Talk:African Americans/Archive 18

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EDIT REQUEST #2: African Americans' African Ancestry Ranges from 1 to 99 percent

You should also add:

African Americans, while still a socio-historically identifiable racial group vary widely in their relative percentages of African ancestry. One representative study of 365 self-identified African Americans found individuals with less than 1 percent West African ancestry to those with as much as 99 percent. Likewise, genetic studies have found little variation among African Americans in the source of their African ancestry due to intermarriage among African Americans from diverse African countries over time, but instead variation in terms of the percentage of European ancestry. This has great implications for the attempt to provide medical diagnoses for African Americans and demonstrates such attempts may be misguided at best without an understanding of the diversity in European ancestry within the African American community.

Here is also a good data http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091221212823.htm

"The rich mosaic of African-American ancestry. Among the 365 African-Americans in the study, individuals had as little as 1 percent West African ancestry and as much as 99 percent. There are significant implications for pharmacogenomic studies and assessment of disease risk. It appears that the range of genetic ancestry captured under the term African-American is extremely diverse, suggesting that caution should be used in prescribing treatment based on differential guidelines for African-Americans. A median proportion of European ancestry in African-Americans of 18.5 percent, with large variation among individuals. The predominately African origin of X chromosomes of African-Americans. This is consistent with the pattern of gene flow where mothers were mostly of African ancestry while fathers were either of African or European ancestry."

Keysbusyggh (talk) 20:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

No African-American scientist?

There's no African-American scientist in here which I think is a significant omission. How about including Percy Julian in the gallery of pictures on the top right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashujo (talk • contribs) 11:51, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

To discuss changes to the infobox, please visit Template talk:African American ethnicity. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:51, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Labeling African-Americans as an Ethnic Group

I looked over the wiki article, and it does not really define blacks in the US as an ethnic group as well as a race. I believe there should be more of that. As I am not a registered wiki editor, can someone else edit that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CEF9:D20:597E:B58:4190:3E01 (talk) 03:15, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 2 August 2012

Please make an addition that the term African American although used to associate the black people in the US is really incorrect. In order to be truly African American one must immigrate from Africa to the US. The black population that has been born on US soil are simply Americans. 50.142.46.85 (talk) 11:04, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. FloBo A boat that can float! 13:50, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Africa is a continent, not a country. B-Machine (talk) 17:04, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with FloBo that a source would be needed to support the requested change. Bus stop (talk) 17:18, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

President Obama in intro

Obama became the 44th President in *2009* or he was *elected* the 44th President in 2008. The wording should be changed to one way or the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.199.71.168 (talk) 16:13, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Changed.TMCk (talk) 16:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

"total or significant partial ancestry"

The article defines African Americans as Americans who have "total or significant partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa". Because of the One-drop rule, I don't think the word "significant" is appropriate. What do others think? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 23:48, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

How about you get rid of the word "partial"? It's ridiculous. B-Machine (talk) 17:06, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I would leave all the qualifiers out:

"African Americans or African-American people[3] (also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, and formerly as American Negroes) are citizens or residents of the United States who have ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa."

Cut out was: "total or significant partial".

The definition is imprecise. "Total or significant partial" do not make it more precise. Bus stop (talk) 17:15, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with Bus stop's suggestion, but there was a recent discussion that resulted in a consensus to include "partial". — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:25, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

The word "significant" is appropriate. An American who is, for example, 1/256th black African, is not going to count themselves as an "African American" because of a "rule" (which, as the article states, is colloquial). I think ultimately talk about ethnicities and classifications is always going to be difficult, and as such, one needs to remain broad. Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 23:42, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Brown People On This African American Article

Why are there brown people on this article? On http://www.dictionary.com/ it reads that African American means black people of African descent. Beyonce Knowles, Rosa Parks, Condoleezza Rice, Malcolm X, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Michelle Obama are not black, they are brown and especially Barack Obama who is biracial. Racial stereotype reads that all dark skinned people are black which is not true. AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 20:48, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

See the above edit request, and the sources in the article which show how the term African American is commonly used. a13ean (talk) 22:49, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Your source says that African American means an American who is black. All of the people you listed are generally seen as black, and so by that general sight, they are classed as African American. Literally speaking, you are correct - all of the people you mentioned are very highly mixed race. However, this page says ".. significant partial ancestry" for a reason. One does not need to be purely black to be African American. Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 23:53, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah but your general sight looks incorrect and every dictionary reads black. I do not want Wikipedia to look ignorant so the pictures will have to be removed and should be added to the article African People By what you are posting, you would add Alki David or white africans who live in the United States to this article. AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 14:56, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

No, you wouldn't. As per your example, Alki David is not African-American because he is not black. Now, if you want my PERSONAL opinion, then yes, I'd agree that the term "African American" is stupid, misleading, and should have been scrapped a long time ago (the rest of the world uses black, e.g. black British, which is the best way). But personal opinions have no place on WP, so we have to go with what we are given. Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 16:05, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I searched for brown americans and it redirected to the African American article. There are a lot of brown people in America who are not African descent which means that wikipedia is ignorant and incorrect. AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 11:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

"the color brown and the term "brown people" was used to describe a series of hypothesized racial groups that included various populations from North Africa, the Horn of Africa, the Near East, Middle East, South Asia and Southeast Asia" Seems that you are right, and it meets the criteria for redirect deletion because it is actively misleading, so delete it Leaf Green Warrior (talk) 12:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Probably best to send it to a disambig page with links to African Americans, Indian Americans, etc. a13ean (talk) 15:36, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

"The Obama Effect"

On May 9, 2012 the first African American president in US history said he supported same sex couples getting married. Since than polls in North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Ohio, Nevada and nationwide a vast increase in support of same sex marriage among African Americans. Yet there is no mention of Obama's historical endorsement of same sex marriage or the vast shift in public opinion among African Americans in favor of same sex marriage in Politics and social issues section.

In fact more African Americans support same sex marriage(59%) than white Americas.(50%)

US nationwide

• http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/after-president-obamas-announcement-opposition-to-gay-marriage-hits-record-low/2012/05/22/gIQAlAYRjU_story.html?hpid=z3

North Carolina

• http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2012/05/movement-among-black-north-carolinians-on-gay-marriage.html

Pennsylvania

• http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2012/05/pa-blacks-shift-quickly-in-favor-of-gay-marriage.html

Maryland

• http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/MarylandPollingMemo.pdf

Ohio

• http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/03/ohio-black-voters-same-sex-marriage-obama_n_1646189.html?utm_hp_ref=email_share

Nevada

• http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=12824&MediaType=1&Category=26

I'm requesting that this information be added Politics and social issues section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Female bodybuilder enthusiast (talk • contribs) 01:09, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Where to find...?

