Talk:Agatha All Along (miniseries)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Peter Cameron a writer on this series?

Was looking through WGA as some Ms. Marvel credits came through for Episode 1, and I looked through Peter Cameron and it lists Agatha House of Harkness on his page, he was a writer on WandaVision so could have transferred over to this series? https://directories.wga.org/member/petercameron/ -TrixieCat123 (User talk:TrixieCat123) 19:03, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Did some more looking, Cameron Squires, another staff writer on WandaVision, has Agatha listed on their page https://directories.wga.org/member/cameronsquires/ -TrixieCat123 (User talk:TrixieCat123) 19:31, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

And finally, Laura Donney, another staff writer from WandaVision, has the series listed on her page https://directories.wga.org/member/lauradonney/ So I think this can be sufficient enough to list in this draft since WGA is pretty reliable -TrixieCat123 (User talk:TrixieCat123) 19:33, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

This all looks good to me, as the Writers Guild is reliable. Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:21, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

I adjusted the wording because the listings don't have credits, so it would be improper to say "staff writers" for each, only that they are working on it. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:39, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Release date

@Favre1fan93: I believe what the Variety source meant by "Winter 2023/2024" is that the show will premiere in Winter 2023 and continue into 2024. The Marvel.com press release also just says Winter 2023. InfiniteNexus (talk) 02:37, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

@InfiniteNexus: The graphic in the Hall H panel had "Winter 2023/2024" if I'm not mistaken. I took it initially to mean it could debut in November 2023 or January 2024, but I see now how it could mean it will be releasing across the end of 2023 and into the start of 2024. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:43, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Marvel.com, which appears to have only partially updated their entry, just says Winter 2023. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:19, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93? InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:31, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Judging by Marvel.com's page and articles on this and the Hall H presentation, in addition to the WGA writers ref, the series was expected for the 2023-24 television season, and I took the Hall H display as it starting in the end of 2023 and running into early 2024, with Marvel.com only stating the premiere and not the run, especially since these are only seasonal timeframes and not actual release dates. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:52, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Let's just put late 2023 then. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:43, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I completely forgot about this thread. I'll go ahead and update the articles accordingly. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:58, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

No Longer 2023

disney+ japan released an updated release schedule and it does not include agatha:coven of chaos. any thoughts?223.233.27.215 (talk) 13:45, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

We do not go by Disney's international sites as they have been wrong in the past. Rumors of delays have been swirling but nothing has been officially confirmed. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:33, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Dubious Filming Reports

As those of us who have frequented editing this article may know, the filming start and timeline of this series has been all over the place, and KFTV reported on the filming beginning in Georgia from Dec. 13-17 before a holiday hiatus until today (Jan. 3). After a quick Google search, this Midgard Times / MoviesR.net report from Jan. 1 showed up as an "exclusive" report for the info covered in KFTV's article. The Cosmic Circus' EiC Lizzie Hill (which is considered to be an unreliable source) has stated that she did not believe the Dec filming was for Agatha and that it was for another Marvel property, that she initially heard Agatha would start on Monday, Jan. 9, before hearing a Jan. 17 start, which is what The Atlanta-Journal Constitution reported on in October. The Dec info lines up with Caulfield Ford's statements. I'm not sure how much we can do with this, though felt it was worth noting here. Trailblazer101 (talk) 03:59, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

We should lean on the Atlanta-Journal Constitution and KFTV sources for now. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:11, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Got it. I figured just as much. Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:17, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

it's also not like some sources are saying it starts now, others in a month, etc. They all are pinning it around this time, so in theory the exact dates don't matter much at the moment, as long as there is a reliable source saying something, which we have. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:36, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

