule, don't think that even the band needs to be notable? Carptrash (talk) 22:45, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Correct! Not even the band needs to be notable. But by previous consensus on this article's talk page, there has to be an appropriate third-party reference, referring to the person as a member of the 27 Club (or similar name such as the Forever 27 Club). — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:49, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

So when some blog or something (Forever 27 Club) says,". She died at 27 years of age, thus qualifying her as the latest member of the forever 27 club of musicians who tragically met their demise at the same age." that is good enough for us?

This article is about a phenomenon of pop culture, so things are going to be slightly less rigorous than in some other articles. But, again, the contents of an article or list do not have to be notable. Only the subject of the article itself must be notable. I am actually not 100% in agreement with the previous discussions about who should or should not be included -- I would favor an even more inclusive approach -- but, that's where we're at, at this point in history. (As always, other editors are encouraged to join the discussion.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:45, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Well I am basically an inclusionist, so could be talked into almost anything. But I am used to lists such as List of architecture firms where if the blue link rule is not used the article turns into the yellow pages of every firm in the known universe. Quickly. Carptrash (talk) 04:37, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Please Add Bunker Spreckles

Hi

Bunker Spreckles died at the age of 27. He is featured in a documentary free on Amazon Prime called Bunker77. Here is the wikipedia reference for Bunker

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunker_Spreckels

hope this gets added, bunker was a surfing icon. John — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.68.227.147 (talk) 23:53, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

KIM JONG HYUN

He is a member of a popular K-Pop group called SHINEE. He was found dead today (December 18,2017)

Here are some of the articles:

1) 2) 3)

This is his wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-hyun_(singer) . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syirazi Siraj (talk • contribs) 11:17, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2017

Today Kim Jonghyun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-hyun_(singer) died from suicide at the age of 27. I feel like he should be added to the list. Sheslikemagic (talk) 12:08, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Already done by SwaggiiChris (talk). regards, DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 15:21, 18 December 2017 (UTC).

I've just removed it. The cite used didn't mention "the club" and also says he was 28. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:15, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

edit semi-protected / cause of death: Suicide by Carbon Monoxide

Cause of death: Suicide by Carbon Monoxide

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Iquares (talk • contribs) 03:17, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Multiple sources say that Kim Jong-Hyun died by suicide, but I'm not seeing anything about carbon monoxide. I'm going to take that part out. If reliable sources provide information about how he killed himself, that can be added to the article. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 08:01, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

I've found a reference for the carbon monoxide, and updated the article, here. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 13:14, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

ANIKÓ SEBŐK

Hello! Anikó Sebők was a Hungarian singer, part of a girl group called C'est La Vie. She just started her solo career but died at age 27, 2 weeks after a car accident.

|}

References

216.163.247.2 (talk) 17:10, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. This is getting silly. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:38, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Silly? There are three sources provided. 216.163.247.4 (talk) 15:47, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I guess I was a bit too flippant in my reponse. But none of those sources are usable. One is a blog, and the other two aren't much better. They don't really make a claim that these people should be considered to be in this list, only more of a "hey look, here are some historical figures who also died at 27". He also doesn't fit with the general artist nature of other list entries, and he also well predates the entire concept introduced in the article. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:54, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Reference in music

I suggest adding Lifetime Achievement Award by Lemon Demon to the Music subsection of In Popular Culture. The song has a reference to the 27 Club with the lines "You're not getting into heaven / If you live past 27" in a song about reviving a previously dead musician. Denusai (talk) 19:54, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Fredo Santana

His cause of death should be epilepsy — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeezylord18 (talk • contribs) 10:43, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Thuy Trang isn't here

To those who don't know who I'm talking about which most likely is a lot of you, Thuy Trang was a Vietnamese American actress. She was best known for her role as Trini Kwan, the first Yellow Ranger on the original cast of the television series Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. Being born on December 14, 1973 and sadly meeting her end on September 3, 2001 she died at the early age of 27 years and 264 days old. It doesn't seem right to not have her on here as she still sadly dies at the age of 27 and her death is no different from those who are on the list and whose age put them their as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.48.224.67 (talk) 07:43, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2020

- Jbumann16 (talk) 20:34, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jbumann16: This doesn't appear to specify what change is required. Closing as answered, please reopen if you have something specific you'd like us to do. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 21:35, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Tyler Skaggs

Baseball pitcher Tyler Skaggs died at the age of 27 on July 1, 2019.