Just discovered negro is considered an offensive term - Black Americans don't live in my part of the world. If African-American is the new negro,where' the info on White African s be they American or otherwise? 114.33.29.137 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:51, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Removal Of Beyonce Knowles Picture

In an interview, she said that she was american indian. AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 20:00, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a ref or link? a13ean (talk) 20:32, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Crime

There should be a section on crime statistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RennerTeller01 (talk • contribs) 02:23, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Because I think it's relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RennerTeller01 (talk • contribs) 23:42, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

African American // African-American

A recent edit inserted that 'dash' in one place, and indicated that this term should (probably always, when used as an adjective) have the hyphen. True?? if so quite a bit of editing needs doing. (Dumarest (talk) 19:05, 14 October 2012 (UTC))

True. When used as a noun, no hyphen. But as footnote #3 indicates, "As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American." — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:33, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Has anyone taken on that editing task?? (Dumarest (talk) 11:29, 22 October 2012 (UTC)).

African American vs. Black American

Does anybody know what the consensus is regarding whether to use African American vs. Black American or Black? My (limited) understanding is that African American is the proper term. I'm looking specifically at the following recent diffs: [1], [2], [3] where "African" was changed to "Black". ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:34, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I guess I have two points in response. One, the article is currently titled African American. That being the case, I assume that the existing consensus is that the term "African American" is more appropriate than "Black American" for the title, and presumably for the text. I acknowledge that in general people of African descent in the United States refer to themselves colloquially as "black", somewhat as a "nickname," in terms of race or genetics "black" is at best an poorly defined term, whereas "African" is rather straightforward. Also, on a personal basis, as a resident of the major US metro area with the largest percentage population of people of African descent, I note that the other ethnic groups with comparatively dark or "black" skin, like some people of Asian or indigenous Australian descent, are just as, if not more, "black" than many of the people who can be described as "African American," and sometimes have the term mistakenly applied to them to mean people of African descent, when, in fact, they often have little if any African ancestry at all. That being the case, I would think that, for purposes of clarity, the more specific and directly relevant term "African" would probably be preferable. John Carter (talk) 22:43, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

This article is about Americans of african descent with a dark skin tone. However usually people from sub-saharan Africa typically have a dark skin tone. Pass a Method talk 17:34, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

That is correct. But shouldn't the article distinguish between black Americans of African descent and black Americans of, say, Polynesian or Australian descent? ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:04, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I have heard the term "Oceanic American", but i think theres a few more. Pass a Method talk 18:23, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

That's interesting, I'd never heard that one. But to get back the original question, do you think it would be ok to use the more precise term "African American" instead of "black American" in this article? ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Coming here through John Carter's contributions (checked on his contributions after leaving a note on his talk page): I have to state that this article is about African Americans in general, no matter their skin color. That is why Barack Obama, who is considered a light-skinned African American, is even mentioned in this article. Further, as should be evident, plenty of African Americans who are not from Sub-Saharan Africa have a dark (as in significantly darker than Obama's) skin tone. And I agree with consistently using "African American" in this article, as that is the title of this article and the more proper term for this topic. However, "black" is fine to use when it's called for, such as when the sources use the term "black" and in sections such as the Terminology section. As for "black" being ambiguous because it can refer to those who are not of African descent or those who are of African descent but weren't born in America ... Well, we're all of African descent, according to most scientists, and the wording "black American" or "black people" aren't usually used to refer to those without significant African ancestry. While "black person" can mean someone with significant African ancestry who wasn't born in America, the lead makes clear that "black" in the context of this article is referring to African Americans. Flyer22 (talk) 19:23, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Unsourced subjective opinion about the term "African American", riffing off Flyer22's last point about Black vs. African people in America: Yes everybody has African ancestors, but not everybody or their grandmother came to America from Africa, which distinguishes 'African Americans' from 'European Americans'. Of course, people's actual family trees and the everyday drawing of the race line are much stranger. But if racial categories "mean" things, this is the meaning of "African American": you or some meaningful fraction of your ancestors were transported directly from Africa to America, rather than taking the road through Europe or Siberia. This meaning probably encompasses people whose ancestors were transported to the Americas and now live in the United States. Now... one could make the argument that skin color is the complete practical reality of race in America, and therefore the "meaning" of "African American" is a totally ancillary myth, on which we shouldn't bother to focus. If that's the case, maybe this article should live at "Black American." Although I certainly wouldn't recommend symmetry in all cases, I think it is relevant that both "European American" and "White American" exist as Wikipedia articles. Love, groupuscule (talk) 23:07, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Of course...most African Americans didn't come to America from Africa either. That's where "of African descent" comes in, with specifics to distinguish African Americans from European and/or White Americans. As for the title of this article, per some of my, Adjwilley's and John Carter's comments, I don't feel that the article should be moved to Black American. As noted, there is some ambiguity in using "black"...and "African American" is simply the more proper term for this topic. Obama, for example, is usually referred to as "the first African American president" instead of "the first Black American president." Deciding to move this article to Black American should have substantial discussion, including alerting editors of the three WikiProjects this talk page is currently tagged with. Flyer22 (talk) 23:41, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Gang violence

I think a section on crime/gang related violence should be included.RennerTeller01 (talk) 23:34, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Deletion of category African-American_descent

It has been proposed here that the category of people of African-American descent be deleted. Ephebi (talk) 00:00, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Are Ethiopians and Somalis African American?

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Americans#Black and African Americans. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:45, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Is the list of the states of the United States contains Puerto Rico?

I read this article and I have to notice that Puerto Rico is not a state in the United States.Rextacskó (talk) 12:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Part of U.S., but not a state -- like Guam. (Dumarest (talk) 01:56, 21 January 2013 (UTC))

Not Relevant - the list title is "State/Territory", which includes Puerto Rico, not "State". rewinn (talk) 05:37, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

African American Ancestry

I noticed that in every article concerning African American history, it always talks about the ancestry of "most" African Americans (i.e. West/Central Africa). It never mentions the other origins of their ancestry. This has and continues to cause confusion when discussing race and ethnicity as there are many documented references to the other origins of the American Black person. For example, why not include the Negro Law of South Carolina, section 4 which states "The term negro is confined to slave Africans, (the ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the negro Asiatics, such as the Lascars." The other origins of the American Negro are Berbers, Egyptians, Moors, and negro Asiatics. Also, the term Negro was only applied to the slave and not the free blacks. Also, please include some of the numerous references to the African-Native heritage. Thanks.LucayanArawakEgyptianMoroccan (talk) 19:23, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Devils Advocate

I was just browsing random articles and read this one. This sentence seemed odd.

"Since 1977, in an attempt to keep up with changing social opinion, the United States government has officially classified black people (revised to black or African American in 1997) as "having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.""

