Talk:Alex Higgins

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Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Nationality

Resolved

 – Not an issue for this article, but for the entire encyclopedia.

Alex Higgins, as a cistern BRITISH, but because the Irish government confers Irish nationality on anyone born on the island of Ireland, including Northern Ireland, he is also an Irish citizen. "Northern Irish" is NOT a nationality! A "BRITISH CITIZEN" is anyone born anywhere within the United Kingdom of which 4 countries are a part, namely England, Wales, Scotland and Norther Ireland. Similarly, anyone born in Scotland or Wales are NOT "Scottish" or "Welsh" by nationality, they are BRITISH. However, this is slightly different for citizens of Northern Ireland. As already mentioned, they can be either BRITISH or IRISH by nationality, or indeed both, should they so wish. In other words, anyone born in Northern Ireland is a "dual citizen".

You have to elect to be given the second nationality you are entitled to. Whilst not political Higgins is from the unionist tradition and if there is a suggestion that he has Irish nationality it should be referenced. Otherwise he is from Northern Ireland, with a British passport. --194.125.109.86 07:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. There's a strong tradition here (imported from actual British culture's usage) that Northern Irish, Welsh, Scottish and English are indeed nationalities, within the "supranationality" of British. Ranting here on a random article's talk page won't change that consensus. Anyone with a problem with that issue should probably raise it at the Village Pump. The issue affects thousands of articles, not just this one. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 15:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

The Northern Irish snooker players category clearly states Higgins' country - Northern Ireland. And it's a sub-category of Category:Northern Irish people. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 08:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Errors

There are some errors in the article: 1) The score for the 1982 world championship was 18-15, and not 18-16 as listed in the article. 2) In 1976 world championship final, Higgins not conceed early before Reardon had "reached the winning post". Reardon won the frame he needed to win the match 27-16. However, Higgins did conceed several frames early when he could still have techniclaly won them. 3)While it is correct that Higgins was ranked number 2 on two occassions (since the ranking list was created in 1976) it is worth noting that for the 1982 / 1983 list, Higgins had two ranking points deducted for misconduct. Otherwise he would have been ranked number one, based on tournament performance.

The article does not list many of Higgins' tournament victories. I would suggest adding:

• 1972 Irish Professional Champion (beat Rea 28-12)
• 1973 Men of the Midlands (beat Reardon 5-3)
• 1975 Canadian Open (beat Pulam 15-7)
• 1977 Canadian Open (beat Spencer 17-14)
• 1978 Benson and Hedges Masters (beat Thorburn 7-5)
• 1978 Irish Professional Champion (beat Dennis Taylor 21-7)
• 1979 Irish Professional Champion (beat Patsy Fagan 21-13)
• 1979 Tolly Cobbold Classic (beat Reardon 5-4)
• 1980 British Gold Cup (beat Reardon 5-1)
• 1980 Padmore / Super Crysalate International (beat Mans 4-2)
• 1980 Tolly Cobbold Classic (beat Dennis Taylor 5-4)
• 1980 Pontins Professional Championship (beat Dennis Taylor 9-7)
• 1981 Benson and Hedges Masters (beat Griffiths 9-5)
• 1983 Irish Professional Championship (beat Dennis Taylor 16-11)
• 1984 World Doubles Championship (with Jimmy White; beat Thorburn and Thorne 10-2)
• 1985, 1986, 1987 World Team Championship (playing for Ireland)
• 1989 Irish Professional Championship (beat Jack McLaughlin 9-7)
  

Tim Sandle

Hi Tim,

You are correct about the 1982 final: it was def. 18-15 and updated accordingly. As to the 1976 final, I recall seeing Higgins shaking hands with Reardon and hearing the commentator (Ted Lowe or Jack Karnehm) say in total surprise that he had conceded the frame in progress (and the match) early although not entitled to do so [those words ring fairly clear]. It's also my understanding that the final session of that match (in Manchester) was not played. Can you check your sources and post a reply?

Unfortunately many of Alex's victories were in events that would be regarded a mickey-mouse today. True, those were all that were available but I think only his two B&H Master's titles stand the test of time and should be added to his article. I've a feeling that he also won one or two other major tournaments and will check this out. Patrick

Patrick, As can be seen, Alex beat Ray Reardon in 3 different finals, Reardon is a multi world champion. He also beat Spencer and Taylor in other finals. Surely the standards of these competitions were high with this level of finalists. Competitions became more prominent in the 80's with no small part due to Alex so its unfair that he is not added these titles. You might give them a seperate description, but if I beat Rerdon in a final I would be very aggrieved if my name was not there.

Higgins reached the 1994 Worldchampionship first round http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_World_Snooker_Championship and his determination to get back the cruciable at that stage of his career deserves mention and inclusion in his record section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.203.254.1 (talk) 09:07, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Flag

Resolved

 – Not an issue for this article, but for all bio articles.

Hi, I propose to save space by removing the NI flag. Alex's picture is there already and a flag doesn't need to appear unless a suitable usable photo of the subject can't be provided. Alex is described as from Northern Ireland in the article, which is enough. Patrick.