Name	Date of birth	Date of death	Official cause of death	Fame	Age	References
Tyler Skaggs	July 13, 1991	July 1, 2019	Undetermined	American baseball player	27 years, 353 days

References

J4lambert (talk) 18:55, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

@J4lambert: There's no need to repeat the whole table here on the talk page. It's redundant and it takes up too much space. So, I've taken the liberty of editing your post, by removing all the rows except for the one you're suggesting be added. I also threw in a {{Reflist-talk}} for formatting purposes. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:26, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

J4lambert, as I said on Talk:Tyler Skaggs, there would need to be references connecting him to the 27 club. There are not. Not everyone who dies at 27 should be added here, especially if they are not musicians. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:22, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

https://www.thewrap.com/27-club-stars-died-age-jimi-hendrix-amy-winehouse-anton-yelchin-kurt-cobain/ Anton Yelchin is way more tenuous - most of the 27 Club deaths are drug-related, as was Skaggs. Yelchin just had a moment of absolutely horrible fortune. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KateBergerMpls (talk • contribs) 23:29, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 January 2020

don't know if he counts as an established member or not, but Harry Hains died earlier this year at 27 Chasezly (talk) 03:59, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. See all the previous discussion. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 04:36, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 March 2020

Please add Harry Haines, actor/musician, to this list. He was announced dead at age 27 from accidental fentanyl intoxication, as per the formal case file of the LA ME's office 192.23.22.191 (talk) 13:29, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. We need (preferably multiple) high-quality sources that specifically claim membership for the person. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 13:38, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

References

Happy Akhand edit request on 23 March, 2020

Please add Happy Akhand to the list of musicians who died at the age of 27. He was a pioneering Bangladeshi rock singer/songwriter. He was born 12 October, 1968 and he died 28 December, 1987. His cause of death was taking mandrax as he was trying to recover from its addiction. He lived exactly 27 years 77 days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.124.171.98 (talk) 05:55, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

References

https://www.thedailystar.net/arts-entertainment/news/celebrating-happy-akhand-his-classics-1812736 https://www.thedailystar.net/news-detail-206095 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.124.171.98 (talk) 06:06, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

No claim of membership is made in the sources. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 14:55, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2020

Add Alan Wilson to the list of musicians who died at age 27 between 1969-1971. He died two weeks before Jimi Hendrix and four weeks before Janis Joplin, all at the same age. Vonterschj (talk) 16:04, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. See above. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 16:06, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Canned Heat

Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison all died at the age of 27 between 1969 and 1971. Why is the name of Alan Wilson not represented here? 163.158.173.249 (talk) 00:37, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

That sentence, in the "History" section, is about the musicians whose deaths gave rise to the popular culture notion of the 27 Club. Alan Wilson is listed in the main table. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 04:26, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Thuy Trang edit request on 7 July 2018

Please add the name "Thuy Trang" to the list of 27 club members. She was born 17 Dec, 1973. Died 3 Sept, 2001. Cause of death: car accident. Her claim to fame was playing the role of the yellow ranger in the original "Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers" TV series. She lived 27 years and 270 days

Source links:

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0870962/bio https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/6402207/thuy-trang MedievalLoserCatholicHobo (talk) 18:16, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. IMDB is not a reliable source. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 06:13, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Can we get this added please? Why would this request be denied? She was 27. Please add.

https://ew.com/tv/2018/12/03/yellow-power-ranger-thuy-trang-dead-remembered-cast/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:186:4580:1387:E15C:7F96:3D4:78B9 (talk) 20:34, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

27 Club and Rupert Brooke:

Moved from User talk:Deacon Vorbis

 – –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 22:07, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

You removed my original entry for Rupert Brooke on the 27 Club page, citing the lack of a reference. I added a valid reference to the official biography of Rupert Brooke, supporting the information about his death. You then removed the entry again citing “reverting reinstatement...problems not addressed”? Could you please be more explicit? Thanks, Neil. NeilMaybin (talk) 22:02, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@NeilMaybin: When you added this entry, you also removed another one. But also, while there was now a source for the age, the source doesn't make a claim as to 27 Club membership. Lots of people have died at 27; we can't list them all here. Preferably, we need (multiple) high-quality sources that make a claim of membership. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 22:07, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@Deacon Vorbis: Thanks, and thanks for notifying me about the error introduced in the update. I'll pay more attention in future. Regarding Rupert Brooke's 27 Club membership there are certainly many references on the Web; however, am I right in assuming that what you are looking for is direct references in mainstream publications or research? Thanks. –NeilMaybin (talk) 14:34, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Justin Mentell addition to "27 Club" Wikipedia