What is the status of Australian Aborigines or other non (recent) African black racial groups? Just curious. Mtpaley (talk) 23:01, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Racial categorization is officially handled by the Office of Management and Budget, categorization of ethnicities into race group information can be found at Race in the United States or Race and ethnicity in the United States Census.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:04, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Untitled

To be more correct with the facts it should read:

African Americans[3] (also referred to as Black Americans, Afro-Americans, formerly as known as American Negroes, and Coloreds) are citizens of the United States who have partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa[4] The term African American is used to identify Americans of African Ancestry.

African Americans make up the single largest racial minority in the United States.[5] A high majority of African Americans are of West and Central African descent,(to be removed:NOT blacks, black is Another American made created construct which doesn't attach it self to any cultural history beyond America), European and or White, and American Indian Descent. Annb AnnB96 (talk) 02:09, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Infobox

I was thinking, given the historical significance of racial interrogation of professional sports and Jackie Robinson's role in that integration, perhaps he should be represented in the infobox?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:06, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, I noticed, that other than COL Guion Bluford, no individuals who are notable for military contributions are included in the infobox. May I suggest SGT William Harvey Carney, as his action is the earliest which an African American was a recipient of the Medal of Honor, or MAJ Martin Delany the first African American field officer, or BG Benjamin O. Davis, Sr. the first African American general officer.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:16, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Please make any recommendations, including who you would replace, at Template talk:African American ethnicity. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:33, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Small edit request

I enjoyed reading this article. To anyone who has editing privilege, you may consider changing (in the last section) Condoleeza Rice was famously described to infamously described. Akafd76 12:51, 27 March 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akafd76 (talk • contribs)

Perhaps, in adhering closely to the source, we could say, "Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (who, in a minor gaffe was referred to as a "recent American immigrant" by French President Nicolas Sarkozy)…"

This would be instead of "Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (who was famously mistaken for a "recent American immigrant" by French President Nicolas Sarkozy)…" Bus stop (talk) 02:33, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Largest Minority in the US?

I believe that the 2010 census reveals people of Hispanic origin to now be the largest minority. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amittaizero (talk • contribs) 02:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Our article says "African Americans make up the single largest racial minority in the United States." (emphasis added) Hispanics are not considered a race in the United States, but an ethnicity. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Hispanic people are NOT a race. There are blacks, whites, East Asians, and indigenous Amerindians in and from so-called "Latin America." For example, look at Afro-Latin American. B-Machine (talk) 21:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Hyphen

My understanding of the relevant style convention is that "African-American" is correct when used as an adjective and "African American" (without the hyphen) is correct when used as a noun. Is this correct?

This article has a number of violations of this rule, in both directions. I wanted to make sure I understood the correct style before fixing, though. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 12:03, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

You're right. African American (no hyphen) as a noun, African-American (with a hyphen) as a compound adjective. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:21, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

African American Latter Day Saints

The following category is up for deletion, please contribute to the debate: Category:African-American Latter Day Saints--MacRùsgail (talk) 17:38, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

25 Photos

Surely the recent addition of 25 photos is excessive. Mtpaley (talk) 18:26, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments anyone? I still say that this is excessive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American 25 people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans 12 people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_american 12 people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas 1 person

Personally I dont think that any of these require a photo or maybe just 1 if the ethnic look is deemed to be relevant but the trend seems to be towards 12 so I think that a prune of half of the African Americans is in order. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtpaley (talk • contribs) 21:58, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I think 12 or 16 photos is more than enough. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:47, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I have no strong feelings on this, but 5 x 5 looks ok to me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:37, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

It is excessive, and with over representation it just looks silly. Berry, and how many other actors? Will Smith and Eddie Murphy. COme on now how does this image gallery end? Images are a big distraction, and more wiki rules need to be written about criteria of inclusion. --Inayity (talk) 08:01, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Ancestry from Sub-Saharan Africa

"who have total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa"

I am not going to edit the article with this because it is still regarded as controversial in some places but the generally accepted theory is that we all have total or partial ancestry from Sub-Saharan Africa. A mention in the Talk section is all this needs for now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtpaley (talk • contribs) 22:02, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, yes. That is the generally accepted theory (I think). But it may still not be interesting to mention in THIS particular article, not much that happened before 1526 is. How do you think Recent African origin of modern humans should be mentioned here? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Crime statistics

Do blacks commit more crimes? Apparently. Worth a mention? Yes. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Irrelevant HIV statement

I find the last statement of the "Politics and social issues" relating to HIV ("African Americans have a larger proportion of HIV than the rest of the population on average.") to be irrelevant to the section, but not necessarily to the article as a whole. I suggest removing it, or perhaps moving it to an appropriate section.Vonjenkton (talk) 06:22, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Done. B-Machine (talk) 16:45, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Category:African-American players of American football

Category:African-American players of American football has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Who coined the expression Afro-American?

Who and when?

It definitely wasn't used back in the 19th century. John.St (talk) 03:20, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Only citizens or residents of the United States?

„African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, are citizens or residents of the United States“

Black people of South America or Middle America are not „African Americans“  ? --Ohrnwuzler (talk) 11:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Not in English, no. Just as in English "American" is taken to mean "a resident of the United States", African-American is taken to mean "a resident of the United States with African ancestry" pbp 14:50, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

European ancestry? not specific enough

European is to general a term to use. African americans do not have any slavic genes so why include slavic people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.103.143.223 (talk) 15:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 November 2013

In this article, women are almost completely obsolete. I would like this information added to this entry

In antebellum America, African American women filled various roles within the plantation, making them key figures in this era. They worked as plantation workers, but they also served with the home in the role of a “mammy.” However, their roles within the home are often based on idealizations that are inaccurate. African American women are seen as one of the pillars of their plantation owner’s home, but in reality, these women faced much abuse by their owners and their owner’s wives. One African American woman named Rose was allowed to engage in domestic tasks within her master’s home which was considering a step above what many of the other slaves were required to do. However, this quickly changed when she conceived her master’s child (White 36). She was now considered an immoral woman and her master’s wife turned completely against her. African American women were given agency based on their status within their owner’s household. Their identities were contingent on how they were viewed in the eyes of the people who had power over them. White, Deborah G. Arn't I A Woman. 2nd ed. Vol. 1. New York: W W Norton & Company, 1999. Dapoco92 (talk) 02:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done for now: Please specify where you would like to add this text in the article. Just for clarity, since you are a new editor here, are all of the claims in your text supported by the one reference and is the text your own summary of the points from the reference? Please reopen the request after answering these questions. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 17:57, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2013

I feel the sexuality section on this page is a little lacking, so I found some extra facts

the source is: http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/lgbt-african-american-oct-2013/

Using data from the Williams Institute and the 2010 Census, researchers uncovered that nearly 84,000 LGBT African Americans live in same sex households. With 34% raising children mostly in the south. LBGT are less likely to be employed, less likely to have a college degree, and less likely to have health insurance compared to heterosexual couples.

