Talk:Aberdyfi/Archive 1

Archive 1

The name in English

Is this a private argument, or can anyone join in? Entertaining as it is to read the recent history page for the article, perhaps it might be better to carry discuss the name in the talk page? I had a poke around, and I was very surprised. I was expecting to find a straightforward "In Welsh pages, Aberdyfi; in English pages, Aberdovey" split on the web. But I'm not getting that at all. Both the BBC and the Gwynedd council web site seem to be using Aberdyfi in the English pages. And when I search the Gwynedd council website, in either language, I get 41 hits for Aberdovey, but 425 for Aberdyfi. So I'm not sure pointing to the council pages that spell it Aberdovey is entirely useful. Telsa (talk) 16:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

How about the OS maps or Royal Mail postcode finder then? Owain (talk) 17:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

You're quite right, Telsa, this discussion should most definitely be here. Anyway, with regard to maps: mine (OS and Collins) have both forms; then they also call the mountain that rises above Dolgellau Cadair Idris, even though the local name is Cader Idris. I think Rhion is asking Gwynedd Council for their official line on this, but I unofficially asked a solicitor I know who works there. She says "Aberdyfi" is standard now (I should mention that her first language is English and that's the language I asked her in). She added that "I think some of the English residents spell it Aberdovey, but I rarely see it these days" - you'll notice that I've changed "formerly" to "sometimes" in the first line of the article to reflect this. I might add that "Dovey" as a spelling for the river or its valley is generally very seldom used now. garik 11:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The person in Gwynedd who deals with this is away for a week - I've left her an e-mail. The view of the staff I talked to was that the instances of "Aberdovey" on the website were mistakes. Incidentally the web version of the Ordnance Survey map [1], presumably the most recent, uses "Aberdyfi", though it does have "Aberdovey Bar" marked. Rhion 17:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

To follow up from the above conversation - I've tried to clarify as best I can. I don't know why the Anglicised version has endured, when Tywyn, just up the coast, switched from Towyn back in the 1970s, but the old name is still used. See [2] for the OS map, (which shows both), and [3], which is the official station name.

I am wondering if anyone can help with a similar dispute in the Penhelig railway station article which is about a location in Aberdyfi. Please see Talk:Penhelig railway station for more information. Tk420 (talk) 20:40, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

I got a friend to submit a Freedom of Information request to authorities that continue to use the anglicism and so far there has been responses from Network Rail and Post Office Ltd though neither are sure of the UK Government's policy. According to Network Rail they do not hold any recorded information explaining why there has been the continued use of bilingual names for Aberdyfi/Aberdovey and Dyfi/Dovey and they would only change the name if they can get financial support for the cost given the station’s name has been established over many years, that particular spelling of the name is contained within a number of their systems and processes such as the National Passenger Timetable, the station lease, their operational systems (for example, their computer system used for monitoring the progress of trains and tracking delays), their finance systems, operator systems, land and mapping, etc.. It is possible the same is true for BT and Royal Mail which would explain their continued use of the anglicised spelling.

According to Post Office Ltd, which uses the anglicisation on its website, 'On speaking to the branch, they've confirmed that the sign outside their store shows Aberdyfi, not Aberdovey'. I already knew the local branch is hosted in Aberdyfi Stores as it can be seen on Google Street View. Tk420 (talk) 11:35, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Darwin

Added a ditty on the golf course Cubaking (talk) 23:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Bells of Aberdyfi (song)

I think the song and its history merits an entry of its own, and that we should move the words from this page to the new one. Clearly the cultural associations with the village should stay on this entry, such as the church bells and the recent sculpture. Harlech and the song "Men of Harlech" provides a similar examples, and has two entries. I will do this soon if this is an agreed consensus view.Jrfw51 (talk) 20:57, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe there are currently insufficient reliable sources that give significant mention to the folk song to warrant a separate article. The article would have nothing to say! If you can find more sources that focus on the folk song, that would be great. GDallimore (Talk) 23:40, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Wales in United Kingdom