Addition to "27 club" Wikipedia page: Justin Mentell, actor on "Boston Legal" and "G-Force" (Disney Production). Cause of Death - car accident 2/1/2010. Born 12/16/1982

References

72.92.130.1 (talk) 18:42, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

List inclusion

@Ceoil: Again, we try to only include people in the list who are identified as members from (preferably multiple) reliable sources. Your addition isn't so shouldn't be included. Otherwise, this constitutes WP:OR. As a practical matter, failure to do so would open the list up to every single person who has ever died at 27, which is unreasonable. I'd be happier with the list just gone, but if we're going to have it, we need to stick to sourced entries. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 14:36, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi Deacon, but that seems very arbitrary and random; that some journalist mentioned it, when in fact we are, or should be documenting a sociological phenomenon, where by early fame + drugs + booze + etc, leads to burnout that seems to cluster around aged 27. Ceoil (talk) 14:40, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Ceoil: All list inclusion criteria are arbitrary to some extent or another; if you look back through the talk page and archives, you'll see that this is currently the easy truce we've worked out that you're now upsetting. If you want to make "List of singers who died at 27" then have at it, but for this list specifically, you need a source claiming membership, and you don't have one. Please remove it. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 14:43, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok, let me dig deeper into the sources on this one. Ceoil (talk) 14:49, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

The Irish Examiner writes: "Before his tragic drowning in June 1989 in the Serpentine in London aged 27 (that infamous age for music stars), Donnelly left a trail of colourful stories in his wake."[1] Ceoil (talk) 15:09, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I think that's good enough. What do other editors say? "P.S." Here is the most extensive previous discussion about inclusion criteria: Talk:27 Club/Archive 4#RfC: Should there be two lists of musicians or one, and who should be included? (It's archived, so any additional discussion about the criteria should take place here and not there.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 19:23, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, I do know where Deacon Vorbis is coming from, I'm frankly more of a deletionist myself, but certainly think this page should exist. Ceoil (talk) 19:26, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't at all. I'd love to have an article about the "27 club", the sociological implications, and so on, but this isn't that; now the criterion seems to be "someone died at 27 and some or another source said something to the effect that this puts them in the 27 club", which really isn't very useful. But I lost this battle long long ago. (Along with Kennedy Curse.) --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 01:20, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

When I look up the phrase in google-books, its all pseud psychology babble, mostly written by romantic 1960s new age types. Still searching though for broader, grounded, views. I do think there is the bones of a salvageable article here. Its very obv a term thats half coincidence, half projection. Ceoil (talk) 22:45, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

The 8th face on the painting is Jonathan Kis-Lev.

The last face on the painting is Jonathan Kis-Lev, the astist who painted this hommage.

Source : The description of the photo (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Graffiti_Tel_Aviv,_Khayim_Ben_Atar_St_-_zoom.jpg) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.28.217.20 (talk) 21:25, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Kiing Shooter

US rapper Kiing Shooter needs adding to this list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiing_Shooter — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kerlmann (talk • contribs) 17:49, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2020

K-pop singer Cha In-ha was found dead aged 27 years 138 days old (July 15, 1992 – December 3, 2019) although the death was kept private. 71.232.69.29 (talk) 14:21, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:34, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Removed list

I have WP:BOLDly removed the list of people from this article per WP:IINFO. It's fine to document this as a subject itself, but inclusion in the list is completely arbitrary as it relies on biasing from sources that are prone to think this is a worthy statistic. In other words, there's no real inclusion criterion except that someone somewhere mentioned this along with their age of death. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 00:30, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

