Talk:Abu Kabir

Abu Kabir - Givat Herzl

Abu Kabir is the WP:COMMONNAME used for this neighborhood. "Givat Herzl" is used almost exclusively in official publications. Abu Kabir the neighborhood is in the same place it was when Egyptians were imported into it in the 1830s. Same place. Same name. Same article.

Tiamut's attempt to WP:OWN this article by opening a new one for Givat Herzl (not the common English name for this place as I'm sure she knows) doesn't hold water and looks like an attempt to game the system. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:25, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

you have no idea what "game the system" means so stop saying it. nableezy - 16:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Funny meeting you here. Thank you for your productive contribution, though. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:36, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Nableezy stalks me at my pleasure, much as I stalk Huldra at hers. What's your excuse for stalking me here? Because yours is not one I enjoy. Tiamut^talk 16:47, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I once again encourage you to submit a formal complaint if you think I'm stalking you.

It would be nice if you would address the points I raised above rather than trying to change the subject to your persecution complex. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:53, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I addressed them below. Please answer the question: How did you come to this article? Is it just another coincidence in the long line of coincidences whereby I make a couple of edits to an obscure article and shortly thereafter you appear? Or is their a more straightforward explanation? Tiamut^talk 16:58, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I came to this article from Abu Kabir Forensic Institute, which using your logic you stalked me to.

It's put up or shut up time, honey. Either make a formal complaint or stop harassing me with your frivolous accusations. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Your logic is faulty. Abu Kabir Forensic Institute was created on October 2nd using material taken from this article. When it disappeared, I naturally followed it to its new location and put it on my watchlist. That's my explanation. Yours is once again unconvincing. But you are right, I should make a formal complaint, instead of carrying on here. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 17:42, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

You edited an obscure article right after I did. You call that stalking when you're not the one doing it.

Don't forget to notify me about where you're making your complaint. I hope they will consider your repeated harassment when they see your complaint is without merit. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:49, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal

As stated above, Abu Kabir is the WP:COMMONNAME for Giv'at Herzl. The two names describe the same place. The two were artificially severed and should be merged. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose "Abu Kabir" is an Arabic place name with a long history of use. It is true that the Israeli neighborhood of Tel Aviv named Giv'at Herzl is also unofficially named "Abu Kabir", a fact mentioned in this article, since it deals with the use of the name today. However, Giv'at Herzl is a neighborhood with its own history, having been founded after the 1948 war. Trying to pretend that it is the same place as the historic neighborhood of Abu Kabir (an Arab neighborhood that was depopulated and destroyed in 1948) isn't right. There is room for two articles here. They are two distinct subjects, each with its own history. Tiamut^talk 16:46, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The WP:COMMONNAME for Giv'at Herzl is Abu Kabir. The two are in the same physical location. The history of the place is continuous as is the usage of the name Abu Kabir.

Also, Abu Kabir doesn't fit the definition of Place names of Palestine to which you linked it. It existed for only about 100 years as a neighborhood of Egyptian immigrants. Its toponymy has no historical significance since the place is relatively new and anyway artificially established without preserving a name of a place that existed in the same area in the past. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:24, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The WP:COMMONNAME and the name used commonly among locals are not the same thing. Please provide evidence that "Abu Kabir" is the most common name for the Tel Aviv neighborhood of Giv'at Herzl.

Please also read Place names in Palestine again. It also mentions that place names for new residential areas that had no prior names known to the locals were given uniquely new Arabic names. Tiamut^talk 17:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Please note that Hochelaga which can refer to an Iroquois village in North America or the Canadian neighborhood of Hochelaga in the same area (among other things) has separate articles to cover both, even though in their case, they share the same name officially. Tiamut^talk 17:40, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• Strong and obvious support—let's end this fiasco of having the exact same place have 2 or 3 articles because it was called different things at different times. The Jewish neighborhood is known as Abu Kabir today because it is where the Arab Abu Kabir was. It is therefore not a different subject. Will Tiamut also split the article Jaffa into several articles based on the contemporary rulers of the city? Abu Kabir is not such a notable place that it justified splitting into time periods based on history (unlike Jerusalem for example, for which you might have History of Jerusalem in the Ottoman Empire, and then History of Jerusalem in the Middle Ages, etc.) —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:40, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

On the one hand, you speculate that I might split Jaffa into several articles based on the contemporary rulers of the city, while on the other, you cite Jerusalem as an example of an article that should be split into several different articles based on rulership in history. Jaffa has just as along a history as Jerusalem, so splitting it up should be okay (using your logic).

I think 60 years of history is nothing to scoff at. Giv'at Herzl neighborhood probably did a lot of interesting things on its own since its founding after 1948 and it would be worth having an article on that subject. I also think that the building of Sakhanat Abu Kabir in 1834, its growth into a suburb of Jaffa, its experiences during the war and its depopulation and destruction are a subject worthy of their own article as well.

However, if you insist in supporting a merger, you first need to provide evidence that Abu Kabir is the most common name for Givat Herzl. Please do so. Tiamut^talk 17:50, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

1) The issue isn't about age, but about notability. An article about the history of Abu Kabir up to 1948, if existing, should be called History of Abu Kabir before the 1948 Arab–Israeli War (just like my point about Jerusalem). Just to be clear, such a split for Jerusalem would be made from History of Jerusalem per WP:SIZE and WP:UNDUE, which obviously cannot be applied to Abu Kabir, and I'm sure you will agree that "History of Abu Kabir before the 1948 Arab–Israeli War" would be a ridiculously narrow subject to cover anyway.

2) I don't need to "provide evidence" for anything. As I have told No More Mr. Nice Guy, the name of the article matters much less than the content. Giv'at Herzl and Abu Kabir are the same place, and either name could suit the article. Rename it to Giv'at Herzl if you wish, but have it include the history of Abu Kabir as well. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:58, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

If you do not want to provide evidence attesting to Abu Kabir being the most common name for Giv'at Herzl, then there is little point in continuing to discuss with you. We do not write here according to what you know to be true. We write using WP:RS. There are a number of sources discussing the history of Abu Kabir (the Arab village founded by Egyptians in the 19th century). A couple of these take a sentence to mention that the area this village occupied is now occupied by the Israeli neighborhood of Giv'at Herzl. One of these notes that Giv'at Herzl is the official name of the Israeli neighborhood. Per WP:PLACE (which is the relevant naming guideline for places), the modern official name of a place should be used and in cases of controversy is preferred - i.e. the Israeli neighborhood should be discussed under its official name.

There are ample sources discussing a historical place called Abu Kabir that was destroyed and depopulated in 1948. One of those that discusses it today describes it as a former village that is a now a green space east of Jaffa in greater Tel Aviv. That historical place and its name deserve their own article. The article on Giv'at Herzl can mention that another name for it is Abu Kabir and link back here for a description of Abu Kabir's history. This is very straightforward. All the more so, since you have declined to provide sources that might support your claims. Tiamut^talk 18:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

According to WP:PLACE "if a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it". The forensic institute is commonly refered to as being in Abu Kabir in the English speaking media. That's even the name used here on wikipedia. The institute was built after 1948. Same goes for the prison. Do you really need sources for this? Also, a google books searchs shows "Abu Kabir" to be more common than "Givat Herzl". I can provide the numbers for that if necessary. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:50, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

There are two places here: a historical place known as Abu Kabir that was destroyed in 1948 and an Israeli neighborhood built at the same site which is officially known as Givat Herzl. That it is also colloquially known as Abu Kabir does not make it Abu Kabir. Abu Kabir was destroyed and replaced with the green area that is now there. WP:PLACE says that, If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. If there is no such name in English, use the historical name that is now used locally. This article should be called Abu Kabir.

