Talk:Aberdyfi

RfC on compromise over alternate spellings for the area

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Over a month has passed since I started this discussion and the RfC template has already been removed by User:Legobot for having been expired on 28 April 2023. Over the course of this RfC no strong arguments for or against my suggested compromise were used and no formal agreement on a compromise has been reached. However, guidelines have been presented which should hopefully be helpful in justifying the current de-facto compromise of the name of the village and community especially WP:DIVIDEDUSE. However, I would like to suggest using the established anglicisations for other places within the community which are not notable enough to have their own articles e.g. Penhelig and Picnic Island as per WP:COMMONNAME. (non-admin closure) Tk420 (talk) 21:12, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

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I have considered starting another move discussion, on the long standing issue of whether to use "Aberdyfi" or "Aberdovey" to refer to the village in Gwynedd, Wales, in light of further research since Talk:Aberdyfi#Requested move 17 June 2019 as well discussions on similar issues (Talk:Bagenalstown#Requested move 16 August 2022, Talk:Snowdon#Requested move 18 November 2022 and Talk:Snowdonia#Requested move 18 November 2022) and data from the 2021 United Kingdom census, which is the nearest census to 2019 as well as the present day, on the Welsh language but I decided the an RfC would be more in line with my recommendation for a compromise as per WP:MLN. I have previously started a discussion on this on this talk page (see Talk:Aberdyfi#Compromise on usage of alternate spellings) but got no reply.Tk420 (talk) 21:36, 29 March 2023 (UTC)-edited

Full summary

My recommendation is to use the Welsh language spelling Aberdyfi to refer to the village and the community and the anglicised Aberdovey when referring to Aberdovey railway station and the lifeboat station as well as the area in the appropriate historical context. This has been the de-facto compromise since the separate Aberdyfi and Aberdovey articles were merged on 27 September 2004 and it seems to be generally satisfactory as it is seldom challenged. This practice is also used on Wikimedia Commons in which "Aberdovey" is described, in Category:Aberdyfi, as still common. In that same category are a number of images from Panoramio which use "Aberdovey" in the title and can still be seen on Google Maps and Google Earth. I also recommend avoiding the overuse of either spelling in the article. However, there is no apparent official rule to fall back on although the use of the anglicised spelling is occasionally challenged and continuing to enforce this de-facto rule without a written agreement in place could be seen as claiming ownership of the article when no one owns a Wikipedia article. If this compromise is agreed on, I would like to suggest adding an infobox to this talk page as well as in the edit source similar to the practise in the Derry article and its talk page e.g. My past comparison of this issue with the Derry/Londonderry name dispute has been criticised for being a "terrible analogy" but please note that we are supposed to maintain a neutral point of view (WP:NPOV especially WP:NPOVTITLE) without giving in to personal preference or politics. Unfortunately, other examples of places in the UK with multiple local names in English are not as well known (at least those disputes are not notable enough to have their own articles) and I would like to remind readers that there are differences between name disputes as well as similarities. To find an example other than Derry/Londonderry, there is Bagenalstown, County Carlow in the Republic of Ireland which is officially Muine Bheag but with its Wikipedia article having been moved on 26 August 2022 on the ground of "Bagenalstown" being the more common name among English-speakers in Ireland. However, unlike Bagenalstown both "Aberdyfi" and "Aberdovey" appear to be somewhat common in formal English even within Wales.

In case the need for a compromise is questioned, vs doing nothing or moving the article to Aberdovey, in trying to determine the more common name for the area in English as per WP:COMMONNAME I tried using Google Trends but the use of "Aberdovey" over "Aberdyfi" as a search term has been more common in all four constituent countries of the UK over the last five years as well as since 2004, suggesting the anglicised spelling is the more common exonym (name used by outsiders) although "Aberdyfi" appears to be more common in the mainstream media with some outlets (likely many after researching the following references) using the two spellings interchangeably including the BBC which is obligated to be impartial[1] which suggests that English usage is indecisive. In trying to determine the more common endonym (name used by the inhabitants in their language) many local businesses use the Welsh spelling with English words in their name and/or address though there are some exceptions suggesting English usage is also indecisive there. According to WP:MLN, one solution is to follow English usage where it can be determined, and to adopt the name used by the linguistic majority where English usage is indecisive. In trying to determine the linguistic majority in the community, the last two censuses turned out a result of less than 50% for those who claim to be able to speak Welsh although it is up to the individual to judge their ability in the language. e.g. DataMapWales claims that the prominence of Welsh-speakers in the area found by searching for "Aberdyfi" is 43.3% with an increase of 0.7% from last time. However, there appears to be three counting areas for the 2021 census in the community and the Welsh language version of this article claims that 30.3% of residents over the age of three could speak Welsh in the 2011 census but this is still a minority either way although the Welsh Government gives the percentage for the larger local area (immediately north of the Dyfi estuary) as being between 30% and 50% (see Map 3 in this source()). This suggests that the community is predominantly English-speaking and that the most common endonym and exonym for the area in English is different which complicates the issue. Also according to WP:MLN, "In some cases, a compromise is reached between editors to avoid giving the impression of support for a particular national point of view. For example, the reasonably common name Liancourt Rocks has been adopted, mainly because it is neither Korean nor Japanese. Similarly, Wikipedia's version of the Derry/Londonderry name dispute has been resolved by naming the city page Derry and the county page County Londonderry".