Of course Wales is in the UK, but that is not needed in this article. See other similar entries: Harlech, Porthmadog, Aberystwyth, Cardigan, Carmarthen all simply state "in Wales". Please consider reverting this again for consistency.Jrfw51 (talk) 07:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. It just sounds silly to say "on the west coast of Wales in the United Kingdom." As you say, no one disputes that this is accurate information; it's just unnecessary, and inconsistent with other articles about British towns and cities (like Portsmouth, York, Llanelli, Falkirk, or Ramsbottom). We might as well add that they're in Europe. garik (talk) 03:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Residents and associated people

I've changed the heading to "Notable people associated with Aberdyfi" as some of the people included had holiday homes or were frequent visitors rather than residing permanently. And can we have some references in the public domain to recent additions.Jrfw51 (talk) 16:51, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

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Requested move 17 June 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No move. Both names appear to be in use, but the consensus here is that the sources suggest "Aberdyfi" is the common name in English-language sources. Cúchullain ^t/c 13:04, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

---

Aberdyfi → Aberdovey – I have not necessarily started this discussion to enact an actual change but to hopefully resolve this edit war regarding the name of the village in English. Tk420 (talk) 12:35, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

• Comment WP:COMMONNAME states use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. Although Wikipedia prefers the use of terms common to all varieties of English it allows the use of a particular dialect (the formal not colloquial) if there are strong national ties to the topic (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English). However, there are region-specific guidelines for place names (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) which states that search engine results should be used with caution) but there is no mention of which name to use for places in Wales if the English and Welsh names are different although there is the section Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names which might be relevant here. In other Wales related articles editors appear to follow the style set out in Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Ireland-related_articles#Place_names but that is for Irish names. I have suggested having such a guideline in Wikipedia talk:Welsh Wikipedians' notice board but to no avail. As this article is about a place in Wales and this is the English-language Wikipedia it would make sense to use the best known name among English-speakers there. Judging by the earlier comments in this talk page Aberdyfi appears to be the name favoured locally but I am unsure of the most familiar name across Wales as a whole. On further research I discovered that the Welsh spelling is favoured by the Aberdyfi Community Council, the Gwynedd Council, the Welsh Government and the BBC while the anglicised Aberdovey is favoured by online maps, Network Rail, National Rail and Transport for Wales. The same goes for the river Dyfi and the Dyfi Valley while Dyfi Forest has become more or less universally accepted in English. The official website for the village uses the address aberdyfi.com while another website, aberdovey.org.uk, mostly uses Aberdyfi saying it is the generally accepted spelling describing Aberdovey as the olde English spelling though most map and routefinder sites accept both spellings these days. As for paper maps road atlases use the anglicised spelling, even ones that use bilingual names for larger towns if the official name is different in the two languages, while Ordnance Survey uses the bilingual Aberdovey/Aberdyfi. It has also been commented in the talk page for the article Penhelig railway station that other places such as Caernarfon have officially dropped the anglicised spelling but this does not seem to be the case with Aberdovey. It has also been argued that tourists might be more familiar with the anglicised name as it used in on the signs on the approaches to the village as well as some signs, with others solely using the Welsh name, pointing towards the village from elsewhere, as seen on Google Street View, as well as by the railway companies and major maps. The Welsh spelling might have come to used colloquially by English-speakers locally given it is shorter than the anglicism and it is pronounced the same when the Welsh pronunciation has not been universally accepted when referring to places where the official spelling has been changed, especially by older generations who remember the official anglicism, e.g. for Tywyn then again local accents and dialects especially colloquialisms are mainly oral rather than written. If no consensus is reached it might make sense to stick with using Aberdyfi for the village and Aberdovey for the main railway station which appears to be the current compromise. Tk420 (talk) 12:35, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - The name that it is called by its inhabitants, by its Community County, by Gwynedd Council and by the Welsh Assembly is Aberdyfi. The river is the Dyfi after which it is named. Simply because tourists in Victorian times chose to call it Aberdovey gives that name no more authority than any other Anglicization of place name the world over. Should we revert to Peking or Bombay just because our colonial forefathers used those names? I think not. So let us not persist with these colonial views in the naming of Welsh places.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   20:13, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