Csdurant (talk) 21:07, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

This study has more to do with LGBT than it does with African-Americans. So the information is better suited for an article of that subject matter. This is not representative of African-Americans in general nor is it relevant to the topic of African-Americans. As a matter of fact, the study even shows that the comparisons you've listed are derived when comparing LGBT African-Americans to their non-LGBT counterparts. So it's a comparison between gay and straight African-Americans and not between African-Americans and other races. You've also misread the article. LGBT Afro-American couples are MORE likely to have a college degree and MORE likely to be employed. The only thing LGBT Afro-Americans are less likely to have is health insurance and that's probably because they can't get family insurance plans in many parts of the U.S. Regardless, due to the ACA, this information is also likely to change.

Like I said, this information is better suited for a LGBT article that discusses differences and comparisons made between gay and straight couples than it does on an article specifically about African-Americans. Though the current information in the "sexuality" section is short, it is a relevant claim regarding the entirety of African-Americans. More in depth information about a subgroup of African Americans, whether they be straight or LGBT, is too specific for this article. This isn't information about the sexuality of African-Americans, it's information about LGBT African-Americans.Scoobydunk (talk) 22:33, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Charlize Theron

By the definition in the first sentence she's African American. Change "native" to "indigenous"? Paul Magnussen (talk) 18:04, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

It's not necessary because you are reading the sentence structure incorrectly. Charlize Theron may be a native OF South Africa, but she is not an African Native. I can't see how the first sentence that reads:

African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, are citizens or residents of the United States who have total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa.

could possible include Charlize Theron. She is not Black, Afro-American or part of the native population of Sub-Saharan Africa. Am I Native American because I am a native of the United States of America? No. Dave Dial (talk) 18:56, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Native means "a person born in a specified place" (COD). Granted that many people use the term by slipshod extension as interchangeable with "indigene", but should not an encyclopædia be precise?

I notice also that the COD describes the meaning of " a non-white original inhabitant" as "dated, often offensive". Paul Magnussen (talk) 19:04, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

If you're born in a country you are a native of that country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.19.242.98 (talk) 14:23, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Louis Armstrong for photo table

Can I nominate Louis Armstrong for inclusion on the 4x3 box of notable African Americans? --174.94.45.109 (talk) 07:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Which picture would you like to replace with Armstrong's? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 10:25, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Categories for discussion

There are proposals to merge (and effectively delete) Category:African-American female rappers, Category:African-American female guitarists and Category:African-American female lawyers at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 February 12. If you have an opinion on these discussions, please voice your position. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:43, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Incorrectly used to refer to non-American blacks

"The U.S. Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Investigation categorizes black or African-American people as 'A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa' through racial categories used in the UCR Program adopted from the Statistical Policy Handbook (1978) and published by the Office of Federal Statistical Policy and Standards, U.S. Department of Commerce, derived from the 1977 OMB classification."

This may be what the FBI has used, but it is ridiculous to refer to a black tourist from Zimbabwe visiting the USA on vacation as an African-American. I've been in the room with Americans watching the Olympics, for instance, who use the term "African-American" for athletes who are not American at all. I wish there would be an inclusion in the article about the danger of jumping to conclusions and assuming that any black person an American sees is an African-American, when we really have no idea whether that person is a resident or citizen of the USA. Just because a person's origin is Africa doesn't make them an African-American, and we should have that bias pointed out to us as members of a global community, lest we offend people from other nations with our ignorance, as Joe Biden has recently done assuming a white lady in a restaurant was American, when actually she was a Canadian visitor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shrommer (talk • contribs) 04:14, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Picture

Maybe a black person with fair skin/Caucasian feature should appear in one of the pictures? Rashida Jones and Mariah Carey, for example, have black parents but have "white" features. I don't have strong feelings about this but it's something to consider, as it would illustrate the diversity of the African American community. Steeletrap (talk) 23:40, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

The collection of images that are presented as the lead image includes light-skinned black people in addition to dark-skinned and medium-toned black people (though a few of the pictures are in black and white); Barack Obama, for example, is considered light-skinned. But you want to include a black person who is lighter, what you feel is more accurately termed fair skinned and/or "looks more white" with regard to other features, correct? Flyer22 (talk) 23:47, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Wentworth Miller is another choice for black diversity. Flyer22 (talk) 23:53, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, Rashida Jones and Mariah Carey are similar to Wentworth Miller, in that they were conceived by "a mixed race relationship" and are all fair-skinned and have other "white features." Flyer22 (talk) 00:04, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

This is a sensitive issue. But there are a lot of mixed-race black people who look more Caucasian than black. For instance, I have Nubians in my extended family and one of the (mixed race) kids looks Italian or Mediterranean rather than black. Adding one such picture might challenge readers assumptions of what it means to be African American and reflect the diversity of the community. Again though, this is a sensitive subject and I understand if people would prefer not to have someone with 'white' features.

Another choice might be Soledad O'Brien, the host of CNN's "black in America" series. Steeletrap (talk) 00:12, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Soledad O'Brien has mentioned the "look more Caucasian than black" topic as well, and her Black in America series is known to enlighten those who are less enlightened on what it means to be black in America and sometimes in general. Flyer22 (talk) 00:39, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and I was definitely thinking of Soledad O'Brien a bit after I saw that you'd created this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 00:49, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Who would you remove to add one of your choices? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:49, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

The current group is pretty distinguished, so it's hard to justify removing one of them. But this is something to consider for the future. I personally think the photo box should be expanded (Mexican American has 20 pictures, as does Arab American) to include more people. Steeletrap (talk) 03:20, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

New change to the opening sentence.

HelenOnline just changed the final clause from the opening sentence of the article. It previously read, "are citizens or residents of the United States who have total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa." and now reads "are black citizens or residents of the United States who have total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa." The word "black" has been added because, as HelenOnline explains in the edit summary, "otherwise all americans would be african americans as all humans have african ancestry". If that claim is true, then the end of the clause - the "who have total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa" part - is actually meaningless, since she claims that this is true of all Americans. But if she is right, then the entire phrase can be eliminated without loss of meaning since it does not narrow the group definition at all. So if HelenOnline is right, the clause should read, "are black citizens or residents of the United States." But this would be to change the definition of the word from one defined in terms of ethnicity to one defined in terms of race. It does reflect how the words "black" and "African American" are used in the US, but it nevertheless is a substantial change to the article that should be discussed before becoming entrenched. 99.192.51.205 (talk) 14:17, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Please don't quote a partial edit summary, my full edit summary is "corrected opening definition per source cited ("A Black American of African ancestry"), otherwise all americans would be african americans as all humans have african ancestry". If the rest of my edit summary was not relevant, I would not have gone to the trouble of writing it. HelenOnline 14:33, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

The full edit summary seems to make it worse. The source does not say "sub-Saharan", it just says "African", so by "correcting" the source you have actually changed it further from what the source actually says. This is a violation of WP:OR. 99.192.51.205 (talk) 14:49, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Where did I change it to "sub-Saharan"? HelenOnline 14:55, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

You didn't. But you explained adding a racial term (that you have elsewhere claimed has no clear meaning at all) with the explanation that you are "correcting" a source. To my knowledge, editors do not get to overrule what the sources say because they believe that it is incorrect. That is WP:OR.

