Talk:Adad

Untitled

Any way this article can be set out better? It's hurting my eyes. T@nn 04:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge from Hadad

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Per WP:REDUNDANTFORK. Hadad is simply the NW Semitic form of this exact god with this exact name. Hadad (as Hadad) is precisely the same deity.

Side point Texts discovered at Ugarit have led most scholars to reconsider the Canaanite god Baʿal ("Lord") as an alias for Hadad the same way "Adonai" ("My Lord") is used for Yahweh but (A) that's not a sure thing, (B) Baal is far and away that god's WP:COMMON WP:ENGLISH name, and (C), even assuming the identity of Baʿal and Hadad at an early stage, they were distinct gods by the 1st millennium BCE when Hadad was particularly worshipped by the Aramaeans and the Phoenicians and Canaanites worshipped Baʿal as Baʿal.

Therefore,

• Hadad in Canaanite religion as an imported god goes here at Adad,
• Baʿal as a cryptonym or association of Hadad goes at Baal with a gloss and link from here, and
• Hadad in Aramaean religion as a continuation of the imported god goes here at Adad in its own section.

For the editors who only pay attention to how well-developed an article is in discussions like this, kindly note that Hadad only seems more developed than Adad because it has sections (which would be created here to deal with #Assyrian religion, #Canaanite religion, #Aramaean religion) and because it includes a lengthy and unnecessary retelling of the content at Baal Cycle that should be dealt with here or at Baal in any case. — LlywelynII 00:56, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Oppose : Hadad isnt the NW form of Adad, its the other way around. Adad should be merged to Hadad and not the opposite.

In Sumerian texts, Hadad (Adad for them) is always indicated as a foreign western god and his characters indicate him as the Amorite god or at least western Semitic in origin.

• Alberto Ravinell Whitney Green : The Storm-god in the Ancient Near East, Eisenbrauns 2003 (quote : His characteristics have always identified him as a non-Sumerian, West Semitic or Amorite deity)
• Joseph Eddy Fontenrose : Python, A Study of Delphic Myth and Its Origins, University of California Press 1959 (quote : Adad, lord of thunder and lightning. He is the same as the Hadad of the western Semites and may have come from the west to Babylonia)
• Theophilus Pinches The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (quote : In all probability Addu, Adad, and Dadu are derived from the West Semitic Hadad)

Another point, Adad is not the exact same god as Hadad as it had a different role in Mesopotamia. In Syria, Hadad was a fertility god and a destroyer while in southern Mesopotamia he was only the destroyer. 2.

So in short, I support the merging of Adad to Hadad.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 01:10, 16 August 2015 (UTC) [Bolding added by Lly]

Well, that is the same god, albeit with an expanded portfolio reflecting the Levant's dependence on rain for its agriculture. The extent of the difference is easily enough addressed by separate section headings and a gloss.

I'm not expert enough to weigh your sources but the one's I've seen (and the treatment at Hadad) go the other way, suggesting Baʿal may have been a native Canaanite deity but Hadad was imported from the east, where he's attested earlier. Hopefully we can get an agreement that the current fork is unhelpful and there should be a merge and then get some experts to come in and clear up which way it should go. (Really, if there's agreement on the merge, what should control is the ENGLISH COMMON name of the guy, but it seems to be six-of-one, half-dozen-th'-other at Ngram and Google Scholar. Removing the uses of Haddad as a surname, Adad comes out a little bit better but it's close enough that we should just weigh which location is better suited. Cursory scans of the results show Adad being used by itself and mentions of Hadad sometimes glossing him as a form of Adad, but that might have been overturned recently or sth.) — LlywelynII 05:42, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

1- I didnt literally mean to say its not the same god (my mistake) but that it had a somewhat different roles between Mesopotamia and the Levant. Hadad was already mentioned in the Archives of Ebla 2500 BC (in his most ancient name Hadda) so he is a western god imported to the east (from the Levant to Mesopotamia) Sarah Iles Johnston : Religions of the Ancient World Harvard University Press 2004

It is a consensus among Assyriologists that Hadad was a NW deity imported to Mesopotamia Albert Tobias Clay The Origin of Biblical Traditions: Hebrew Legends in Babylonia and Israel

2- Well, my sources are written by distinguished Assyriologists such as Theophilus Pinches and Albert Tobias Clay. Can you please present the sources that says that Adad was imported to the west becoming Hadad and not the other way around ? Then an expert will weigh them. As for the treatment at Hadad, its obviously not the best quality article on Wikipedia and need an intervention (Adad is not a good article as well).

3- As I understood, You believe Adad is the original because Hadad might have been imported from the east and equated with Ba'l.. But inner Syria is also to the East of Canaan (and NW Semitic, Amorite to be precise), so Hadad doesn't have to be an eastern Semitic deity even if he was indeed imported from the east of Canaan which is inner Syria (still a NW Semitic place)

4- You seems to have the opinion that Ba'l is a god and not just an honorific name. However, it is the Scholarly consensus that this isnt the case albeit other opinions will always exist.. There is a possibility that Hadad, the NW Amorite deity, was imported to Canaan but not as a replacement to Ba'l. Facoltà di teologia Pontificia università della Santa Croce (Vaticano : Diss Ertationes, Volume 1 We cant treat Ba'l as a deity when it is academically accepted that it is a Name

5- I do agree that there is a fork and that there should be a merge, just that it have to be Adad who gets merged to Hadad. Adad is the fork.