• Support You raise a problem faced across English wikipedia. Many of these local language names are used because of legislation that obliges government related authorities to use them in preference to the English names. The Welsh language act will do the same. Activists and politically correct people with an agenda will then latch on to this to promote, artificially, the use or importance of the local language spelling. Wikipedia does not follow the legislation of any particular country so we should be very careful of these local spellings. Stick to reliable sources. In my view, if a source is using the local language spelling because it has to by law then that source is unreliable and should not be used. Over time, the local spelling will start to be used by English speakers and so RSs will then use it and so the local spelling will become the English spelling. When that point is reached can be determined by a RS count. Velella misses the point. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 20:53, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

• Comment I forgot to mention in my previous comment that Wikipedia uses the anglicised spelling for the song The Bells of Aberdovey (song) which appears to be part of the current (apparently unofficial) compromise. By 'tourists' I meant modern-day tourists e.g. I became familiar with the anglicised Aberdovey in the late 1990s or early 2000s, when the web was still in its infancy, owing to its use on the station nameboards, on the road signs and by the major maps. This was before I started using Wikipedia in 2007 after which I became familiar with the widespread local use of the Welsh spelling. I also forgot to note that during the British Rail era (1948-1994) the names of railway stations were changed accordingly when the names of the places they served were officially changed and heritage railways also followed this practice. The continued use of the bilingual Aberdyfi/Aberdovey by the current railway companies, by Royal Mail in the Post Town and by the maps and road signs implies that the name of the village has not been changed officially.

Regarding the last Oppose comment I would like to remind readers that Wikipedia is meant to be officially neutral (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view especially Wikipedia:Article titles#Neutrality in article titles) so can we please put politics aside when trying to seek consensus?

I stated this discussion in the hope of getting an official compromise, if consensus is not reached, maybe based on the current practice of using Aberdyfi for the village and Aberdovey for the main railway station and in the title of the song The Bells of Aberdovey Hopefully an official compromise can also be reached for the river Dyfi/Dovey and the Dyfi/Dovey Valley Tk420 (talk) 21:19, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose The name of the settlement is "Aberdyfi" in both English and Welsh, per the Welsh government. The appropriate Wikipedia Guideline is WP:WIAN and it states: "...the following sources may be helpful in establishing a widely accepted name: ...Maps ...Many governments have an agency to standardize the use of place names". Since this is the government agency that standardizes place names in Wales, and the Ordnance Survey follows this standard in Wales, it seems clear that Wikipedia should also use "Aberdyfi", not the obsolete "Aberdovey". Railfan23 (talk) 01:41, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

The Welsh language commission [4], that claims the English spelling is Aberdyfi, is independendent of the Welsh government. Its operating guidelines state: The principal aim of the Welsh Language Commissioner, an independent organization established under the Welsh Language Measure (Wales) 2011, is to promote and facilitate the use of Welsh. This entails raising awareness of the official status of the Welsh language in Wales and imposing standards on organizations. Neutral? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

The Commission is politically independent, but is a statutory organisation set up by the Welsh Government under the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011. It is the official arbiter of the use of the Welsh language in Wales. It does regulate and promote the use of Welsh, per the relevant Acts and Measures it operates under. It is exactly the body whose opinion Wikipedia should follow on Welsh place names. Railfan23 (talk) 14:49, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Both spellings are readily found and are used. As stated above, "Aberdyfi" is now the norm in current English sources. But where the other spelling is used, keep it unless/until it changes. Jrfw51 (talk) 14:36, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

By 'English sources' I presume you mean sources written in the English language and not sources from England? Tk420 (talk) 22:38, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

