Talk:Algeria/Archive 5

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Ethnic groups Algeria

@M.Bitton , @Skitash the source provided on Ethnic groups [4] mentions Arab-Amazigh 99% and European Descent 1%. there is no mention of 85% and 15% numbers. please proceed to fact check this source. then make the appropriate changes Potymkin (talk) 09:07, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Did you read the note under "Arab-Amazigh 99%, European less than 1%"? Skitash (talk) 11:25, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Note : "although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab, only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population; these people live mostly in the mountainous region of Kabylie east of Algiers and in several other communities; the Amazigh are also Muslim but identify with their Amazigh rather than Arab cultural heritage; some Amazigh have long agitated, sometimes violently, for autonomy; the government is unlikely to grant autonomy but has officially recognized Amazigh languages and introduced them into public schools".

the source mentions that Almost ALL algerians are Amazigh in origin and not arab, the number 85% Arab provided is considered original research by wikipedia.

the Ethnic composition of Algeria should state one of the following :

- Arab-Amazigh (99%) | Primarily Amazigh (15%) | European (less than 1%)

- Arab Amazigh 99%, (of which15% identify as Primarily Amazigh) | European (less than 1%)

the conclusion reached that Algerians are 85% arab is not included in the source provided.

Let me know which version of suggestions you prefer @Skitash & @M.Bitton Potymkin (talk) 11:46, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

If the source groups both Arabs and Berbers into a single 99% figure and specifies that only "about 15%" of those identify as Berber, what do you think the remaining 84% identifies as? Reliable sources consistently indicate that the Arab percentage ranges from 75% to 80% to 85%. Nothing more, nothing less. Skitash (talk) 11:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

do not ignore the part of the source that says "although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab" I think it is not up to you to claim the opposite and make up numbers such as 85%.

please choose one of the revisions from the source. otherwise change the source all together to a more reliable one. Potymkin (talk) 12:00, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

"I think it is not up to you to claim the opposite and make up numbers such as 85%." I think you need to understand what ethnic identity is. Skitash (talk) 12:07, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

due to the uncivil manner the conversation has come down to, I have taken the necessary wikipedia protocol to open a dispute resolution case on the matter with a third party. you have been informed. Potymkin (talk) 12:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree the source clearly says 99% Arab-Berber 1% Europeans.15% of them actually feel Amazigh.

Everything else is original work (WP:NOR) and personal deduction that the 85% must be Arab. Other sources give different categories (Arabized Berbers) etc... Monsieur Patillo (talk) 20:12, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

- Arab Amazigh 99%, (of which15% identify as Primarily Amazigh) | European (less than 1%)

is the reproduction of the figures given faithfully and without personnal interpretation Monsieur Patillo (talk) 20:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

We need to remove ethnic origins stuff in the lead as with other random stats..... Best to follow the example of our FA and GA articles... WP:COUNTRYLEAD. Will cleanup lead once you guys have figured all this out. Moxy🍁 20:22, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree, We need to remove ethnic origins stuff in the lead as with other random stats. Potymkin (talk) 21:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@Moxy I hope when you are able you can immediately proceed to remove the Ethnic stats and other random information for good , this will keep things clean and without issues for all parties involved. this is in fact a great suggestion from your part and you have my absolute vote on this suggestion ! Potymkin (talk) 22:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I will take a look ...but in my view it's not just a matter of some removal but a whole rewrite. Let's also ping @Nikkimaria:.....she the master of country lead cleanups and maintains many of our FA and GA country articles. Sorry Nikkimaria.... I'm always calling on you for things of this nature. That said will take a look tomorrow perhaps. Moxy🍁 22:12, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@Moxy no problem take your time to have a look into the matter, thank you for this great suggestion. Potymkin (talk) 22:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I've asked to lock this page up to prevent more edit wars and subsequent blocks of editors.... revision may have to be done here prior to implementation. Moxy🍁 22:36, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm agree too with Moxy proposal. and first discuss acceptable sources and writing. apart from the figures, it is also necessary to explain the categories so as not to mislead the reader. For example Britanica explains: « Arab invasions in the 8th and 11th centuries brought only limited numbers of new people to the region but resulted in the extensive Arabization and Islamization of the indigenous Amazigh population. ». Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:12, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I've taken a stab at reorganizing the lead; generally as Moxy indicates detailed stats should be discussed in the body. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:17, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria There's an ongoing discussion at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Algeria. Please consider leaving the lead as it is until the discussion is over per WP:STATUSQUO. Skitash (talk) 10:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria Thank you for taking steps to further improve the algeria talk page, I hope you get to remove the ethnicity stat and other useless stats from the Algeria article as @Moxy suggested. I greatly appreciate both of your inputs on the matter and your action to further improve wikipedia articles and keep them free of ambiguity. Potymkin (talk) 22:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