Across the four different levels of government involved in the community, there are variations to suggest even their usage is indecisive or they use different spellings interchangeably or under different circumstances suggesting the area qualifies as having multiple local names as per WP:MLN.

• The United Kingdom Government ("Westminster") appears to favour the anglicised Aberdovey considering its use by agencies that are or were nationalised by them e.g. Office of national statistics, Network Rail, Ordnance Survey (at least they use the bilingual Aberdyfi/Aberdovey when zoomed in and only the anglicisation when zoomed out on their map), Royal Mail (when I search for Aberdyfi Village Stores by its postcode (LL35 0EE) I get the anglicised spelling as its post town) and BT (at least Yell.com (website of the Yellow Pages which BT formerly owned) but it is used in the paper phone book for Aberystwyth anyway).
• The devolved Welsh Government uses the Welsh Aberdyfi almost exclusively although there are examples of the anglicised spelling used by agencies nationalised by them e.g. the Visit Wales article for Aberdyfi Beach uses "Aberdyfi | Aberdovey Beach" in the first instance suggesting they accept that many tourists remain accustomed to the anglicised spelling. The anglicisation is also used by Transport for Wales, which the has been owned by the Welsh Government since 2021, to refer to the main station though they are probably following the long established practice also observed by Network Rail and National Rail.
• The local principal area authority the Gwynedd Council (they stylise themselves nowadays by their Welsh name of Cyngor Gwynedd) also uses the Welsh spelling almost exclusively.
• The Aberdyfi Community Council uses the anglicised spelling on its website almost exclusively, including the tourism pages in which the logo features a signboard reading "Aberdyfi (Aberdovey)" which suggests they also accept many tourists are still accustomed to it although they use the Welsh spelling in their name (obviously) and in their Rushlight monthly newsletter, sometimes interchangeably, which can be assumed to be aimed at the locals.

Tk420 (talk) 21:36, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - This is a very long RfC filing. This article is Aberdyfi and we already have Aberdovey railway station and Aberdovey Lifeboat Station. The RfC is to enshrine these names as a compromise, yes? But supporting the RfC doesn't change any of them, because that is what we have now. Both other articles are so named because that is how they are named by their owners/operators, and neither has been subject of a move request. So why does this need to come to RfC? I don't think an RfC should enshrine a decision that cannot be overturned by a move discussion. Common names and the resulting consensus can change. Thus, at best this would be an editor advisory, wouldn't it? Or am I missing something? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:15, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

  You are correct in interpreting my proposal, which would not change any of the existing titles, for a compromise. As I have already mentioned, I am concerned that continuing to enforce the current de-facto compromise could be interpreted as claiming ownership of the articles, when no one owns a Wikipedia article, which is why I am seeking a written agreement to fall back on if it is challenged. Consensus can still be challenged in the future if someone presents a compelling argument. Tk420 (talk) 11:30, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

  I have been following this article for quite a while now, but have not seen much "enforcement" (indeed, not much activity). Surely it is covered by policy. Per WP:COMMONNAME. There is no ownership issue if you simply follow policy. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:54, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Sirfurboy: by "enforcement" I mostly mean my edits to the article to reflect this de-facto policy since 2019 such as the correction of "Aberdyfi Lifeboat Station" to Aberdovey Lifeboat Station, to be consistent with its Wikipedia article and based on usage by the RNLI. Another example of my enforcement is when I reverted an edit by an IP user who claimed that the anglicised spelling is obsolete (see en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aberdyfi&diff=1062664804&oldid=1062637872&diffmode=source) on 29 December 2019. Before my involvement, the article did already mostly follow the de-facto policy however.Tk420 (talk) 21:36, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - my understanding of WP:COMMONNAME is that if there is a commonly used English language name used for the subject, then we should use that on the English language Wikipedia. It's no surprise that the Welsh Government and the local Welsh language authority will refer to the town as Aberdyfi. However, the road signs and the town website use both names, suggesting 'Aberdovey' is still very much in use and hasn't died out (as has 'Caernarvon' for example). Sionk (talk) 15:13, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