What about here? https://www.georgia.org/industries/film-entertainment/georgia-film-tv-production/now-filming-georgia According to them there is no Disney+ production in Atlanta right now. It was accurate when Echo started filming. Josephzbazin (talk) 19:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with keeping KFTV source. Precise dates aren’t really necessary, just the month and year generally suffice. Also I’ve found that the Georgia Film Commission site doesn’t update regularly. It’s one of my least favorite site for production details. Mike Allen 20:11, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Atlanta-Journal Constitution reports on the Georgia Film Commission's listing updates, though those are usually towards the middle or end of the month. For now, the information that we have works, and should we get any new/different details, we can always update them as needed. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:47, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Turns out the Midgard Times article made a mistake in saying "this Tuesday" (which would have been Jan. 3) when they meant Tuesday (Jan. 17) (current archive), the latter date that AJC reported. As such, KFTV reported on the inaccuracy. I have corrected the info. I expect AJC's issue later this month to have information on this, which we could most likely use if needed. Midgard Times has had a good track record with their production insights, such as the start and wrap dates for Wednesday. They also have filming updates for Armor Wars and Born Again. Trailblazer101 (talk) 21:00, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Agatha: Coven of Chaos (My Pretty S1) is already listed on georgia.org that means it started today or last week? Josephzbazin (talk) 15:11, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

A lot of sources say December filming was just for Ironheart "Mephisto" scenes, not Agatha. So it's pretty unclear I guess. Josephzbazin (talk) 15:13, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

The Mephisto info is all from sources deemed unreliable. I think the specific date in January is not as important, as the December filming info has not been disputed by a reliable source. AJC should have their listing report later this month, and even then, they do take some info from other listing sites. We should be fine with the current version of the article's information, and as always, if anything comes out clarifying the information, we can always adjust it. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:37, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Given THR's report today (which confirmed the directors and cast) reaffirmed the Tuesday, Jan. 17 start that AJC reported, and the fact that KFTV got their info from Midgard Times (which was not initially correct and WP:FRUIT would more than likely apply for that one), I have restored the AJC filming info plus THR's re-verification of it. I was going to bring up more about this and see what AJC's listing from later this month would include, though I think it's clear MT should not be used in the future given their errors in initial report. MT reports for Born Again and Armor Wars were also added, although the AW stuff could have been from the initial series filming plan. Trailblazer101 (talk) 00:02, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

You see, I told you it's not filming. Lizzie Hill is the only one who reported it will begin filming next week. So she is now reliable? Josephzbazin (talk) 09:15, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

No no, AJC reported that back in October. This one thing she got right when it was just reaffirming what was already somewhat known does not make her and her site reliable. The sole reason we believed it started earlier was because KFTV (a reliable source) said so, before they provided where they got their info from, which appears to be unreliable. As for the Georgia Film Commission listing, it could be up there right now for some pre-prod work going on. Trailblazer101 (talk) 09:28, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay, gotcha. THR confirmed it. But THR is not so reliable now since they made up a story and James Gunn debunked it. Josephzbazin (talk) 09:44, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

THR is a very reliable site. Creatives and people in the industry will deny anything given stuff gets leaked by studio insiders ahead of schedule or when things are still under discussion and not finalized. Though that's a topic for a different place and time. Trailblazer101 (talk) 10:14, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Off topic

Listen. If trailer for Secret Invasion will be released during Super Bowl and not What If...? Season 2, that simply means it will be officialy delayed. Even tho Secret Invasion trailer is rumored to come out in March. Also if Season 2 is releasing in Early 2023 we would already have a teaser or a trailer. Just check Marvel's release strategy. Trailer at least 2-3 months before premiere. Secret Invasion trailer was released first and series will premiere this Spring (rumored in MAY). So that means What If S2 will release after Secret Invasion. Josephzbazin (talk) 14:01, 30 January 2023 (UTC) We would need a reliable source to state any of that, as WP:original research is not allowed on Wikipedia. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:30, 30 January 2023 (UTC) New Disney Plus video only features Secret Invasion and Loki S2 as STREAMING SOON, confirming WHAT IF S2 is not gonna premiere in Early 2023. Josephzbazin (talk) 22:15, 5 February 2023 (UTC) An exclusion of material is not a confirmation of something not happening, and is still OR. This discussion would be better suited at the wider TV series list rather than here, as it is veering off topic from this series. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:21, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Surely this isn't 2023 anymore?

