Talk:Anarchism in China/Archive 1

Archive 1

Someone Add this ^_^

I don't have time right now, but here is something rather interesting that i think should definitely be included in this page

http://big5.china.com.cn/book/txt/2005-11/23/content_6039015.htm

according to this page, Mao himself was an anarchist.. or, at least, were heavily influenced by anarchism... prime minster chou en lai was also an anarchist.. in fact, out of the 50 representatives present in China's the first people's congress, 22 were anarchists...

(i consider the source pretty solid... china.com.cn is firmly under the control of the communist party, they really have nothing to gain by making up stuff like that) if anything they would probably want to cover it up...

Philosophy.dude 01:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

@Philosophy Dude Mao and many of the other early communist officials started out as Anarchists or were educated in Anarchist schools, a fact that is discussed in the article. They explicitly rejected Anarchism, however, when they joined the CCP as doing so was a pre-requisite for joining and the CCP-run communist government ruthlessly hunted down and murdered hundreds of thousands of Anarchists once in power. So no, they were not anarchists. They were self-described Marxists who explicitly opposed Anarchism. ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.68.169.132 (talk) 23:26, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

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Uh, this seems like a fork from Chinese anarchism. Can we define a scope? John Riemann Soong 06:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, this should be gotten rid of and replaced... I'm going to put up a RfD. Supersheep 22:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Should have made that more clear. Chinese anarchism should be here and part of the anarchism sidebar. Supersheep 22:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

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There is a reference to Autonomous Beijing in the article, but I can find no reference to their existence anywhere, do/did they actually exist? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.46.25.42 (talk) 22:25, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

"Anarchist beheadings"

I noticed there is a picture that claims to depict the execution of an anarchist in the 1920's, but no source is given, and no explanation is given as to who is carrying out this execution. It seems likely to be a false photo (or doesn't depict what it claims it depicts). Even the comment that goes along with this photo is shady:

"depicting a Chinese anarchist being beheaded, sometime in the 1920s." Any photograph like this should have source information and a date, not a vague speculation by the poster. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.200.236.246 (talk) 17:45, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. I am removing. I researched this image and found that it actually has nothing to do with anarchism. It is a photo from the World War II period, depicting a Japanese solider beheading a prisoner of war. (Source: http://tangzongsongzuyuan.blog.163.com/blog/static/1082602812010115113738269/). The claim that Chinese communists beheaded political opponents in the 1920s (a time when both Chinese anarchists and communists were being massacred by the GMD in the failed insurrections of Shanghai and other places) using Japanese samurai swords is truly bizarre. It is a sign that significant sections of this article may be falsified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.200.236.246 (talk) 01:19, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Associated Articles

I am going to try to add additional associated pages. At present there are only three listed entires under Chinese anarchists and I think none of the groups have pages. Any help would be gratefully received. --Sentryward (talk) 06:51, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sentryward -- hope you are still interested. Stamboliyski has created several new pages, as have I, which you can see in the links to this page. This Anarchism in China article could use some work, especially in supplying the sources, and the red links could be turned into articles. I added material on the National Labor University (Laodong Daxue) in Shanghai on the Li Shizeng article, but not an article on it.

The old Scalapino/Yu article is a good general source, and I'll add it to the bibliography here. Sure, it's outdated in relation to Dirlik, Zarrow et al, but still very useful partly because it mentions the major people and themes, usually with enough detail for most purposes, but also because it's available for free online, which is good for many readers who don't have access to a major library. Cheers ch (talk) 19:29, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

ch Its very much on the back-burner, but I have the intention to come back on to it. I have the appropriate books, but not had the chance to read them yet and having been absent for awhile I will need to refamilarise myself with editing.--Sentryward (talk) 22:01, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Just finished Women's Rights Recovery Association, and created a category for Chinese anarchist organizations. I think this whole subject has great potential. I own "Anarchism in the Chinese Revolution", and sources online are fairly plentiful, so this should be nice. Stamboliyski (talk) 22:11, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