The photo is gone, but I'm getting the feeling that there is a general consensus around the entire site that bio infoboxes should simply not have pictures until a photo is available, instead of using flags. I've seen many, many flags like that removed and not replaced with anything.

Media links OK?

Resolved

 – Links were removed.

The media links aren't working for me -is it me, or are they dead links? MikesPlant 00:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Mike, media links work ok for me (they open in Real Player). Maybe copy the link location and see if it can be cut and pasted into Real Player or Windows Media Player? Tue. 2 May, 15.49 Patrick

Re: {{tone}}

I'm tagging this particular paragraph:

His unorthodox brilliance is best encapsulated in his break of 69 against White in the penultimate frame of their World Professional Snooker Championship semi-final in 1982. Experts and players continue to cite it as one of the greatest ever breaks under pressure. Higgins was 0-59 down in that frame and probably one ball away from going out, but managed to compile a clearance that almost defied belief. He was scarcely in position until he came to the colours. In particular, one pot will live long in the memory: a three-quarter-ball blue into the green pocket with the cue-ball screwed off the side cushion towards the top cushion. Dennis Taylor considers that the shot could be played 100 times without coming close to the position Higgins reached with cue-ball (he actually went much too far for good position on his next red).

Its language isn't formal enough (actually, it's not formal at all), it is POV, and at the very least it should be presented as a third-party's opinion, and should be sourced.

1. Who decided that Higgins' "unorthodox brilliance is best encapsulated in his break of 69 against White in the penultimate frame of their World Professional Snooker Championship semi-final in 1982"?
2. Who exactly are those "experts and players" who "continue to cite it as one of the greatest ever breaks under pressure"?
3. Who thinks that the clearance that he managed "almost defied belief"?
4. Who thinks that the particular pot described "will live long in the memory"? In whose memory?

I think that the problems are obvious, and that {{tone}} should stay. ---Vladimir V. Korablin (talk) 09:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted your edit and explained why on your talk page bigpad 18:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, I won't revert it back, to avoid engaging in an edit war, but you seem to be missing the point. It's not about whose knowledge of snooker is deeper (I'm pretty sure yours is), it's about how the articles must be written. My comments are not pedantic; they are based on official policies and guidelines of the English Wikipedia. See WP:V and WP:RS.---Vladimir V. Korablin (talk) 06:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

VladimirKorablin is right, on every single point. This entire article, like so many of them on this topic, is riddled with POV aggrandizements, unsourced claims of what "everyone" or "most people" think, unverified assertions of fact, uncited quotes, etc., etc. It reads like a magazine piece. Rather than slap {{Magazine}} on it, I've inline-tagged some of the problems (just in that paragraph; I could do that with the entire article, but that would make an unreadable mess of it, and might be considered a WP:POINT. I think the real point should get across with the minimal tagging I've done so far. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi there, that paragraph has been edited but some of your insertions need explaining. You will see that I have said "arguably brilliant". If use of "arguable" is prohibited in Wiki, we're all done for. It was brilliant, since commentators then and since described it as such, even if these comments are often in video format. Patrick bigpad 14:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Understood; I've explained them with HTML comments and links to the relevant policies and guidelines. To summarize here: "arguably brilliant" means that someone has sourceably made that argument (otherwise it is forbidden "original research", i.e. a Wikipedian simply asserting this because he/she has personally found it to be true but can't demonstrate it with sources: WP:NOR). Wikipedia is not in a position to label him brilliant (WP:NPOV), and if we present the alleged fact that he has been labelled brilliant by third parties, that fact needs to be reliably (WP:RS) sourced (WP:V/WP:CS), just like any other fact. The apparent fact that commentators then and since have said this or that also needs to be sourced (this can probably best be done with snooker magazines and reliable websites on the topic, unless you've recorded broadcasts and can cite them as to date and other details), again just like any other asserted fact. Wikipedia isn't "done for" if we can't say aggrandizing things about players without sources. See Irving Crane (a Good Article) and Walter Lindrum (which just missed G.A. status because most of its source citations are general and at the end instead of inline and citing specific facts). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Pot on blue ball on 69 break

I edited the text to correct the side spin put on the ball. It was actually a load of left-hand side that Higgins used to zip the cue-ball off the cushion. When screwing back with reverse side, it's necessary to strike the cue-ball on the opposite side to the direction you want it to travel after hitting the cushion. Watch the video clip on that frame and have a look. bigpad 17:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I question whether the passage is of any encyclopedic value, frankly. The shot is not described in enough detail to actually envision is, nor is it illustrated some other way. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

As to the shot in question, the description of it is spot on, based on my recollection of it and on having watched it over and over on the video. And the use of "live long in the memory" is illustrated by the revision to insert a colon and then what Dennis Taylor said about it. It was a shot that perhaps no one else could ever do. And in further illustration of how incredible it was, Higgins *did come back too far with the cue-ball to have an easy shot on his next red. That is not POV: it's the case as shown by the video. But if someone good at graphics would be willing to assist me with an image of that shot, I take the point that it would enhance a wider understanding of what happened. Patrick bigpad 14:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