  But that would be a move discussion for this page. The matter was considered in 2019 and consensus then was that Aberdyfi was the common name. Re-litigating that is possible, but would need an RM per WP:RFCNOT. This RFC might make it harder for such discussions to be entertained. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:41, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

  Not sure I understand the point of tbhe RFC then, it seems to be proposing the status quo. I'll leave you people to discuss not doing anything. Sionk (talk) 17:23, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

• In response to suggestions to go with WP:COMMONNAME, there are exceptions to this policy e.g. Kingston upon Hull is used as a form of natural disambiguation in its article's title with the city's more common name of "Hull" having no clear primary topic. However, both "Aberdyfi" and "Aberdovey" are unambiguous and previous suggestions on moving this article to Aberdovey have been controversial with the last move discussion (Talk:Aberdyfi#Requested move 17 June 2019) taking place in June 2019 without resulting in a move. There is also WP:NPOVTITLE in which a neutral name for a topic is preferred. There is also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names, for places known by more than one name, which I am suggesting my proposed compromise is based on. According to WP:MLN "In some cases, a compromise is reached between editors to avoid giving the impression of support for a particular national point of view." The name "Aberdyfi" could be presumed to be supported by nationalists and "Aberdovey" by the opposing side which might explain why the BBC uses the two names interchangeably considering it is obligated to be impartial although mainstream newspapers such of the right-wing Telegraph and the left-wing Guardian also follow this practice. Therefore, I would like to propose my suggested compromise if there is no clear neutral name for the community considering usage of both names is somewhat common in English language sources.Tk420 (talk) 21:35, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
• @Tk420: what is your brief and neutral statement? At over 15,000 bytes, the statement above (from the {{rfc}} tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for Legobot (talk · contribs) to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. The RfC may also not be publicised through WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:58, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Redrose64:I was unaware of Legobot (talk · contribs)'s limitations and I am unsure how to provide a shorter statement now that this RfC has already started. The reason my statement is so long is because the issue over the common name for the community is complicated according to my research. If I can suggest a shorter statement, I would like to just include the first paragraph from my original full statement with advice to read the full statement in this talk page. Then again, if this is not ideal can you please write a brief statement or find someone who can if I have not already solved this problem?Tk420 (talk) 21:35, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

  As you will see from this edit, it has had the desired effect. Thank you --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:21, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment Regarding Aberdovey railway station (and nothing else), speaking as a member of WP:UKRAIL since 2009, it has been the convention for as long as I can remember that when choosing a name for an article about a railway station, we use the name that is currently shown on station signage. We do not use the name of the associated settlement, we do not transliterate station names into other languages. Where a railway station has bilingual signage (as is the case for many Welsh stations), we use the English name for the article title, and use both names in the infobox and also in the lead sentence. For stations that are no longer open, we use the name that was shown on the station signage at the time of closure. So we should not rename Aberdovey railway station at the present time. If, however, Network Rail decide that the station signs should show only the single word "Aberdyfi", then there is no question that we would rename our article to Aberdyfi railway station once the new signs have been installed. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:42, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Redrose64: Can you provide a link to the convention if there is one? It could be useful to explain the issue in Talk:Aberdovey railway station in case usage of the anglicised spelling is challenged there.Tk420 (talk) 21:36, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

  Well, there are Wikipedia:Naming conventions (UK stations); Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Use English. Also, Template talk:Infobox GB station/Archive 3#Bilingual station names. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:42, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