• Comment I have since noticed that the RNLI uses the anglicised Aberdovey for its lifeboat station which is also used by the Wikipedia article and the anglicised spelling is also used for the River Dovey in the article about the river and the bilingual spelling is used on the sign on the approach to the bridge carrying the B4404 across the river east of Llanwrin. I have checked the online Ordnance Survey map [5] (zoom in over the village) which uses the bilingual name for both the village and the river which is also in my paper OS Explorer map after reading the OS policy listed in User:Railfan23's comment. The use of one name over the other may imply bias which is why Wikipedia prefers to use neutral names if possible. In the case of possibly the most controversial name dispute in the UK (the Derry/Londonderry name dispute in Northern Ireland), in which both names have a political connotation with Derry favoured by nationalists and Londonderry by unionists, a compromise was reached on Wikipedia in which Derry is used for the city and Londonderry for the county (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names (again)). To use another example from the island of Ireland, in which Wikipedia guidelines say to use the English name if the Irish name is official but has not yet gained acceptance in English, it has been pointed out that domestic tourists know the English name for the town of Dingle, which is reliant on tourism like Aberdyfi/Aberdovey, better than An Daingean or Daingean Uí Chúis although it is in the Gaeltacht where Irish placenames are mostly the official ones nowadays. Although search engine results should be used with caution I have typed 'aberd' into Google UK and in the predictive text 'aberdyfi' comes up seventh after 'aberdovey', 'aberdovey weather', 'aberdovey hotels', 'aberdeen', 'aberdeen fc' and 'aberdaron' which suggests there are more searches for 'Aberdovey' than 'Aberdyfi'. Tk420 (talk) 23:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
• The current OS maps do indeed use both names for the village but I'd note that the community is just "Aberdovey". It does indeed seem like "Aberdyfi" is the Welsh name and "Aberdovey" is the anglicised name. Crouch, Swale (talk) 07:43, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

I have noticed the same in my paper map which is the 2008 edition of OS Explorer for Cadair Idris & Llyn Tegid (OL23). However, the Community Council uses Aberdyfi in its name although the map only uses Aberdovey for the community. Tk420 (talk) 22:16, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

• Comment I have since noticed that, according to my research on Google and the websites of local businesses, some local hotels and a golf course use Aberdovey in their name and all use it in their address (some with Aberdyfi in brackets) along with the lifeboat station, the Post Office and some shops and restaurants which I take as another sign that tourists are more familiar with the anglicised spelling and that it is an official name in English. I also forgot to mention with reference again to Ireland, which like Wales has English as its dominant official language alongside an indigenous Celtic language, that some anglicised place names there are pronounced the same as their Irish-language counterparts and Wikipedia guidelines Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Ireland-related_articles#Place_names say to use the English spelling if the two names in English and Irish are the same or similar but spellings differ e.g. use Inishmore not Inis Mór. Tk420 (talk) 22:16, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per Jrfw51. Deb (talk) 09:22, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

• Comment On a trip to my local library, to check offline sources, I found the BT Phone Book for Aberystwyth which covers Aberdyfi/Aberdovey in which the anglicised Aberdovey is used for the post town in addresses in both the business and residential listings. I also checked the latest Ordnance Survey maps in the nearby WH Smith outlet in which the latest OS Explorer and Landranger maps both use the bilingual name for the village, the river and the Dovey Valley but the less detailed OS Road and Tour maps solely use the anglicised spelling. I also checked the road atlases and the AA atlas uses the Welsh spelling solely while the Phillips atlas solely uses the anglicised spelling while the Phillips street atlases use the bilingual Aberdovey/Aberdyfi. In the major travel guides to Wales The Rough Guide solely uses the Welsh spelling in its map while the Lonely Planet guide solely uses the anglicised spelling in its map although the Welsh spelling turns up when I find accommodation on their website which uses Booking.com for such searches. Looking back online Yell.com, the website of the Yellow Pages which recently discontinued its print run, uses Aberdovey in the address of businesses listed. The same happens when I type the postcode for a local business in the address finder on the Royal Mail website Aberdovey is used for the post town even if the business in question uses Aberdyfi in its name. I take the use of Aberdovey by BT, which manages the telephone infrastructure, Royal Mail, which provides the postal service, the Yellow Pages, which is a reputable business directory, Ordnance Survey, which is a reputable map maker, Network Rail, which maintains the railway infrastructure, and National Rail which runs the train ticketing structure as a sign that the name of the village has not been changed officially and the use of Aberdovey and Dovey by some local businesses as a sign that the use of the Welsh spelling has not gained universal acceptance in English even locally. Tk420 (talk) 22:38, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