But my original objection still also stands. If you think that the word "black" is needed because otherwise the description would include all Americans, then you think that all Americans "have total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa". But if having "total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa" does describe all Americans, then it can be deleted from the definition without loss of meaning, since "American" is already there. So if you are right, the first clause should just read "are black citizens or residents of the United States." 99.192.51.205 (talk) 15:13, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Note: The word significant used to be used; see Talk:African American/Archive 16#"total or significant partial ancestry" and here; the diff-link shows that it was removed by Purplebackpack89.

Similar to Helen, I've also questioned how the first sentence defines African American, since, you know, scientists are generally in agreement that humans originated in Africa and every human is of African descent; see Talk:African American/Archive 16#African American vs. Black American. Seems that the term African American is not as easy to define as one would think. As for "sub-Saharan Africa," that's documented on this talk page to be something that keeps coming up in discussions here about defining African American. Flyer22 (talk) 15:21, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

99 That is a separate issue and other editors who are more familiar with this article can comment on that. Please stop making unsupported accusations about my editing. I did not say I was correcting a source, I said I was correcting content in accordance with the source cited, which I did. I did not notice the sub-Saharan discrepancy and did not touch it. If you personally have a problem with it, then remove it. The "black" race construct exists whether I like it or not, I am not even going to try respond to your comment about that as from our interaction at Talk:List_of_African-American_Academy_Award_winners_and_nominees#RfC:_Should_this_page_be_moved_to_List_of_black_Academy_Award_winners_and_nominees.3F it is clearly pointless. HelenOnline 15:25, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Black vs Sub-Saharan

African Americans are black people. But, contrary to popular belief, they are not necessarily from sub-Saharan Africa. Nubians, for example, are considered 'black' in the United States but do not descend from a region that is (entirely) south of the Sahara. Steeletrap (talk) 23:06, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Steeletrap, with regard to this edit you made and this talk page discussion you just created, see the section immediately above this one; the existence of that section is why I made this one a subsection of it. Flyer22 (talk) 23:14, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, with regard to Nubians, I don't think that the initial definition should be based on how the United States defines a black person. Flyer22 (talk) 23:19, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

"Black", with no mention of sub-Saharan, is the dictionary definition and the federal government's definition. It's also the definition that reflects the experience of Nubians in America, insofar as they are perceived to be black. Steeletrap (talk) 23:28, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Actually I think the initial definition should be based on how the US defines a black person (as well as what is in the sources). Race constructs have less meaning the wider the context is. For example, the black construct means something quite different in an African context to the US context and this article is about the US ethnic group. HelenOnline 06:39, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

At the time that I made the "initial definition" comment, I'd momentarily forgotten that this article, among other things, is about how "black person" is defined in the USA. Flyer22 (talk) 07:52, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

OK thanks. BTW it occurred to me that the "total or partial ancestry" part of the article definition could relate back to exactly that point, i.e. the US has a broader definition of black than some other countries, probably related to the one-drop rule. HelenOnline 08:27, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

The change to the lede was incorrect since the Africa-derived portion of African Americans' ancestry does not come from the whole continent. It is instead mainly derived from populations inhabiting West and Central Africa. The Nubians allusion is inapt, as Nubians are recent African immigrants, not African Americans. Middayexpress (talk) 20:22, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

The federal government's definition of African American is not sub-Saharan African. Instead, it "refers to a person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa." This would include Nubians and people from North Sudan who are perceived as "black" in the U.S., but whose ancestry is technically not sub-Saharan. However, it would not include white Afrikaaners (nor, for example, the vast majority of non-Nubian Egyptians).

These categories are not biologically sound. A "black" person from Ethiopia is far closer genetically to a Yemeni (or Saudi) than a Nigerian. However, that doesn't mean they don't have social meaning -- even though Kenyans were over the centuries reproductively isolated from West/Central Africans, Pres. Obama is certainly "black" and "African American" . Nor does it mean we shouldn't go off of the definitions of "black" furnished by reliable sources and common sense. Steeletrap (talk) 00:43, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

With respect, you are confusing a census category with an actual ethnic group. The former is based on self-reporting, while the latter on actual ancestry. The U.S. census entries (which, incidentally, have changed over the years and will likely continue to) are not directives. They are options entirely dependent on how the respondent chooses to answer, as the bureau itself states ("For the 2010 Census, the question on race was asked of individuals living in the United States[...] An individual's response to the race question was based upon self-identification" [4]). Nubians can thus identify however they want, including Egyptian. That still won't make them African-American, though. This is because African-Americans are an actual ethnic group of their own, with a distinct history, culture, language and genetic profile formed in the New World [5]. The African-Americans vs. West/Central Africans situation is similar to that of European Jews vs. Middle Eastern Jews. Jews have lived in Europe for years and intermarried with Europeans to the point of becoming a distinct community of their own (e.g. Ashkenazi Jews), with their own specific cultural traits and language (Yiddish) rather than simply remaining Middle Eastern transplants in Europe [6]. This is not the situation in South Africa, where instead a third population (Coloured) evolved in part out of the intermarriages between Afrikaners and Khoisan/Bantu. This article is reserved for actual African-Americans, not recent African immigrants, just as Native Americans is reserved for actual Native Americans, not recent Asian immigrants. Middayexpress (talk) 14:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Your definition makes sense at an anthropological level. But it's been repudiated by the "African American" community, which accepts East Africans of distinct 'racial' and cultural origin (see: President Obama) as members of their community. Steeletrap (talk) 01:36, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Barack Obama, Sr. was a Nilotic Luo from the African Great Lakes region, not the Horn. Makes no difference either way since the Africa-derived portion of African-Americans' ancestry is from West/Central Africa, just as the Asia-derived portion of Ashkenazi Jews' ancestry is from the Middle East (as opposed to, say, Northeast Asia -- another distinct part of the same continent). Middayexpress (talk) 12:22, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Who said his father was descended from the Horn? He was, however, not of West/Central African descent, meaning by your definition Obama is not an African American. Steeletrap (talk) 18:05, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

You alluded to East Africans in general and I corrected you on that by pointing out that Obama senior was actually from a Nilotic ethnic group in the African Great Lakes region, a completely different demographic area from the Horn to its north. This is similar to Ashkenazi Jews and Northeast Asians; both trace a significant portion of their ancestry to the same continent, but not to the same ethnolinguistic areas. At any rate, Obama is indeed not technically African American (see Public image of Barack Obama). Middayexpress (talk) 18:27, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

"Merging" (aka Deleting) categories

There is a discussion on merging Category:American women philosophers, Category:Asian American philosophers and Category:African-American philosophers into Category:American philosophers which would, in fact, lead to their deletion. If you would like to weigh in on the conversation (pro or con), go to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 April 17#Category:American (x) philosophers. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:06, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Text under the picture of Jesse Owens.