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Additions

In this Anarchism in China,I add the part of the Anarchism as popular movement, Decline in influence and the rise of Maoism and Hostilities between Chinese anarchism and Chinese communism. I tried make the content be more complement.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by DOGEVOL (talk • contribs) 13:17, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I quote the content form the resource of 《Social Histories of Anarchism》 Added a deep definition of anarchism as a mass movement, which is “Anarchism is another manifestation of modernity, which criticizes empires and nation-states in the most thorough way. At the same time, it was part of the process of modernization and globalization that swept the world before 1914.” At the part of Anarchism as popular movement. Added the anarchism at that time in the social position, which is “at this time was externally positioned as a continuum between liberalism and national socialism” At the part of Anarchism as popular movement. For this part, linked the modernity, the globalization, and the continuum.

I quote the content form the resource of 《Reassessing the Anarchist Case》 Added the sentence to bring up the subject of Esperanto, which is “Not only labor issues, but also language is a constant topic of discussion in the dissemination of anarchist ideas. After the death of the young Master Liu, the Anarchist movement in China went through a difficult period.” At the part of Diffusion of anarchist ideas. Added the content to explore the details about the events, which is “Until the eve of the May 4th movement, Esperanto was still a problem that anarchism needed to solve. After Chen Duxiu founded the new Youth, a new culture movement publication, in 1918, the flagship journal published controversial discussions about Esperanto, an international language that even some non-anarchists were fascinated by.” At the part of Diffusion of anarchist ideas. Added the content to explain the anarchist role in this event, Esperanto during this period of influence and role, which is “Anarchists used the opportunity to unite around this common topic and gain new visibility through widely published journals, Thus, during this period, Esperanto, as a more equal means of communication, addressed the "linguistic disadvantage" of East Asia without having to choose a language that was attached to a particular country.” At the part of Anarchism as popular movement. Added the content to conclude the value and significance of Esperanto in this event, which is “Esperanto embodies the true internationalist ideal. Also, it represents modern in a rational sense, and gets rid of the inconsistencies of the typical historically accepted language.” At the part of Anarchism as popular movement. For this part, linked the May 4th movement, Chen Duxiu and 《New Youth》.

I quote the content form the resource of 《Vision and Revolution Anarchism in Chinese Revolutionary Thought on the Eve of the 1911 Revolution》 Added the KMT agrees with Sun Yat-sen's views., which is “Also, this view was shared by other Kuomintang ideologues.” At the part of Early growth of anarchism. Added the purpose is to introduce the following text and explain the similarities between the Cultural Revolution and anarchist thought., which is “Anarchism has cooperated with many revolutionary organizations, and struggle is a process of seeking common ground while reserving differences.” At the part of Status today. Added anarchism to the ideological process of the Cultural Revolution, which is “In recent years, critics of the 1960s Cultural Revolution have argued that it was inspired by anarchist ideas. These ideas entered the Chinese Communist Party in the early 1920s and survived many years of revolution.” At the part of Status today. Added conclusion the subtle relationship between anarchism and the theme of Chinese revolution in this paragraph., which is “Some of the themes of the Cultural Revolution may indeed bear some resemblance to the themes of the Chinese revolution first proposed by the anarchists.” At the part of Status today. For this part, linked to revolutionary organizations. Pubulish the Sun Yat Sen's images in the article.

Added this sentence triggered the events of anarchism in 19200, which is “By the beginning of 1920, anarchism was the most radical trend in Chinese socialism, and it served the Kuomintang by the end of 1920.” At the part of Decline in influence and the rise of Maoism. Added reasons for co-operation between anarchism and the Kuomintang and reasons for decay, which is “For early anarchists had established personal and political relationships with Kuomintang leaders, independent of their ideology. But the anarchist ideology, in its peculiar formulation of social interests and conflicts, makes itself almost as easily an instrument of counterrevolution as it is of revolution.” At the part of Decline in influence and the rise of Maoism. Added Anarchism has the events of the late 1920s. Link to counterrevolution. Link to Marxist ideology, which is “At the end of the 1920s, the anarchists, betrayed by the Kuomintang in their struggle against Marxist ideology, exhausted their utility and slowly disappeared into a force in the Chinese revolutionary movement.” At the part of Decline in influence and the rise of Maoism. For this part, linked to Marxist ideology.