• Comment I have just noticed that the anglicised Penhelig (as opposed to the Welsh Penhelyg) is used to describe the east side of the village in the article which seems ironic to insist on using the Welsh Aberdyfi rather than the potentially more familiar anglicised Aberdovey for the village as a whole. In wondering if the anglicised Aberdovey is the more familiar spelling among domestic tourists from other parts of Wales, as well as England, I took the opportunity to ask someone who was born after 1974, when the official anglicisms for places like Conwy and Porthmadog (Conway and Portmadoc respectively) were dropped, and was educated in Newtown in northern Powys and is sure that Aberdovey is the more familiar spelling there. Regarding my Google searches in which the predictive suggestions might be based on most popular searches by location given I would have thought there would be more searches for Aberdeen in Scotland. I searched from Shropshire though Google has previously mistaken my location for Wrexham which is the largest town in north Wales. I have also checked Visit Wales (possibly the Welsh sector of Visit Britain (the UK's official tourism agency)) website and using its search box I got more results for 'Aberdovey' than 'Aberdyfi' (108 to 80) though the usage of the two spellings varies between articles. Tk420 (talk) 23:23, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

I have since discovered that Visit Wales is the tourism agency of the devolved Welsh government. Tk420 (talk) 22:14, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

• Collection of comments The following has been copied, to keep this discussion in one place, from a discussion I started on Talk:Penhelig railway station in 2016 under the heading Name of the village in English after I found Aberdovey being used to refer to the village despite the contrary in the Aberdyfi article Tk420 (talk) 21:56, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

There appears to be a dispute on whether to use the the Welsh name (Aberdyfi) or the anglicised version (Aberdovey) in this article. On other Wikipedia articles Aberdyfi is used to refer to the village and Aberdovey to refer to the main railway station. There has been a similar discussion in the talk page on the Aberdyfi article in which it has been said that the Welsh spelling is standard nowadays. On further research I discovered that the Welsh spelling is favoured by the Aberdyfi Community Council, the Gwynedd Council, the Welsh government and the BBC while the anglicised spelling is favoured by online maps, Network Rail, National Rail and Arriva Trains Wales. The same goes for the river Dyfi and the Dyfi Valley while Dyfi Forest has become more or less universally accepted in English. The official website for the village uses the address aberdyfi.com while another website, aberdovey.org.uk, mostly uses Aberdyfi saying it is the generally accepted spelling describing Aberdovey as the olde English spelling though most map and routefinder sites accept both spellings these days.

I would still suggest using Aberdyfi to refer to the village and Aberdovey to refer to the main station to be consistent with other English Wikipedia articles. Tk420 (talk) 12:14, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia (there is also Wicipedia Cymraeg, which has articles like, for example, Gorsaf reilffordd Penhelig and Aberdyfi). It's called "English" because that is the language that it is written in; and where a place has two names, we use the English one, see WP:UE. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:53, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Also, this edit was contrary to WP:BRD. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:55, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Actually the manual of style does contain region-specific guidelines for placenames (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)) but there is no mention of which name to use for Welsh places if the English and Welsh names are different. In other Wales related articles editors appear to follow the style set out in Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Ireland-related_articles#Place_names but that is for Irish names. I have decided to post a message in the talk page to the Aberdyfi article to see if anyone can help. Tk420 (talk) 20:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Great to see you two getting all Lyfi Dyfi here, but yes, I agree it needs to be decided as a high-level article style convention. Normally what a community calls itself might be the best indication. But in this case that might disregard hundreds of years of glorious Anglo-Welsh railway history? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Most of the time when a Welsh place name was changed the name of the railway station serving it was changed accordingly, e.g. Towyn station became Tywyn and Portmadoc is now Porthmadog, and heritage railways have also followed this practice. However the railway companies still use the anglicised versions for Aberdovey and Dovey Junction. Tk420 (talk) 18:21, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

