Talk:AS Val and VSS Vintorez

"Assault rifle"

My understanding is that this term is commonly used to describe any autoloading rifle which fires an "intermediate" cartridge. This is a pretty colloquial term used to describe post-WW2 rifle cartridges which are "smaller" than what was considered typical of the era, but also larger than "conventional" pistol cartridges. Given the imprecise (and arguably opinion/context-dependent, as many people have different definitions) nature of this label, I feel that referring to the AS/VSS (or really any other firearm) as such is unnecessary. --KnowledgeableHrvatica (talk) 05:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

A small arm is an assault rifle when it is:

1. capable of select fire
2. chambered for an intermediate cartridge
3. fed from detachable magazines

Definitions:

1. Select fire meaning the weapon is able to be switched between semi automatic and fully automatic modes of firing.
2. Intermediate cartridge being smaller in length than a rifle cartridge of the same calibre, but bigger than a pistol cartridge of that calibre.
3. Detachable magazines can be bottom, top, or side mounted.

The AS Val:

1. is capable of fully automatic and semi automatic fire, and mode of firing can be switched.
2. fires an intermediate cartridge. As far as I know, there are no fully powered Soviet cartridges of 9mm calibre, but compared to 9x64mm and other rifle cartridges of 9mm, and to 9mm pistol rounds like the 9x18mm Makarov or 9x19mm Parabellum, the Val's 9x39mm is in between and is considered an intermediate cartridge.
3. has a bottom mounted 20-round detachable box magazine.

Given these, I'd say quite confidently the AS Val is an assault rifle. VictoryLlama (talk) 18:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

New variant

I think this page needs a citation as to where one can get information on this new AS Val variant that can hold 30 rounds of 9x39mm ammunition. It certainly sounds interesting, but I would definitely like verification on this.

Even so, I'm surprised the Russian military has BOTH the AS Val and the OTs-14 Groza in circulation. According to the Groza's page here on wikipedia, it can do a great deal the AS Val can't, including mounting a grenade launcher, using a bayonet, being transported in a special carry case, and indeed duplicate some of the Val's other features, like using a scope and a suppressor. If indeed the Groza rifle uses 75% of the parts for the AKS-74u carbine, then it could be made more cheaply as well by re-using those same manufacturing plants and machines instead of making and using a dedicated plant just for the Val rifle.

I know that when lives are on the line, ineffective or obsolete weaponry is often quickly discarded (though I still don't understand why the 9x18mm round is still in service despite being clearly inferior to the 9x19mm parabellum round), and given how strapped-for-cash the Russian military is, they could save some money by discontinuing the Val production and maintenance and devoting the freed-up manufacturing capacity and budget to Groza production.

If indeed the "newer variant" of the Val is real, then its higher magazine capacity than the Groza might be reason to keep it around over the Groza, but we still need a citation for it. I'd like someone with the right knowledge to clear this up for me. 74.12.129.101 (talk) 19:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

To answer the above question, there is no "new variant" for AS Val. However, there is an improved version of SR3 Vikhr, called SR3M, which I believe is mistaken in this article as a variant of Val. Please see http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/as65-e.htm to verify. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.136.182.52 (talk) 14:19, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Deleting users

Please stop deleting Georgia from the users section. This weapons is frequently used by the Georgian police in raid operations and it is also in the inventory of the military special forces. TheMightyGeneral (talk) 13:52, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

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Why is the AS VAL classified as an assault rifle even though it only has a barrel length of 200mm?

Most carbines have barrel length of less than 16 inches and AS VAL is way below that so shouldn't it be a carbine? All Nite (talk) 06:37, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Because that is how the Russian manufacturer categorises the 'AS special assault rifle'. The manufacturer's official classification of the AS 'Val' is a special assault rifle. For any firearm to be categorised as an 'assault rifle', it must be chamber in an intermediate calibre. Assault rifles must also be capable of select-fire (fully automatic/burst-fire and semi-automatic). I provided a source of a video made by 'Forgotten Weapons' talking about the history and design of the AS Val, VSS Vintorez and other 9x39mm chambered weapons. Guns & Glory (talk) 04:46, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

"Literal" translation

The listed literal translation for the weapon's Russian name is "special assault rifle". In reality, avtomat is Russian for "machine" or "automatic". While the word has been connoted with assault rifles thanks to the AK, it doesn't necessarily refer to an assault rifle. It really refers to automatic weapons in general. A better literal translation would be "special automatic" or "special submachine gun" (especially seeing as it is more SMG than AR, I think. R. A. Simmons ^Talk 17:24, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

More nonsense from KnowledgeableHrvatica

Why have you merged the articles for two rifles with different GRAU numbers, names, and designations? Once again, what source or rationale are you using to support this baffling change? How many more articles are you going to mess up because you unilaterally decided they needed reorganizations or redesignation? Couldn't you have at least kept this page about the Vintorez and built a separate subsection for the Val, or added the Val to a list of variants? That would have at least made some kind of sense! 176.154.184.23 (talk) 22:42, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this. When I first noticed that the two articles have been merged it was abysmal to see. I will further edit the whole article to have a clearer and more structured flow to maintain uniformity of other weapon articles here on Wikipedia.