I know the reports that Echo and Ironheart weren't coming this year didn't mention Agatha, but it's only just started filming. I imagine that Agatha is also delayed, even if it wasn't mentioned. This isn't enough to put into the article I know, but keep tabs on it, I imagine it'll get announced soon. -TrixieCat123 (User talk:TrixieCat123) 23:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

THR's report on the MCU delays singled out SI and Loki S2 as "the only sure bets to debut this year" before stating that projects that are in post-production, such as IH and Echo, were "unlikely" to be 2023, and that in development shows have slowed down. As Agatha is filming, it doesn't fall into the latter two categories. While I personally doubt it will meet its release, they could pull what they did with WandaVision and complete a lot of editing during filming, though to note, they did announce it was for "Winter 2023/24", so that could apply to the start of 2024 rather than end of '23 now, but we can't make that judgement off of what we have from the sources currently. Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:35, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

We could probably make some sort of mention based on the "the only sure bets to debut this year" line. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:58, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I felt it might be beneficial for this specifically to reintroduce the "Late 2023/early 2024" usage where necessary, but in the above discussion we came to consensus that that likely meant "starting in 2023 and going into 2024", with Marvel.com using only "Winter 2023" on its site for the show. I would be in favor of restoring this date formatting and then making a mention like Adam suggested about Loki S2 and SI being the only likely definitive releases this year. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:20, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm thinking such a mention could definitely note that it is not one of the only sure series for this year. I think the prior wording should be reinstated, as it could very well not debut this year, and we know Marvel.com doesn't always update things right away until it is very concrete. Trailblazer101 (talk) 01:31, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Well the Marvel.com thing was from after the SDCC announcement, so that's why we went with just that. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:44, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I think we could use this wording: By February 2023, Disney and Marvel Studios were re-evaluating their content output, with Secret Invasion and the second season of Loki being the only definitive series to debut that year." or something along those lines. Trailblazer101 (talk) 06:35, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

My feeling for the "Release" section is this: Agatha: Coven of Chaos is scheduled to premiere on Disney+ in late 2023 or early 2024,[ref] and will consist of nine episodes.[ref] By February 2023, amid Disney and Marvel Studio re-evaluating their content output, Secret Invasion and the second season of Loki were believed to be the only "sure bets" to debut in 2023.[THR source] And then add "late 2023/early 2024" to the lead and Phase Five table, but I don't think we need a efn note in the table or in the Agatha section because the "early 2024" covers us for a non-2023 release. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:25, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I think that approach works best to convey what we know. Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:36, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/loki-season-2-premiere-date-disney-plus-echo-1235615224/ With the recent announcements of Loki S2 and Echo's premiere dates, Variety says that Ironheart and Agatha are expected to debut in 2024. -TrixieCat123 (User talk:TrixieCat123) -TrixieCat123 (User talk:TrixieCat123) 02:51, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Locke, Plaza, and Gutierrez-Riley roles

The Zamata Mashable article has been updated to remove the roles for Locke, Plaza, and Guiterrez-Riley. To me, that smells like a publicist got wind of their inclusion and contacted the author, but wanted to bring it up to see if anyone had any thoughts on if we should remove/hide the info now. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:43, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Seems like a situation where information was released before it was supposed to. The update note at the bottom of the article doesn't say the former details were incorrect so I don't think it is clear that the initial information was unreliable. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm with adam on this, and I don't think that necessarily means it should be removed. Worst case scenario we can just tag it as needing additional verification. Trailblazer101 (talk) 02:43, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd say keeping it and tagging it would be the best option. -- ZooBlazer^talk 02:59, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Removing Old Title Logo

I previously removed the title card from the article due to the series name change, but the edit was reverted.

I think that conveying the "overall design" is pointless if the title in the logo is straight up incorrect now. Also, even though there is a caption saying "previous title", on first glance readers can be confused by the title card being different from the article title, especially on mobile where the logo is the top image.