I quote the content form the resource of 《“New Year’s Dream”: A Chinese Anarcho-cosmopolitan Utopia》 Added spreading anarchist ideas through utopian stories, which is “Since the 1890s, there have been many utopian stories spreading anarchist ideas, reflecting people's desire for a strong China. 《New Year's Dream》is an excellent work of the utopian narrative tide initiated by CAI Yuanpei in Liang Qichao.” At the part of Diffusion of anarchist ideas. Added the influence and role of CAI Yuanpei's 《New Year's Dream》, which is “New Year's Dream is not only a description of CAI Yuanpei's personal revolutionary trajectory, but also his unique contribution to anarchism. On the one hand, CAI Yuanpei gave a concise and complete description of anarchism in time and space, which endowed anarchism with a real-world revolution. On the other hand, as far as political practice is concerned, the story contains more complexity than many European anarchists expected.” At the part of Diffusion of anarchist ideas. Added the description of CAI Yuanpei's thought experiment to prove the activity characteristics of the Paris group, which is “and CAI Yuanpei's thought experiment that is a fascinating blend of anarchism, cosmopolitanism, and social evolution” At the part of Diffusion of anarchist ideas. Added the 《New Year's Dream》have the different with the normal utopian story, which is “and in the 《New Year's Dream》,which predicted the great changes in the world with the passage of time.” At the part of Pairs Group.

I quote the content form the resource of 《Anarchism and Cinema》 Added the influence of The German anarchist Johann Most on the United States., which is “The United States is influenced in many ways by world anarchism. Johann Most, the German anarchist who came to the United States in 1882, was described as "the Most vilified social radical “of his time, a man whose profuse advocacy of social unrest and fascination with dramatic destruction eventually led Emma Goldman to denounce him as a recognized authoritarian.” At the part of Influence of U.S. anarchists. Added a brief description of the film 《Lady L》 to spark a discussion between Goldman and Proudhon. Link to 《Lady L》, which is “The film 《Lady L》 not only influence of America, but also the anarchist perception of women. The protagonist begins her career as a humble but pure washerwoman in a brothel; she is exposed to the film's disgusting sexual misconduct, but she is just an innocent bystander, so she is not abandoned by society.” At the part of Influence of U.S. anarchists. Added Proudhon and Goldman, two anarchists' views and reflections on film, which is “Anarchist views of prostitution have undergone a sea change; to the misogynist Proudhon, the prostitute became "the model of any female liberator”. But Emma Goldman argues that trafficking in women is not a moral aberration, but a symbol of capitalist wage slavery. ” At the part of Influence of U.S. anarchists. Added the cover of the film 《Lady L》, At the part of Influence of U.S. anarchists. For this part, linked to Johann Most and 《Lady L》.

Cleanup

• @CWH and Stamboliyski (@Sentryward is inactive), any chance you'd be willing to turn the general refs on this article into in-line citations? I've been working through the anarchism articles tagged for cleanup but it would be hard for me to do the needful in this case without access to the texts. czar 20:18, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

@Czar: Thanks for your good work on these articles and for drawing our attention back to this major need. I've been up to my neck on outside projects this summer, and the next few months don't look much better. @Stamboliyski:? If you can get the ball rolling, that might shame me into it, however.ch (talk) 21:21, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

• Hi @CWH, thought I'd try you one more time. Since the current text has been tagged for cleanup for a decade, if you don't have time to source it from your books, I think the only next step would be to TNT it and seed the article with some directly verifiable text. Can always restore from the page history in that case, but better off than leaving an article that no one can verify/trust. czar 01:38, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up @Czar -- I'm afraid that I lost track of this page. I see your diligence in the exchange on yor Talk Page with @Ogat, so we should be able to fix up the references here, though not overnight. Since many of the paragraphs are adequately referenced, it would not be helpful to readers if we just cut the ones that are not, but rather see what should be challenged and removed.