All for not...O well. Page editors should realy try to take the advice of longtime FA and GA writers. Moxy🍁 12:04, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Berber, Amazigh, or Tamazight

In this edit, Kurdish Elf made the following change to the Infobox official language list:

−

| official_languages = {{Plainlist| * [[Modern Standard Arabic|Arabic]] * [[Standard Algerian Berber|Berber]] }}

+

| official_languages = {{Plainlist| * [[Modern Standard Arabic|Arabic]] * [[Standard Algerian Berber|Tamazight]] }}

without any sourcing, and with the edit summary, Changed "Berber" to "Tamazight" since Berber is not an official language, but a family of languages that do not necessarily have any official status. In general, no discussion is required to undo an unsourced change (and an inaccurate one) but given that language has repeatedly been the object of dispute in the article and on this page, I thought I'd poll the community first.

I have several problems with this change. First, it is unsourced, and bucks long practice here. Second, the change in the piped link violates WP:ASTONISH, as it doesn't go to where one would expect. Third, this is English Wikipedia, and the Infobox should use terms found in English sources, and Tamazight is a redirect to our article named "Berber languages", and the term Berber (and Berber language) is much better understood in English than Tamazight (and Tamazight language). For example, in 2016, the BBC noted that Berber was named as an official language in the Constitution, using the term Berber seven times in the article, and explaining (once) that is "known locally as Amazigh".^[1]

Additionally, Berber (as KE pointed out) is a family of languages including the one spoken in Algeria, but the term Tamazight also refers to the Moroccan variety, and in some source, primarily the Moroccan variety, although it is used for varieties in both countries. And also, the link target of Standard Algerian Berber refers to "Kabyle" and not just to "Tamazight", so the piping is not only astonishing, it is mistaken.

Finally, I'm not sure how far back "Berber" has been listed in the Infobox as an official language (because wikiblame is down), but it goes back at least eight years. This unilateral, unsourced change to the Infobox language list is problematic for all of the reasons given, and should be reverted. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 02:12, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Source: Official Gazette of Algeria & Constitution HERE (Page 6, Article 4).

(Unless you wish to keep interfering with Wikipedia editing POINT, there is nothing more reliable than that.) -- 105.235.133.225 (talk) 04:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

IP 105, I am afraid you are very much mistaken, at least with respect to English Wikipedia. You may be 100% right that the official Constitution you linked to, written entirely in French, shows what word would be proper to use in French Wikipedia for the name of the language. (And if you look at the Infobox in the French Wikipedia article fr:Algérie you will see that is exactly what they do.)

But this is not French Wikipedia, this is English Wikipedia, and here we use the most common English name for all languages. That is why the Infobox here says Arabic, and not arabe, al-Arabiya or اَلْعَرَبِيَّةُ, and it is also why one of the foreign languages in the Infobox is listed as French, and not as français, or اللغة الفرنسية. So the official name of the language in this Constitution, written in French, has absolutely nothing to do with what it should be called in the Infobox in this article in English Wikipedia, which depends entirely on what it is called in the majority of reliable sources written in English, and that, imho, is Berber, unless you can provide evidence that a majority of English language sources call it something else.

And finally: the irony of you attempting to use an Algerian Constitution written in French in order to prove a point about an English word, especially given the history of this Talk page, is, well... I lack the words. Mathglot (talk) 06:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

No, and it's not "may"; I am entirely accurate.

Tamazight is written exactly the same in both French and English. The spelling of Tamazight is identical to that of Arabic.

Articles from Wikipedia should not be cited as sources. WINRS.

Unless you want the Algerian government to draft a constitution in every language, I'm not sure what to tell you.

However, here's an additional source: HERE. 'n' HERE -- 105.235.131.52 (talk) 16:01, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid you have missed the point. The question is not, "How do sources in English spell the word Tamazight ?" (And it is certainly not about French.) The question is, "What do English language sources call the language that is the most most widely spoken native language in Algeria after Arabic?" Is that language most often called "Berber", "Amazigh", or "Tamazight" in English sources? That is the only question at issue here.

You can find all three of them in English sources if you search specifically for them, but they skew heavily to "Berber". The words Amazigh and Tamazight are both gaining ground on Berber, but both are far behind, with "Berber" about four times as common as "Amazigh" and 16 times as common as "Tamazight". (You can also try comparing usage in academic journals here, with similar results.) If you wait long enough, it is possible that frequency of use of these terms in English sources will shift over time, and some other word will be most popular, and we can look at this question again then. For the time being, the only possible choice based on actual usage in English is the word Berber, and you are wasting your time listing cherrypicked sources. Mathglot (talk) 06:00, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

the designation Berber from the origin "Beraberata" an amazigh tribe found inscribed king scorpion's statue in Egypt was used in reference to Berber (Amazigh people) .

