Talk:Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka

Thought provoking question

"The eucharist was desecrated, and furniture damaged. The donation chest was broken, and Rs. 1,000 stolen. In all, the cost of the damage was Rs. 18,000". Mention of measly sums like these seems to be improper. After all, we are an Encyclopedia! Or are we trying to pass the cap around here? Purkunna (talk) 22:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

What are the reasons why only Hindus are converting to Christianity and not vice-versa? --Googlean (talk) 06:55, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• This is flawed question. First it assumes that hindus are converting to christianity (due to billions of dollars poured into conversion efforts) and no christians are converting to hinduism. This is false. The number of christians back sliding to hinduism is enormous. Many christians of India are christians in name only. They follow almost all the hindu practices like shaving their heads, using hindu marriage customs like thali in addition to wedding rings etc. They even follow the caste system of the hindus. As for the other way consider the number of westerners who convert to hinduism voluntarily after reading about hinduism. This inspite of hinduism having no conversion practices/rituals to entice people of other religions into its fold. Read Polytheism is much better than monotheism 121.247.48.118 (talk) 10:42, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It is the same process as happened when India submitted itself to colonisation by inferior cultures earlier in its history? Everywhere else in the world, do Christians get converted? Whereto?

Jobxavier (talk) 10:55, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Need for sympathy towards the too many anti-Christian violence articles

There is a question of garnering donations from America and Europe with sob stories of anti-Christian violence, involved in the large number of articles being posted on anti-Christian violence in India, with seperate articles for each and every incident for whatever reason on anyone bearing a seemingly Christian name. This is good for India also because it brings in foreign direct investment. I have therefore, decided not to induce any more NPOV in this and similar articles because they are only belly-filling exercises by resourceful missionaries; and as such deserve sympathy.Jobxavier (talk) 09:37, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

RECOMMENDATION FOR DELETION

A Wikipedia article, page, template, category, redirect or image created for the sole purpose of disparaging its subject is an attack page. It must be deleted.

There is no anti-Christian violence in Karnataka. There is only anti-Conversion protest. A proselytisation group called New Light Church had been distributing literature depicting Hindu gods vulgarly for the past three years. Finally, the Hindus retaliated against it. Violence ensued.

WP is being used by certain proselytisation groups in India to tarnish the country's name and image as a democracy on the leap. This can be noted by any NPOV administrator if he goes through the various Articles on 'anti-Christian violence in India', all written or edited by the same editors. The current article is an example.

Jobxavier (talk) 23:55, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

As I noted earlier, it is the very same POV editors who are insisting that India's image must be tarnished, whatever the truth be. It seems that there is some very POV intent here. WP should not be a board for unpatriotic elements from any country or region.

The Article should be deleted forthwith.

Jobxavier (talk) 10:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Jobxavier - i agree no one should be disparaged. if you see this, i encourage you to fix it. the purpose of the article is only to document the violence.

i don't agree the violence is an "anti-conversion protest". i agree conversion is one of the causes but there are other factors too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vvarkey (talk • contribs) 11:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It started as a protest against New Light Church's vulgar literature against Hindu gods. Another cause was Catholic-led Congress' initiative to use religion against the new state government. However, WP is not the place for propaganda.

Can we document online the New Life's Church's vulgar portryal. Moreover, prosetylization in India is banned both by constitution and the Supreme Court. For NPOV, we request wiki editors who are not christians, preferably of Jewish origin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.39.14 (talk) 16:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC) Jobxavier (talk) 11:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Jobxavier, please add any missing information you have straight into the article. As long as it is WS:RS and NPOV, it will be welcomed. --vvarkey (talk) 11:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

This is a section on specific events with a common theme in one part of India - the cause-effect relations or justifications for the events are important, but they do not justify removing this entry. User: kijacob, 27 March 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 03:16, 28 March 2011 (UTC).