"Based on my recollection of it" is precisely the problem. That is original research, not reliable sourcing. If you have the broadcast taped, and know (or can find out) when it was broadcast, on what network, and other details to do a {{cite}}, then you are probably good to go, if you describe the shot in strictly factual terms without opining about whether it was "good" or "too much" of this or that. There is nothing wrong with citing video sources as long as what you write is neutrally and accurately descriptive and not interpretational; this is how the "Plot synopsis" of all movie and tv articles (and book ones, etc.) are made, after all. The problem with the memory passage is that you are asserting a "should" personal opinion, which is a WP:NOT and WP:NPOV problem; even asserting that it is memorable is, really. There is probably a way to phrase this differently to get around the problem. "Notable" seems to be a catch-all WP dodge for this POV problem, but people may challenge it if it not sourced as notable (if a snooker magazine or article on a snooker site mentioned the shot, that would establish that it was in fact notable.) What Denis Taylor said about it: There needs to actually be a cited quotation from him; the reader has no way to verify that what the article says he said is what he actually said, if we just assert that he said something and don't even quote it but just paraphrase it. Come back too far: "Too" is POV; it's a value judgement. Even if we could let that slide (perhaps as "farther than would have been ideal", without "too"), again we have a WP:V/WP:NOR problem: Your analysis is your own, not a sourced one from a third party (it is a "novel synthesis" in WP:NOR terms). I.e. the issue isn't that it didn't happen, it simply about whether the reader can verify that it happened, and that WP isn't putting editors' own value judgements on what happened. Image: I agree that would be very helpful: See the freeware "CueTable" tool linked to in the Ext. Links section of the main Cue sport article; I believe it is fairly easy to use to generate shot diagram[me]s, and it does have a snooker option. Hope this helps. It can take a while to get this stuff firmly in one's head. There are many, many edits I've wanted to make to articles, because, dammit, I know for an absolute fact that (whatever) is true, but if I can't source it I just need to make note of it on the talk page and hope that between me and everyone else there a source will be found. These articles aren't going anywhere, and talk pages get archived, not deleted; we have all the time in the world, and at WP's growth rate, it's a near certainty that any important fact will eventually be sourced and added if attention is drawn to the need to add it. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that break, and the blue ball shot in particular are important and worthy of attention. My subjective view is that the blue shot is the defining single moment of Higgins' career. I remember it being discussed in a broadcast by some top players and I think it was John Spencer who said words to the effect that you would have to be mad to even attempt it. That would be a good quote to obtain if anyone can do so. He also commented (I believe tongue-in-cheek) that it was the worst break he had ever seen, as Higgins kept running out of position! Again, I think that's worthy of mention in the context of how the frame is generally assessed.

In terms of a description of the blue shot, I suggest something like this: "Out of position, Higgins had the cue ball in the region between the pack of reds and the blue spot. Unable to find an easy pot on a colour, he was forced to shoot a long blue off its spot into the green pocket, which he did with a high amount of left-hand side. The blue was potted, and the white screwed onto the lefthand cushion above the blue pocket, spinning off the cushion back down the table, coming to rest behind the pack of reds. (Higgins then maintained the break by potting a red almost the length of the table, into the same green pocket.)" -- and I agree a graphic would be useful. 81.96.161.52 17:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the blue ball was exceptional but the wording in the article is clear enough and needs no revision. bigpad 21:33, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

Why was the above introduced? bigpad 08:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

As discussed in user talk, this article (among many other snooker ones, and sports and other fandom articles in general - I dont mean to single this one out especially) is riddled with peacock language and weasel words. It is written like a magazine article not like an encyclopedia article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Earnings

The figure quoted is a bit of a back of an envelope calculation. It certainly is not his career earnings from prize money. There are between 20-25 players who have earned £1 million + by this way. Higgins does not feature on this list. --194.125.109.86 07:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is a press estimate on what he earned through snooker, not his winnings. Text updated accordingly bigpad 22:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there a figure availble anywhere for what he did earn in prize money; I have looked on the internet and can not find one. Allowing for the length of his career and the fact that prize money was quite high for the time compared to now for the latter part of his career it would seem that he must have earned more than £500,000 but less than £1,000,000 but is there an offical figure anywhere? --78.16.207.57 (talk) 17:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I doubt it, in the 70s there was only basically the World Championship and the Masters, and towards the end of the decade the UK Championship that were staged by the WSA. He probably didn't even break £100,000 in recorded prize money in the 70s, but could earn £500 a night playing an exhibition. Betty Logan (talk) 23:40, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Willie Thorne's comment