Givat Herzl surely has enough reliable sources discussing it alone to warrant an article. Doesn't it? If not, it should not be pretended here that the history of Abu Kabir belongs to Giv'at Herzl. A brief mention that the area is known by that name today, as in the case of articles that discuss Abu Kabir cited here, is all that is warranted really. Any larger discussion of Givat Herzl should be in an article on it (if an article is indeed warranted - there are only a few Israeli neighborhoods that are notable enough to have had articles produced on them to date. Tiamut^talk 19:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Support - these are the same place. Millmoss (talk) 18:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

While they are located at the same site, they are not the same place. Abu Kabir was a village founded in the 1830s by Egyptians that became a suburb of Jaffa until it was destroyed in 1948 and depopulated. After the war, the same area was named Givat Herzl and became a neighborhood of the greater Tel Aviv municipality, inhabitated by other people. Locally, people still refer to the area sometimes as Abu Kabir. However, its mostly institutions in the area that are referred to this way. In fact, we should do a review of the sources to see if there is any support for the notion that the present day Israeli neighborhood itself is known by this name. Tiamut^talk 19:13, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

here's a history of Tel Aviv University saying it was originally in "Abu Kabir" in the 1950s. I'm not sure what you mean by "mostly institutions in the area that are referred to this way". The fact that the institutions are referred to as being in Abu Kabir proves that's what people call the area. By the way hewiki has an "Abu Kabir" article but no "Givat Herzl" article, as you can probably see for yourself. That's how common "Givat Herzl" is. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:35, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not looking for WP:OR. The link you gave me does not mention the name "Giv'at Herzl". While it uses the term "Abu Kabir" a lot, it seems to be referring to the "Abu Kabir campus" of Tel aviv University. That's not evidence that Abu Kabir is the name of the Israeli neighborhood of Givat Herzl today. Sorry.

I'm looking for a source that says what the first sentence of this article now says, after Milmoss' restoration of your edits. Abu Kabir (Hebrew: אבו כביר‎) (Arabic: ابو كبير‎), also known officially as Givat Herzl (Hebrew: גבעת הרצל‎, lit. Herzl's hill), is a neighborhood located in the southern part of Tel Aviv, Israel. There is no such source as far as I know. I'm still looking. In the meantime, I've added a fact tag to it. All the sources cited describe Abu Kabir as a neighborhood, village or town made up of Egyptians who came to the area in the 1830s. That place was destroyed in 1948. These facts are noted the sources. No sources say what our first sentence says. If you have some that do, please provide them. Tiamut^talk 19:49, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

(out)I added a couple of current maps showing that Abu Kabir is a neighborhood of Tel Aviv. Also, check out Tel Aviv Light Rail you'll see there's an "Abu Kabir" station on the Green Line.
I'm not sure what you're saying above. That there is an "Abu Kabir" neighborhood, but it's not the same as "Givat Herzl"? If that's the case, I have to ask you what source you used for the Giv'at Herzl article you opened. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

You did not provide a source that says Abu Kabir is an Israeli neighborhood. The maps prove nothing. Destroyed Palestinian villages regularly appear on such maps. these do not prove anything that is said in the first sentence of our article.

The sources cited in the article say that Abu Kabir was a neighborhood or village or town founded by Egyptians that became a suburb of Jaffa and was destroyed in 1948. I opened the Giv'at Herzl article using the material you wrote here on Giv'at Herzl. I assumed in good faith that there are sources discussing such a place. Where are they? And where do they say what is said in the first sentence of this article? Tiamut^talk 20:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for butting in here, but I just have to reply to this... "While they are located at the same site, they are not the same place". This is the strangest statement I've ever heard from a Wikipedian. It's like saying... "the number 2 looks like the number 2, but it's actually not the same number". They are different names for the same place, and even your own sources say this. Please stop going in circles with this, as you have already provided ample sources yourself that they are the same place. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:20, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Is Beit Nekofa the same place as Bayt Naqquba? A village that once existed and was depopulated and then another village was built on that land are in fact the same village? nableezy - 20:46, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Not going into excessive detail on every specific case (and you can find dozens on Wikipedia), there is a general understanding on WikiProject Israel that these things should be almost all be merged eventually. Indeed, including Bayt Naqquba and Beit Nekofa. Make of that what you will, but the argument is irrelevant here as WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:50, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

(EC) I am not arguing based on other articles existing. I am asking if a village, I just used that one as an example, is depopulated and a new village is built on that land are they the same village. nableezy - 21:02, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going in circles, but people sure are going out of their way to avoid presenting sources that establish that Abu Kabir is an Israeli neighborhood rather than a historical village/neighborhood/town that was destroyed in 1948, which is how the vast majority of reliable sources describe it. If the name Abu Kabir has since been used to refer (apparently) to refer to Giv'at Herzl, it should be easy to find a source that says this. Not SYNTH theories using maps that don't mention Giv'at Herzl and not SYNTH theories that say because the Institute is named that way that's the name of the neighborhood (not mentioned in the text). A real source.

In any case, our first sentence should reflect what reliable sources say. Since the majority of sources here are describing a historical place, that's what the first sentence should be concerned with. Its notability is as a historical place. And please stop making bad faith accusations to avoid providing sources. I'm continually asked to do so and oblige without bickering. It would be nice if others did the same and took requests seriously, not trying to pass off half-proofs just to put up the appearance of collaboration. Tiamut^talk 21:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Please check ref #4 in the article. It specifically says "...Abu Kabir (later to become Giv'at Herzl in the Israeli period)". Easy enough? I assumed you read the article closely and were requesting additional sources.

Our first sentence should certainly reflect what the reliable sources say. That Abu Kabir is a neighborhood of Tel Aviv which is officially known as Givat Herzl. Which is what it said before you created Giv'at Herzl to make a WP:POINT. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that source too. But it doesn't say that Giva't Herzl is the official name of Abu Kabir. Nor does it say that people call it that informally. I don't know who added that phrasing, and I'm trying to find the source that supports it. All the Dumper source says is that Abu Kabir later became Giv'at Herzl. It doesn't say that Giv'at Herzl is still known as Abu Kabir, by whom or how. Tiamut^talk 21:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Lets try to break this down for a second. Do we all agree that there is currently an area in Tel Aviv that is called "Abu Kabir"? Where the forensic institute and prison are, where TAU used to be and where the Green Line of the TALR is going to have a station? Where the sabil and its park are? The place google maps sends you to when you do a search for "abu kabir"+"tel aviv"? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:01, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Meanwhile, here are a couple more sources making the connection Abu Kabir->Givat Herzl [1] [2]. Also, the "garden" you just added to the "Today" section is the Nature Gardens you moved to the other article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:27, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Those sources do not indicate the relationship between the terms. They reinforce what Dumper said (that Abu Kabir became Givat Herzl in the Israeli period). They don't say if Givat Herzl is a neighborhood. They don't say if the name of that neighborhood today is Abu Kabir, either informally or officially.

Anyway, I've made some changes to the article based on the sources cited. This is an article about the historical place named Abu Kabir. A place founded by Ibrahim Pasha and destroyed in 1948. All the institutes, the prison, the forensic institute, the zoo, the gardens that are informally called Abu Kabir were built on what was once that village, but they are not that village. Each of the places can have their own article. They can be mentioned here briefly. But they are not synonyms for one another. Tiamut^talk 23:33, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. The current neighborhood of Abu Kabir in Tel Aviv (do we even have a disagreement it exists?) is where the previous neighborhood of Abu Kabir was. It's the same place with the same name, even with some of the same houses. This is not an uncommon thing throughout history. I also think your changing every instance of "neighborhood" to "village" is incorrect (and contradicts many of the sources), but we'll deal with that after we decide about the merge.