I've just 'driven' into Aberdovey/Aberdyfi on Google Street View and they have both names on their signs at the entrance to the village (as is normal in Wales with most placenames). It strongly suggests Aberdovey is the English spelling, rather than the 'old' spelling. Other places such as Carnarfon have officially dropped the English spelling, but this doesn't seem to be the case with Aberdovey. Being in the Welsh-speaking heartland of Gwynedd it doesn't surprise me that the locals prefer the Welsh version, but I imagine visitors (including me) still know it as Aberdovey.
I'm surprised the English Wikipedia uses Aberdyfi as the name, but I see there was a heated edit war in 2005/6 where the 'Aberdovey' supporters backed down, though the discussion on the Talk page seemed to be unresolved. Maybe the discussion needs to be revived and concluded there. Sionk (talk) 21:41, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

I checked Google Street View myself and have noticed the same with the signs on the approach to the village. However I have noticed differently with the direction signs. The signs pointing towards Aberdyfi in Gwynedd tend to only use the Welsh name for it. I presume this is because the Gwynedd Council which is responsible for the signs favours the Welsh spelling. I also found a bilingual sign pointing to Aberdyfi/Aberdovey in Machynlleth, which is in Powys, but the biligual sign for the Dyfi Eco Park up the road only uses the Welsh spelling for the nearby river which the park is named after. Tk420 (talk) 18:21, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

On further research with online maps I discovered that Google Earth uses Aberdovey while Google Maps uses Aberdyfi and Bing Maps uses the bilingual Aberdovey/Aberdyfi. As for the hamlet of Glandyfi across the river, only the Welsh spelling for it is used on today's maps and road signs though I have seen the anglicised Glandovey on old maps. Tk420 (talk) 21:00, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Since then I have become more willing to move the article to Aberdovey having now seen the continued use of the anglicised spelling by BT, Royal Mail and some local businesses. Tk420 (talk) 21:56, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

• Collection of comments The following has been copied from Talk:River Dovey under the heading Untitled to help reach consensus here as the situation there is similar and there are references to Aberdyfi/Aberdovey in some comments.

The OS map says River Dovey / Afon Dyfi. Wouldn't it be better to use one of these names rather than half n half English and Welsh?--JBellis 12:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

You're right there. Welsh is too beautiful a language to be bastardised like this. Howard Alexander (talk) 12:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

My feeling is that it should be at River Dyfi. Not only is it more popular according to the Google test (see Dovey - 9000 vs Dyfi - 18000) but most authoritative sources have it at Dyfi: BBC, Environment Agency, Countryside Council for Wales, Gwynedd council, Powys council, Wales tourism, for example. It was the most widespread spelling during the April Jones story last year. Gareth (talk) 14:56, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Either Afon Dyfi or River Dovey. River Dyfi is a horrible mixture of the two languages. RGCorris (talk) 15:53, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I disagree: you're assuming that Dovey is the canonical English name for the river. Nowadays we have the River Teifi and River Conwy even though, historically, they were often referred to in English as Tivy and Conway. The same process seems to be happening with the Dyfi. Furthermore, rivers with Welsh names tend not to be called Afon xxx in English. Gareth (talk) 16:22, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

When the name "Aberdovey" disappears from road signs (rather than, as at present, doubling up with "Aberdyfi") I will accept that the canonical English name for the river has changed from Dovey to Dyfi. RGCorris (talk) 12:26, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

That's like saying that the River Afan should be at River Avon (as it was referred to historically in English) because the English name of Aberavon hasn't reverted to Aberafan. Town names tend to be less changeable than river names; this shouldn't be a reason for the Wikipedia page to carry the less widespread spelling. Gareth (talk) 17:06, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

To me a choice should be made. The article is headed River Dovey, but starts with River Dify, which is confusing if you are not familiar with this river. A compromise could be possible if the article stated (for example): The River Dyfi (Afon Dyfi in Welsh) often known as River Dify, .... Although I am not familiar with the area, it has been suggested that the estuary is seen as the divide of North and South Wales. If this is true, maybe that should be in the article. JHvW 08:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

It is not known as, or referred to in the article, as Dify. "Dovey" is the traditional English spelling, "Dyfi" the Welsh spelling. RGCorris (talk) 10:54, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