Tamazigh is the correct word to refer to Berber speaking people in their native language, many linguists suggest using this variation for its grammatically correct properties to refer to Amazigh People.

the Algerian constitution defines "Amazighness" as "fundemental component" of the algerian identity -refer to the algerian constitution-, and since the publication of the version of the Algerian Constitution in Tamazigh from the University of Bouira both the words Amazigh and Tamazigh can be accepted as an alternate more correct version to the given name berber only concerning algeria however. Potymkin (talk) 19:17, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

It is important to understand that the content of the Algerian Constitution and other official documents have no influence on what the languages are called in English Wikipedia; that role is reserved to the most common name in reliable English sources. That this is true, can be seen in these examples:

• our article on the language of France is called "French (language)" (not "Français"), and the official language of France is listed as "French" in the Infobox at France, even though it is not called that in the French Constitution (Article 2), where it is listed as "français";
• our article on the language of Spain is called "Spanish (language)", and the official language of Spain is listed as "Spanish" in the Infobox at Spain, even though it is not called that in the Spanish Constitution (Article 3), where it is listed as "castellano";
• our article on the first language of Finland is called "Finnish (language)", and the official languages of Finland are listed as "Finnish" and "Swedish" in the Infobox at Finland, even though they are not called that in the Finnish Constitution (Section 17), where they are listed as "suomi" and "ruotsi" (and as "finska" and "svenska" in the co-official Swedish version).

That said, it is perfectly all right to list alternate names of the language like Amazigh or Tamazight in the body of the article in a section that goes into detail on local languages, just like the word castellano appears in the #Languages section of the Spain article. (Interestingly, the endonym suomi does not appear in the #Language section of the Finland article, and français does not appear in the #Language section of the France article, either, although they could be.) For example, the last paragraph of your comment, with the addition of citations, could be added to that section. But it is way too long to add to a single Infobox entry, which should remain the way it is, as long as the majority of English sources refer to it that way. Mathglot (talk) 20:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

First of all don't worry about my time, I spend it as I want as you are spending it as you want so let's stick to the topic and refrain from making any escalations that leads to PA. What aspect of "Tamazight the same in both French and Arabic" is unclear to you? Why does Algeria in French not have the same spelling as al-jazair in Arabic? But is Tamazight the same as Arabic in this regard? This is a POV pushing that is clearly and seriously disruptive, I blame the administrators for not enforcing the policies, not you. Your argument is that the names of the languages in the English Wikipedia are not influenced by the Algerian Constitution or other official documents. This would be the case if the Arabic and French constitutions used different names, such as تمازيغت (Article 4) and Tamazight, respectively. YES, English uses incorrect names, and many nations, like India (That wants to change it to Bharat), are campaigning about it; you are just pushing your point. I've included the precise source, which claims that the term "berber" is used incorrectly, and while it is indeed frequently used, Wikipedia only documents information based on trustworthy sources; The amount of sources does mean anything, and the URL you supplied does not lead to the actual source where one can confirm, therefore you're expecting us to do it for you?. I noticed a lot of consensus in the talk page and archived ones , what gives you the right to disrupt editing this article, because of this, I haven't seen any progress on this article in a very long time. We ask that you kindly stop being disruptive and let users edit we need to assume more faith than it is now, we gave sources you don't agree don't revert, The same rules that govern (this Wikipedia is in English) also govern (this article is about Algeria) If the article is based only on the English language, then why are Arabic and French characters included, get consensus or let's end this with a vote for once and forever, what the community agrees on will be the decision forever until if things changes. -- 105.235.133.65 (talk) 01:04, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

How Algeria is spelled in French or Arabic is immaterial to English Wikipedia. Thank you for your question:

What aspect of "Tamazight the same in both French and Arabic" is unclear to you?

and the answer is: none of it is unclear to me; but it it is irrelevant to English Wikipedia.

Comments about POV-pushing and personal attacks are off-limits here. You also used the word "disruptive" three times about my comments. This page is strictly about how to improve the Algeria article, and you may not make comments like this here, per the purpose of this page. If you have a concern about POV-pushing, disruption, or personal attacks, please raise them at the Talk page of the editor concerned, along with your evidence for it. (Please note that evidence-free accusations are considered a personal attack.)

Regarding your comment that "YES, English uses incorrect names..."; in that case, English Wikipedia policy is very clear on this point: we must also use those names, even if they are "incorrect" in your view. I have said this before, and I will say it one last time for you: articles in English Wikipedia use the terms that are found in the majority of published, reliable sources written in English. You may, if you wish, try to change that policy, but at present we are bound by that. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:27, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Negative, I mentioned it twice count again, WP:POINT & WP:BLOCKP. 105.235.133.219 (talk) 02:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, could you simply stop calling policies accusations?

