Talk:Akdamar Island

King Gagik

(Note by Andrys: Correction: "Kung Gagik" should be "King Gagik" and I've corrected that on my source page, thanks.)

Thanks, Andrys. Please open up a Wikipedia account & start contributing with your wonderful images! :) mu5ti/✏ 19:27, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

never mind..! --Mightier than the sword 09:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC), --Mightier than the sword 20:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

References & Footnotes

I have removed the footnote references for Hewsen, Robert H. (2001). Armenia: a historical atlas. The work is a tertiary source and all the information about Aghtamar contained within it are already contained in the works cited in the references section. I don't think any of the points that had the those Hewson citations needed citations anyway, since none were contentious. Meowy 02:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

It's always nice to have references for facts. I still don't see why you've removed the references. I can imagine some people disputing the fate of the Armenian monks on the island during the Armenian Genocide, as well as people (e.g. the Turkish government, or others working for them) disputing that there was an Armenian catholicos there upto 1915. Serouj 06:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

But you don't need references for facts that are undisputed. It just breaks up the flow of the page and (in a way) it suggests that undisputed facts are actually in dispute. I can see a point in having a reference for the 1915 event (so I should not have removed that reference), but better maybe to use a primary source (such as Nogales, who was an eyewitness) rather then a tertiary source like Hewsen Meowy 17:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

New article for the church?

It might be a good idea to have a new article for the church since it has been restored and that there are quite a few sources in the Internet about it + pictures already.. If there is one already, take no notice, maybe I just missed it.. Baristarim 23:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I would wait until the actual re-opening. Meowy 00:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

No worries, I was just throwing it out there :) Baristarim 00:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Btw, about the Kurdish pronounciation of the island's name - I have been to Van and can say that most of the local population still pronounce it the original way. That is not a source of course! But I imagine that there must be language websites out there that would indicate that there is no "gh" in modern Turkish, but that there is in Kurdish. Meowy 14:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I updated the intro and removed the fact tag for the moment - however I don't know if anyone else will ask for sources. Baristarim 23:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, on follow-up to my note from a week earlier above, there was an article created today at Akdamar church - it included only one paragraph taken from this article, and no improvements on it whatsoever. I went ahead and was bold and redirected here. I thought that there would be no problems since I aired a similar proposal for a new article before. It still stands obviously, but I think we might take another look at it since it is not clear how we will seperate content between articles since the island is only notable because of the church. Obviously, if anyone wants to write a new and longer article for the church, go ahead. Just wanted to note the merge for the record.. Baristarim 22:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Moving on from the discussion above, the church has reopened, and has had a service, and there is an article Armenian Cathedral of the Holy Cross. However, much of the text of the article is duplicated in the section 'The Armenian Cathedral of the Holy Cross' in the Akdamar Island article. So now, this section needs to be reduced in size - it already has a link to the article on the same subject. Coyets (talk) 11:52, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Possible Latin origins of the name Աղթամար (Altamar)

Many people don't know this, but the letter <ղ> in Classical Armenian stands for a letter similar to the Latin <l>.

Hence, in Classical Armenian, Աղթամար was pronounced like Altamar or Althamar. In breaking Altamar to its Latin roots, we get "Alta"+"Mare" or "above sea" or "high (altitude) sea."

In conclusion, Աղթամար may really be the Classical Armenian spelling (or approximation) for the Latin "alta mare", meaning "above sea" island or "high altitude sea" island.

(this is just a thought, though...) Serouj 07:11, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Actualy the most probable origin of the name of the island may come from Indo-European ancestry, being formed by *alt- ("salt", Armenian aght- or agh-) and *maar ("see", Russian "море", the Armenian analogue of this word is մոր "swamp" as in Մեծամոր "Great swamp")

Vazgen Ghazaryan 15:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Photographic evidence of desecration?

Please provide reliable and verifiable references showing that "desecretion" pictures are indeed caused by acts of desecration and not by other motives, reasons, and even non-human factors such as acts of nature including earthquakes for which the region is famous for. Until then I am leaving the pictures but removing the title of "Desecration after the Armenian Genocide". Thanks. 85.107.39.162 (talk) 08:30, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

"Desecration"

Aram van, what is the reason to describe the photos as Desecration after the Armenian Genocide. Is there any RS identifying them so? --Quantum666 (talk) 18:48, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Aram van, please provide the sources to call the gallery "before and after genocide". --Quantum666 (talk) 15:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Enough references has been added related to the vandalism of the church. After this point you can not oppose to the term desecration Ali55te (talk) 03:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page not moved per discussion. - GTBacchus^(talk) 17:37, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

