Talk:Adyghe language

Adyghe language template

If you are a native speaker of Adyghe then you can help translate this template into your own language:

adyМы нэбгырэм адыгабзэр инэдэлъфыбз.

Edit

--Amazonien (talk) 02:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC) .

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I did the above OPTION for the template but still searching for good translation of NATIVE. The back translation of the option is: this person speaks NATIVE adigha language.كهيعص (talk) 10:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe something like "as his/her mother tongue" or maybe "This user's mother tongue is Adyghe." altogether? Whatever might be easier to find in Adyghe. — N-true (talk) 19:36, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

IPA Chart

I've added the IPA chart for this language. However, the website I got it off included /pʷʼ/ which I doubt exists even though the website... sited the American Library Association. I've given the phoneme the benefit of the doubt and included it anyway. I would like references to other languages that have that phoneme along with any other labialised bilabial/labiodental consonants. Changes to the IPA chart are welcome. (Especially to /pʷʼ/ !!!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Burned Toast (talk • contribs) 11:44, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

For a language with labialized (rounded) bilabials, see Arrernte language. As an indigenous Australian language it does not have ejective consonants, though. --JorisvS (talk) 14:19, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Strange... I thought that labialised labial consonants couldn't exist... I think I'll look into those sounds further. Thank you anyway. --Burned Toast (talk) 09:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Ejective consonants

I think that the Ejective consonants in the Phonology chart and Orthography chart have to be change to velarized ejective consonants. the Adyghe people and the Kabardian people pronounce the Ejective consonants as velarized ejective consonants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamsa123 (talk • contribs) 17:41, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it is necessary in the phonology table, since it includes the phonemes of the language. Just like the existence of the voiceless bidental fricative as an allophone of /x/ is noted in the prose above the table, the velarization of the ejectives is noted there. I think this is sufficient. On the other hand, the orthography section uses phonetic brackets, so I do think it would be good to change them there. --JorisvS (talk) 18:54, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Close front unrounded vowel

I think there is also the vowel Close front unrounded vowel [i] in the Adyghe language. It should be exist in every word that describe someone having something, for example сикӀалэ - my boy/son [sit͡ʃaːla]. Originally it's [səjt͡ʃaːla]. с- [s-] (I) + икӀалэ [jət͡ʃaːla] (his boy/son). Because [əj] and [i] sound very similar (if not the same) many Circassians pronounce it as a Close front unrounded vowel. Doesn't this make it 4 vowels?.--Adamsa123 (talk) 20:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Read about phonemes and allophones. --Fncd (talk) 16:45, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I am just saying because it's the same case with the vowel [e] and that vowel is mentioned in the chart. In the Circassian language there's a [aj] vowel (like ay in day), and because both [aj] and [e] sound very similar some Circassians might pronounce it as [e] and not [aj]. For example some Circassians might pronounce the word делэ "fool" as [dela] and originally it's [dajla].--Adamsa123 (talk) 21:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

No, it's not the same because the article clearly states that /e/ is a phoneme. If you have a source which backs up that /i/ is also a phoneme, change the article. If not, re-read phoneme and allophone. --Fncd (talk) 10:17, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

How about this?. Here is the full list of the Circassian phonemes--Adamsa123 (talk) 11:19, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

That's a private website that missuses the term "phonemes" to describe letters. It just talks about the letters and their approximate pronunciation. I think, Fncd meant linguistic sources, like peer-reviewed articles or books that clearly show a phonemic distinction between [ej] and [i]. — N-true (talk) 14:11, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Well that will be very difficult. Not many people speak this language and it has many different dialects. A source that claims something may be different in the other dialects. a good example for that will be this website. It clearly state that the letter Г г should be pronounced as a Voiced velar stop [ɡ], and it may be true about that specific dialect, but in all other dialects it's a Voiced velar fricative [ɣ]. It's just weird for me that the vowel /e/ is mentioned in the article and that vowel only exist in some dialects unlike the vowel /i/ that exist in all Circassian dialects.--Adamsa123 (talk) 16:06, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I believe you're mixing up the terms "phoneme" and "phone" here. Much work has been done on the phonologic systems of the Northwest Caucasian languages, including Adyghe and its dialects. Omniglot is not a scientific source, and it also doesn't list any phonemes of the language at all. Adyghe has all kinds of vowel phones (phonetic vowels), represented as [i] for instance, but I do not know of any (scientific!) source that clearly shows that there is a phonemic distinction between a vowel phoneme /i/ (which would be a "new" phoneme) and, say, /əj/ or /jə/, which are two (old) phonemes of the language, namely the glide /j/ and the central vowel /ə/. Are there minimal pairs with these two vowels/diphthongs, like for instance, are there words like [bzi] contrasting with words like [bzəj], both being distinct words (these are made-up examples)? Are there articles in the linguistic literature that account for such minimal pairs? — N-true (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