I may be stupid but the article is titled River Dovey. The first line starts The River Dyfi. How does this explain "It is not known as, or referred to in the article, as Dify"? The river is obviously referred to as Dify, my point is that there should not be corruption. If Ordnance Survey refer to it as River Dovey or Afon Dyfi, I really do not care, but the name should be consistent. My thinking is that if the valley is called the Dyfi Valley and the long distance walk is called the Dify Valley Way, is it not logical that Dify is the more usual than Dovey. So the article, in my mind, should read: The River Dovey (Afon Dyfi in Welsh), although generally known as the river Dyfi....... JHvW 21:36, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

You seem to be unable to distinguish "Dify" (no such word) from "Dyfi" (the Welsh name for the river). RGCorris (talk) 09:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

The usual policy on the English-language Wikipedia for naming articles is to use the formal name most familiar to English-speakers. I have checked the latest paper Ordnance Survey Explorer and Landranger maps and both still use the bilingual Dyfi/Dovey for the river unlike with the River Conwy in which they solely use the Welsh spelling. I have also checked the BT Phone Book for Aberystwyth, which covers the local area, and while some businesses in Machynlleth and Aberdyfi/Aberdovey, in which the book uses the anglicised spelling for Aberdovey, use Dyfi in their names others continue to use Dovey which I take as a sign that the Welsh spelling has still not gained universal acceptance in English. I am also sure that the road signs on the approach to bridges across the river used the bilingual Afon Dyfi/River Dovey as recently as this decade. Tk420 (talk) 21:05, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

• Questions I have three questions for any readers from the local area that might help to determine which name is the most familiar to English-speakers across Wales 1) If you have Aberdyfi/Aberdovey as your post town which spelling do your utility companies use for it in your address, e.g. for bills, when they write to you? 2) If you hold a valid driving license which spelling for Aberdyfi/Aberdovey appears in your address there? 3) If you have access to the last paper edition of the Yellow Pages for the local area which spelling to they use for Aberdyfi/Aberdovey in the address for local businesses including ones that use the Welsh spelling in their names? Tk420 (talk) 21:56, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

• Comment There is a similar name dispute with Criccieth/Cricieth which is also in Gwynedd. The English Wikipedia article for it uses Criccieth which is the one claimed to be an anglicism by those against it. Whether the Aberdyfi/Aberdovey article is moved or not I see the need for a section on etymology, like in the Criccieth article or a 'name' section like in the Derry and County Londonderry articles. The need to avoid confusion to those unfamiliar with the name dispute is one reason for the compromise over Derry/Londonderry on Wikipedia. Tk420 (talk) 20:24, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Usage of spelling by the mainstream media

Since the recent move discussion User:Colin M has pointed out a BBC News article from 2018 using the anglicised 'Aberdovey' although the common usage of the Welsh 'Aberdyfi' was an argument against moving the article in the discussion. Using the search term 'Aberdyfi or Aberdovey?' on Google I have found a number of news articles with both spellings appearing to be used interchangeably with some using the Welsh spelling and others using the anglicised spelling with at least two using the anglicised spelling in brackets although 'Aberdyfi' appears to be more common in the national broadsheets and compact papers with more local sources preferring to primarily use the Welsh spelling although I have found Wales Online use the Welsh spelling primarily in one article and solely using the anglicised spelling in another. It is worth remembering according to WP:COMMONNAME 'Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)'. According to Wikipedia:SOURCES reliable sources include university-level textbooks, books published by respected publishing houses, magazines, journals and mainstream newspapers.

In thinking about how to explain this in the 'Name' section I am considering using the sources that use the two spellings interchangeably i.e. the BBC, the Telegraph and Wales Online therefore including the national broadcaster, a national broadsheet and a regional news outlet. Tk420 (talk) 21:07, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

On second thought I have decided to included a VisitWales article considering the village is one of the nearest seaside resorts to a large part of mid Wales as well as the English West Midlands hence the tourism. Tk420 (talk) 13:52, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

References

Compromise on usage of alternate spellings

This entry is for future reference should an official compromise as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names be necessary. I am not intending to start such a discussion at present because the current de-facto compromise of using the Welsh-language Aberdyfi when referring to the village and the community and the anglicised Aberdovey when referring to the railway and lifeboat stations as well as the folk song The Bells of Aberdovey based on common English-language usage outside Wikipedia, in practice since the merging of the separate Aberdyfi and Aberdovey articles on 27 September 2004, seems to be generally satisfactory and has been seldom challenged since the last move discussion. Therefore, I would like to suggest including the current compromise in an official guidance should one ever be written or implemented.