---

Akdamar Island → Akhtamar Island – I don't know why this island is called akdamar on wikipedia. This island has been called as akhtamar for centruies and recently the Turkish government changed the name of the island as Akdamar which has no sense. The only purpose is to mislead the people that there were no armenians lived in that region ever, they try to erase all armenian heritage in Anatolia. But they could not managed to demolish the Armenian church on that island with the great effort of famous turkish writer Yasar Kemal. Is wikipedia an official propaganda web site of the Turkish government ? The situation is so funny in Turkey that they even changed the biological names of the animals http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4328285.stm . This is a writing from a famous journalist from turkey http://www.aztagdaily.com/EnglishSupplement/20070330%20TDN%204%20%281%29.pdf Akdamar Island should be moved to Akhtamar Island unless wikipedia is not an organization works for Turkish government relisting Andrewa (talk) 21:22, 10 June 2011 (UTC) Ali55te (talk) 23:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

• Comment See WP:COMMONNAME "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". Do you know when exactly did the renaming occur? From the article you linked is clear that it was prior to 2007, and the Wikipedia article used this title since its creation in 2005. --Elekhh (talk) 21:25, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
• Comment I tried to search it on google and I found that somewhere around 1980s the turkish government changed the name of the island as Akdamar. This 'Akdamar' name is a crime against humanity. It is part of a cultural genocide. The name is changed from Akh Tamar to Akdamar just because Tamara is an Armenian princess which gives a clue that once there were armenians living in that region. The situation is becoming so frustrating that there are a considerable amount of people in Turkey which claims that the Armenian race never existed they were christian Turks and the church is a Turkish church. You can translate this website and read yourself http://www.turksolu.org/300/basyazi300.htm

Relisting. Despite all the nationalistic fervour above, the proposed move is possibly valid. See WP:official names for a start. Andrewa (talk) 21:22, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per google books: "Akdamar Island" -Llc 140 results/"Akhtamar Island" -Llc 54 results Takabeg (talk) 08:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tumanyan

I heard a similar story when I visited this island. They said "Ax (akh) Tamara". I don't know how they come to know this story. Maybe oral history, maybe folklore... Takabeg (talk) 21:03, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move discussion 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move, again. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:00, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Akdamar Island → AkhTamar Island – This is the second dicussion about the renaming of this page. The reason is that in the previous discussion an imporant evidence about the motivation of the moving was forgotton. If we search this two strings in googlebooks : akdamar island and akhtamar island with "-lic" option we get this following results

• [1] Akhtamar Island -> 56 results
• [2] Akdamar Island -> 154 results
  

But an imprtant point is missing here. In most cases the "island" word is ommited while referencing this island. If we search akhtamar and akdamar with "-lic" option we get this followint results

• [3] Akhtamar 1630 results
• [4] Akdamar 1690 results

If you look at the sentences related to the books you can clearly identify that the authors are talking about the island. In addition there is no other significant place in the world called akhtamar or akdamar. If we look at the results we see that they are almost identical that means none of the name is dominating.

The name of the island changed by Turkish government from Akhtamar Island to Akdamar Island around 1970s ( look at the results with akdamar you will see that the books using this name is published much more recently compared to akhtamar). The reason was the policy of the Turkish government to change the native names of the palces so that people will not question that there were other people lived in that region before. The city of Van which the island is located was a very important city for the ancient Armenian Kingdom and since it is the policy of the Turkish government to deny the Armenian Genocide most of the cities and places which has Armenian names are changed after the Turkish Republic has been established. For example a famous Turkish journalist Cengiz Çandar identifies this event as cultural genocide in his writing with the title "Akhtamar Church or the so-called akdamar museum"[[5]]. For example you can look at this news report from CNN international. The journalist calls the island as akhtamar [6](00:45 and 1:02) more clearly "ɑχtʰɑmɑr" as it mentioned in the article. There is no χ word in latin alphabet hence the closest translation is akhtamar. If you look at the article you can see where the akhtamar comes from. Akh is used in Armenian language when something bad happens and the Tamar is the name of the Armenian Princess lived on that island. You can read the story of this word from the article. You can see a lot of old literature work about the story of akhtamar on the article page and everywhere. Akdamar means "white vein" in Turkish which has nothing to do with that island it is chosen just because the pronounciation is close to akhtamar. This is an article from an turkish university [Gazi University] [7] in page 13 of the document it is written that some of the names of the regions turkified with finding turkish names that will sound similar to the original even though it the meaning has nothing to do with the original name at all and you can see the akhtamar example there. Sometimes people identify this explanation as nationalistic but I just wanted to show you that why this island called akdamar currently. Otherwise you might think what is the significance between akhtamar and akdamar. Ali55te (talk) 21:36, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Ali55te (talk) 21:36, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Oppose: WP:COMMONNAME & Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Use modern names