What is the reason for analyzing [i] as /əj/ instead if /i/?--90.179.235.249 (talk) 20:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Consonants

What is the source of the table of consonants? --JorisvS (talk) 09:42, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Or what's the source for the entire article? — Lfdder (talk) 10:26, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Consonants table

What do you really want to achieve by editing the table of consonants in that way, יהודה שמחה ולדמן? If you'd talk about it, maybe we can actually start improving the article. --JorisvS (talk) 11:00, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

All I ask to do is make the table "much more compact". In Abkhaz someone used colors for distinguishing between phonemes of the standard language and those which appear in dialects. I realized then that you could use colors even for shortning numbers of chars - for example: [g, gʷ]=gʷ. This case means [g] has even a Labialized phoneme. Hope you understood. יהודה שמחה ולדמן (talk) 13:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Colour use does not meet accessibility guidelines, shorthand is confusing. — Lfdder (talk) 13:53, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility#Color contains the accessibility guidelines to which you're referring. Crucial information should not be conveyed just with colors, because then it is not accessible to certain readers. I suppose then it would be acceptable to use colors if the information were also conveyed with footnotes on each colored phoneme, though it would be redundant. — Eru·tuon 19:10, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Leaving out consonants by color-coding one of a set and then note that in certain dialects this consists of multiple phonemes makes the situation unclear. The point is not to have a simple table of consonants, because Adyghe has a lot of sounds: Although one must make things as simple as possible, one must not make it any simpler. So, if you have an idea that actually makes it simpler without compromising clarity, then we're all ears. --JorisvS (talk) 09:44, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Adyghe Language is a MISNOMER

"Adyghe language" is a misnomer. Adyghe is the self-name of several different peoples: the Adygeans, the Karbardians and the Cherkesses (Circassians). These peoples have two distinct literary languages: Karbardian (Кабардино-черкесский) and Adygean (Адыгейский). Both languages are called Adyghebze (Адыгэбзэ), but in fact this term comprises 2 different literary languages. They are phonetically, morpholigically and lexically distinct. To assign this name to only the Adygean literary language is both racist and reprehensible. It is like saying "Romance Language" and describing French. I think the Italians and the Spanish would be justly offended. I would suggest that this article be renamed correctly "Adygean Language" and a separate article be created for the "Kabardian Language". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.237.45.2 (talk) 19:15, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello friend,

It's been...almost a decade, but this still looks like an issue. While larger-scale changes can't be made at the moment, as this is only being addressed through copy-editing, it would be possible to replace all instances of "Adyghe" with a more appropriate name. If you're still able and willing, could you clarify what would be more appropriate for this article? (for instance, it would be best changed to "Adygean language" rather than left as "Adyghe language"?) Additionally, just for the sake of credibility, could you provide me with a reputable source to back this up? Thanks :)

