Talk:A Cruel Angel's Thesis

Translation

personally, i love this song. back in the day when it came out on dvd, i sat down and wrote to complete accuracy the words to the song. pause and play lol

so i'll help with this entry

Is there any source for this translation? Wikipedia doesn't publish homebrew translations if possible, and as I see it, the top translation is essentially the same as the "unofficial" translation, so I'm going to cut it for now. DirectorStratton 05:29, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Second verse and copyright issues

The lyrics for the second verse is available on various web pages. Are we allowed to copy it here? What about what we already have here?

Page move

CyberSkull: Do you have any proof that "A Cruel Angel's Thesis" is the correct title? The Google Test gives 16,600 results for "Cruel Angel's Thesis", while "A Cruel Angel's Thesis" gets a mere 541 (and "Zankoku na Tenshi no Te-ze" and other transliterations get around 1500 each). -℘yrop (talk) 06:27, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll double check my CDs when I get home, but in the meantime see the following pages:

• http://www.geneonanimemusic.com/products/evangelion.htm
• http://www.geneonanimemusic.com/products/eva2.htm
• http://www.geneonanimemusic.com/products/eva4.htm
• http://www.geneonanimemusic.com/products/eva5.htm

Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 23:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be little consistency even amongst the official sources. The soundtrack does, indeed, list it as "A Cruel Angel's Thesis", but the DVD credits read "A Thesis of the Cruel Angel". Both seem unpopular in general usage versus "Cruel Angel's Thesis". W Solleni 15:43, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Still, I'd go with the soundtrack. The liner notes state that all titles in the soundtracks were named by the director. I believe this applies to the English versions as well. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 02:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have a scan of the official OSTs (i.e. not third-party like that one Black Mages album I bought from eBay...)? From my uneducated perspective, I'd guess that Cruel Angel's Thesis would be written on there in Japanese, along with some of the other tracks. If that's the case, I'd say we should go with the most recent official US name, "Thesis of the Cruel Angel" (which, IMO, is distinctly different in saying that it's a specific Angel, though it's prolly of little actual consequence). T.J. Fuller, Jr. 14:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Stub...?

~~ Simba 13:41, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Is this page really a stub? I think the tag needs to be removed. ~~~

• Since I added an infobox, I bumped it up to Start class.--SeizureDog 04:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed the tag, it was still (again?) on the article. Ninja neko 08:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

I added an infobox, but Singles confuse me, so I wasn't sure exactly how to fill out all of the information. Please expand it. source

Also,there actually seems to be more than one single released, adding more to my confusion. However, the Maxi single had the coolest cover art by far, so I went with that one.

Anyways, I'm sure someone can sort it out all right.--SeizureDog 04:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that the other single art should be used, since the once currently featured is of the reprint. 72.70.71.61 19:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Confusion

the article hints that this is a CD single called "A cruel Angel's thesis" yet, the name of the single on the cover is "Neon genesis Evangelion 残酷な天使のテーゼ, Fly Me to the Moon". and since the article holds no sources to prove the name of the CD single is named "A cruel Angel's Thesis". DO we change what the article is about including the name or do we redirect it some where else?Bread Ninja (talk) 16:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

If the project to condense all the NGE albums wasn't happening, I'd say go ahead and rename the article to the album name, put in notes about the entire album and cut some of the extraneous material about that song. As it is, I'm hesitant to see anything done to this article...it seems pointless to me to do a lot of work to this one when it's just going to eventually be AfD'd or a redirect to the comprehensive NGE music article once that one is done. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 17:38, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

but we should at least restructure the article better, so it would be easier to redirect or the ifnormation. even if we do redirect, we would have to fix the information>Bread Ninja (talk) 19:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Thesis

The title does not mean "thesis paper about cruel angels". More like "cruel proposition concerning angels".

"Thesis" here is an originally German term de:These in philosophy or logic that means "thesis statement" or "proposition".--Kiyoweap (talk) 15:44, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

I added information that the lyricist was specifically instructed to write lyrics that were "philosophical".--Kiyoweap (talk) 02:31, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Title (note for GA)

I do not plan to review this for GA right now, but I do want to note that the article keeps switching between "A" and "The" when referring to the song. If the song is known as both, this should be explained in the article, and if not... then we should use whichever it is known as. Until this is addressed, I believe the article just falls short of GA criterion #1A. Pinging the nominator TeenAngels1234 so that you can fix this at your leisure before the review, and wishing you success in your Neon Genesis Evangelion endeavors.--Alexandra^IDV 07:56, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