This is an article about the Abu Kabir neighborhood near Jaffa. It used to be an Arab neighborhood and now it is a Jewish one. Separating the two into two nearly identical articles with an identical history section is artificial and serves no purpose. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:53, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Please provide sources that discuss Abu Kabir today as a Jewish neighborhood in Tel Aviv. Practically every source cited here is discussing a historical, now destroyed village/neighborhood that was Arab and was depopulated. Hardly any of them discuss the current neighborhood, its name or relationship with Abu Kabir. Abu Kabir was a place with people that disappeared after it was destroyed. It is not magically transformed into an Israeli neighborhood and only that just because you say so. See Hochelaga again. You can have mutliple pages on the same place, even if it has the same name as places that came before it, when they cover different historical time periods and were populated by different people. Indeed, these are not buildings we are talking about, but a place that was alive, had people living in it who named it after their hometown. When they were kicked out and it was destroyed and new buildings were built on top on it, it's history as a living place ended. A new place was built there named Giv'at Herzl. Go write an article about it. I'm sure its a lovely place, but it is not Abu Kabir. Tiamut^talk 00:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

We've already provided several sources that discuss Abu Kabir as a current neighborhood of Tel Aviv, including current maps and current usage of the name. Add to that the fact that there are several institutions that were created after 1948 that are referred to as being in Abu Kabir and I really don't see how you can deny that it exists right now with that name in the same place it has been since the 1830s. Unless you want to change the name of this article to History of Abu Kabir until 1948 or Arab Abu Kabir or some other name that denotes the exclusively Arab nature of the article you envision, arbitrarily cutting the history of a current place with the COMONNAME of Abu Kabir out of a more comprehensive article doesn't seem to jive with the policies of this encyclopedia. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

There is still no source calling "Abu Kabir" a Jewish neighborhood in Tel Aviv. When you have one, I'll be happy to discuss including that information in the article. There is a source that says in parantheses that Abu Kabir later became Giv'at Herzl. I don't know if Giv'at Herzl is the name of a neighborhood or district or what. For that matter, I don't know what Abu Kabir in the present context refers to. The reason I do not know this is we have no sources describing these matters. Maps from the internet showing the location of Abu Kabir as being in Israel are not evidence of it being a neighborhood there. Lots of places that no longer exist come up in those map searches. I've found all kinds of historical sites coords using them but they are not evidence of a present day neighborhood in Tel Aviv being named Abu Kabir. Just find the sources that say what you want to include and there should be no problem. Tiamut^talk 00:51, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

(out)A google map search for "Abu Kabir, Tel Aviv" shows it's a neighborhood of Tel Aviv not an historical site. I'd really like to see some historical site show up as being in Tel Aviv. If you have one, please post.
Here are some more sources Abu Kabir, Tel Aviv and Abu Kabir, Jaffa (in 1982). To be honest I doubt if anything I post here will convince you of the obvious, but I'll keep doing it for the benefit of other editors. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Abu Kabir, Tel Aviv-Yafo. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

It is hard to follow this argument. The facts seem to be pretty clear: (1) Abu Kabir is today the informal/popular name for a district of Tel Aviv-Yafo that is officially called Giv'at Herzl. (2) It is so-called because of the Arab village/neighborhood that was at that place until 1948. Does anyone disagree with (1) and (2)? It seems to me that both should be stated in the first two sentences. Since most of the article is about (2), it is not reasonable for the leading sentence to only state (1), and silly for the lead to contain chronological nonsense (no Tel Aviv neighborhood was founded in 1832). Zero^talk 11:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, "Abu Kabir, Tel Aviv" is also used on formal documents. See below. I don't agree most of the article should be about (2) above, since Abu Kabir is pretty obviously the COMMONNAME for Givat Herzl. There was a neigborhood called Abu Kabir and there still is one in the same place. There should be one article. Do we always split the article of every settlement that was abandoned for a while and then resettled into multiple articles? I mean outside the IP conflict.

Abu Kabir, Tel Aviv. Official document.

Abu Kabir, Tel Aviv.

Abu Kabir, Tel Aviv. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:23, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I have no objection to there being only one article. An example is Ashkelon, which was an ancient (Philistine etc) city, then an Arab town (al-Majdal), then an Israeli city. The article can include sections that deal with each of the main historical components and the lead should summarise them. Zero^talk 11:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy we agree. Could you indicate your support for a merge on an outdent so it will be easier to see when we sum up the merger proposal? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:48, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm currently expanding Giv'at Herzl. People might to read it as it develops. I'm not sure how anyone can state with certainty that Givat Herzl=Abu Kabir. Particularly since Givat Herzl existed before 1948, seemingly beside Abu Kabir (or very nearby). It would be good before people insist that these are the same place that they establish exactly what we are talking about. Using reliable sources. Tiamut^talk 21:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

We have already provided multiple reliable sources that say Abu Kabir is now Givat Herzl. If your one source is correct, then there are two options. Either Abu Kabir was absorbed by Givat Herzl or Abu Kabir is a neighborhood of Tel Aviv in its own right. Either way, its history doesn't cut off in 1948 as it's still around still being called Abu Kabir. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

But if Giv'at Herzl existed before 1948, when Abu Kabir was still around, they were not the same place. They have different histories made up of diffferent people. I think you're right that Giv'at Herzl expanded into the area previously occupied by Abu Kabir and its people. The fact that Abu Kabir is used a name for a lot of things and possibly places in that area today is an interesting fact, but these are clearly two different places, even if the land area of one has to come occupy where the other was. I remain of the opinion that they are better covered in separate articles. Tiamut^talk 22:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm not sure how to proceed. I think we need to find a source that describes what happened since we're just speculating now. But if Abu Kabir was absorbed by Givat Herzl, or attached to it, or whatever (and we have multiple sources saying Abu Kabir became Givat Herzl), then I guess we have to look at is usually done in similar situations where you have two distinct places that later become a single unit. This is not unusual, but I can't think of an example right now. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The plot thickens. Levine's book has two references to a Jewish neighborhood called Givat Herzl in 1937-1938 (p202, 359). And the Palestine Post of June 02, 1936 has "Givat Herzl, on the Jaffa-Tel Aviv boundary". I don't think Abu Kabir was on the Jaffa-Tel Aviv boundary! And yet, when Google maps is asked for Givat Herzl it sticks its little marker on exactly the spot where Abu Kabir used to be. Zero^talk 23:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I wonder where Google gets its coordinates information? Do we have any detailed maps of Jaffa during the period of the Mandate? It would be interesting to see a map when both of them were around to see where they were located in relation to one another. Tiamut^talk 00:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I will inspect large scale town plans from 1944, 1950 and 1954 in a few days. They are in a library that is some distance away and I'm very busy lately. Zero^talk 01:57, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Another place named Abu Kabir

There is also a district of Abu Kabir in Egypt, a major marketing center for the Delta region. [3] We may need to disambiguate this article from other (future) articles. I'm also going to try to find some more information on why it was named so and if there is any direct relationship to this Egyptian locale. Tiamut^talk 18:01, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

There is. Ariel Encyclopedia, Vol. 1, p. 4: "... [Abu Kabir] was founded in the mid-19th century by immigrants from Egypt who named it after their home town, Tel Abu Kabir in lower Egypt. ..." —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Not so familiar with Egyptian geography. I wonder if the village is located in the district mentioned above? In any case, we should certainly add to our discussion of this already in the article that they named it after their hometown. Some unfamiliar with Semitic languages might not see the resemblance between the names. Tiamut^talk 21:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I believe I added that information a couple of days ago. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:18, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I saw it. I'm talking about making the phrasing more explicit. Not everyone will understand they named it after their hometown, as per Ynhockey's source phrasing. Tiamut^talk 21:19, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

That's my bad then since that's what I was trying to convey. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