Higgins' reached four world finals and won two of them. In winning two he is too many minds a better player than John Parrott, Cliff Thorburn, Dennis Taylor, Terry Griffiths and Joe Johnson. He definitely is a better player than Wilie Thorne. It is not appropriate to have an also ran like Thorne given such focus in this article. I propose deleting this quote. --212.2.173.75 21:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I am the same user as above signing in from a different PC. I have removed the Willie Thorne coments for the reasons set out above. If the comments were from another world champion like Stephen Hendry or from a noted journalist like Clive Everton they may well deserve to be in the article. But Thorne has little notability other then as a 'character' due to his appearance. Journeyman player who gave himself the description Mr Maximum for achievements away from tournament play. Reputation as a BBC commentator suffers from the fact he has bet on matches he was covering for BBC. He may not like Higgins and Higgins may not be likeable but his views should not have the focus they did before the edit. Where do you then draw the line: a couple of lines from Mike Hallett and Neal Foulds on what they think on Higgins too. --213.190.141.210 13:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I have reinstated the section about Thorne, as it is *referenced and Thorne, a contemporary of Higgins, won a ranking event in the 80s and reached at least one other final. Your opinion of him as being a journeyman is not relevant. Please do not remove referenced text on the basis on your own POV. The bit about being in four finals is fair enough but I have swapped the order round. bigpad 22:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Where do you draw the line as is set out in the final lines of the comments above. Why focus on Willie Thorne's opinion and not Mike Hallett or Neal Foulds. Yes Thorne won one event- but so what. He doesn't really pass the passage of time as a notable player and has blotted his copy book as a commentator. If it was Clive Everton or Steve Davis but it really is out of place in this article.

Willie Thorne is a former top player and a commentator. He was also a contemporary of Higgins and is an authority on players from that era and today. Personally, I think his comments about Alex in that book are motivated by jealousy, Higgins being a far better all-round player than Thorne ever was. But you simply cannot ignore a referenced work by someone who was far from a nobody. Can you give me a referenced opinion on Higgins by Hallett or Foulds that could go into the article? Please do not change again or I will have to refer to an administrator as being in breach of Wiki policy on editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigpad (talk • contribs) 09:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

You have not read the passages above; there was no bald statement that there should be a quote from Neal Foulds or Mike Hallet- there was a statement that if you included a quote from another player who was in the top 16 for part of Higgins' career why stop at Thorne. The mere fact that any one such reference is from a primary source is irrelevant; as Higgins has been a public figure in some shape or form for about 35 years there are no end of such sources that could be used. But all of them can't be used as the article would become excessive in size. You then have to think who you should include and candidates that spring to mind include commentators during Higgins time such as David Vine or Clive Everton. They include Ray Reardon, Cliff Thorburn or John Spencer other players who he beat or lost to him in world finals. They include other players who he was associated with in terms of a sequence of matches such as Terry Griffiths or Steve Davis. They include his former doubles partner Jimmy White. There is no compelling reason to include a comment from Willie Thorne. Above you state that Willie Thorne is a former top player and a commentator, a contemporary of Higgins and is an authority on players. Thorne is not a direct contemporary of Higgins though they did play for some of the same time, nor is he a particular way an authority on players- he has done TV commentary and there are grounds for putting his standing as a commentator at issue and there is no need for me to repeat those in full. Suffice to say the doyen of tv commentatrs Clive Everton does not commentate with Thorne on the same match whilst both are employed by the BBC. You also state that his comments were motivated by jealousy without that idea being ventilated in the article itself. Thorne in short has no particular standing such that his view of a two time world champion and four time finalist needs to be heard. This is not a question of removing negative comments on Higgins'; all of the men listed above have made critical remarks about Higgins. If you feel any bona-fide edit of an article is wrong because you disagree and thereafter want to go to an administrator: go ahead. Others might address the issue in dispute first in a more comprehensive manner: you are giving a minor figure from snooker in the 1980s a prominance in an article on a former world champion that he doesn't merit. --78.16.109.13 (talk) 11:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

All the above is your POV. Open your eyes: that reference is there and is contradicted by the next sentence. What Thorne said is fact, unlike your POV. bigpad (talk) 22:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

You haven't read the passage you respond to once more. There are umpteen references available for comments on Higgins and there is a logical sequence in which to use them. A comment from a former world number 7 is not needed in this article.--78.16.160.173 (talk) 22:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I've restored Thorne's comments. Regardless of whether they belong in the article, it's attributed POV. What was left read:

• Higgins' natural aptitude and cueing ability revolutionised the sport and helped elevate the sport on to the world stage in the 1970s and early 1980s.

That's unattributed POV, and really should be removed. You can't remove attributed POV and leave unattributed POV. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 00:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's fair comment and I have revised the POV stuff in the second sentence bigpad (talk) 11:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Stanton's recent edit is sensible bigpad (talk) 14:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I've made a further edit. While I acknowledge that Thorne may be considered an 'authority' through his extensive work as a commentator it is inappropriate to say he was one of the top players of the 80s. He was a good professional but he only reached number 7 and won one ranking tournament. More that a journeyman, but not a Thorburn, Griffiths, Taylor etc who could be considered "top players of the 80s". Betty Logan (talk) 18:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