@Alexandra IDV: Hi. First, thank you. Well. The official KR video and various Japanese websites (like Kai-You, AV Watch and Natalie) call it "The Cruel Angel's Thesis". Although it is universally known among native English speakers as "A". I don't know whether or not to request a move, because I'm not an expert on en.wiki naming conventions.--TeenAngels1234 (talk) 14:22, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Then, I think citing one of those sources and writing "also translated as..." in the lead would suffice. The article looks good otherwise btw.--Alexandra^IDV 14:29, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

@Alexandra IDV: OK, then. Tried my best. Hope it works :)--TeenAngels1234 (talk) 15:41, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:A Cruel Angel's Thesis/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Vami IV (talk · contribs) 22:50, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Oh HELL yes. I'll start reviewing this once I return from an errands trip. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 22:50, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Opening statement

Hello, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. My name is Vami, and I will be your reviewer. During this review I may make small edits such as spelling corrections, but I will only suggest substantive content changes in comments here. For responding to my comments, please use  Done,  Fixed,  Added,  Not done,  Doing..., or  Removed, followed by any comment you'd like to make. As my comments are addressed or rebutted, I will cross them out, and only my comments.

If I have demonstrated incompetence or caused offense, please let me know. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 22:50, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. Just be patient in these immediate days, 'cause I'm currently busy with university. Nothing too long, I hope, but just to let you know that I will not be fast as usual :)--TeenAngels1234 (talk) 23:07, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Referencing

This is my first anime and music GAN (excusing a couple pieces by noted anime protagonist and composer Johann Sebastian Bach). That said, with a few exceptions everything looks reliable or is used reliably. I'll highlight things during my reading if need be. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 00:38, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

• Citation [252] is missing the parameter.  Done
• Citation [281] is to a deprecated source; replacement advised.  Done

@Vami IV:Hope it works.--TeenAngels1234 (talk) 00:19, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

The ten million dollar question

As an editor who has also worked on topics with Japanese-language sources, I need to ask: what is your proficiency with Japanese? If you are not proficient with Japanese, how did you translate, read, and then use the sources used for this article? –♠Vami_IV†♠ 08:57, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

@Vami IV: I only know the basics. I help myself through DeepL or by asking friends who study Japanese. Some sources, such as the Filmbooks or Evangelion Chronicle, have editions in Romance languages in which I am fluent, such as French, Spanish or Italian. Others, like the Groundworks, have editions in German. Other sources have translations on NGE-related forums, such as EvaGeeks.--TeenAngels1234 (talk) 15:46, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

OK, works for me. Just as long as there are decent human translations out there. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 19:55, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Background and recording

• [Anno] first chose the song Polovtsian Dances from the opera Prince Igor by Russian composer Aleksander Borodin. Does the source cited for this identify which, if any, of the Polovtsian Dances Anno had in mind?

Nope. As far as I can say, the source (I have the original, but you can find a translation here) does not mention what exact dance Anno had in mind at the time.

• [...] a classical composition such as Prince Igor [...] Seems to be a missing "from" before "Prince Igor"; Anno appears from the prose to have been inspired by the score of the play rather than the play itself.  Done
• Gainax studio [...] Expand on this. Who/what is Gainax?  Done
• [...] contacted Hidetoshi Satō and Toshiyuki Ōmori to write an unreleased piece [...] Does "unreleased" mean that the piece is unreleased media or that it was just a demo that was never meant to be released?

I tried to explain better. It just means an original soundtrack for the series, rather than already existent music.

• Toshimichi Ōtsuki [...] personally handled the coordination. "personally" here is redundant, since it is Ōtsuki coordinating things (side note/tangent: given that this is 1990s Gainax, I have no doubt that Ōtsuki was there in person coordinating this production).  Done
• [Ōtsuki] requested to change the streaming melody into a "crispy notching style" in the demo stage. None of this makes sense to me. Can you rephrase?

Simplified.

• The music was finally composed in the key of C minor. "finally" here has no gravity; there is not really a sense of time in the paragraph.  Done
• A male backing choir was originally planned but was later deleted [...] Deleted how? In the 30-second audio sample in this section, I can clearly hear a choir.

The chorus remained, but it sounds feminine to me. AFAICT, it was the male chorus that was cut.

Composition and lyrics

• Kotono Mitsuishi, Misato's Japanese voice actress, gave a similar interpretation; in an interview, Mitsuishi stated the line "Even if I never become a goddess, I will go on" (女神なんてなれないまま私は生きる, Megami nante narenai mama watashi wa ikiru), "pierced" her heart, believing "that was Misato's voice". The quoted text here is a song lyric, but isn't presented as such (rather, as just something she said in an interview rather than an interpretation of a lyric she shared in said interview).