That's cool. I think people who speak Semitic languages are apt to understand that implicitly from your sentence. It's those unfamiliar with them that might miss the connection if its not explicit. Can I rephrase or would you like to? Tiamut^talk 21:41, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Go right ahead. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't "sakhanat" mean "neighborhood of"? I noticed you called it a village in the article. While I've seen some sources call it a village, I think the name implies it was considered a neighborhood. Morris refers to it as a neighborhood several times.No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd have to see the original Arabic to determine what the word actually is. The way its transliterated, it looks like something "hot", but its more likely to referring to thakanat, a word for a military camp. The village was first founded as a residence for Egyptian soldiers who fought in Pasha's army (if I'm not mistaken). Anyway, this is totally OR speculation. It would be better to find a source with more detail, which is what I was urging above. Tiamut^talk 23:25, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I copied that incorrectly. I meant saknat. Not neighborhood? From the root of "to dwell"? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:01, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Dumper transliterates it "sakhanat", though I notice Israeli sources tend to transliterate it Saknat. Yes, saknat is derived from the verb sakana, to dwell or reside. It would translate closer to something like "dwellings" or "residences". This could be referring to the buildings being ready to house people, but no, the word doesn't mean neighborhood per se. Anyway, like I said, its best to find out what reliable sources have to say that for us to play detective. I notice you said Morris calls it a neighborhood. Should we make a list comparing how the different sources describe it? That might help in determining how much weight to give to different terms in this article. Tiamut^talk 00:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I got it from here (note: I had another source which I can't find right now that implied the four people that were killed in the incident described here were actually shot by the British, which is why I didn't add it to the article yet). Anyway, sure, lets compare the sources. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll start doing that on a sub-page. Here's on to start: The Palestine Exploration Fund survey translated Saknet Abu Kabir as the "settlement of Abu Kebir; p.n.; (great father)"[4] So there's another sourced POV on the name's meaning worth adding. More to come. But I'm not sure how much more tonight, given that local time here is 2:43am. Tiamut^talk 00:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Clermont-Ganneau calls it a "hamlet". Upon further reading, I think it started out as a village and then when it grew and Jaffa expanded towards it, it was considered a neighborhood. By 1948 it seems it was known as a neighborhood of Jaffa, which is why Morris calls refers to it as such. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

SWP

The SWP map (1880s), sheet 13, shows four population centers within the orchads surrounding Jaffa (but not adjacent to the town of Jaffa). They are Sâknet Hammâd, Sâknet Abu Kêbir, Sâknet Abu Derwîsh and Sâknet el Jebâlîyeh. The map key says Sâkneh = "suburb", but the Name List volume and the Index volume both translate Sâknet Abu Kêbir as "Settlement of Abu Kabir". I will upload a portion of the map. It will be interesting to see where it sits with respect to present maps. Zero^talk 00:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Zero. I just posted about the SWP definition by by Conder above too (synchronicity it seems). Anyway, I also just had a look at the map and noticed that by 1885 when the maps were surveyed it does look like Saknet Abu Kebir was attached to Jaffa. However, that is orchard area between them if I'm not mistaken. It is possible that sources might continue to refer to it as a village and/or suburb of Jaffa (all these terms are used) as well as later on, a neighborhood of Jaffa (as the city expanded) and then later as sitting at the entrance to the city of Tel Aviv before being depopualted, destroyed and then rebuilt as Giv'at Herzl. Tiamut^talk 00:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is orchard between Jaffa and Abu Kebir. It is clear that Abu Kebir started as a sort of satellite village of Jaffa but eventually became swallowed up as Jaffa expanded. The next question is when that happened. Here (if these links are robust, ask me if no map appears) is a map that shows Jaffa and Abu Kebir almost connected by solid buildings. The map says "Second edition 1941" but also "Compiled from large plane table detailed surveys 1924-1934". I guess the extent of the built-up area of Jaffa is for 1941, since this is a War Office map and such detail would have been very important then. Can we find a 1947-9 map? Zero^talk 02:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC) (I found a 1944 map at 10 times the scale, but not on the web. I'll report back later. Zero^talk 02:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC))

Mark LeVine

What's the source for the following quote? "It won't be acceptable to us for Abu Kebir to be Arab again". I can't find it in the LeVine ref (or anywhere else that google indexes). Same for "If there will be [an] Abu Kebir again, this would be impossible". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Its page 212 of this book by Mark LeVine. I think the problem is I mistranscribed the punctuation. One of the commas should be a dash. If the link I gave you doesn't pull up page 212, just search for "Abu Kebir" or go to that page and it will come up. Tiamut^talk 19:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC) "

cemetery

I believe your source is talking about the Tasso cemetery wich is near Abu Kabir. It is the only Muslim cemetery in the Jaffa area. Here's a good overview in Hebrew [5]. There's a legal battle over ownership of half the plot the cemetery is on. It's not actually in Abu Kabir though. It's in Tel a-Rish (now Holon). No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:19, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps. Still, she seems to be a reliable source. Her usage of "Abu Kabir" is interesting. Since we don't have a source describing it as an Israeli neighborhood, paying attention to how Israelis, and others describe it in reliable sources is next best thing. Tiamut^talk 00:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Your source is mistaken. It happens. I don't see what's "interesting" about putting incorrect information in the article. This is pretty well publicized due to the legal battle, so you can look it up if you don't take my and hewiki's word for it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:30, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

By the way, your source is also mistaken about the year. In 1973 the Wakf sold half the plot (the half that wasn't being used as a cemetery at the time) to developers and that's when the problems started. Doesn't seem like a "reliable source" in the traditional sense of the term. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:39, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it possible there is more than one mosque controversy? There are many mosques and cemeteries around which there have been controversies. I would hold off a bit before jumping to conclusions that what appears to be a reliable source has gotten it so damn wrong. Tiamut^talk 01:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

You know, the point where you are willing to put factually incorrect material into an article just so you can use the words "Abu Kabir cemetery", which after the amount of research on the topic I'm sure you've done, you don't have another reference for, is the point where you might want to step back and consider if that's the best thing for the encyclopedia.

I mean, waxing poetic about a winter pond or repeating information for the sake of writing "the former village of..." is one thing. But this is just plain wrong. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Could you stop demeaning my contributions here? Thanks.

About the source, what makes you so sure its the same mosque controversy? Like I said there are tens of cemeteries and mosques that belong to the Waqf that Israel exercises control over and there are tens of protests for each of those places. Please assume good faith of your fellow editors. Until I see a source that directly contradicts the information in Peled, I'm not going to assume the worst of her either. Tiamut^talk 13:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but a couple of paragraphs about a winter pond that's not even in the place this article is about and then another half paragraph comparing the Arabic word for pond with the Hebrew one doesn't seem very encyclopedic to me. But it seemed important to you so I left it be. I'm not trying to be demeaning, I'm giving my honest opinion about your edits.

As for the cemetery, do as you will. I think you've done enough research to know it is not about Abu Kabir, but I'm tired of trying to fix stuff that I know will result in an edit war. You have made this article less accurate just so you could put the words "Abu Kabir cemetary" in it. That's really all I have to say about that. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:54, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Funny, Abu Kabir Cemetery is used as a proper name (capitals and all). This seems to be the same place Peled is discussing. You are right that this may be the Tasso property, which may be located nearby, but not in Abu Kabir. But I don't think the sources we have say the Jewish cemetery was located in Abu Kabir itself historically either. Clermont-Ganneau seems to indicate they were in the gardens between Abu Kabir and Jaffa. Note the Tasso property is described by Ha'aretz as being beside the "Abu Kabir detention facility."

Also Abu Kebir cemetery is mentioned in the Israeli archaeological reports linked. Note it says "Abu Kebir cemetery once covered an extensive area of nearly 100 dunams (25 acres). The tomb recently uncovered was the outermost burial on its western ..." (1974).

I think there are enough sources referring to an Abu Kebir cemetery to make its inclusion relevant to this page. Yes, we have to do more research to more clearly understand what is being called what and where they are and if they overlap and etc, etc. Its the nature of this conflict it seems.

The rest of your comment is directed at me personally, my motivations, etc., and I've learned no amount of protest or reasoning will change the minds of those made up. No point in wasting bytes. Tiamut^talk 19:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:51, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Not justified. I presented you with a number of sources. You gave me only your opinions of my editing above. Try to engage the content please. Tiamut^talk 20:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The two google books references you posted above are the same document, of which we have exactly two lines.