It is also worth noting that Thorne never beat Higgins in a major tournament, whereas Higgins beat Thorne in several including twice in the world championship (1982 and 1983) and once in the UK championship (1984). This makes Thorne's comments even less relevant to me. Tim Sandle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.172.126 (talk) 22:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't really see the point of including Thorne's comment, at least not on the Higgins article. Maybe it would better transferred over to the Thorne article? Why not include Ronnie O'Sullivan's comment that Higgins is the "most naturally talented player to ever play the game" or Stephen Hendry's comment "that the game would never have become what it did without Higgins", or Reardon's comment that "Higgins could play shots other players could only dream of". All these players have a much higher stature than Thorne but are not included here. I think the proper thing to do would be to establish a section on the Willie Thorne article to document his views on other players and transfer his comments there.Betty Logan (talk) 00:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

ok, why not add in all these great players' comments after Thorne's, to show that his was the minority view? But don't remove Thorne's comments, as they are referenced, and he had the right to express his view (incorrect as it was).bigpad (talk) 07:53, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

What I don't understand though is why Thorne's comments are in an article about Alex Higgins, rather than in an article about Willie Thorne? It's very poor editorial judgement since Thorne is neither a recognised authority on Alex Higgins nor a player of equal stature. It would be as pointless as including Nigel Bond saying that Hendry wasn't a great player on Hendry's article. You can reference it, but the content is irrelevant to the object of discussion.Betty Logan (talk) 08:13, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more with previous contributor, The Thorne comment should be taken out. Phil6875 (talk) 13:59, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Flag icon

Please stop adding the Ulster Banner to the infobox. There is a broad consensus that this is a dreadful idea. Use of the Ulster Banner implies a Loyalist political stance that the bio article subject may not have, and the flag has not been official for many years, being used only as a partisan symbol today, with the sole exception that some sports bodies continue to use it, ostensibly apolitically. But infoboxes even of sportspeople are not sports results tables, they are summaries of facts of an article subject as a human being. It is appropriate to use {{flag|NIR}} in tables of snooker tournament stats next to Higgins's name, but not in his infobox. Similar political issues arise with the use of the Union Jack (which is presently the only official flag N.Ir. is subject to) to represent N.Ir. Until N.Ir. gets a new flag, N.Ir. people get no flag icons at all in their infoboxes. For background (and to participate in the debate if you like) see Wikipedia talk:Don't overuse flags, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Flag Template#Northern Ireland, Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland, Talk:Northern Ireland. Continued editwarring to force the use of the U.B. in N.Ir. bio infoboxes is transgressive of WP:NPOV, and simply gives ammunition to those would like to TfD the flag icons altogether, or at very least effectively ban them all from infoboxes. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 15:27, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Please stop removing the Northern Ireland flag. This article is about a sports personality from Northern Ireland who competed in his sport at a professional level, representing Northern Ireland.

There is no consensus that suggests this is a "dreadful idea", as you put it.

Usage of the flag of Northern Ireland does not imply "a Loyalist political stance", and you are clearly showing an ignorance of the subject if you believe that you are correct: that Loyalists have and do use the flag is of no concern of mine.

The flag's "official" status (by "official" perhaps you are referring to its use by the former Northern Ireland government..?) is irrelevant. The symbol is no more, or less, partisan than the flag of any other country.

As I keep pointing out to you, the flag icons remain in the infoboxes of Higgins' peers.

Until Northern Ireland aquires a new flag, the current, and only, flag of Northern Ireland shall remain the flag that represents Northern Ireland uniquely. For reference, please see Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland, Talk:Northern Ireland. Might I also respectfully suggest you read a decent, balanced book on the subject of Northern Ireland so that you do not continue to insult me.

Continued edit-warring to force the absence of the Northern Ireland flag, in direct contrast to and conflict with, a precedence that has been set with similar articles (see Steve Davis, Ronnie O'Sullivan, Jimmy White, Willie Thorne, Ray Reardon, Terry Griffiths etc for examples) in Northern Irish bio infoboxes is transgressive of WP:NPOV. --Mal 03:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Guys, This is a difficult one, right enough, and the solution or deadlock won't please everyone. On the Dennis Taylor talk page I proposed removing the NI flag as Denis' picture is there and that the flag only need appear if a suitable usable picture of the subject/person can't be provided. Why this was not done with snooker stars from other countries in the UK, I don't know. IMHO, it's not necessary for the Steve Davis article to show both his picture, the St George's Cross and have him described (*correctly) as English!

I thought that idea of mine would help us avoid the type of political questions that were starting to appear on the Taylor talk page. My "suggestion" seems to have been accepted, but perhaps only by accident.

Is it applicable to this article? No suitable pic. of Alex has been found, so IMHO it is not inappropriate to use the flag of Northern Ireland. And the flag in question was the official flag of the government of NI which ruled here from 1921-72. It is also true that many people from a nationalist background never recognised this flag and/or were uncomfortable with it. However, Alex Higgins is an ambassador for NI (albeit one who brings embarrassment to this part of the world on occasions), as well as for Ireland. He never denies his Irishness. Still, as he is primarily an Ulsterman (and I use that word carefully) and from NI, the NI flag seems most appropriate to me. As someone who would probably be perceived as a northern nationalist, I have no objection to that flag appearing in lieu of Alex's picture. I have no axe to grind here: I am primarily an editor and would like this empasse removed if possible. All the best, bigpad 23:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