6- Haddad isn't really used much.. Its either Hadad (the original) or Adad (the imported NW deity to Mesopotamia) and from the graph you offered, it seems that Hadad is the common name for the last 50 years Ngram and that for most of the time, Hadad was always more common. As for the results you offered on Scholars and Google, Adad and Hadad are not used interchangeably so Scholars are clearly drawing a line.. Just because Adad of Mesopotamia have more material written about him doesn't mean that it is the common name because that name isn't being used to designate the original NW Hadad. Also, when you remove Haddad (very uncommon) from Hadad search, the NW name will get more results than Adad Hadad GodAdad God

7- So since Hadad is the original and since Hadad is at least as common as Adad, then the move should be merging the fork Adad to the original Hadad. Even at Wikipedia, Hadad gets more views [1] than Adad [2] (almost double) Its Hadad in Canaan, Aram, Amurru, Phoenicia and only Adad in Mesopotamia !! and he is not a Mesopotamian god in origin !--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 10:16, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Agree that the move should be merging the fork Adad to the original Hadad'. It is widely accepted in academic sources that Baal was the name of an Israelite/Cannanite/Phonecian God, with local Baals for cities and areas. E.g Hermann DDD pg 136 which states that there was an Israelite cult of Baal. Also Also Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary By J. D. Douglas, Merrill C. Tenney the word Baal in the OT (sic) most often refers to a Semitic deity. The Baal article has this led back in 2012. Baʿal (Biblical Hebrew בעל, pronounced [ˈbaʕal], usually spelled Baal in English) is a Northwest Semitic title and honorific meaning "master" or "lord"[1] that is used for various gods who were patrons of cities in the Levant and Asia Minor, cognate to Akkadian Bēlu. A Baalist or Baalite means a worshipper of Baal. "Baʿal" can refer to any god and even to human officials; in some texts it is used as a substitute for Hadad, a god of the rain, thunder, fertility and agriculture, and the lord of Heaven. Since only priests were allowed to utter his divine name, Hadad, Ba‛al was commonly used. Nevertheless, few if any Biblical uses of "Baʿal" refer to Hadad, the lord over the assembly of gods on the holy mount of Heaven, but rather refer to any number of local spirit-deities worshipped as cult images, each called baʿal and regarded in the Hebrew Bible in that context as a "false god" Mercer's Dictionary of the Bible pg 79, also has it that Baal and Hadad are usually regarded as separate deities. Pettinato 1980 argues for Baal as an original Cannanite God distinct from Hadad. and Kapelrud 1952 50:52 that the name Hadad was secondarily applied to Baal. Pope states that despite the biblical tendency to avoid the use of the word as a proper name, it is quite clear that by pre-Israelite times the term had become the usual name of the weather-god of Syria-Palestine. In the El- Amarna letters the logogram for the weather-god is conventionally read Addu, but that it is sometimes to be read Baʿlu is indicated by the addition of the phonetic complement-lu, as well as by the names like Mut dIm written syllabically ....... In the El-Amarna letters Canaanite clients addressed the Egyptian king as “My Baal, my Addu.” In the Ugaritic mythological texts Baʿlu (bʿl) is the name of the god which is used more than twice as often as his next most frequent name, Haddu (hd). Prior to the discovery of the Ugaritic texts it was sometimes thought that there were various and quite-separate gods called Baal. However, since the discovery of the Ugaritic texts it is generally accepted clear that there was one great Canaanite storm-and-fertility deity Baal-Hadad, and local manifestations of this one god. Day, J. (1992). Baal (Deity). In D. N. Freedman (Ed.), The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary (Vol. 1, p. 547). New York: Doubleday. See also Encyclopaedia Judiaca despite the biblical tendency to avoid the use of the word as a proper name, it is now quite clear that by pre-Israelite times the term had become the usual name of the weather-god of Syria-Palestine. vol 3 pg 10.

All found at the talk page for Baal. However the main point for keeping the page Baal for all uses of the word, as a God/Gods, and 'Lord' or 'master' is that anyone searching for the God Baal, (add in local title here) will be searching for Baal. Dictionaries use the title Baal for everything on that page, so should we, rather than having a particular page for an academic understanding of the original use of the term Baal. No one would restrict a whole article on Baal's great rival Yahweh to describe its meaning as 'Lord'. wp:common wp:english name is the most important argument for me.Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) 18:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

In order for me to understand this (conflict ?) I need to read long arguments in Baal page and I dont have the time or the interest to participate for now.

Just an info , Baal in Ugarit is Hadad but the weird thing is : the Ugarites people started to use Hadad as a holy name and Baal as a personal name Spencer L. Allen: The Splintered Divine: A Study of Istar, Baal, and Yahweh Divine Names and Divine Multiplicity in the Ancient Near East. This book deal with what I understood to be the conflict : Is Baal a name or a title (starting in page 215 but the Ugarit information is in page 216)

So as I understood, Johnmcintyre1959 support merging Adad to Hadad.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 19:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Support merging Adad to Hadad and using the page Baal to cover the meaning for the Israelite and Canaanite God/Gods Baal.Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) 21:17, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.