The fact you think this has something to do with "the nature of this conflict" is quite baffling. All I did was point out an inaccuracy regarding something I happen to have some knowledge about. The Muslim cemetery in which Muslim burials are still being carried out and which is the subject of a legal battle is not and has never been in Abu Kabir. It is in what once was Tel a-Rish. Nothing was slated for development there in 1992 (it was in a Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem, though). They don't usually "uncover" tombs in a cemetery that has only been used for 35 years. If there's an Abu Kabir Cemetery you can make a whole section about it for all I care. I don't understand what you think this has to do with the conflict. Perhaps you could explain.

Anyway, like I said, do as you will. I gave you all the information I have. I'm not going to edit war with you over this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by No More Mr Nice Guy (talk • contribs) 21:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I've removed the paragraph that you are concerned about: "Alisa Rubin Peled writes that, "cemeteries such as Abu Kabir near Tel Aviv," were slated for development by the government in 1992. In protest, the Islamic Movement attempted to reclaim this cemetery by conducting new burials, before being thwarted by government authorities. I don't yet agree with you regarding your conclusions about the source. But I am willing to remove it until the sources can be more closely examined. Its not your commentary that won me over. I just think the issue of where and what the Abu Kabir Cemetery is, where the Tasso property is (described by Ha'aretz as being beside the "Abu Kabir detention facility") and the Abu Kebir cemetery is, and the Abu Kabir cemetery Peled is referencing is - All of this is still unclear and needs more research before it can be adequately represented to the reader. I see that Mikveh Israel, mentioned by Clermont-Ganneau as being one of the areas that the tombs lay under is located in Holon. according to one of the maps presented by Zero. Anyway, my OR speculation is about as useful as yours. The only way to resolve the issue is more reading. In the meantime, the offending passage has been excised. As to the rest of your comment/question, it doesn't concern the article's improvement, to which this page is dedicated. Tiamut^talk 23:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your willingness to remove the material and I'm open to looking at other sources but honestly I'd be very surprised if any that support the idea that the Tasso cemetery is in or called "Abu Kabir Cemetery" turned up. By the way, I'm not questioning Peled's being a reliable source per se. I'm saying she made a mistake. These things happen.

I believe Mikveh Israel is indeed in Holon right on the border with Tel Aviv. Looking at google maps, it's about a kilometer from the forensic institute. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:13, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

here is a project about the Tasso well house (in Hebrew). An interesting read in and of itself, it discusses the cemetery at length. There are some maps on page 5 and onwards that show exactly where this is. As you can see see, it's south of the old Jaffa-Jerusalem road. I don't think we've seen any source that considers this area to be part of Abu Kabir. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:17, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Funny, I was just going to ask you if you knew where the Abu Kabir detention center was in relation to Mikveh Israel. The Tasso property is said to be adjacent to the detention center, not the forensics institute. If the forensics institute in not in Abu Kabir (the historical neighborhood) then why is it named Abu Kabir?

I think the major problem besetting this page is that we do not know what the boundaries of the historical village/neighborhood were. Nor do we know what area "Abu Kabir" refers to in Israel today. We know there are a number of institutions in Israel named for Abu Kabir and that there was an Abu Kabir campus for Tel Aviv University. Do all these institutions lie outside the boundaries of the historical neighborhood? Or just some of them? I think its dangerous for our article to imply that these institutions are in a place called Abu Kabir, when it seems they ahve simply adopted the name of the old village/neighborhood, without being located exactly within its boundaries.

Further, if this article is going to discuss these institutions that are outside of the historical area of Abu Kabir, then we can certainly discuss the cemetery in the Tasso property, which Peled calls the Abu Kabir cemetery. If we decide not to include mention of that cemetery because it is outside Abu Kabir's historical boundaries, why are we including mention of other institutions named Abu Kabir when they are also outside? Tiamut^talk 13:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

First, here are some sources referring to the current neighborhood of Abu Kabir. [6] [7] [8]. Let me know if you think this is enough to call it a neighborhood of Tel Aviv.

The detention center is the big building with the circular structure in the middle. It is built on the site of the old British Abu Kabir police station which you probably saw mentioned in the Palestine Post, the detention center may have got it's name from that. I'll try to find out. The forensic institute certainly seems to me to be in the area of Abu Kabir per the map Zero posted below. By the way, Derech Ben Zvi is the old Jaffa-Jerusalem road and Derech Yigael Yadin is the border between Holon and Tel Aviv.

We can decide if we only want things that are strictly in Abu Kabir (assuming we can agree on rough boundaries for that) or not. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:51, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I just looked at the map and I noticed that a part of route 20 (Ayalon Highway) is also called Derech Hel HaShiryon. That is also the Tel-Aviv/Holon border. Closer to Mikveh Israel. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:59, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The sources you provided are interesting, but only one of them seems to be referring to Abu Kabir as a present day neighborhood; i.e. the entry at ArchNet discussing Sabil Abu Nabbut. In this brief entry on the Sabil (which does not seem to have been located in the historic village), it is mentioned in passing in parantheses, "(in the location of the today's Abu Kabir neighborhood)". It's not clear to me what the source means by that. We still have no idea what the boundaries of "today's Abu Kabir neighborhood" are. Also, what is the relationship to Giv'at Herzl, which you have insisted is exactly the same place by another name? Where is Giv'at Herzl in relation to "Neve Ofer (Tel Kabir)" which is mentioned in this article Haaretz as an Israeli neighborhood founded in orange groves (I'm assuming those beside Abu Kabir)?

My biggest concern here is that we are engaging in original research. While the historical Abu Kabir is a rather well-established subject, the Abu Kabir of today (what the term is used for, and if it used for an area/neighborhood, where its boundaries lie) is totally unclear so far. I still think Giv'at Herzl should be discussed in a separate article. I also think we need to cut down the Tel Aviv University information (make it more concise). I'm waiting to see more sources before doing so. It seems though that Tel Aviv University was first founded on top of where the historic Abu Kabir once stood. Tiamut^talk 14:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

All three references are to a current neighborhood called Abu Kabir. The Sabil one is very specific. "Today's Abu Kabir neighborhood". It doesn't need to define exact boundaries to show current usage, and as I pointed out earlier, Tel Aviv neighborhoods usually don't have well defined boundaries. Also, the fact the Sabil wasn't in the historic village is irrelevant. It is now in the Abu Kabir neighborhood of Tel Aviv.

There's also something in the Mark LeVine book, but google won't show it to me (over my quota?) so I don't know if it's relevant or not.

Why do you think the Tel Aviv University stuff should be cut down? It's an important institution and this is an important part of its history.

Your assumption about the orange groves being in Abu Kabir is OR. I removed it from the article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I've opened a section below to discuss the issue OR (i.e. whether the orange groves of Tel Kabir where Neve Ofer was founded were in fact the same orange groves outside Abu Kabir). I think you will notice if you read the article that they are (the Bilium are mentioned as having been there too, just as in our article on the groves now). I'm willing to wait for more explicit information before reincluding it though.

About your sources, like I said, only one discusses Abu Kabir explicitly as "today's neighborhood." One of the others says, "The Old Han in Abu Kabir. Location: The Abu Kabir Neighborhood, Jaffa." Note the neighborhood is described as being in Jaffa. That indicates (to me at least) that they are not talking about the present-day neighborhood, which you say is in Tel Aviv. The other is less clear to me. But still, all three references are not from high quality RS's. I would like to see more, since its been days that we have been researching this subject now and three oblique internet references (two from archaeology sites that users can add to, and one from a tourism site), aren't enough to settle the matter for me. Is there no official Israeli source listing the neighborhoods of Tel Aviv? Tiamut^talk 16:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

About Mark LeVine, I managed to access the page in the book. Its discussing the historic neighborhood of Abu Kabir and I added the relevant information to the article. Tiamut^talk 16:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

origins of Givat Herzl

Givat Herzl started life as a locality in Abu Kabir. Take a look what I found in the Palestine Post of 1 Oct 1939. It is a legal notice of auction of a Jewish-owned property. It includes (quotation marks in original):

1. Locality: "Givat Herzl", Abu-Kabir Quarter, Jaffa.

10. Particulars of building: The property is situated at the end of Herzl St. in a place called "Givat Herzl" comprising two buildings.