Thus, I think we should remove the title card and restore it when an updated, official title card is released.

cc: @Trailblazer101 Hummerrocket (talk) 18:16, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with including a logo of a former title. During the COVID pandemic, there were multiple dates, posters, and logos changed for films that got delayed, such as Tenet, Black Widow, Venom: Let There Be Carnage, No Time to Die, and Dune. Those articles retained the files with prior dates and logos until a more updated one was released. The title change is detailed in the lead for our readers to understand, and the caption clearly explains this. Removing the logo outright would then leave it blank, conveying less of what this series may be to prospective readers. The prior logo and title was in use for 14 months, so some readers may still be used to seeing that over nothing. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:23, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

The difference between this logo and your examples is that in this case, the blatantly incorrect title is front and center. Really, the main justification for keeping the logo is the look and feel of the design, but that is at the expense of the actual text that is conveyed. I think that the text itself should take precedence over the design in this case and that we should follow the approach as Wonder Man (miniseries). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hummerrocket (talk • contribs) 19:21, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Wonder Man never had a logo officially released to go off of while Agatha does, and it is better for an article to have an image when one is available than willingly choosing to remove one. Most of our readers are smart enough to read the lead and caption and understand that the title changed, which has reportedly been intentional for the show's plot, so I wouldn't say the prior titles were inherently "incorrect". Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:03, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Touché. The fact that the trades reported that this title change is not due to indecisiveness by Marvel Studios does show the series' (very early) marketing. Keeping the old logo would give context to this. Fair enough, we can keep it. Hummerrocket (talk) 20:41, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

New logo

A logo with the new title is up at [1]. It looks like they either didn't mean to release it yet, or decided to do so quietly without anyone noticing. I was about to go ahead and upload it anyway, but now I'm having second thoughts. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:09, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I say go ahead and just upload it. I assume since the logo itself is basically the same as before, they felt uploading it quietly was fine. -- ZooBlazer^talk 00:24, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I was wondering if they would upload it there. I think we should use it as it is official. Trailblazer101 (talk) 02:17, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Gandja Monteiro directing finale

https://www.chelsea.com/roster/gandja-monteiro On Chelsea.com, Monteiro is listed as directing multiple episodes, and the "first finale" of Agatha. -TrixieCat123 (User talk:TrixieCat123) -TrixieCat123 (User talk:TrixieCat123) 21:36, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

 Added the information. Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Passing mention later removed from article is not reliable

An early version of the Sasha Zameta briefly mentioned that Locke was playing Billy. The current version does not contain it. A passing mention in a single article not even about Locke or directly about the show would be dubious at best. The fact that they removed it shows that it's simply not reliable. Locke is probably playing Billy, but there are simply not any reliable sources to confirm it. Just like everyone knew Agnes was Agatha from the start, it doesn't matter until we have actual confirmation. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 18:58, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

@JDDJS: See Talk:Agatha: Darkhold Diaries/Archive 1#Locke, Plaza, and Gutierrez-Riley roles for why this is included. The ref has since been tagged as "deviated", prompting the earlier version with the material to be the directly cited source. We do not need Marvel's confirmation to include reported material. Trailblazer101 (talk) 00:13, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Title change.... again

So there is a new rumor floating around that the series will actually be called Agatha All Along. As such, I have preemptively created Agatha All Along (miniseries) and Agatha All Along (song). Assuming the reported styling is correct and "All Along" is not a subtitle, and obviously this does come to pass, Agatha All Along (which is the song currently) will need to move to the new (song) page I created so the non-disambiguated title can become a disambiguation page like Glorious Purpose. Additionally, if these title changes are part of an in-universe reason, in the long run once we see how it all shakes out, getting some commentary (possibly in the marketing section) about this. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:32, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Woe, what mischievous joy! I figured they may just end up with this title or simply Agatha, though it seems all bets are off and each title may end up being a different era akin to WandaVision's sitcoms. Either way, it's good to keep an eye on all of these and to be prepared for whatever outcome. Some commentary on the various title changes and the connotations of it would definitely be beneficial. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:52, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I have a sneaking suspicion each episode is going to be titled differently. Like for episode one, which could have its own name, the series is named All Along, while episodes two and three are Coven of Chaos etc. It's going to definitely be a unique one. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:06, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Oh, for sure! I think we're up for their little trickery. Trailblazer101 (talk) 07:08, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