That's WP:BOLD, all right, since the list has been there for quite a long time. So now I'll put it back, and we can talk about it, per WP:BRD. Please take a look at the archived discussion at Talk:27 Club/Archive 4#RfC: Should there be two lists of musicians or one, and who should be included?, where it was decided to have the one list, and include popular musicians, and others too, who were mentioned as members of the 27 Club in one of those sources that you're referring to. (I advocated for more inclusive criteria at that time, but could not persuade a majority of my fellow editors.) I think this list is of value, and that readers interested in this subject will want to see it. And that since this is a pop cultural phenomenon, and not a rigorous scientific subject, we're better off with the list. As always, other editors are encouraged to explain their own opinions. P.S. The list does not fall under WP:IINFO, as far as I can see. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 03:15, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

The main problem is that this is pure trivia. Okay, so there's this persistent notion in the media that 27 is some magical age for musicians (or anyone else now, apparently) to die, even though studies have failed to bear this out. This much in itself is notable and talked about in the article, and that's fine. However, a list of everyone famous who's ever died at 27 is not appropriate or of encyclopedic value. Many of the sources used are garbage, including the one you mentioned in the edit request immediately above. And the thing is, every source is garbage; there is no measure of reliability with respect to inclusion in the club. Anyone can mutter the incantation "27 club" alongside a person who died at 27 and that seems to automatically make them a member. If we're writing about a music topic, an article from Rolling Stone should be more reliable than a post to Billy Bob's Blog, but here, they'd be about equal.

The RfC you linked is flawed because it presented a false dilemma – one list or two lists, when in fact, no list at all would have been a much better option. WP:IINFO very much applies here; writing about the claim of 27 or the idea of a 27 club is fine, but including a list of everyone anyone or their neighbor has ever claimed to be a member of it is not. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 03:54, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Any list of names should have each entry strongly supported by reliable sources. One mention in one publication is not enough. We should be telling the reader only the people who are widely described as members of the 27 Club. I propose an inclusion criteria of two mainstream sources for each entry. Such an inclusion criteria will greatly prune the list. Binksternet (talk) 04:07, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Since we're having a new discussion about the list, I'll advocate for what I really think, and stop supporting the previous consensus. The 27 Club is the pop cultural and unscientific idea that many well-known popular musicians have died at the age of 27. By definition any well-known popular musician who died at the age of 27 is a "member" of the club. To explicate this for our readers, we should list those people in the article. There's no need to find any references at all that associate each individual member with the 27 Club, they're "in" by definition. We should limit the list to people who have their own Wikipedia article -- or possibly also include people who were in a band that has its own Wikipedia article -- because that's a reasonable way to determine whether or not they were well-known. Only popular musicians should be included. I believe this is the best approach for this article, and one that would be appreciated by both readers and editors. "P.S." This would not be "original research". We would not be determining who the members of the club are. That's determined by the concept of the 27 Club itself. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 10:49, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Then we don't need the list at all; just a category of musicians who died when they were 27. Could be automatically generated, I guess. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 14:49, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

But that's your definition, not the definition used by many sources. Other sources have started mentioning the 27 Club in relation to more than just musicians. Actors, Athletes, Celebrities of one sort or another. So if we're to remove the need for sources on the list, Wikipedia editors should also not act as gatekeepers on the list. Everyone notable who dies at 27 becomes a member. And at that point, what does club membership even mean any more? And what distinguishes it from The 28 Club? The 21 Club? The 77 Club? Part of what made the notion catch on was the idea that some musicians, in some way, lived life fast and burned out at a young age. Does this apply to Athletes? Writers? Reality TV Contestants?

If we're to do away for the need of cites making actual reference to the club in relation to someone, then entire idea just falls apart and becomes ridiculous. We may as well just have a series of categories. [[Category:Deaths aged 27]], [[Category:Deaths aged 28]], [[Category:Deaths aged 29]] .. ..

That's not to say sources are a perfect reflection of the idea. But like with any other Wikipedia article, they are all we've got and should be using.

But personally, I'd be fine being rid of the list entirely. List the people who brought about the idea originally (Hendrix, Joplin etc) and leave it there. Readers don't need any further examples to understand the concept, and the list is just list crud. And the bigger it gets, the cruddier it gets. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:23, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

The generally accepted concept of the 27 Club includes only popular musicians. First there was Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison. After that people started making more inclusive lists, of musicians that is. Later, the popularity of the idea increased, after the untimely passings of Kurt Cobain and Amy Winehouse. It would serve our readers best if the article included a list, in table form, of all well-known popular musicians who died at age 27, and no one else. That's who the "members" of the Club are, according to most people. Then our happy and well-informed readers can continue to refer to the table to find valuable information about short-lived musical luminaries such as Robert Johnson, Alan "Blind Owl" Wilson, Ron "Pigpen" McKernan, Pete Ham, Kristen Pfaff, and the others, and click through to their individual Wikipedia articles. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:53, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