According to google books:

• "Akdamar Island" -Llc minimum 53
• "Akhtamar Island" -Llc minimum 25

• Akhtamar -Llc includes not only other "Akhtamar" ("Akhtamar Records", "Akhtamar Monastery", "Church of Akhtamar", "Catholicos of Akhtamar", "medieval Armenian cathedral of Akhtamar", "Patriarchate of Akhtamar", "Patriarch of Akhtamar", "Zakaria of Akhtamar", "Helen's Dance Studio (Akhtamar)" etc. Most of them are used in historical context), but also non-Enlish books ("Church of Akhtamar", "reliefs d'Akhtamar", "Catholicos d'Akhtamar" etc.)

P.S. Personally I'm displeased with the policy of "Turkification" of place names. But it can't be helped. Takabeg (talk) 23:24, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Takabeg (talk) 23:24, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

almost 90% of the names you mentioned is directly linked with the Island because the only building on the island is the Armenian Church which has been identified as Akhtamar church in the literature usually. The armenian catholicos used to live there thats why you can see results about cahtolicos, same applies for patriarchate and Zakaria. If you look at carefully you will sure see that some of the Akdamar names also comes from the shops, restaurants in that region or in Turkey mostly. Ali55te (talk) 23:32, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Even an academician from a respected university in Turkey calls the church on the island as Akhtamar Church in 2009. He talks about the restoration of the church which happened a very short time ago means it is not in the context of history. http://research.sabanciuniv.edu/11476/1/Insight_Turkey_Vol_11_No_2_2009_Aybars_Gorgulu.pdf Ali55te (talk) 23:40, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

United States House of Representatives just passed a billed this year called "return of churches" short time ago[8]. One of the matters in the resolution is ” “return to their rightful owners all Christian churches and other places of worship” and “allow the rightful Christian church and lay owners of Christian church properties, without hindrance or restriction, to preserve, reconstruct and repair, as they see fit, all Christian churches.” Which means the right of the Turkey to own the Armenian churches in Turkey is still questioned. The island was once had an Armenian church and the island belonged to Armenians hence still the name of the Armenians is very important even lawsuits can start in the future about the territory of the island.Ali55te (talk) 00:17, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Have you ever compared Gyumuri -Llc (Gyumri + Armenia -Llc) and Leninakan -Llc (Leninakan + Armenia -Llc) ? Do you understand why we didn't request move ? Because of Modern names. Of course, if one name overwhelming other alternative names, I don't hesitate to request. Takabeg (talk) 02:00, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

I did not understand your point. Lenin lived between 1870-1924. I assume if an old soviet nation have a city called leninakan, the name leninakan can not be more than 100 years and it is very possible that the name will be replaced. But we are discussing the name akhtamar which the island almost first called in history as akhtamar and the name is still used as akhtamar.Ali55te (talk) 02:09, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment why is the requested new name camelCased? 76.65.129.5 (talk) 05:02, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Systemic bias

Unfortunately, this article was de-neutralized by User:Ali55te.

Using only article of Dink (Agos), article cannot be neutral. For example, vandalism section, according to another article,

Binlerce kurşun deliğinin yüksek tarhribata uğrattığı cephelerde, defineciler tarafından kimi blok taşların sökülmüş olduğu farkedilmiş.

Treasure hunters became aware of that some block sthones, on the facade which had been highly damaged with thousands of bullet holes, was removed.

We cannot understand who damaged facade, when it was damaged. Maybe during WWI, maybe yesterday. It's clear that block stones was removed.

In short this article is about Zakaria Mildanoğlu's criticism on the way of restoration. Maybe this is also useful.

Takabeg (talk) 15:51, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Damaging a historical building is called vandalism. Please make sense what you want to write about. Ali55te (talk) 16:49, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

In addition Yasar Kemal explains the governments effort to demolish the church what else you want to see ? Ali55te (talk) 16:52, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

• According to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, we have to use third party sources. Articles of Hrant Dink cannot be considered as third party sources.
• Yaşar Kemal was a novelist.