The text reads: "Jesse Owens shook racial stereotypes both with Nazis and segregationists in the USA at the 1936 Berlin Olympics."

There needs to be some clarification as to what these supposed stereotypes were and a citation as to who specifically held them. Joseph Goebbels noted in his diary that he considered it unfair that Africans even competed in athletics because he considered them to be physically superior at least in speed. He noted: "I think it's unfair, to have people like Jesse Owens competing, because you might as well have deer or gazelle on your team.". 87.211.24.51 (talk) 13:50, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

AAVE & genetics

There doesn't appear to be any material on African American Vernacular English and the unique genetic profile of African Americans. Language and genetics are common features of many ethnic group wiki-pages. Bryc et al. (2009) provides a good summary of the latter [7]. Middayexpress (talk) 15:39, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Is "African American" accurate?

I'm not intending for anyone to interpret this as a reliable secondary source; only that alternate opinions exist... Please see what Pearl Duncan has to say about it. Dr. Hoo (talk) 22:00, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Please can you be more specific with your comments. I don't want to guess what you are trying to say. HelenOnline 08:47, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Sure, just click on the hyperlink (the words "what Pearl Duncan has to say about it," above). It's not an original thought, but I certainly agree with her. Thanks for asking, and I'm sorry it wasn't more clear... Dr. Hoo (talk) 08:54, 22 May 2014 (UTC) Dr. Hoo (talk) 08:54, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I did read it but I still don't follow you sorry. HelenOnline 10:50, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I guess it's not accurate enough because it also applies to South America... N'est ce pas? Dr. Hoo (talk) 11:11, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

OK thanks, I think I got it now ("American" per se does not only apply to the US?). For Wikipedia purposes, it only matters what "African American" means to most people and that we can back that up with reliable sources. How the term came about is not all that relevant. HelenOnline 11:45, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Infobox Pictures

Malik Shabazz, do I really need to discuss why I should add Jackie Robinson, Michelle Obama, Colin Powell, Benjamin O. Davis, Sr., Michael Jackson, Denzel Washington, Tupac Shakur, and Morgan Freeman? Who would even object? Also, I've added to it, not subtracted or removed work. Please, show me what Wiki rule says I must consult the talk page first. Thanks. Savvyjack23 (talk) 03:43, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

There is a long-standing consensus on this page that 12 images are sufficient. Also, your proposed addition includes nearly all men and only one woman. Please see the archives for this page and Talk:African American/summary. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 13:50, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Racist article

This article offends me as a white African-American, why does it assume that only black people can be African-Americans? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.164.97.92 (talk) 11:33, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

As I understand it, the term is (almost) exclusively used for black people, and reliable sources calling white people african-americans would be hard to find. There are white people born/living in Africa, but even if they move to the Americas they are not commonly reffered to as african-americans. So this article won´t do that either, unless you can show with good sources that they are. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:10, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe the white Africans are almost exclusively referred to as Afrikaners. The WP article misleads with its supplemental article about Cape Coloureds. I know from personal experience, as there were eight exchange students from Capetown in my dental school class. They called themselves Dutch Afrikaners. All of them were caucasian. Dr. Hoo (talk) 22:09, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

@PresidentistVB: I am not sure what your point is here but I will correct you anyway. I am South African and I can assure you not all white Africans are referred to as Afrikaners, who speak Afrikaans as a first language. Aside from white Africans in African countries other than South Africa, the other 40% of white South Africans speak English as a first language courtesy of the British diaspora. Coloureds, including Cape Coloureds, are a different ethnic group altogether. HelenOnline 08:24, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

@OP: Wikipedia articles don't "assume" anything, their editors (anyone) are supposed to get their information from reliable sources and cite them in the article. If not, another editor (anyone) should come along and fix it. HelenOnline 08:35, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

@HelenOnline: My point, which you supplemented nicely, is that not all African Americans are of the same race (referring here to the three, primary, original and undisputed first human races: Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid), so defining "African Americans" as a geo-ancestral term would seem to contradict or conflict with reality. (And yes, my Johannesburg and Cape Town friends, mostly Jewish, spoke English fluently.) Dr. Hoo (talk) 09:03, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. If I follow you correctly, "race" and ethnic groups are social constructs so they can be based on just about anything (per reliable sources of course). HelenOnline 09:47, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

This article provides several sources for it's definition of the term African-American as "citizens of the United States who have total or partial antebellum ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa." White Africans who become American are not African-Americans, and neither are the black east Africans who have repatriated to the US after the civil war (this term would also not apply to Egyptian-Americans). I understand why you'd want to call yourself African-American, but that term is already taken.50.81.150.190 (talk) 10:03, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

The African American identity was formed long ago, culturally, linguistically and genetically. It's not something new. Middayexpress (talk) 15:30, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

AAVE & genetics

There doesn't appear to be any material on African American Vernacular English and the unique genetic profile of African Americans. Language and genetics are common features of many ethnic group wiki-pages. Bryc et al. (2009) provides a good summary of the latter [8]. Middayexpress (talk) 15:30, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Definition Problem?

Does Barak Obama belong on this page? At the very least the ancestry.com source included on his mother's page should be referenced here, but even if that source is accurate it would mean that Barak Obama is 1/2 postbellum Kenyan, almost 1/2 English, German, Swiss, Scottish, Irish, and Welsh mixed, and exactly 1/1024 African-American. I realize that the definition on the page technically says "total or partial," but at some point this fraction escapes the usage of the term. We wouldn't say that Obama's mother was the first African-American president if she had been elected. It's even possible that by this "one drop" definition there have been other African-American presidents (though most of the sources seem unreliable). This seems like a problem, particularly considering how often Obama is mentioned on the page.50.81.150.190 (talk) 10:39, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

He does. Plenty of reliable sources agree that he is african american, and he selfidentifies that way. On WP, that means he belongs. Details about his or his mothers ancestry belongs in their articles, not here. "Antebellum" isn´t really mandatory, but that comes a little later in the lead. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:55, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

• Bein African American is not a question about ancestry primarily, but a question of identity and beloning to a community. In terms of wikipedia ethnicity of living persons is defined through selfidentification. Wikipedia does not use the one drop rule, but historical US has used this rule and that is why in the US people with approximately equal amounts of African and European acnestry tend to identify as and to be identified as African American.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:52, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Quote from the FAQ at the Barack Obama talkpage:

"A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa," a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American." Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:04, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