"generally accepted", "according to most people" - You need to support these statements from reliable sources. This may have been how it started out, but sources now suggest that people are happy to include non-musicians. We don't get to decide they don't count. We reflect what the sources say. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:16, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Mudwater, your suggestion is a violation of WP:No original research, a hard policy that doesn't have any wiggle room. We can't simply decide that a musician who died at 27 is a member of the 27 Club. Rather, the 27 Club is a cultural concept, based on impressions of the media rather than on hard facts. If the media lists a musician as a member, fine. If the media does not list a musician as a member, we cannot violate NOR by entering their name.

My suggestion is that we only list musicians that are widely described as being a member of the 27 Club. At the very least, each entry should be supported by two citations to reliable sources. Binksternet (talk) 00:06, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Deacon Vorbis' removal of the list and with the reasons they gave for doing so. The list is tasteless trivia and not of encylopedic value. The article itself is fine as it documents the discussion of the idea and, most importantly in my view, also links to studies discrediting the idea that there is any statistical significance in the age of 27 for young musician deaths. But the list itself is just continuing fetishisation of a discredited idea (still employed by lazy journalists) and should not be in the article. I would like to see a formal Request for comments (RfC) launched to address the question of list removal. Oska (talk) 02:12, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Elvis' grandson

Benjamin Keough, died 12/7/20. Pretty much a gold-standard 27 Clubman, I reckon. Valetude (talk) 08:52, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Sure, if you have a cite that says so. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 09:15, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

what IS he? only quick mention in mother's wiki, and no comment as to being actor, singer, etc.

seems non-notable other than being "elvis' grandson".

not sure worth inclusion here. 66.30.47.138 (talk) 21:50, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Adding Tirone José González Orama a.k.a Canserbero to Identified members list

Please add to the Identified members list 'Tirone José González Orama (March 11, 1988 – January 20, 2015), known by his stage name Canserbero.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canserbero

Canserbero has greatly influenced Latin-American Rap, Hip-Hop, and music. He died at age 27 at the peak of his career. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ozmanj.3 (talk • contribs) 03:22, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2020

Remove Lil Marlo from identified members. Lil Marlo was 30 years old at time of death and therefore cannot be included in the 27 club. Onefootmoccasin (talk) 09:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I've removed for now. Age is disputed and the source used (Daily Star) is a really poor source. If a better source can be found that establishes age and links to "the club", he can be reinstated. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 10:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Add actress Thuy Trang to the 27 Club

Can someone please add Thuy Trang to the "Identified members" table of the "27 Club" Wiki page? Thuy Trang (December 14, 1973 - September 3, 2001) was an actress who played the role of Trini Kwan, the Yellow Ranger from "Mighty Morphin Power Rangers". She was killed in a car accident on September 3, 2001 at the age of 27. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlmostValDay1996 (talk • contribs) 04:13, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a source that makes her a member of the club? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 19:29, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Jade Goody?

Jade Goody also died at 27 - arguably the most successful / famous person to go on Big Brother (or any reality show) and be 'famous for being famous'. Her life and death were constantly reported in the tabloids, even after she passed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Goody — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.29.193.47 (talk) 10:27, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

This article is about the 27 Club, and those identified with it. Has Goody been so? Do you have a cite? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:06, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Right Here, if someone wants to update - Is Jade Goody the latest victim of Club 27? --173.167.227.133 (talk) 22:46, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Jade Good was not a musician, artist, or actor, she should either be removed or the criteria adjusted to include notable persons / celebrities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.49.228.223 (talk) 18:37, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

The article says "mostly popular musicians, artists, or actors". Otherwise the criteria is those who reliable sources have placed in the club. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 19:30, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2020

2A02:2698:22:55B7:F98A:9A8F:7A3:F4DC (talk) 23:28, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Hello. I would like to amend the text of Club 27 by adding new sentences about one more person. I will give you links if you remove the protection for editing on my ID. https://news-r.ru/amp/news/culture/147093/ https://outstyle.org/article/v-pamyati-o-kazahstanskom-ryepere-po-prozvishhu-shot https://moscow-oblast.sm-news.ru/klub-27-komu-iz-molodyx-zvezd-ostalos-sovsem-nichego-do-zlopoluchnogo-vozrasta-60239/ 2A02:2698:22:55B7:F98A:9A8F:7A3:F4DC (talk) 23:28, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