• I have been reading Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) and discovered "Divided usage in English-language sources" (WP:DIVIDEDUSE) which might be applicable here. I have no doubt that Aberdovey is the most common name for the main railway station but I would say that usage of names for the village in English language sources is divided especially considering the interchageable usage by the mainstream media. WP:DIVIDEDUSE states to "Use what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article". I would say a reader from outside the community, particularly older generations, would find the anglicised Aberdovey less surprising, considering the comparisons I ran on Google Trends, but past discussions on moving this article have been controversial and WP:DIVIDEDUSE states in its final paragraph, which was adopted to stop page-move warring, "When there is evenly divided usage and other guidelines do not apply, leave the article name at the latest stable version. If it is unclear whether an article's name has been stable, defer to the name used by the first major contributor after the article ceased to be a stub". I would say the use of the Welsh spelling Aberdyfi has been stable as there have been no page moves despite controversial discussions. I have also read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Use English and discovered the second paragraph reads "If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local name. If more than one local name exists, follow the procedure explained below under Multiple local names". I have already quoted Multiple local names (WP:MLN), which is the basis for my suggestion for a compromise, in my full summary.Tk420 (talk) 22:00, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
• Other places within the community
  Firstly I would like to start with Penhelig (the more common name according a Google Trends comparison for the last five years as well as since 2004). The article cuurently uses its Welsh language spelling of Penhelyg although it uses the anglicised spelling to refer to Penhelig railway station (undoubtedly according to the convention set in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (UK stations)). Unlike with the village as a whole, it is hard to tell if the spelling for this part of the community is divisive locally. The only local business I can find to use it in its name is the Penhelig Arms Hotel although it uses the Welsh Aberdyfi in its address (both postal and website). However, there is a street called Penhelyg Terrace just south of the station spelled as such on the Royal Mail address finder. Then again, there is a street called Penhelig Road (according to Google Maps) on the A493 which appears on the RM address finder as Penhelyg Road as well as a house number plaque but I have so far been unable to find an official street sign for it. However, the community council uses the anglicised Penhelig for the area as a whole. According to the convention in WP:COMMONNAME Penhelig should be used in the English language Wikipedia unless someone can provide a compelling argument otherwise.
  Secondly there is the issue over Bryn Llestair (according to the Gwynedd Council who also claim it is also known locally as Ynys Picnic) but it seems to be better known as Picnic Island (according to a Google Trends comparison for the last five years as well as since 2004) which I have also seen in Ordnance Survey maps and on the community council website.
  Again, I would suggest using the more common English name as per WP:COMMONNAME unless someone can provide a compelling argument otherwise as it is hard to tell if it is divisive locally.Tk420 (talk) 21:58, 3 April 2023 (UTC)-edited

  I would suspect 'Penhelig' is a Welsh-ification of 'Penhelyg'. The Welsh Language Commisioner gives the name and spelling in both languages as 'Penhelyg' ...but there are far more words in Welsh that end in 'ig' than end in 'yg'. Sionk (talk) 11:34, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

  I forgot to check the media's usage for the aforementioned place names when I wrote the last comment. I have found this article on Wales Online which uses the anglicised "Penhelig" but the Welsh "Aberdyfi" and this article from North Wales Live which uses the anglicised spelling to refer to the car park but these have so far the only articles I could find that do not refer to the Penhelig Arms Hotel or the railway station.

  As for Picnic Island, I found this article from North Wales Live which uses the common English name and also refers to the Penhelig car park. but I also found this article in the Cambrian News which uses its Welsh name of "Bryn Llestair" as well as "Ynys Picnic" but it looks like its information was sourced from the Gwynedd Council. I found the artcles using the "News" filter on Google.Tk420 (talk) 21:14, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

• Speculation on future usage It has been claimed that, considering younger generations tend to be more accepting of name changes, "Aberdyfi" could become the universally accepted name for the area in the future. In response to this and in case such claims are raised in future discussions, I would like raise a point in WP:DIVIDEDUSE which states "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. It is not our business to predict what term will be in use, but rather to observe what is and has been in use and will therefore be familiar to our readers. If Torino ousts Turin, we should follow, but we should not leap to any conclusion until it does." Therefore, I would still recommend following the guidelines set out in WP:DIVIDEDUSE and WP:MLN based on the present situation.Tk420 (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
• Welsh language standards for road signs I am not sure if this is helpful but I found this article, about the controversy over the Welsh name on the approach sign to Llanelly Hill in Monmouthshire, claiming that the sign was not subject to current Welsh language standards because it was installed in 2015 before they came into force. In the case of Aberdyfi, it appears the use of only the Welsh name on new road signs has been standard for years (likely since the start of devolution) although the anglicised spelling was kept on the welcome signs when they were repaired and repainted over the winter of 2019/20 but this might be to appeal to tourists accustomed to the anglicisation.Tk420 (talk) 21:18, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

My image of the welcome sign on the approach to the village in 2023.

I have only recently learned how to access Google Street Views from the past on Google Maps and I discovered that the same welcome signs, as the ones in the most recent views (taken in August 2022) and in my image (taken in February 2023) appear in the oldest available views which bear the date January 2009. This was within ten years of devolution but this does not give us an exact age for the signs.Tk420 (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.