What happened to the consensus? [1], this has gone on long enough. There is no official Flag!--Domer48 12:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a completely dead issue. See the HTML comment about this in the infobox (as of this edit and many others before it that Setanta747 (talk · contribs) keeps reverting with a nonsensical replacement that goes on and on about not putting the UK flag in there, which no one has done in many months, and which perpetually dredges up Steve Davis, et al., utterly missing the point) — see the pages mentioned in that HTML comment. This issue has been debated for months (with regard to flagicons, and for years with regard to the highly-politicized Ulster Banner more generally on Wikipedia), and there is an overwhelming consensus at all of these locations that this sort of usage, to indicate nationality, should not be done. Setanta and a handful of other holdouts continue to editwar over it, but this doesn't change the fact that consensus has been communally reached on this matter already. See also User talk:Setanta747 for a virtual Mt. Everest of evidence that this user does very little but editwar over Northern Ireland issues. This is basically just trolling and blatant disruption and if it happens again, I'll take the matter to the Admin Noticeboard, which perhaps I should have done two months ago anyway. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Sixteen red break

Resolved

 – Text was clarified and no comment since 2007.

The text says he compiled a 16-red break, but goes on to list 17 colours. Surely a 16-red clearance would consist of either 16 or 22 colours, as the initial "red" doesn't count as a colour? BeL1EveR 15:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

It does make 'sense', actually: 16 reds requires 16 colours + the last six colours (once each) = 17 colours! bigpad 08:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

No it doesn't make sense. The final series of colours yellow to black is irrelevant. The first ball is not classed as a colour as it has a value of 1 point, and so it should not be counted. You have 16 one-point balls, each potted with a single colour to follow, which means 16 colours (then the other six). The article specifically lists "1 brown, 1 green, 5 pinks and 10 blacks" - which is 17, and would therefore require 17 reds. It needs correcting. 81.96.161.52 17:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Having revisited the source of this info, it is clear that they always cite the first 'red' in their description of the break. In this case it is clear that the first two balls were brown (1 point); green (3 points); then reds and colours as normal. Consequently I have clarified the wording. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MegdalePlace (talk • contribs) 18:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Cancer

Sources say he had the disease for more than a decade? Seems like he kept it in remission for a very long time. Was it cancer that caused his passing then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.19.161 (talk) 19:14, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

More than likely, I bumped into him a few weeks ago and he looked a very ill man indeed. But as for cause of death until there is something to reference that as the cause we can't say that in the article and I doubt that will be confirmed until after an autopsy. --Wintonian (talk) 19:42, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

It was in remission for years. However, during the past couple of years he lost a huge amount of weight and aged very rapidly. This strongly indicates that his cancer grew and spread, causing his death. Jim Michael (talk) 13:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Crud seeping in

Can we keep a close eye on this please. Already there is a paragraph saying he was addicted to cocaine (whereas the source merely states he admitted using it) and that he died from cancer (the source doesn't say that, and comments he had recently suffered from pneumonia), so can we please make sure we stick to the facts please. Betty Logan (talk) 22:54, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

The BBC source cited in the lead states he died of throat cancer. That is what this article should state, unless there are other reliable sources giving another cause of death for him. He was hospitalised with pneumonia in April this year, but there is no evidence so far that it had anything to do with his death. Jim Michael (talk) 13:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

While much of what is written in the third para. of the intro. is correct, it needs referencing. For example, a journalist is cited as an authority of Higgins having been an alcoholic. I accpet that alcohol played a big (and terrible) part in his life but how does that person know he was an alcoholic? Did Higgins ever admit it or was it diagnosed? bigpad (talk) 20:29, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm still not completely happy about the cause of death. The current reference says he did die of throat cancer, but how would they know this without an autopsy. As far as I am aware Higgins was in remission and Jimmy White alluded to the fact that malnutrition was the cause. It seems to me some of the sources have made quite a few assumptions, and we need to be careful to separate opinion from fact. Betty Logan (talk) 20:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

A fair point so I've modified the last line of that paragraph a little to mention the cancer but not attribute death definitively to it until it's confirmed. bigpad (talk) 22:16, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

The intro reads better now. "Heavy binge drinking" was not only tautology but incorrect. If you knew Alex, it wasn't that he drank for hours and hours but that he drank a fair bit relatively quickly and then ofen got into rows. bigpad (talk) 09:52, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Photo

Please can we find a valid photo of Alex in his prime. At the moment there's an old b&w one when he was a boy, and one from when he racked by cancer. Earthlyreason (talk) 02:19, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

In relation to the two images used I feel both are inappropriate, one included Dennis Taylor whom Higgins disliked and Taylor is the dominant figure within that picture, the second shows a very weak and sick looking Alex, this should be replaced with one of him in his prime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.95.170.99 (talk) 10:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is no other image about him uploaded. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 20:57, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Can the Dennis Taylor image be removed? Its completely inappropriate as Higgins did not like him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.95.170.99 (talk) 14:16, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

What Dennis Taylor image? David Taylor is on the picture. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 20:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Bad mistake on my behalf, it is indeed David Taylor, however I still feel a more suitable image should be uploaded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.95.170.99 (talk) 08:31, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Please can you add a pic of Alex in his prime and not the pic of him now where he was a shadow of his former self there when he was ill. It's very disrespectful Margeh75 (talk) 14:42, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Boy in coma story

There is no authentication for this statement : in 1983 Higgins helped a young boy from the Manchester area, a fan of his, who had been in a coma for two months. His parents were growing desperate and wrote to Higgins. He recorded his voice on a tape and sent it to the boy with his best wishes. He later visited the boy in hospital, unannounced, and promised that if the boy recovered they would play snooker together. True to his word, once the boy was out, the match was held.[22]

The reference [22] is just what Alex Higgins says.