If you are requesting that someone edit the article for you, you will need to be more specific about who want to add and what the sources say to support it. Thanks. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 10:45, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Telegraph.co.uk

I just wanted to inform that I will not accept telegraph.co.uk as a source. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/8657314/Amy-Winehouse-joins-the-Forever-27-club.html

The website tells us "Try one month free, then just $3 for three months Subscribe now and turn to our trusted journalism when you need it most.

Enjoy unlimited access to the News Website of the Year.

Start your free trial One month free, then your next three months for $3. $2 per week thereafter."

That is why I am againnst using telegraph.co.uk as a source. Neel.arunabh (talk) 01:07, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

That's very interesting, but not a reason for removing this cite. When I follow the link I can see the article "Amy Winehouse joins the 'Forever 27' club". Whatever your problem is does not make it an unacceptable source.

You should also read Wikipedia policy regarding paywalled sources.

Do not remove it again without consensus. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:53, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2020

The following passage of scripture should be added as it is a revelation of something greater than us all concerning the number 27 the ten before the 27 refers to the commandments.

Proverbs 10:27  The fear of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened. Babelone (talk) 22:51, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: @Babelone: There is no evidence that this is relevant or anything more than a conincidence. Please provide sources that make it clear that this connection is not original research on your part and that this passage is connected and often mentioned in relation to this "club".
SSSB (talk) 14:25, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2019

Please add "Emilia Denisa Raducu", a Romanian artist (musician) who died in 2017 at the age of 27 after losing a long battle with liver cirrhosis. It's a shame that she's not in there.

Thank you. PS: Please reconsider adding Emilia Denisa Raducu to Identified Members Konagoo (talk) 14:25, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

This appears to be a reference that identifies Denisa as a member of the 27 Club. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 15:02, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

 Not done since I removed the list. See below for more detail. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 00:25, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. @Konagoo and Mudwater: a comment on that page is not reliable. It constitutes WP:SPS.
SSSB (talk) 11:24, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Here are some sources: https://www.romaniatv.net/denisa-manelista-a-murit-in-chinuri-groaznice-cum-s-au-scurs-ultimele-zile-de-viata-ale-denisei-raducu-va-iubesc-pe-toti_368406.html

https://www.realitatea.net/stiri/actual/denisa-manelista-a-murit-mesajul-sfasietor-despre-moarte-scris-de-ea-in-urma-cu-cateva-luni_5dcc9255406af85273d60ada

and this is in english:

https://www.thecelebritydeaths.com/denisa-raducus-death-cause-and-date/

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/183123431/denisa-emilia-r_ducu— Preceding unsigned comment added by Konagoo (talk • contribs) 10:10, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. GreaterPonce665 ^(TALK) 15:47, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2021

Jonathan Brandis born April 13 1976 - died by suicide November 12 2003 aged 27. Played Bastian in The Never Ending Story part 2 1.126.106.70 (talk) 13:10, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

 Already done: looks like Jonathan Brandis is already in the table and discussed in this article. Is there something extra you wanted to be added? Volteer1 (talk) 13:57, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2021

John Garrighan 4.1.1983-1.31.2011 2600:1009:B04C:FBF:9F1:4DDC:C730:FD52 (talk) 17:58, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. You would need to show references describing his death as being part of the 27 Club. You did not show any references. Also, Garrighan's Wikipedia biography should already be written. Binksternet (talk) 18:36, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Lead graffiti image

Hi, I have cropped out from the lead image an image of the artist. He's of questionable notably, and in any case is not a member of the 27 Club (apparently being alive and well beyond the age of 27), which is the article subject and point of the illustration. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:36, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

No one said that Jonathan Kis-Lev was a member of the 27 Club. It's just that he included his own image in the graffiti mural that he created. So I think it would be okay to leave him in there. With that being said, cropping him out of the picture of the mural is an interesting approach, and I don't see anything wrong with it. What do you think about removing the separate photo of Jim Morrison from the article? He's just one member of the Club, and he's included in the mural, so I don't think it's particularly helpful to also have a photo of him here. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:58, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, no-one said he was a member. Which is why the reader is likely to be confused why he, no-one of notability, is there alongside members, in the lead, and gets a mention. The artist was probably making some kind of statement by including himself, but whatever it was is irrelevant to this article.