The AS Val and VSS Vintorez are essentially the same rifle. The latter having a different 'sniper' style buttstock and comes equipped with a PSO-1. Note that the AS Val can also equip such scope. Now relating to the merge, was this even discussed? How it was done is just atrociously bad. Were all contents from the former VSS Vintorez article properly merged onto this new page? Such as users, references and other materials.

How many other articles were merged by this guy? Guns & Glory (talk) 04:53, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Make the page name concise (VSS and AS)

I did some digging and have found out that the official nomenclatures for both 'AS Val and VSS Vintorez' is simply, 'AS special assault rifle and VSS special sniper rifle'.

Here are official sources for reference;

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/Security%20systems/Counterterrorist%20assets/Assault%20rifles/AS/

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/Security%20systems/Counterterrorist%20assets/Sniper%20rifles/VSS/ Guns & Glory (talk) 07:58, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The official name doesn't hold precedence over WP:COMMONNAME, and this is most certainly not the common name:

• Jane's Infantry Weapons uses the name "AS silent assault rifle/VS silent sniper rifle"
• Modern Snipers by Osprey Publishing uses the name VSS Vintorez (p. 229)
• [1] The National Interest uses the name AS Val
• [2] Recoil uses the name AS Val/VSS Vintorez

Loafiewa (talk) 00:00, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

• https://archive.org/details/janesgunsrecogni0000jone/page/309/mode/1up?view=theater - Jane's Gun Recognition uses 'AS and VSS' page 309
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNJgmn-VjJU&t=4s - official promotional video from the weapon's manufacturer also states that the name of the weapon is simply 'AS' but is also referred to as the 'Val'. Note that they didn't call it the 'AS Val' but either 'AS' or 'Val' since both names refer to the same weapon but not in unison. Same goes for the VSS
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m50N5bc_BE - VSS official promotional video from the weapon's manufacturer

Guns & Glory (talk) 23:04, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

If common name holds precedence over official given name then I would suggest put a parenthesis or ''

VSS 'Vintorez' and AS 'Val' or VSS (Vintorez) and AS (Val)

So readers will not get the impression that it is correct to say 'AS Val/VSS Vintorez' Guns & Glory (talk) 23:12, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

COMMONNAME goes by what independent sources use, of which you have managed to produce only one that uses the shortened name, which seems to hold little significance when the aforementioned Jane's Infantry Weapons by the same publication uses a different name. Loafiewa (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Whatever you editors decide, get consensus before making more changes. These changes and reversions are disruptive. MartinezMD (talk) 06:04, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 3 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is clear opposition to the move, and the only proponents of the move seem to be an editor who is currently blocked for sockpuppetry, and an account that has scant edits outside the topic. Additionally, the only evidence presented by the proponents are barely reliable sources and references to the Russian and Ukrainian Wikipedias. (closed by non-admin page mover) EggRoll97 ^(talk) 23:33, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

---

AS Val and VSS Vintorez → VSS (Vintorez) and AS (Val) – The VSS should come first before the AS because the VSS (Vintorez) was produced first. The AS (Val) was derived from the VSS project. Adding the parenthesis on the Vintorez and Val is necessary to let the readers know that these names are distinct and should not be used in unison. Official nomenclature for these rifles are; 'VSS Special Sniper Rifle and AS Special Assault Rifle'. VSS and AS for short. The 'Vintorez and Val' were merely project names given to these rifles during their developmental stage. This was given in order to confuse foreign agencies during the Cold War. It is correct to refer to these rifles as; 'VSS Special Sniper Rifle', 'VSS', 'Vintorez' and 'AS Special Assault Rifle', 'AS', 'Val'. But it is incorrect to refer to it as 'VSS Vintorez' and 'AS Val'. By put putting the parenthesis on the 'Vintorez and Val' it will separate the official name and the project name so readers would know the difference. Guns & Glory (talk) 13:54, 3 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 17:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 17:47, 17 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 20:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Fails WP:COMMONNAME, and article titles should not contain the personal inventions of Wikipedia editors. Loafiewa (talk) 16:20, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

It's not personal 'inventions' as you claim it to be. I've already given necessary links to the original manufacturer of this rifle. This new proposed tittle does not conflict common name since it mentions the "Vintorez and Val". It just shows your lack of knowledge of this particular firearm. This is a Russian based firearm, "Common Name" in the Russian Wiki does put the Vintorez and Val under quotation. I'm done arguing this with you. Another editor must step in and give the final verdict.