~ Kurisupi.dbf (talk) 05:53, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

this is nonsensical. Adyghe (12+ tribes including kabardians and ubykh) always called themselves ADYGHE. This "кабардино-черкесский" and "адыгейский" nonsense was created by Russia to separate one nation. So stop lying. There is no ethnic group called "kabardino-circassian" or "adygheans". Circassians call themselves adyghe, nothing more and nothing less. And their language is one, cuz there are no dialects inside our dialects. Elarxux (talk) 23:49, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I recommend adding kabardian language to the list. It would be the best option. There is no need to separate one language and one nation into different things. Elarxux (talk) 23:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Add as a dialect of course Elarxux (talk) 23:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

also, if u consider kabardian dialect to be a different language then u should consider abdzakh dialect to be different from shapsug and call that a language too. The hell is this? You're the one who's racist here. Trying to diss unite the circassians, even tho the kabardians as well as other tribes consider themselves as ONE. Also, in Adyghe-Abkhaz language group, for something to be considered a language it has to be distinct from circassian like ubykh for example. So u won't understand a thing without studying, but adyghe living in kabarda can easily understand adyghe living in Shapsug region, if he listen to him closely. And I have to say that kabardian is not that different from other dialects to be considered a language. Also, calling kabardian dialect a "kabardino-circassian" is so silly. It's like saying that russian is slavic-finno-ugro language, or that french is "Indo-European-franc" language. Also, who are the adygheans? I don't know such nation. I only know Adyghe people and Адыгэбзэ (literally — Adyghe language). Such silly things as kabardian ethnicity and adygheans don't exist and never existed. Kabardian is a geographic name, not ethnic one, it's like saying Shapsugian, or Abadzekhian. Same thing. It says nothing about the language or ethnicity. That's an Empire's policy for u: divide and conquer. Nothing more. Elarxux (talk) 00:56, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 13 April 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: procedural close Previous undiscussed move reverted per request. No prejudice against someone opening a new RM immediately to determine if consensus exists for the undone move. (non-admin closure). TonyBallioni (talk) 03:34, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

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Lowland Adyghe → Adyghe language – Per Special:PermanentLink/775218393#Refutations_of_recent_claims. I can not undo the move due to the double revisions left behind. I have explained myself extensively, and showed that this naming is incorrect. Vito Genovese 13:25, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Discrepancies

"Adyghe has only three phonemic vowels in a vertical vowel system: ə, ɜ, a"

Several lines below:

"The vowels are written ⟨ы⟩ [ə], ⟨э⟩ [a] and ⟨а⟩ [aː]"

So, what are the vowels?

Also, the consonant marked as [ɣ] in the table is totally [g] in the audio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.146.64.60 (talk) 21:32, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Close mid back rounded vowel?

I swear I hear him using what sounds like an [o] sound in the video example in the article. I also definitely heard an /u/. ForestAngel (talk) 05:07, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Some changes to Orthography section

Hey folks, I made somewhat ample changes to the bulleted under the "Orhography Rules" header within the Orthography section. Each bullet originally came with multiple spelling examples all parsed into one sentence, which was super cool, but also made it a bit hard to read. I left the first example from each sentence visible, but made the rest of the examples invisible to the readers for the sake of ease. Note that the original text was not deleted–it is still accessible within the source text within style brackets (< ! - - ... - - >). Let me know if you have any concerns. :>

Otherwise, I just made a number of copyedits throughout the rest of the article, and might make a few more over the course of the month. Thanks :) ~ Kurisupi.dbf (talk) 06:05, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

July 5, 2023 edit vandalism

I'm here to report it because I cannot undo it myself at the moment and I will forget. 2409:10:A540:F00:62C5:C1A1:3E16:CDA7 (talk) 14:19, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

What system does the Orthography section use?

Currently, the orthography section begins with a long paragraph about the project of the Circassian Language Association. Further in the text, there occur the abbreviations CLA and ABX (the latter with a Latin ‘X’). The first apparently, although never introduced, means the Circassian Language Association, and the second seems to mean the same, apparently cobbled together from Cyrillic, which presumably would be abbreviated ‘АБХ’.

But the only reference, https://transliteration.eki.ee/pdf/Adyghe_3.0.pdf, mentions none of these. The system used in the table appears to be the same as that listed by eki.ee under TITUS. If that is what is meant, do we have a source for that? ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 20:20, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

What transcription does the English Wikipedia use?

This Wikipedia uses transcriptions like “Kizbech Tughuzhuqo”, which don't seem to be described here in this article. Is there a description anywhere of the system used? ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 21:01, 6 October 2024 (UTC)