I don't see much to worry about Morrison's photo. It's not intrusive, and kind of signifies his position as a "founding member". I wouldn't show preference to a painting over a photo. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 09:41, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2021

Lemon Demon/Neil Cicierega has made a reference to the 27 Club in his album "Spirit Phone" on "Lifetime Achievement Award" source: https://genius.com/8745747 Starcasm11 (talk) 20:41, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2021

Add an extra to references to 27 club: Frank Ocean - Nights

Frank sings the line "no white lighters 'til I f*ck my 28th up" which refers to (quoting from source) "Several legendary musicians, such as Jim Morrison and Jimi Hendrix, died at 27 with white lighters in their pockets."

URL Reference: https://genius.com/10264872

Glinty ST (talk) 20:36, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. See WP:RSP#Genius. Would support otherwise. Sennecaster (What now?) 23:46, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2021

Frank Ocean references the 27 club in his song 'Nights' with the lyric "No white lighters 'til I fuck my 28th up", this is because of the myth that all the members of the 27 club were found with white Bic lighters on their persons when they died. Jmmlfc (talk) 19:42, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 22:22, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2021

Please add this artist to the list :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabetta_Sirani Atoncito (talk) 20:56, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: We need references placing them in the 27 club. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:00, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

27 club add Elvis Presley's grandson - musician Benjamin Keough, 27 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Marie_Presley#Personal_life

27 club add Elvis Presley's grandson - musician Benjamin Keough, 27 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Marie_Presley#Personal_life — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikeleedle (talk • contribs) 17:30, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

I have added Keough, as I found sources which explicitly mentioned him as a member of the club  — Amakuru (talk) 10:56, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 June 2021

Add Adam Törnblad from Moonlit Sailor

https://www.familjesidan.se/cases/tornblad-adam/funeral-notices

https://www.facebook.com/82462011336/photos/a.431453181336/10155581654646337/ 2607:FA49:6103:FC00:B4EA:5E7D:51DB:7E22 (talk) 09:52, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Do you have any sources that mention the "27 Club"? These do not. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 10:10, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

He was a musician in a notable band that died at 27, what source do you want? That's the point of the 27 club...it even says it on the Moonlit Sailor wiki page

This article lists those who have been "placed" in the 27 Club by reliable sources. It's not a list of people who died at 27. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 10:36, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2021

Song La Di Die by Nessa Barret references the club “Hope someday I'll find nirvana I'll be looking down below I'll be dead at twenty-seven Only nine more years to go 2600:1014:B04A:B8B0:251B:CA0C:F15D:ADA4 (talk) 05:07, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.   melecie   t 12:39, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Add reference to Music reference section

Add reference to Music section:

Artist: Saliva

Song: Superstar

Lyric: Is it no surprise that I'm paralyzed By my fame and fortune As I close my eyes and dive Into the sky I'm dead 27 (Yeah!)

Lupineblue2600 (talk) 14:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

References

 Not done. This example of 27 Club in lyrics would be proved important to the topic if someone in the media mentioned wrote something about it. The fact needs a WP:SECONDARY source to show importance. Binksternet (talk) 14:47, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2021

Please add painter Elisabetta Sirani.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabetta_Sirani SamanthaPlimPlom (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2021 (UTC) Not Done the request must be of the form "please change X to Y format. Remember to use an edit request in the future; it makes it easier for editors to see your request.Grayson Indica (talk) 06:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

add new member

Tyler Skaggs Professional Baseball Player (Arizona Diamondbacks) Accidental Overdose Born July 13th 1991 Died July 1st 2019 Age: 27 years 353 days — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:192:8801:aee0:c56a:1897:b69c:c235 (talk • contribs) 07:44, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

As per above, do you have any sources which explicitly refer to this person as a member of the 27 Club? It not, it won't be added. Cheers.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:40, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Introductory paragraph grammar

I would replace "proved" with "proven" considering that it's a passive past participle. From wiktionary: The past participle disproven is often proscribed in favor of disproved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Schebbi (talk • contribs) 10:35, 5 April 2021 (UTC)