The wording is ambiguous but I think "two buildings" refers to what is being sold, and doesn't mean that Givat Herzl consisted of two buildings. From this evidence I infer that Givat Herzl was originally a name given to a Jewish section of Abu-Kabir. Also note that Abu-Kabir is referred to as a "quarter" of Jaffa, not as a separate village. Zero^talk 01:53, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

As if that is clear as mud, on August 15, 1947, Palestine Post has a story about a Jew stabbed "while leaving a carpentry shop in Givat Herzl". Other workers at the factor pursued two Arabs "running towards Abu Kabir". So they are considered distinct places. I guess: Givat Herzl was the Jewish part of town and Abu Kabir was the Arab part of town. Zero^talk 02:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

And on August 17, 1947, "Abu Kebir Quarter...has since been quiet. ... In nearby Givat Herzl, ..." And Dec 8, "Givat Herzl, abutting Abu Kebir, was heavily attacked." Again, two distinct places. Zero^talk 02:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

here's another article from December 1948 referring to the two as distinct areas. Also has something interesting about Bosnian Muslims fighting in the war, but I don't think that belongs here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Bingo! Abu Kebir and Givat Herzl in 1947 Zero^talk 02:25, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

In this map the words "ABU KEBIR" are written at the place the original village stood, and "GIVAT HERZL" is written 400-500m to the north. Also note that "at the end of Herzl St" in the 1939 description is clear. Zero^talk 02:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Where are you getting these Palestine Posts from? I'm jealous. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

You too can play. If you can read Hebrew, Davar is there too. The OCR is terrible, especially for proper names, so sometimes it is necessary to search with multiple keywords before finding an article. Zero^talk 11:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that's an excellent resource. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

My summary of the historical development as far as I see it so far is like this:

1. Abu Kabir started in the 1830s as a small settlement outside Jaffa
2. During the 1930s as Jaffa expanded, Abu Kabir became a neighborhood of Jaffa and its surrounding area was known as the Abu Kabir quarter.
3. In the late 1930s, the northern part of the Abu Kabir quarter was developed as a Jewish district and became known as Giv'at Herzl. (PP has lots of advertisements for products made or sold in Givat Herzl; it seems to have been industrialised.)
4. During the late 1940s, Abu Kabir and Giv'at Herzl were regarded as distinct adjacent areas.
5. After 1948, Abu Kabir remained as a district name but the meaning of Giv'at Herzl expanded to include it.

Any corrections? Zero^talk 12:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Sounds about right to me. So now what do we do regarding both articles? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

1930 map

Here is how to view a very nice 1930 map. Go to UCLA Hypermedia. Select "Tel Aviv" from the pull-down menu at the top margin (or click on the appropriate red dot at the upper right). You will see a modern photo. Now click "1930" under the photo at the left. Abu Kabir's location and extent at that time are very clearly indicated. Zero^talk 03:19, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pulling this up and the information above. Excellent research Zero. Would you mind if I used some of it to develop Giv'at Herzl too? If people do decide to merge the article it will be incorporated here, and if not, it will be there. Tiamut^talk 08:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

You are very welcome to use any information I post on talk pages. Zero^talk 08:34, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Zero. I'm a little busy during the day today, but I hope to put them all to good use tonight. Tiamut^talk 13:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Another nice map from 1912. The Agricultural Colony of the Alliance Israelite is Mikveh Israel. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

And one from 1923. I notice on several of these maps that "Saknat el Danaita" is marked at about the same place that Giv'at Herzl began, so maybe Saknat el Danaita should be included (if we can find out anything!). Zero^talk 02:32, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Very nice. I love these old maps. I think "St. Tabitha's Tomb" in the 1923 map is probably Clermont-Ganneau's "Ardh (or Jebel) Dhabitha". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:46, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Clermont-Ganneau himself theorizes that Dhabitha is the Arabic form for Tabitha, and discusses the tomb as such. Tiamut^talk 13:27, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Great minds think alike. Or more likely I read it in Clermont-Ganneau a few days ago and forgot that's where I saw it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:36, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Neve Ofer (Tel Kabir)

I added this to the article, but it was removed by No More Mr Nice Guy citing WP:OR: Where the orange groves once grew, the Neve Ofer (Tel Kabir) neighborhood now stands. Wellsprings of memory, Ha'aretz, February 14, 2008.

I think its' rather clear that the article is referring to the orange groves outside Abu Kabir, but since it is not explicit, I'm willing to leave it out for now. Does anyone have any more explicit information on "Tel Kabir" or "Neve Ofer" and their relationship to Abu Kabir? Thanks. Tiamut^talk 15:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

There were orange groves all around Jaffa, and the al-Azi family had property in multiple places according to that article, so I don't see how the connection orange grove = Abu Kabir can be made.

Tel Kabir was renamed to Neve Ofer after Avraham Ofer's suicide. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:05, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a source about Tel Kabir or Neve Ofer? By the way, you misread the source. Its the home of Anton Ayoub that is in Neve Ofer (Tel Kabir): "The home of Anton Ayoub is known in Zionist historiography as the Biluim House and is designated an antiquities site because of its national and historic importance. This was the first building to house the first group of the Biluim - early Zionist settlers who arrived in Palestine from Russia beginning in 1882. They are considered the symbol of the First Aliyah (first wave of Jewish immigration to Palestine) and of the Zionist movement as a whole. The building is located in what is now South Tel Aviv, at the edge of the Neve Ofer neighborhood (Tel Kabir), adjacent to Wolfson Medical Center. Ayoub's orchard house, built largely from limestone, probably dates to the beginning of the 19th century and is one of the few in the Jaffa area that remain almost complete."

The Al Azi family is also mentioned in the article, and the property discussed is this one: "Al-Azi house is known to many as the Gadna (Youth Battalions) building, where the legendary Kabir target- shooting club operated for some 50 years. It stands west of the police detention facility of Abu Kabir, at the junction of Tel Giborim Street and Ben Zvi road. The large, impressive stone structure still belongs to the Al-Azi family, which leases it. A carpentry shop currently occupies the premises. Large sections of the pool were destroyed over the years."

In any case, we seem to still have a problem of determining where Abu Kabir (the historic site) begins and ends in today's Tel Aviv, as well as what the word Abu Kabir refers to in modern Tel Aviv. Tiamut^talk 19:35, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I read the article. The part about the orange grove comes right after the al-Azi stuff, so it seemed logical to me that those were the orange groves they were talking about. Your reading might be right too. We need more sources.

I don't have anything about Tel Kabir so far besides what's written in hewiki. Built in the late 60s, name changed in 1977, etc.

I can't find a list of neighborhoods on anything that looks like an official site or a serious book. I can provide a few lists from the internet in general if you like. Like I said, many Tel Aviv neighborhoods do not have clear boundaries so it's not surprising to me that we can't find a map clearly showing what's where.

From what I've been reading about the Biluim House, I'm not at all sure it was in Abu Kabir proper rather than the groves in the Abu Kabir area. There's a good comprehensive resource about it (again, in Hebrew. My apologies to the non-speakers) here. It has a lot of maps, and nice pictures. It doesn't mention Abu Kabir at all, only Neve Ofer. It also has some stuff the Biluim themselves wrote about the house, again not mentioning Abu Kabir. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if you noticed, but Mark LeVine says the Biluim set up a "commune" among the orange and lemon groves of the Abu Kabir neighborhood between 1882 and 1884. I added it to the article a while ago. That's why I found the reference to the home of Anton Ayoub (Biluim House) in the Ha'aretz article so interesting. It says that home was the first building to house the first group of the Biluim in 1882. Ayoub's house is also described as being "located in an orchard next to the Jaffa-Jerusalem road, about a 20-minute walk from Mikve Yisrael, an agricultural school and farm." In modern terms, the house is described as being at the edge of the Neve Ofer (Tel Kabir) neighborhood. This seems to be talking about the orchards of Abu Kabir mentioned by LeVine, as well as the orchards where the tombs were found. It also seems to be the orchards where Bremmer was killed. No? Tiamut^talk 20:42, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I saw the LeVine ref. Just reporting what my research so far has brought up. If I find a definitive source, I'll post it.