The current definition in the lead does not reflect the wording you use. Antebellum is absolutely mandatory according to the definition supplied (the paragraph following is not an alternative but a supplement, look at the references provided). If you have a specific source for that definition, you could add it to the lead as one of the possible definitions of the term. As for self-identification, compare L. Ron Hubbard, who's self-identifications (primary source material) are contradicted by a variety of primary and secondary sources (secondary sources are preferred under WP source guidelines). I realize that many people use your definition and I have no problem with that, but it doesn't currently appear on the page and it needs reliable secondary sources (not anything produced by a political candidate who wanted the African-American vote).50.81.150.190 (talk) 11:21, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I have reviewed the archive/summary talk section on Barak Obama, and it doesn't really address this issue (in fact many of the posters do not seem to have read very carefully). The current definition on this page reads "citizens of the United States who have total or partial antebellum ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa." The paragraph after does not contradict this definition, it clarifies it. African-Americans do not have to be descended from slaves, but by the definition on the page they must have antebellum African-American ancestry. African-American is a cultural distinction, not a racial one. 20th century African immigrants from homogeneous African ethnic groups do not share a culture with African-Americans who, as this article mentions, often adopt a pan-African identity and cannot usually trace their ancestry to a specific ethnic group. In short, African-Americans call each other brother, where Africans sometimes kill other Africans because they know that there is a big difference between one kind of African and another. Either the definition on the page needs to be expanded (a section on varying usages of the term would be appropriate), or Obama needs to be removed.50.81.150.190 (talk) 11:12, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

That's correct. However, it's more than culture and history that sets African Americans apart. It's also a distinct language (African American Vernacular English) and genetic profile, both of which evolved over many years. In fact, the West and Central Africans to whom African Americans trace the Africa-derived portion of their ancestry were already genetically distinct from many other populations in Africa prior to their arrival in the New World. The real analogue of Africa in terms of heterogeneity is thus Asia (where many distinct indigenous populations similarly exist; e.g. Andamanese, Bedouins and Japanese), not Europe. Middayexpress (talk) 15:30, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Reading "However, some immigrants from African, Caribbean, Central American, and South American nations, and their descendants, may be identified or self-identify with the term.[5]" again, I have to agree with you that it doesn´t contradict the "demand" to be antebellum. My solution would be to remove "antebellum" from the first sentence. I actually did that and argued for it a while back (at "Antebellum?" above) but was reverted. Since the lead also states "Most African Americans are of West and Central African descent and are descendants of enslaved blacks within the boundaries of the present United States.", I think the word is unnecessary, and, as you have shown, confuses things. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:27, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that will work, considering that many other places in the article emphasize the use of the term "to give descendants of American slaves and other American blacks who lived through the slavery era a heritage and a cultural base." Nearly every source on the page treats the term as a cultural designation that specifically relies on antebellum ancestry. The fact that there is a different definition that exists in popular usage is relevant, but it doesn't mean that there isn't a more specific definition used by civil rights leaders/activists, academics, the US government, and various other sources referenced on this page.50.81.150.190 (talk) 11:38, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

So.

• On WP, Barack is absolutely an african american, because almost everybody (including him) says so.
• According to the lead (at least) of this particular article, you have to have some suffient antebellum aa-ancestry to be an african american. Which he don´t.

I´d say we change this article, but I´m just one editor. Maybe there´s material for a "The african american-ness of Barack Obama" article... Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:58, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Obama is an exception, largely because of his presidential position. Technically, though, he indeed is not African American; see Public image of Barack Obama. Middayexpress (talk) 15:30, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

That article says:

• "As the first African-American President of the United States, his race and culture have played a prominent role in this, both positively and negatively."
• "Obama, who is of biracial background, is regarded and self identifies as African-American.[1][2]"
• "Black commentators such as Stanley Crouch of the New York Daily News expressed mixed feelings about his racial identity, while others like Laura Washington (Chicago Sun-Times), Gary Younge (The Nation), and Clarence Page (Houston Chronicle) reported a general ambivalence among the black community about his authenticity as an African-American.[5]"
• "On the liberal website Salon Debra wrote, "African-American, in our political and social vocabulary, means those descended from West African slaves, because Obama is not a descendant of West Africans brought involuntarily to the United States as slaves, he is not African-American,"[6]".

To me, that does not support your statement "Technically, though, he indeed is not African American;" Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:07, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Also, this article says "In her book The End of Blackness, as well as in an essay on the liberal website Salon,[181] author Debra Dickerson has argued that the term "black" should refer strictly to the descendants of Africans brought to America as slaves, and not the sons and daughters of black immigrants who lack that ancestry. In her opinion, President Barack Obama, who is the son of a Kenyan immigrant, although technically African-American, is not black.[181][182]." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:21, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

It's the last bulleted point that spells it out: "African-American, in our political and social vocabulary, means those descended from West African slaves, because Obama is not a descendant of West Africans brought involuntarily to the United States as slaves, he is not African-American". And the one after it by Stanley Crouch: "Stanley Crouch wrote in the New York Daily News, "Obama's mother is of white U.S. stock. His father is a black Kenyan," in a column entitled "What Obama Isn't: Black Like Me". That's the standard definition of "African American". If Obama had been an ordinary African American like Crouch, there would also be no birther movement. Middayexpress (talk) 18:30, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

And (if WP got it right), the same person that wrote "African-American, in our political and social vocabulary, means those descended from West African slaves, because Obama is not a descendant of West Africans brought involuntarily to the United States as slaves, he is not African-American" also wrote "President Barack Obama, who is the son of a Kenyan immigrant, although technically African-American, is not black.[181][182]." And yes, if both his parents had been americans there probably wouldn´t have been a birther movement, is that relevant here? Your opinion is clear (and you tend to state it as fact). Mine is, that Obama is an unusual kind of african american, but nonetheless african american. I don´t see us agreeing on this, so I guess this article will remain as it is unless other editors weigh in. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:58, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I think it is a problem to try to define ethnic categories like "African-American" or "American" too narrowly, and especially to try to exlude people based on narrow definitions contrary to arguments from selfidentification and community membership. There is not a single definition for being African-American, rather there are many different understandings and definitions in use that share only a family resemblance. The article should try to explain these different understandings and include all of the perspoectives that are common in the literature rather than arbitrarily stick to one. As for Obama, there is not much to discuss really, the vast majority of sources including himself define him as African-American. That is the gold standard for Wikipedia. If the definition used in the article contradicts the ones used by a majority of sources, then the problem is with the article.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:26, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

The second paragraph already notes that "some immigrants from African, Caribbean, Central American, and South American nations, and their descendants, may be identified or self-identify with the term". Per the lede and weight policies, this is just not given equal standing with the standard, concise definition of "African American". Middayexpress (talk) 19:37, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