Right, right! Specified.

Reception

• [...] and appeared in popularity polls. When?

Tried to explain.

Commercial performance

• In 2013, it placed third in a Koebu.com poll of the best karaoke songs of all time. Best or favorite?

Favorite is better.

Music video

• [...] in reference to the series' Human Instrumentality Project. Explain the HIP.

Briefly explained.

• According to Neon Genesis Evangelion: The Unofficial Guide, written by Martin Foster and Kazuhisa Fujie, before the animated series ended, viewers said the clip was confusing and "unclear", and devoid of concrete connections with the internal events of the series. According to them, "many fans that sat through the entire series were therefore surprised to find that everything that appeared in the story had been highlighted, flagged or hinted at in the opening sequence". Combine and condense this sentence; it's a bit jarring to read The video clip for "The Cruel Angel's Thesis" received praise from audiences and critics. and then in the very next sentence read "but some people thought it confusing and bad".

Condensed.

Remixes and other versions

• Despite the simplicity of the lyrics, during the recording, the interpreter had some difficulties, having to weigh the emphasis and the correct inflection of each meow.[242] I struggle to understand why this needs inclusion in the article, however funny it is.

@Vami IV: Deleted.

GA progress

I am satisfied that the article does not contain copyright violations. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 08:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Article is in compliance with WikiProject Songs's style and content guidelines. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 08:57, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 10:55, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that lyricist Neko Oikawa wrote Neon Genesis Evangelion opening theme "A Cruel Angel's Thesis" in two hours? Source: http://en.rocketnews24.com/2015/01/08/a-cruel-angels-thesis-took-just-two-hours-to-write-says-evangelion-lyricist-neko-oikawa/

Improved to Good Article status by TeenAngels1234 (talk). Self-nominated at 12:20, 24 February 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: - pending
Overall: Recent GA article meets length and sourcing requirements. Hook is cited and interesting. Earwig isn't picking up any copyvio except false positives. Once qpq is provided, this nom will be ready. BuySomeApples (talk) 02:09, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

@BuySomeApples: Thank you. I tried to fill the quid pro quo with Template:Did you know nominations/Olena Stepaniv. Let me know.TeenAngels1234 (talk) 14:16, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

• Since BuySomeApples hasn't returned to the nomination and the QPQ was the only remaining issue, this nomination is now approved (and on Rei Ayanami and Megumi Hayashibara's birthday too). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:41, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

• TeenAngels1234 The hook information needs to be directly cited. The next sentence after the fact has two references. SL93 (talk) 01:24, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

@SL93: Sorry? I didn't understand.TeenAngels1234 (talk) 22:08, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

TeenAngels1234 DYK requires a citation right after the hook information in the article. A citation is needed directly after "Oikawa, following the directives, completed the song in two hours, after having received few details of the anime and without having met Hidetoshi Satō." This is per the eligibility criteria under Cited hook on the DYK page. "Each fact in the hook must be supported in the article by at least one inline citation to a reliable source, appearing no later than the end of the sentence(s) offering that fact." SL93 (talk) 22:15, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

SL93 So. Can I put a note in the sentence with the fact in the article?TeenAngels1234 (talk) 17:32, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure where the confusion comes from, but I added the direct citation myself. SL93 (talk) 17:34, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Okay, then. Thank you.TeenAngels1234 (talk) 19:47, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

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Promoting to Prep 7 – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 10:55, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

The new video was directed by Masayuki

Who is this Masayuki guy mentioned in the article? --Trade (talk) 22:27, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Hegel image

The German philosophical term These used in the lyrics has been compared to the concept of thesis in the Hegelian dialectic [1] The text does not make this "comparison". It simply defines what kind of "thesis" is being invoked in the title, i.e., a proposition (as discussed in the above talk page discussion) rather than a term paper. It doesn't liken the title to Hegel himself in any way that would make his image relevant. It's misleading to say there is a connection. czar 16:12, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi, there. I'm gonna answer later, since I'm currently busy in RL. Be patient, please.--TeenAngels1234 (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry. I forgot about this. Although it is true that the sources do not indicate a direct connection, I still find it worthy of mention that they mention it and give this example. I tried a caption that did not suggest an inspiration or direct comparison.--TeenAngels1234 (talk) 15:13, 8 January 2023 (UTC)