You are taking things too personal, I feel discouraged to continue. Good luck with everything. -- 105.235.133.219 (talk) 02:24, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I will not discuss this here. I responded to non-content issues at your Talk page at User talk:105.235.133.65. Mathglot (talk) 02:48, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

"... is a country in the Maghreb region of North Africa." - The word Maghreb is in EXCESS and irrelevant, please remove.

Your[WP] sentence locates Algeria geographically, in the region of North Africa. The region in question spans from the Nile to the Atlantic. The Arabic word "Maghreb" is explained in its WP page in terms of geolocation:"The Maghreb is usually defined as encompassing much of the northern part of Africa, including a large portion of the Sahara Desert, but excluding Egypt and the Sudan, which are considered to be located in the Mashriq — the eastern part of the Arab world." - What does the political construct "Arab World" have to do with locating an land area on the continent of Africa? This is a real forcefull POV in a basic information. It's pollution, really. 2604:2D80:9117:CA00:F9B1:E407:154:8055 (talk) 16:47, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

If you are objecting to the use of the term Arab world in the article Magreb, then please take your objection to the talk page of that article. If you are objecting to the use of the word Maghreb in this, the Algeria article, that is not going to fly. Algeria is very definitely in the Maghreb; the word is used, appropriately, 29 times in this article, and Algeria is a founding member of the Maghreb Union. Calling use of the term Maghreb "irrelevant" in this article, is just your opinion, and nothing is going to change in this article based on your opinion. On the other hand, if you can come up with a host of reliable sources that show the Algeria is *not* in the Magreb, that is a different story, and then you will have some evidence to support your position and have a discussion about it. Pro tip: do not waste your time—you will not find them. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 22:57, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Population update

If it's not too much trouble please update the population in the infobox from 45,400,000 to 46,700,000 in accordance with the ONS

Sources:

• ALGERIAN DEMOGRAPHY by ONS
• El Watan
• El Moudjahid

From the first source, I quote:

Au 1er janvier 2024, la population résidente totale en Algérie a atteint 46,7 millionsd’habitants.L’année 2023 a été marquée par la poursuite de la baisse de la natalité où onassiste à un effectif des naissances qui reculé pour la première fois, depuis 2010, sousle seuil de 900 000 enregistrements, le recul du volume des décès et celui des mariages.Nous assistons également à une stagnation du taux de mortalité infantile, une baissede la mortinatalité. Par ailleurs, le niveau de l’espérance de vie à la naissance a connuune hausse record après le net recul enregistré au cours de la période 2020-2021.Depuis 2022, l’espérance de vie à la naissance des femmes a dépassé pour la première foisle seuil de 80 ans, atteignant 81 ans en 2023.

Regards. -- 105.235.131.22 (talk) 23:30, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

This article heavily overstates the use of the French language in Algeria.

This sentence: "Algeria's official languages are Arabic and Tamazight; French is used in media, education, and certain administrative matters." is not supported by sources and is debatably wrong. The government conducts zero administrative matters in French, French has been fully phased out of education for over 2 years now, and while French media exists, it is still a tiny part of the media Algerians create and consume. This should be updated asap to accurately represent the linguistic landscape of Algeria.

I suggest removing the second part of the sentence altogether. It is simply unfounded and not supported by sources. Kurdish Elf (talk) 19:09, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The use of French language in algeria in Public as well as general language and while going to the banks and other institutions is still in heavy use. Algerian websties still offer French and Arabic translations of their official pages and when an Algerian goes to Algérie Poste for instance you are offered a blank check in French and in Arabic, you fill it in either language, indeed your bills are without any question in French and so is you 'addition' when you receive a bill from a restaurant and such.

Its too early to phase out french despite the government beginning to transition in education to english, yet french remains an important aspect of daily life for Algerians.

Thank you very much for this suggestion, my honest opinion is that you can mention where english was phased in with sources for that but phasing out french I think is too early, I hope you will consider my input brother. Potymkin (talk) 22:38, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Algeria is a dictatorship - Using anything from it as a reference is a dis-service to WP and its users. Dictators are "dictators" because their dicatates are in total disconnect with the reality on the ground. 2604:2D80:9117:CA00:F9B1:E407:154:8055 (talk) 16:57, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Being a dictatorship or not has nothing to do with improving this article. Please stop making irrelevant comments on this page, as you did twice previously, or your comments will be collapsed or removed. See our guideline WP:TALK for what is appropriate at article Talk pages. Mathglot (talk) 23:39, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

It is well sourced in the § Languages section, and briefly summarized in the lead, and with 11–15 million speakers (twice as many as Quebec) there is no reason to deemphasize French in the article. Mathglot (talk) 11:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@Mathglot thank you for elaborating, that was very informative Potymkin (talk) 17:21, 22 August 2024 (UTC)