We all know the smell of urban legends surely. Unless more authoritative statements are provided, I intend to delete this sentence around the second week of Aug. 2010.

BTW, in recognition of my own misspent youth I was a huge fan of Alex Higgins - but this is a wiki not a "In Memoriam". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.129.49.210 (talk) 08:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

This story can be sourced here:
Foley, M. 2010. Snooker: Alex Higgins 1949–2010. The Sunday Times, 25 July. Section 2, Sport, p.7.

The article is online at http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/sport/more_sport/article353712.ece but a subscription is required to access it. Betty Logan (talk) 13:57, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I checked citation #37. That's a full blown vid with the young boy, his parents, the actual tape recording, vid of them playing snooker. I'm now persuaded that the story is real and so will not be deleting that sentence nor even diluting it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.129.49.210 (talk) 21:51, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Children

He had two children by his second wife there seems to be no dispute about that. After that it becomes a little more problematic. In his last autobiography, the one ghosted by Sean Boru, he half denies being the father of his first wife's daughter. They would get on, row and spend time apart sometimes one would be in the UK and the other in Australia. He states by inference that neither were faithful to the other and that at around the time the first wife became pregnant he had not shared a bed with her for months. This is all plausible and can't be set at naught by one Daily Mail article which is now not at risk of being held up for review in a defemation action. It seems probable that he hit his first wife, who may have come from a monied background and there is a reference in the Telegraph obit to him saying something like we had a nice 5 years and her saying he was mad and hit me. So did she decide to keep her life in Australia, raise her daughter on her own and as she was from a monied background could cut him out of her life? If the latter there may not have been a blood test and Higgin's half denial may not be contradicted by scientific evidence. Likewise it seems that 6 years ago someone sold a story to the News of the World saying that they had had Alex Higgins' son in 1975 and/or maybe the story was from the son himself. There is no link to the story but the Daily Mail article seems to be based in part on the News of the World story. However what was Higgins' response in 2004 ? The mere fact that people say that Higgins was their dad or father of their child doesn't make it true. The fact that he is now dead and can't sue also doesn't change the fact that these things have to be stood up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.107.21.151 (talk) 08:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

There is an article in the Irish Independent today by Sam Smyth who recalls Higgins getting a letter on the day of the 1972 final from a girl in Belfast saying he was the father of her child. Maybe there is a 5th or indeed 6th child out there ? --109.78.96.177 (talk) 15:48, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Legally he is the father of three children so that is what the article should go with. It's irrelevant who he biologically fathererd, if his name is on the certificate he's the father; if he's not then he isn't unless it is legally challenged. Betty Logan (talk) 16:00, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Legally he seems to have been the father of two children. He half deniend being the father of his first wife's daughter. If you search the internet you can not find anything that shows Cara Hasler or her daughter talking about Higgins- so can't say whether there was or wasn't a blood test. Again accept that there was a story in 2004 about a 'secret' son- but there is no link to it and no record available as yet of what if any response there was by Higgins. You imagine from 1975 onwards for about 10 years he was married and maybe didn't want to admit to his wifes that he had fathered children out of wedlock and from 1990 he was a bankrupt so wanted to protect his financial position. Disagree that it is irrlevant who he biologically fathered. Sure there is a reference on Ronnie O'Sullivan's first child on his profile with whom he has no real relationship. --109.78.96.177 (talk) 22:03, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Ronnie O'Sullivan was forced to have a paternity test after denying his love child, and now has to financially support it. Cara's daughter was born within the marriage so presumably his name will be on the birth certificate since he would have to take legal action to have it removed, which is unlikely. The later claims are hearsay at best. Betty Logan (talk) 22:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The last part of this is all speculation- unless you are being modest about your qualifications in mid 1970s Australian family law. There is just no online interview available anywhere with the now 65 year old Cara Hasler or with her mid 30s daughter- try it: search online and try and find one. Unless they break silence in the next week or two it seems in this case safe to speculate and say that they want to live a private life. Higgins effectively denied being the father of Cara's daughter. He said by inference that they both slept with different people during the marriage and were often 1000s of miles apart. --109.78.96.177 (talk) 00:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

If it's true, than you should provide a reliable source in which Higgins makes this statement. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 00:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Even if she is someone else's biologically, the fact that she was born within wedlock makes him the legal father. Ultimately his two marriages produced three children regardless of the biological paternity. Betty Logan (talk) 00:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