The article as it stands is still the best essay on the topic either on the internet or, to the best of my knowledge as a PhD in modern Chinese history, in print. This of course, does not let it off the hook. Some paragraphs should be cut, such as "According to some accounts...," under "Chinese student movements." Still, much of the rest is "inadequately" referenced but not "unreferenced."

I've started that process, and will come back for more.

BTW, what does "TNT it" mean? I searched for the Wikipedia policy "TNT" but didn't find it. I'm also not clear what it would mean to "seed" the article with reliable text. If you or Ogat want to work on this article, ouldn't it be simpler to look at the Robert Scalapino book online and Dirlik's Google book to see what can be used for the unreferenced paragraphs?

Again, thanks for pushing this! ch (talk) 18:43, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

@CWH, certainly! If you have a rough idea of which books/sources would support specific paragraphs, I'd be able to be more helpful. Right now I'd be shooting in the dark trying to match paragraphs to source material and that's with no guarantee that our text appears in any of the bibliography sources at all.

WP:TNT is to blow up the article and start over when there is no core nugget worth saving. In this case, I would start with (i.e., seed) a paraphrase of this basic overview and we could expand from other sources from there. The question is whether we can reasonably source the extant material (or how). I think Ogat's more into templates, but otherwise I've found that it's hard to get editors to work on new topics unless they (1) want to, or (2) are returning to something they once wrote. The online Scalapino is unpaginated so no help with verification there (and is that not a copyright violation?) but perhaps Dirlik can be used for certain sections if it has no viewing restrictions. czar 01:29, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Ok, now I see. But no need for TNT, since this article is now a perfectly good draft. Even with its faults it leaves a new reader with a better idea of the topic than any short piece or article I can locate on line or off. Wouldn't nurturing a new "seed" require more work than bringing this old one up to snuff?

Your "seed" would make an excellent addition, maybe to a new section, perhaps called "Proto-anarchism," and there is much that the "other sources" can contribute. The articles that are linked have sources that can be tapped, for instance those on Li Shizeng.

Scalapino-Yu is free online, as are many Google books, but that does not disqualify them as reliable source if they were published by a reliable scholarly press, e.g. Scalapino, and Yu was published by the Center for Chinese Studies, Institute of International Studies, University of California. Clicking on the online version's pdf link at the top of the page produces a paginated pdf, but we could also give references to a section. It is easy enough to find whether unreferenced sentences or paragraphs are based on this source by looking at the TOC or searching for a proper name, though our article uses pinyin and Scalapino-Yu uses Wade-Giles.

I've begun the clean-up, though much remains to be done. It's a fascinating topic!ch (talk) 06:07, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

The idea would be that a shorter page, fully sourced, is better for readers than a draft of dubious reliability, especially if it has been marked as unreliable for 10 years. If you think you have time to cite the remaining paragraphs, I can pitch in too, but it's usually a lot harder to source others' work than it is to rewrite from scratch.

If we use page numbers for Scalapino, let's use the original publication. It's misleading to use the PDF pagination since that may change based on rendering. If something is cited to the online (illegal?) repost of Scalapino, can use a direct quote as part of the citation when a page number is unavailable. czar 13:51, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Eh, I could see Scalapino helping with the work–study section but apart from that, no hits for the other people/events mentioned throughout our article. czar 03:00, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

You are right that this is a pain. The original editor would have made an even bigger contribution by including careful sources. Scalapino/ Yu is the source for most of the article, but we can still add material from the sources we would have used to expand the seed. Also the sources used in linked articles.

Scalapino/ Yu use Wade-Giles, so you can't just search for a proper name from our article; Zhang Renjie in Wade-Giles is Chang Ching-chiang, and even worse, he is also known as Zhang Jingzhang in pinyin, Chang Ching-zhang in WG; Chang Chi = Zhang Ji; Liu Shipei = Liu Shi-p'ei. Paris is Paris, however. ch (talk) 21:45, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by DOGEVOL2 (talk • contribs) 14:26, 17 December 2020 (UTC)