• http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/Security%20systems/Counterterrorist%20assets/Assault%20rifles/AS/
• http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/Security%20systems/Counterterrorist%20assets/Sniper%20rifles/VSS/
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNJgmn-VjJU&t=4s - Official promotional video of the AS Special Assault Rifle where it specifically differentiated the two names, "AS" and "Val" as separate names and not used in unison.
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m50N5bc_BE - VSS
• https://web.archive.org/web/20120129215000/http://bratishka.ru/archiv/2005/2/2005_2_5.php - Russian based article that goes into detail on the history of these two rifles

Guns & Glory (talk) 17:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

"Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred. Other encyclopedias are among the sources that may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopaedic register, as well as what names are most frequently used."

Quote taken from WP:COMMONNAME, You're telling me that the official manufacturer's website is not reliable? The website has an English version. Why is that not considered as reliable? "Other encyclopedias" The Russian Wiki uses the Val and Vintorez name separately, aren't these considered as other 'encyclopedia'?

• https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BB_(%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%82)
• https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7

Guns & Glory (talk) 17:46, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

COMMONNAME is determined by what independent, reliable sources use. The manufacturer's website constitutes a primary source, and is for obvious reasons not independent of the subject. Loafiewa (talk) 18:19, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

This argument about which name should be used started when I moved the page from 'AS Val and Vintorez' to 'VSS and AS'. Note that I was the one who moved the page from the former tittle (VSS Vintorez and AS Val) given after the merge of the AS Val and VSS Vintorez. I placed the AS Val first because I was following the alphabetical order guideline. Then when I was digging through reliable sources (also used by the Russian Wikipedia article of these two rifles). I realised that the VSS was produced first and the AS is simply a derivative of the VSS. That's why I want to put the VSS before the AS. Now regarding the new tittle that I moved it to which was 'VSS and AS'. After it was reverted, I understand that it does go against "COMMON Name" guidelines. So I decided to put a parenthesis on them. To give distinction between those names.

• https://modernfirearms.net/en/assault-rifles/russia-assault-rifles/as-eng/
• https://modernfirearms.net/en/sniper-rifles/standart-caliber-rifles/russia-standart-caliber-rifles/vss-eng/

The above links is a reliable secondary source. The Val is under quotation marks. One of the most reliable English based source when it comes to Russian firearms puts the Vintorez and Val under quotation marks. Now the author of this website was interviewed by Forgotten Weapons during the interview he mentioned that the Val and Vintorez name were "names given to these rifles to confuse FBI, other agencies".

Here's the link to the interview in case anyone wants to watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkprsBoImRg&t=1406s

• https://archive.org/details/janesgunsrecogni0000jone/page/308/mode/2up?view=theater

Fifth Edition published in 2008, page 309.

This source is an updated version Jane's Infantry Weapons that Loafiewa mentioned. On this revised version they simply use the "VSS and AS" names.

Now these are the sources that Loafiewa gave during the past dispute when I moved the page to "VSS and AS". Note that these sources are not used on the article.

• Jane's Infantry Weapons uses the name "AS silent assault rifle/VS silent sniper rifle"
• Modern Snipers by Osprey Publishing uses the name VSS Vintorez (p. 229)
• The National Interest uses the name AS Val - https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/silent-death-russias-deadly-spetsnaz-getting-new-assault-rifle-106516
• Recoil uses the name AS Val/VSS Vintorez - https://www.recoilweb.com/homemade-american-vss-vintorez-173869.html

Above links are quoted directly from Loafiewa

• Jane's Infantry Weapons has been revised multiple times. Loafiewa did not provide a link so I would assume he was referring to this; https://archive.org/details/janesgunsrecogni0000hogg_m9y8/page/314/mode/2up?view=theater Which was published in 2005. On page 314, the name used on the tittle is "AS silent sniper rifle" Which is incorrect because the AS is not a sniper rifle. Now this could be a typo or it could also be referring to the VSS which is also mentioned on the same page. I take that the author confused the two rifles.
• He did not provide a link for Modern Snipers
• The National Interest is the only reliable source that he gave. Although this source is not currently used in the article. I'll assume that they got the name "AS Val" from Wikipedia.
• RECOIL's article is about a "homemade American VSS Vintorez". How can this be considered a reliable source? It's not even the actual VSS that this article is referring to? It's a completely different gun.