In answer to Armbust- In his last autobiography, the one ghosted by Sean Boru. Secondly the suggestion that 'the fact that she was born within wedlock makes him the legal father' is again a purported interpretation of mid 1970s Australian law without any obvious source or qualification to do so. --109.78.96.177 (talk) 05:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

This is not at present suitable for inclusion on the main wikipedia entry but worth a mention on discussion page. Allegation that he fathered potentially his 5th and 6th children. See- http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3074796/Higgins-secret-son-and-sis.html. --109.76.66.46 (talk) 07:59, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Charity work

There is a reference on the main page which says something like not normally known for his charitable work. In the huge amount of press coverage that followed his death I read a quote from Len Ganly the former referee who in fact suggested that Higgins did considerbale charitable work but without publicity. I will try and find a link. --109.76.66.46 (talk) 07:59, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Performance timeline

If anyone wants to add to this, this is Alex's record

Extended content

Masters 1975 - Quarter-Finalist 1976 - 2nd Round 1977 - Semi-Finalist 1978 - WINNER 1979 - Finalist 1980 - Finalist 1981 - WINNER 1982 - Semi-Finalist 1983 - Semi-Finalist 1984 - Quarter-Finalist 1985 - Quarter-Finalist 1986 - 1st Round 1987 - Finalist 1988 - 2nd Round Professional Players Tournament - Grand Prix 1982 - 2nd Round 1983 - 1st Round 1984 - 2nd Round 1985 - 5th Round 1986 - 5th Round 1988 - Finalist UK Championship 1977 - Semi-Finalist 1978 - Semi-Finalist 1979 - Quarter-Finalist 1980 - Finalist 1981 - Quarter-Finalist 1982 - Finalist 1983 - WINNER 1984 - Finalist 1985 - 5th Round 1986 - Semi-Finalist 1987 - 5th Round 1988 - 4th Round 1994 - 1st Round NORWICH UNION OPEN 1974 - 1st Round 1975 - Semi-Finalist Scottish Masters 1981 - Semi-Finalist 1982 - Finalist 1983 - Semi-Finalist 1984 - Semi-Finalist 1985 - 1st Round 1986 - Finalist 1987 - 1st Round INTERNATIONAL OPEN 1981 - Semi-Finalist 1982 - 2nd Round 1983 - 1st Round 1984 - Quarter-Finalist CLASSIC 1982 - Semi-Finalist 1984 - 1st Round 1985 - 2nd Round 1986 - Quarter-Finalist 1987 - 4th Round 1988 - 4th Round 1989 - 4th Round BRITISH OPEN 1980 - WINNER 1985 - Semi-Finalist 1986 - Semi-Finalist 1987 - 3rd Round 1988 - 3rd Round 1989 - 4th Round 1990 - Finalist GOYA MATCHROOM TROPHY 1985 - 5th Round KIT KAT Semi-Finalist BCE BELGIAN CLASSIC 1986 Semi-Finalist BCE INTERNATIONAL 4th Round BCE CANADIAN MASTERS 1986 - 1st Round 1988 - 3rd Round FIDELITY INTERNATIONAL 1988 - 3rd Round EUROPEAN OPEN 1989 - 4th Round INTERNATIONAL OPEN 1994- 1st Round Irish Masters: 1983 - semi-final 1984 - semi-final 1985 - finalist 1986 - 1st Round 1987 - 1st Round 1988 - semi-final 1989 - WINNER 1990 - quarter-final

Original Source: http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=21307&highlight=wikipedia+alex+higgins#ixzz16IznwWx5 TSF - TheSnookerForum.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.165.165.178 (talk) 14:43, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid that some of this information is wrong--Якушев Илья (talk) 14:04, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

And by the way the Snooker Forum is not a reliable source either. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 02:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

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Pool

I'm pretty sure he played high profile pool in the USA. I've seen film of him playing with Jimmy White against top American players. Can anyone add something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.157.136.54 (talk) 00:34, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

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So near yet...

Pymgate Lodge Hotel, Styal Road, Gatley. Rumour abounded at the time (late 80's early 90's) that 'The Hurricane' was a permanent guest / resident of this pleasant little hotel. An obituary in the Guardian http://theguardian.com/sport/2010/jul/26/alex-higgins-genius-snooker would appear to confirm this. Oneself never clapped eyes on him ever - despite living in the vicinity of at least two of his abodes (he lived in Cheadle, Greater Manchester at the time of his '82 World Championship Win). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.248.127 (talk) 22:35, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

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Cause of death

His daughter was wrong. Throat cancer was the primary cause of his death. (86.147.59.139 (talk) 17:45, 18 September 2020 (UTC))

Docus

A new article about Higgins (I would call this writer a subject-matter expert when it comes to cue-sports media):

• Moss, Jason (6 May 2024). "Alex Higgins: Life on Screen". 8 Ball on the Silver Screen.

The upshot is that there have been at least seven film/TV documentary productions about Higgins, from 1972 to 2010, and they are catalogued here, with fairly detailed reviews for the works that have proven accessible.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)