If Obama had been born in Kenya as birthers often claim, he still wouldn't technically be African American because his biological father was a Nilotic Luo gentleman from Kenya. Obama jr. would instead simply be the son of a local Luo man and a foreign American woman. If Obama sr., for example, had moved to France, he would not have been an African American in France. He would instead have been a Kenyan immigrant in France. It is also not opinion that African Americans have a unique history, culture, language and genetic profile that was shaped in the New World. This is fact. Although some immigrants from African, Caribbean, Central American, and South American nations or their descendants may be identified or self-identify with the term (which is noted in the lead), the concise, standard definition of "African Americans" is citizens of the United States who are descendants of people from Africa from the antebellum period. This African American/Afro-American identity was formed long ago and is distinct from that of modern West/Central Africans, with whom African Americans share the Africa-derived portion of their ancestry [9]. Besides Gomez (1998), which explores in depth this ethnogenesis, please again see the Library of Congress' African American History Month [10] and Afro-American Genealogical Research [11]. Middayexpress (talk) 19:37, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

You are confused about one thing: to be a member of an ethnic group it is not necessary that you share all elements of their history, it is only necessary that you identify as a member, through words actions and symbols, and that on the wole others identify you as a member as well. If we were o peform a genetic test on Tupac Shakurs body and find that his only recent African ancestry was from Kenya in the 20th century he woud still be an African American. And if we were to test Mitt Romney and find that he was a direct lineal descendant of Denmark Vesey he still wouldnt be an African American, not even if he also listened to Tupac and loved to cook soulfood (becaue he doesnt identify as such and noone identifies him as such). This means that the only way we in wikipedia have to determine if someone is or is not a member of ethnic group X is through sources in which they selfidentity as X, and in which others identify them as X. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:36, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Were he still alive, the Africa-derived portion of Tupac's ancestry would trace back to West/Central Africa, like pretty much all African Americans [12]. At any rate, it takes much more than self-identification to determine an ethnic group. If it didn't, so-called "wiggas" would be African American too. But they aren't because they don't share any significant recent ancestry with actual African Americans. As explained here, "an ethnicity, or ethnic group, is a social group of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural, or national experience. Membership of an ethnic group tends to be associated with shared cultural heritage, ancestry, history, homeland, language (dialect), or ideology, and with symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc.". Middayexpress (talk) 17:55, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes it takes more than selfidentification, I have already said that. However what it takes apart from selfidentification is not ancestry, but that the community and others also identify. No amount of American slave ancestry can turn Mitt Romnney or someone else into an African American. I already included the use of cultural knowledge and symbols in my statement. And by the way I wrote the lead to "Ethnic group", so no need to quote that at me (it isnt a reliable source either of course). Just stick to the sources and you'll be OK, and Obama will continue to be African American.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:36, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Just so it's clear, I don't particularly care whether or not Obama is African American. I just addressed this point because it was suggested that his situation was unusual. At any rate, common ancestry is definitely a primordial attribute of an ethnic group [13]. A foreign man, for example, can move to China, learn the Mandarin language and mainstream Chinese culture with great fluency, and perhaps even acquire Chinese citizenship. However, he will never ethnically be Han Chinese, even if he is accepted into such a constituency. This is because the foreign man doesn't have actual Han Chinese ancestors, and his genes will reflect this too. Unless he procreates with a Han Chinese woman, the man's children also won't have any significant Han Chinese ancestry. This is the nature of ethnicity. Middayexpress (talk) 14:04, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Free People of Color

·The article leaves out the fact that MANY of the Free People of Color were actually Mulatto who were born to White women. In Virginia and N.C. many of these people were actually Native Americans, hence; the Virginia Indians who have now began fighting for their identities to be changed back in earlier Censuses. The prior gave rise to much of the Melungeon community, but nearly EVERY African American has a significant amount of European DNA followed by a small amount of Native American in a smaller subgroup of the Afram pop, especially those with NC and Va. ancestry where so many FPOC resided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.177.171.11 (talk) 04:43, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

African-Americans featured at the top of the page

The featured photos are overwhelmingly civil rights activists. I feel more artists, writers, musicians, athletes, scientists, etc. could be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.34.2 (talk) 15:12, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2014

Please add Trayvon Martin in the article. 172.56.7.89 (talk) 15:31, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a specific change - this is not a basic list to which a name can just be added.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ", including the exact wording you are proposing.
Given the history of disputes over additions to this article, you should also seek consensus on this talk-page. - Arjayay (talk) 16:36, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 September 2014

Most of the "so-called" African-American, Afro-American and Black-American are native Americans. The evidence found today suggest that West Africans travel to what is known as Mexico today and eventually migrated north before slavery in America was founded.

Link the following article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Indians_in_the_United_States

(109.58.142.173 (talk) 08:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)) 109.58.142.173 (talk) 07:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Not done: try actually reading the article. or the article Native Americans. or the one on African Americans Cannolis (talk) 14:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I'D like to know why they don't include that before the 1920's we'd established businesses in Detroit

By 1920, African-Americans owned 350 businesses in Detroit, including a movie theater, the only black-owned pawn shop in the United States, a co-op grocery and a bank. The community also had 17 physicians, 22 lawyers, 22 barber shops, 13 dentists, 12 cartage agencies, 11 tailors, 10 restaurants, 10 real estate dealers, eight grocers, six drug stores, five undertakers, four employment offices, a few garages and a candy maker. The community was centered on the near east side of downtown in the area of St. Antoine, Hastings, Brush, John R, Gratiot, Vernor, Madison, Beacon, Elmwood, Larned and Lafayette. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrysos7777 (talk • contribs) 19:47, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Suggested Edit: Early Signs of Transition between allegiance between the Democrat and Republican parties

The Public: A Journal of Democracy, Volume 2; Volume 11 edited by Louis Freeland Post, Alice Thatcher Post, Stoughton Cooley

The book contains old volumes of the newspaper "The Public" and for Vol. XI Chicago, Friday June 26, 1908 No. 534 it has on page 292 (of the book) in the entry titled "Negros and the Republican Party", J.G.H. Woods a Republican Party manager at a meeting of the Negro American Political Equity League is quoted as saying: If we put the Republican party out of business this fall it may not do us any good. But you can bet that four years from now the Republican Party will be around wanting to do business with us. And what is more, if we show the Democrats that we can put them into power, these same Democrats that have passed the laws against us will be mighty tender of our feelings in order to keep in power.

Sicktoaster099 (talk) 00:56, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Post-Civil Rights era history

I have a WP:RECENTISM concern, and a concern of the structure of the history subsection "Post-Civil Rights era". While one paragraph speaks of increased political representation of the subject of the article as a whole, the second paragraph, minus what I just added about increased immigration, is focused on President Obama. This coincides with the Great Man theory presentation of history, but I think given everything that has happened to African Americans as a whole, and the impact African Americans have had on the larger American culture, as well as achievements like COL Bluford being the First African American to go into space.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:19, 26 October 2014 (UTC)