And once more. According to the Disney+ page, it is now just called "Agatha", with no subtitle whatsoever. - Jasonbres (talk) 23:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 11 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Agatha (miniseries) by User:Trailblazer101. (like, as for me, I'm not the mover, I'm just closing the already-completed RM.) Paintspot Infez (talk) 00:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

---

Agatha: Darkhold Diaries → Agatha – Disney+ logo reveal Jasonbres (talk) 23:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

•  Already done Moved to Agatha (TV series) per source and logo in article. The suggested Agatha is incorrect. Please, for future reference, include a source in the article when making such changes rather than making unsourced changes. Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:25, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Trailblazer101 Shouldn't it be Agatha (miniseries) for consistency? -- ZooBlazer 23:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

  Ah, you're right. Too many gosh darn titles! Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:32, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

  Aaaannndd the redirect moves didn't like working right away for the talk pages when I tried it right away so I had to go through a roundabout way of moving them, but it finally worked! Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

premise addition

I think the premise should also mention Scarlet Witch's death in MoM. Think about it, the Scarecrow said (in Journey Back to Oz, mind) that "When an evil witch dies, all her magic dies with her." How else would Agatha be able to break free of her containment? Visokor (talk) 08:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source stating this is the case? We cannot add it just because you think that is the reason. - adamstom97 (talk) 09:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Hulkling

All we have is a single source from an outdated article where the information was later removed. If we’re going to be making claims we should have more than that.

Most likely the author just read that the actor was playing Locke’s boyfriend and said he was Hulkling. It’s just speculation and rumor.

The reason why people keep removing it is because it’s false. Delderd (talk) 17:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

As per the prior discussion on this, it was determined that while the source removed the information, the editor's note it provided did not justify ruling out the removed information as somehow incorrect. WP:Verifiability not truth applies in this case, as the claim is supported by this reliable source. Random Twitter "scoopers" are NOT WP:Reliable sources and cannot be used to verify what you are changing. Similarly, sources directly citing information from an unreliable source (ie the Twitter account) are also unreliable due to WP:FRUIT. For now, this is the most reliably sourced information we have, whether it remains accurate in the end or not. We go by what the sources state. No reliable sources have come out reporting/confirming this is not the case, either, so if all you have to go off of is your own belief and some random Twitter account, the WP:STATUSQUO remains in place unless you convince others to change the current consensus. Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

how is that single article a reliable source when the relevant information was removed from the article? There are numerous other articles saying the character is undisclosed. Delderd (talk) 23:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

And here's the author herself admitting it was a mistake. [2] Delderd (talk) 23:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Now, that is a reliable source we can actually go off of. Had you provided this earlier rather than repeatedly reverting back to your preferred version (which, mind you, is against the WP:Edit warring policy), we could have come to this conclusion sooner and easier. I have restored the information of the actor playing Billy's boyfriend as that is still sourced by the article originally and not denied by the author, and that at the very least should not have been removed in favor of saying it is an undisclosed role, though I have kept the Hulkling mention hidden for now given the other cast roles turned out to be accurate. It is always better to be proactive in providing evidence sooner rather than later in a collaborative setting, as the many reverts could have been averted earlier. Trailblazer101 (talk) 00:49, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Rebranding

Please see what to add from this. Kailash29792 (talk) 09:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe everything that is relevant to this article is already included, but I have added this source as a better one than what we had. - adamstom97 (talk) 12:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Good decision, as it is straight from the horse's mouth (the horse being Winderbaum). Kailash29792 (talk) 12:14, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Episode titles

For consistency, should we use the titles from Disney+, or the ones given on the title screen? Wcdowchb (talk) 03:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say Disney+ because that is how they are titled as and also on the Futon Critic. — YoungForever^(talk) 03:33, 10 October 2024 (UTC)