Takabeg (talk) 22:39, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikiepdia says that "This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors" I put the Yasar Kemals testimony from the book of Alain Bosquet. Both of this authors are world wide known authors. The bullet hole information comes from the architecht involved in the restoration process which I can not imagine a more reliable source than that. Secondly I do not put only the article of Hrant dink but the other websites related to architecture from Turkey. By the way how do you claim that Hrant Dink's article or Yaşar Kemal is not reliable ? Yasar kemal is one of the leading and respecetd authors in Turkey and worldwide. I don't feel like to explain Hrant Dink either I think apart from you most of the world knows him. If you want I can add the yasar kemals testimony from turkish newspapers first example http://www.zaman.com.tr/yazar.do?yazino=985573

We don't discuss the definition of the term "vandalism". There are same problems in the article Armenian Cathedral of the Holy Cross. We need neutral sources and neutral wording. Takabeg (talk) 02:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Turkish / Azeri REVISIONISM

As I remember it, Akhtamar Island has always been Akhtamar, not "Akdamar" in Turkish. Whoever requested Akhtamar be changed to "Akdamar" is a biased Turk propagandist. To begin with, *****"en.wikipedia.org"***** means this is the ENGLISH version, not Turkish. Akdamar is a Turkish spelling of the same name, Akhtamar is the accepted convention and MAY NOT BE CHANGED simply because you some Turks "feel like Turkifying Armenian names and places". Secondly, if Akhtamar is named "Akdamar" this creates an inaccuracy and confusion in the English language because Akhtamar and Akdamar are in fact the same, the latter being merely a Turkish spelling. Thirdly, Turkish propagandists have tried this with the 'Turkey' country name before, trying to change Turkey into "Turkiye" in an attempt to distance themselves from a gobbling bird of the same name, and no one accepted it in the English world. We call Turkey as Turkey and not Turkiye, because this is English Wikipedia, not Turkish Wikipedia. Likewise Akhtamar and not "Akdamar" because in all convention, articles and books Akhtamar or its variant 'Aght'amar' has always been used. On English Wikipedia Armenia is called Armenia, not Hayastan. Germany is called Germany, not Deutschland. Italy is called Italy, not Italia, etc etc etc. I am disgusted to see en.wikipedia.org fell hostage to Turkish Wikipedia revisionists. I suppose their next step is to get rid of Ararat from Wikipedia and change it to "Agri Dagi" <-- another Turkish attempt to Turkify an Armenian mountain and name. THIS BEHAVIOR IS UNACCEPTABLE. Thinkfood (talk) 06:12, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

As I am sure you are aware of, Wikipedia is based on co-operation and consensus, not on edit-warring. Your move of this article from "Akdamar Island" to "Akhtamar Island" is not founded on consensus. On the contrary, this move has been suggested twice before, and in both cases the result has been "page not moved".

If you want to, you may start the discussion again and request a move. If you manage to create a consensus this time, then it will be proper to make the move.

In order to create a consensus, it is a good idea to use a civil language and to avoid name-calling, abuse, accusations and SHOUTING. Regards. --79.160.40.10 (talk) 07:20, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It would have been better to make a proposal for a name change (the earlier proposal and result was little more than a joke given only 2 people participated) rather than just doing it. And the talk page is still under the old title. Meowy 10:50, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Supposed Eastern vs Western Armenian spelling difference

There is absolutely no proof that the name of the island is spelled Աղթամար Aghtamar in Eastern and Ախթամար Akhtamar in Western Armenian. On the contrary, I've added Eastern Armenian sources for both spellings. Hovhannes Tumanyan, arguably the best known Eastern Armenian poet, used Akhtamar for the title of his poem. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:54, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I didn't realize poets were historians. There is also no evidence to support YOUR claim. Just because, you say something does not make it fact. Got it? HyeSK (talk) 20:43, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Tumanyan wrote in Eastern Armenian. He used what you claim is the Western Armenian spelling. Do you not see any contradiction here? I've added sources in Eastern Armenian that use both spellings. I dare you add a single reliable source claiming its spelled Aghtamar in Eastern and Akhtamar in Western Armenian. --Երևանցի ^talk 22:27, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

"You dare me". LOL! He was a poet, not a historian, genius. He has artistic license to write as he pleases. His poem proves nothing. Also, let us not forget he went to Nersisian School in Tblisi surrounded by Western-speaking Armenians. Reverting. HyeSK (talk) 15:57, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Tumanyan is not the only source I cited. Try to come up with better arguments. I explictly cited two reputable sources in Eastern Armenian which use Ախթամար Akhtamar. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:04, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

HyeSK, you dismiss a source (which is there to indicate usage) as "a poet, not a historian" - but you do not present ANY source that supports your content change. All you present is your own opinion - an opinion from neither a poet or historian but just some Wikipedia editor. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:39, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• The Church of the Holy Cross on Akhtamar Island.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot (talk) 14:36, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Migrate parts to Cathedral of the Holy Cross, Aghtamar?

The Cathedral of the Holy Cross, Aghtamar has less info about its opening than in the present article of Akdamar Island. Could we agree that we could migrate some of it to the article Cathedral of the Holy Cross, Aghtamar? Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:08, 21 November 2019 (UTC)