According to this Brenner and the rest were murdered about 150 meters from here (HaNoar HaOved Vehalomed Club, which is named after them and includes a memorial). So that would be on the eastern outskirts of Abu Kabir. Not to the south where the Biluim house is. There were orange groves all around this area at the time.

To make things more complicated, Zochrot, in the introduction to their map called "Tel Aviv and its Palestinian Villages" which you can see here, say "Abu Kabir, for example, was usually depicted in historical maps as a neighborhood of Jaffa and not as a distinct village; it spread along the road to Jerusalem without any clearly defined central built-up area, and was composed of many scattered buildings, which makes determining its exact boundaries difficult". See [9].

Unless we find a map that shows the boundires of Abu Kabir's agricultural lands, I don't think we'll be able to determine if a specific orchid or grove belonged to Abu Kabir or one of the other nearby settlements. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:34, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

A few issue

Here are the things I think still need addressing in the article. I won't be making any changes regarding these until hearing from other editors (or a long silence). Comments welcome.

• Abu Kabir/Givat Herzl issue. I think we have established that Abu Kabir is now a part of Givat Herzl. Merge?
• Related to above, the lead should start with the modern name according to WP:PLACE
• Neighborhood of Tel Aviv? Tiamut objects to using this term. I'm not sure why. Could you explain?
• There are a lot of incidents described in the Palestine Post resource Zero provided. Do we want to add specific incidents as editors see fit? Add a couple for each "side"? Make a section describing incidents?
• In the Ottoman period section, it says that in the Survey of Western Palestine the village is "described" as a settlement etc. This is incorrect. This volume is called "Arabic and English name lists collected during the survey". So it's not a description, it's a name. The English name is "settlement of Abu Kebir" (which solves our "what does Saknet mean" question in a previous discussion).
• Clermont-Ganneau says that he was taken "a few yards further on into the middle of some poorly tilled gardens". Only the last part of this sentence is in the article. I think we should add the first part too, to indicate it was very close to the village.
• Billuim House. I have yet to find another source for this. I think we might have to attribute it and maybe indicate that now the house is considered to be in Tel Kabir/Neve Ofer.
• In the 1947-1948 war section, we're quoting Mark LeVine about Ben Gurion's siege mentality. Not sure what this has to do with this article.

Thoughts? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

• • I'm still strongly against merger. Givat Herzl was founded before Abu Kabir was depopulated and adjacent to it. Modern maps I have been examining indicate that Givat Herzl is the name for an area adjacent to where Abu Kabir was (Abu Kabir itself does not show up on the modern maps for Israel. I determined its location using the SWP map from 1885, superimposed over the modern ones.)
  • A source that says that Abu Kabir is "a neighborhood of Tel Aviv" has not been found.
  • All incidents can be added and then edited down if too long.
  • Suggest using "translation" rahter than description for the SWP name.
  • If we add that I have no problem, but I would caution against making conclusions based on that account. If he was already in the fields of Abu Kabir ...
  • According to modern maps, Neve Ofer/Tel Kabir are not far from where Abu Kabir was. No problem with mentioning Bilium's house's modern location today. Sources support that designation.
  • I think the Mark LeVine material is interesting, but won't object to its removal if others think its overkill. Tiamut^talk 15:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

• • • Merge - lets wait and see what other people think.
    • Neighborhood - I did provide a few sources that call it a neighborhood, including a .gov.il site. I'm still not sure what exact connotation of the word neighborhood makes you object to its usage.
    • Incidents - works for me.
    • CG says he "reached a small hamlet" then "enquired of some fellahin" who "took us a few yards further on". Seems pretty straightforward to me.
    • "Translation" works. Feel free to change or let me know if you prefer that I did.
    • Biluim house - will change accordingly. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

• i'm negative on the merge, it seems the article is primarily about Abu Kabir and this won't change.
• let's not add incidents that are very minor. I'm dubious that any of the incidents I found in PP are notable enough. I only mentioned things that were relevant to the locations of AK and GH, omitting many more serious incidents. Zero^talk 22:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

1944 official map and 1950/1953 commercial maps

• 320px|South-east Jaffa in 1944
• 250px|South-east Jaffa in 1950
• 195px|South-east Jaffa in 1953

These are photos I took of three original maps.

• A 1944 map produced by the Survey of Palestine (the main government mapping authority). It shows Saknat Abu Kabir and Givat Herzl very clearly. It also shows that both localities were inside the municipal boundaries of Jaffa at that time. I think this map is good for the article.
• A 1950 tourist map. Yellow indicates built-up areas. Take your own copy of this quickly as the copyright nazis might delete it any minute (I'm claiming historical fair-use but they are fussy about that).
• A 1953 tourist map from the same company. The locality names are XXV=Giv'at Herzl, XXXII=Abu Kabir, XXVI=Sht. Shapira, XXIV=Sht. Florentin, XXIII=N've She'anan. Copyright status same as previous map.

Zero^talk 06:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Very interesting maps, as usual. You can see how Givat herzl grew. First west past Herzl street and then south.

May I ask where you get this stuff? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

A large library near me has a very impressive map collection. Just now I realised that they also have a 1964/5 map by the same company. Next time I'm in the neighborhood I'll check it out. Zero^talk 12:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I've been notified that the PP map above and the 1950 and 1953 maps will be deleted soon, so take your own copies. Zero^talk 02:21, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

depopulated village

I removed the infobox and category for depopulated villages. In 1948 Abu Kabir was part of Jaffa for at least a couple of decades. A quick look at other places in depopulated villages list didn't show any other neighborhoods. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:57, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, I disagree with that decision. But I'll let others comment before doing anything drastic myself. Tiamut^talk 16:32, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

PS. I restored the template for the depopulated Arab towns and villages. Even if one accepts the argument that Abu Kabir was a neighborhood of Jaffa and not a village at the time of its depopulation, the template remains relevant.

PPS. The infobox was good to have as it provided a map and location for Abu Kabir. The article looks less far interesting now. Tiamut^talk 16:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

(ec)This is relevant to the template as well as the infobox. I'm removing it per BRD. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Well actually, per WP:BRD, after you removed it the first time and I restored it, you should discuss, rather than again removng it. Your initial edit was objected to, and I opened a discussion explaining my edit. To avoid an edit war, you should not restore it again as though nothing happened. Tiamut^talk 18:11, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Whether Abu Kabir was a village or neighborhood, it was depopulated and should be included in the template addressing the depopulation of Palestnian Arab localities during 1948 war. That the template does not include "neighborhood" in its title does not automatically disqualify its inclusion (in my opinion). Indeed, at one point the title of the template was "Arab localities depopulated ...", rather than "towns and villages". This is why I think its inclusion in the template is appropriate.

For now, rather than prolonging what has now become an edit war by reverting your edits, I would appreciate it if you would elaborate on why a technicality or relatively easy to fix linguistic deficiency in the template title, should prevent us from including Abu Kabir into a list in which it seems to belong given that it was village/neighborhood (depending on which source is consulted) that was depopulated in the 1948 war. Tiamut^talk 18:11, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

No, per BRD your initial edit (adding the template and infobox) was reverted and now we discuss. You just reverted my revert.