Guns & Glory (talk) 00:46, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Here is an official infographic of the AS (Val). Clearly separating the "Val" name.

http://www.vsk-kalibr.narod.ru/plk/766245.jpg Guns & Glory (talk) 07:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Your dismissal of the sources has very little congruence. I said "Jane's Infantry Weapons", because that is the name of the work, and also the name that appears on the front cover, and a separate work from Jane's Guns Recognition Guide, so why you would use a page from the latter source is beyond me. Your assumption that TNI got their name from Wikipedia is exactly that, an assumption and meaningless conjecture. The Recoil article, as with any RS, is appropriate for use as a reference in some circumstances, and not others. As the current circumstance is determining what name is used in the majority of independent, English-language sources, then the fact they use this particular name is perfectly viable for use herein. Loafiewa (talk) 19:59, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

But the English source got it wrong. Those sources that refers to these two rifles as "VSS Vintorez and AS Val" are wrong. The Val is always separated from the 'AS' designation. I can show you an email from Vladimir Onokoy (Author of this article: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/01/06/unknown-history-new-russian-ak-12-kalashnikov-rifle-part-2/) that has worked with this rifle when I get his permission. Basically what he said, the names used on the official documents are either "6P30" or "AS special assault rifle".

Modernfirearms is an English based source, why didn't you mention that on your reply? Modernfirearms uses quotation marks to separate the Vintorez and Val names.

"Jane's Infantry Weapons", either way does not use "AS Val or VSS Vintorez". It uses "AS supressed assault rifle" from what you said. You already have one reference that goes against your own argument. I'm not removing the Val and Vintorez from the tittle but putting a parenthesis to indicate to readers that these are two different names used to refer to the same rife.

Then provide a link then. I don't see how putting a parenthesis would go against common name. Guns & Glory (talk) 01:51, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

This is how the tittle style of the VSS on the Ukrainian Wiki, ВСС «Вінторєз» (When translated to English: VSS "Vintorez"). Which is the correct way and is also used in Russian sources. Either use parenthesis or quotation marks I don't mind.https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%A1%D0%A1_%C2%AB%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%94%D0%B7%C2%BB Guns & Glory (talk) 03:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't know how many times I need to reiterate "independent, reliable, English-language sources". Ukrainian Wikipedia is neither reliable nor in English, and infographics or anything else that comes from the manufacturer doesn't carry any weight here, as they are neither independent nor in English. Loafiewa (talk) 16:23, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Modernfirearms is reliable and in English. Yet again you dismiss that source and kept avoiding to touch that subject. Guns & Glory (talk) 22:24, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

You're saying other Wikipedia languages are inferior? Especially the Russian Wiki where there's more sources regarding these two rifles? A Russian based source is MORE reliable compared to American based sources when it comes to these two rifles since they were made in Russia not in America. Guns & Glory (talk) 22:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

That is not site policy. Loafiewa (talk) 21:21, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

The VSS should be listed before the AS because it predates it by a few years. Per style guidelines, the parent platform is the preferred listing.

Quotation marks can be used instead of parenthesis. Under WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS it mentions that "Exceptions can be made when they are part of the proper title".

Since this infographic clearly shows the Val is being placed within («...»). http://www.vsk-kalibr.narod.ru/plk/766245.jpg

The article name should either be VSS «Vintorez» and AS «Val» or VSS "Vintorez" and AS "Val" Guns & Glory (talk) 08:42, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Soviet Union has been notified of this discussion. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 20:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Firearms has been notified of this discussion. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 20:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Relister's note: Long convoluted argument between two editors with scant amounts of quality arguments. If I were to close it now I would lean move, but more participation for a clearer picture is preferred. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 20:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose use of parentheses per WP:COMMONNAME, neutral on order. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:47, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  According to WP:TSC, exceptions can be made when they are part of the proper title. VSS "Vintorez" and AS "Val", seems to be the most stable name mentioned from the above discussion. JTC22 (talk) 13:34, 26 June 2023 (UTC) — JTC22 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Oppose. A search for "VSS rifle" gives mostly results saying "VSS Vintorez" in news and general results. That leads me to believe VSS Vintorez is more common in English. That is the relevant standard — not what might be more official. Generally, the results do not include parentheses or quotations. Accordingly, I have to conclude that the current name is more common. Switching the order back should be uncontroversial though. Also, the name "AS rifle" or "AS sniper rifle" on its own is problematic in English because searching that gives you basically no relevant results. Hence it is more convenient to use the term "AS Val." (Meanwhile, should this page be split into two articles, one for each type of gun?) SilverLocust (talk) 04:32, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

AS Val -> AS "Val" or AS/Val

I'm personally in favor of a change to distinguish the "official" acronym name from the "informal" name. Although it is not so critical or damaging for some people to continue thinking they are the "full" names, it would be beneficial to clarify that they are two distinct names and would not subtract from the clarity of the title. People who search for 'VSS Vintorez' will not be confused by 'VSS "Vintorez"' and think it is the incorrect page. KnowledgeableHrvatica (talk) 01:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)