In case the compromise is challenged in a future discussion, I would like to point out the Aberdyfi Community Council as a public body which uses the two spellings under different circumstances in contrast to the Welsh Government and the Gwynedd Council which both use the Welsh language spelling almost exclusively. On the English-language version of their website, they use the Welsh spelling in their name (obviously) and in the Rushlight monthly newsletter. They otherwise use the anglicised spelling almost exclusively including in the tourism pages. I take this as a sign that they are aware that many outsiders remain accustomed to the anglicised spelling as opposed to many locals (to whom the newsletter is presumably aimed). I only discovered the usage by the Community Council website earlier this year otherwise I would have used it in the last move discussion but I have decided to include it in case the need for a compromise is questioned.

As for the given pronunciation of the name, IP user 2A00:23C6:7C14:9801:3577:A1AC:120A:48D3 claimed that the English pronunciation was incorrect while also trying to remove the anglicised spelling. I would like to point out most English speakers in England and Wales do not have rhotic accents (typically found in the West Country, Scottish, Irish and most US and Canadian accents) and would therefore not pronounce the R like in a rhotic accent and instead reduce "er" to the mid central vowel represented by the IPA character ə (schwa) pronounced like the "a" in Rosa. Therefore, I would like to suggest including a non-rhotic pronunciation with the anglicised spelling. Tk420 (talk) 15:26, 2 March 2022 (UTC)-edited

On second thought, I have since discovered that it is standard to give the pronunciation of the "er" sound as /ər/ although the "r" can be ignored by speakers of non-rhotic accents, according to Help:IPA/English#Dialect variation, so I have decided to include it in the anglicised pronunciation in this article. Tk420 (talk) 21:47, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Since my last entry, I learned the words 'endonym' (name used by the inhabitants) and 'exonym' (name used by outsiders) (see the endonym and exonym article on Wikipedia) in a Geofocus video on You Tube (Turkey CHANGES its Official Name) which discusses countries which changed their official names in recent years (apologies for the low source volume). To try to find an older example of a similar naming dispute, the government of Ivory Coast has officially preferred the French name Côte d'Ivoire to be used in every language since 1986, which was before the current Gwynedd Council or Welsh Government existed, but this has not stopped 'Ivory Coast' from being the most common name in English for that country nearly 40 years on. I was reminded of this by a recent Google Trends comparison (a source recommended by WP:COMMONNAME to help in determining the most common name for an entity) in which there were more searches for 'Aberdovey' than 'Aberdyfi' (Google Trends Aberdyfi vs Aberdovey (past five years)) over the past year as well as the past five years and since 2004 in all four constituent countries of the UK even including Wales. Then again, it has been suggested that the name of a town (or village and community in this case) does not tend to be as changeable as the name of a river e.g. Aberavon is still more common in English than the river Afan it is named after. Therefore, I also ran a Google Trends comparison for the river and found there were more searches for 'River Dyfi' from within Wales but more searches for 'River Dovey' from England (I could not get data for Scotland or Northern Ireland on this) (Google Trends River Dyfi vs River Dovey and Afon Dyfi (past five years)) which suggests that Aberdyfi and Dyfi are the most common endonyms but Aberdovey and Dovey are still common as exonyms despite the almost exclusive usage of the Welsh spellings by both the Gwynedd Council and Welsh Government. This does not surprise me considering that many outsiders including tourists from England as well as other parts of Wales do not have contact with the named authorities' usage of the Welsh spelling and might be more exposed to the use of the anglicised spelling used by the railway companies and some local businesses, many of which are tourist oriented, and so a compromise on Wikipedia suggested by Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names might be desireable. Tk420 (talk) 22:06, 16 August 2022 (UTC)