My reasoning is that there are no other neighborhoods in that list of villages. Abu Kabir was incorporated into the municipal bounderies of Jaffa and was no longer a village by 1948. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I made the initial edit three weeks ago. Zero edited the article after that and did not seem to have a problem with the edit. Neither has anyone else been upset by it over the last three weeks. Your removal is the the bold edit that has just been made.

In any case, it would help if you would actually respond to the points I raised in my comment, rather than simply reiterating in a slightly longer form what was in your edit summary. When you choose to engage with the substance of my arguments, we can actually begin to have a real discussion and hopefully come to some sort of agreement. Tiamut^talk 16:09, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

One more thing ... there is more than one reliable source cited in this article that refers to Abu Kabir as a "village" at the time of its depopulation in 1948. Tiamut^talk 16:16, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't around for a couple of weeks. My first edit after yours was to revert your bold edit.

Are you arguing that Abu Kabir was not incorporated into the municipal boundaries of Jaffa? This is a fact that should be easy to determine, I think we even have a map with the city boundaries that clearly shows Abu Kabir as part of Jaffa.

Your argument is that the name of the list doesn't matter. I think it does, and the fact there are no other neighborhoods in that list proves the point. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:02, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

It's a question without a clear answer. In 1948 it was definitely inside the municipal boundaries of Jaffa, so it wasn't legally a village. But it wasn't connected to the main built-up area and was described as a village. Some localities near Jerusalem were in the same category. Zero^talk 11:21, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Change to intro

Regarding this edit, the problem is that Abu Kabir is a historical place name for a place that was depopulated. The new population was told the name of the place was Giv'at Herzl. Though the name change does not seem to have taken root, it was an official change and the name Abu Kabir refers primarily to the historical place, and not present day neighborhood, whose name seems to be undergoing yet another change (according to this http://estherhecht.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/a-neighborhood-by-any-other-name-a-sign-of-who’s-in-power/ blog], which while not an RS for the article, makes a brief mention of the issue. The previous version was fine, especially considering that Giv'at Herzl has its own article. NMMNG, I'd appreciate you self-revert until. can discuss your proposed in further detail. Perhaps a more thorough review of the sources will help to clarify how to proceed. Tiamut^talk 19:54, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what blog you're talking about. If you're referring to the source I added, it's not a blog, it's a mainstream newspaper. I also provided multiple sources for this in a section above. Abu Kabir is a neighborhood of Tel Aviv. This is amply sourced and your objection is pure IDONTLIKEIT. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:26, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) :Just to note, your latest edit pushes through a change we discussed several times above without reaching agreement. The only other editor who commented on the issue was Zero0000 who thought the merger of Giv'at Herzl and Abu Kabir should not be done and he agreed that the focus of the sources cited was the historical place, though mention of the usage of the name colloquially to refer to the Tel Aviv neighborhood that supplanted it could be mentioned in the lead.(addendum:Nableezy and Ynhockey also commented, with opposing merger and the other supporting). Please self-revert and explain how the source you added somehow tips the balance in favour of the change you made and wait for others to respond to see if consensus has now changed. Tiamut^talk 20:31, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

And the blog I'm talking about is the one I linked to. Press on the word blog above and you will see what I am talking about. Tiamut^talk 20:31, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

When I press on the word blog it takes me to a diff of my edit.

Giv'at Herzl is an article you started to make a POINT. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I've replaced the link, sorry about that. Tiamut^talk 22:26, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

i started the article on Giv'at Herzl because it was established beside Abu Kabir and eventually subsumed it, or at least was supposed to. See the new articles below that indicate that the new official name of what was Abu Kabir is to be Tabitha. Can't wait for the name change proposal. Tiamut^talk 22:34, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The modern village is covered at Giv'at Herzl. If you want to merge those articles, there is a process that I am sure you are aware of. Right now, you made it so one place is covered by two articles. That wont do, and I am reverting until there is a consensus for such a merge. nableezy - 20:39, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

You just removed sourced material from the article. I don't recall any policy making an exception regarding the removal of sourced material because there's a problem with another article, but perhaps you can enlighten me. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

What sourced material was removed? Tiamut^talk 21:16, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

That Abu Kabir is the name of a neighborhood in Tel Aviv. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:19, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I believe the article still says It was officially named Giv'at Herzl (Hebrew: גבעת הרצל‎‎, lit. Herzl's hill), but is still known as Abu Kabir (Hebrew: אבו כביר‎‎). (emphasis added) nableezy - 21:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

But based on the sources in the above section, shouldn't it say After 1948, the area was incorporated(?) into the Giv'at Herzl neighborhood of Tel Aviv? nableezy - 22:06, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I wrote a long reply that got wiped out. Let me just say that we don't have a secondary source that actually says that, though the primary sources indicate that's a mostly accurate description. Anyway this whole discussion is moot since in January 2011 the Tel Aviv naming committee changed th name of the present day neighborhood to Tabitha. See [10], [11]. Tiamut^talk 22:31, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Not moot, oh, its too late for me to write properly .... Anyway, I'll pick this up again tomorrow. sbah la kheir. Tiamut^talk 22:38, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The claim that "Abu Kabir" is still the primarily used name for the area is lacking in a source. Find one. The Giv'at Herzl article should be merged with this one, because it currently reads like "Oh no some Jews got killed but that's OK they stole the land LOL and we're not sure if it's part of Abu Kabir or not LOL" - Bringing such info here would bring it into better context and give those red-links something to think about too. --Τασουλα (talk) 00:35, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

The Givat Herzl article is an obvious POVFORK, which, if I knew then what I know know, I would have just reported Tiamut for POINTyly creating. I have provided plenty of sources showing that Abu Kabir is still in use, from google maps through newspaper articles to official Israeli government documents.

Apparently now they've changed part of the neighborhood name again, just to make things complicated. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 05:26, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Please stop making unfounded accusations. I started Giv'at Herzl because its not clear to me that its synonymous with Abu Kabir. It was founded adjacent to or even perhaps in Abu Kabir. after Abu Kabir was depopulated and destroyed and Ben Gurion vowed it would never be again, the area was renamed Giv'at Herzl officially, presumably becoming a part of it in officialdom. Yes, the name didn't fully take root and some people colloquially referred to much of the area as Abu Kabir, but the boundaries of whatever that was is unclear. [12] . the Abu Kabir part of the Giv'at Herzl neighborhood is set to be renamed to Tabitha.[13] This concerns this article only peripherally, though it should of course be mentioned, since this is primarily about the historical village/neighborhood of Jaffa and not about a present day neighborhood who sources can't seem to be clearly define or name. Tiamut^talk 17:08, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Your recollection is a bit faulty. You created the Givat Herzl article, without any discussion, while we were discussing the Abu Kabir/Givat Herzl issue on this very page. It was a POINTy POVFORK.

Anyhow, we have two sources that say that only part of Abu Kabir is being renamed (one of them the Haaretz article you posted yesterday, which doesn't include the words "Givat Herzl" like you're implying above) and only Segev implying (but not actually saying) it's the whole area. Could you be so kind as to correct your edit accordingly? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:37, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

How would I correct it? What's wrong exactly? I'm not trying to be dense here but I'm honestly not seeing how my phrasing in the article is objectionable given the sources cited. Tiamut^talk 17:47, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

And your recollection is faulty ... I created Giv'at Herzl before we discussed anything here. I was bold and moved what I saw as unrelated info you were repeatedly attempting to add here without discussion (with help from Nocal sockpuppet Milmoss) to another page to preserve your contributions. That article creation was what finally brought you to the talk page. Tiamut^talk 18:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

2 of the 3 sources say that part of the area, around the church, is being renamed. Not the whole neighborhood. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:59, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Well my phrasing is reflective of the vagueness of the sources. The second Haaretz source I didn't even cite here because its not clear what they are referring to since they don't use the name Abu Kabir as an area or neighborhood name at all. I used hill and neighborhood because that's what the the other two sources cited use. Can you propose an exact replacement wording? Tiamut^talk 18:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

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