Jobxavier, it's people like you (and i use that word in the most loosest sense possible) that make me ashamed of being an Indian. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me!} 15:17, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Moved by consensus. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 03:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Anti-conversion violence in Karnataka → Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka. The previous move was bad faith as it was not properly discussed. As BBC, NDTV & Times of India and other well known Reliable sources reported (see article reference list), Anti-Christian violence is the proper title. Additionally, if anyone searches for both titles in any search engine, Anti-Christian violence comes with ["Anti-Christian+violence+in+India"&btnG=Google+Search&meta=] more than 10,000 hits. On the other hand, ["Anti-conversion+violence+in+India"&btnG=Search&meta=] shown zero results. What I am saying is that there are many reasons behind the violence. Not only by conversion which is merely discussed by media and not at all suitable for the title. Therefore, the current move is unwarrantable and it should be reverted to the previous title. --Googlean (talk) 06:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support - Per my comment above. --Googlean (talk) 06:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support - There should be no need for any substantive reasons justifying the move back. The move was obviously going to be disputed, and was taken without discussion. Moreover, it appears to be motivated for POV reasons (blaming the victim). Gabrielthursday (talk) 06:39, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support - I moved the article to "Violence Against Christians in Karnataka". I apologize, it should have been with consensus here in the discussion. As reasoned above, the title Anti-conversion violence in Karnataka does not make sense. It is not only missionaries that are targets. It is the Christian community as a whole. Please discuss any moves in this section --vvarkey (talk) 07:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
• Comment - In addition to millions of google hits, have a look at DNA, guardian, Hindustan Times and yahoo, all speaks about Anti-Christian violence in India, which is the proper title, not any Anti-conversion. --Googlean (talk) 10:41, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Do any of these sites say anything about New Light Church? What was the provocation for the violence? Need we mention the statement of the Kerala Bishops? Why do they not have violence in Kerala though it has the largest number of Christians in india? Jobxavier (talk) 10:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

If that was the only motive, the assailants could have warned/attacked the New Light Church only. Why did they attack innocents such as Catholic, Protestant, Jehovah Witness and other prayer groups? So the motivation was engendered from their blood itself to target all Christians, i.e called Anti-Christian violence. Also note that in Kerala, there are many numbers of churches were vandalized in September 2008. --Googlean (talk) 11:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The same 4 or 5 IDs always press anti-India POVs in any India matter. Are they the same person?

Jobxavier (talk) 11:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

You may make use of WP:SSP or WP:RFCU. --Googlean (talk) 11:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Jobxavier, please do not move the article unilaterally. The article is now under Wikipedia:Requested moves --vvarkey (talk) 11:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I reverted Jobxavier's edit for the time being with new title until an admin solve the issue per consensus. --Googlean (talk) 11:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The POV article should be deleted. Jobxavier (talk) 17:02, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Googlean - The Catholic Bishops do not think there was any anti-Christian violence in Kerala. Because rhere is no proselytisation there. Keralites were converted first by St Thomas. They are the first non-Jew Christians on Earth.

Jobxavier (talk) 17:09, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merger proposal

September 2008 attacks on Christians in Mangalore article is a duplicate version of Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka and therefore should be merged to the latter. The former article has exactly the same subject and having the same scope. --Googlean (talk) 08:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think we should create an article 2008 Anti-Christian violence in South India? Kensplanet (talk) 10:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Apart from the Karnataka incidents, which all issues are you thinking about? This article is solely created for Karnataka anti-x violence, and in effect, other minor issues are also reported. Therefore, I am doubtful on other minor incidents to be included under the proposed one until the issue is so widen to the whole South-India. --Googlean (talk) 10:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

But Mangalore and Karnataka are different. Mangalore has around 15% Christian population, much higher than many cities. So, a seperate article is required so that minor incidents can be mentioned. Kensplanet (talk) 11:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support see below for withdrawal and subpage proposal Much of the content is complementary. Mangalore can be treated as a subsection, and, if there's that much information, a subpage can be made. But I think there's no need to eliminate minor incidents in a united page. Gabrielthursday (talk) 17:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose: Instead we must create an article September 2008 attacks on Christians in India so that we can put Karnataka, Orissa, Kerala there. If Karnataka, Orissa can exist, then so can Mangalore. Kensplanet (talk) 03:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The violence was affected not solely in Mangalore as there are many incidents reported from all over the Karnataka, especially in Bangalore, Uduppi and Chicamangaluru (Other states of Karnataka) etc. Therefore, no need of a separate article at this stage as everything can be united under Karnataka. Not, too, that in Orissa, the article covers all the anti-x incidents in the state, not alone from a district/region where much violence reported. In the case of Kerala, some minor incidents were reported that already mentioned here. When it becomes more notable and broaden, a separate article can be created under the new title Anti-Christian violence in Kerala, not at this time. --Googlean (talk) 07:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

So, that's what I am basically trying to say, instead of Merging September 2008 attacks on Christians in Mangalore with Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka, why not merge Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka with September 2008 attacks on Christians in India. The new September 2008 attacks on Christians in India article will include all attacks from Karnataka, Orissa and Kerala. If you support this, I have no problem in merging September 2008 attacks on Christians in Mangalore with September 2008 attacks on Christians in India. But I strongly object merging September 2008 attacks on Christians in Mangalore with Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka. That article is unnecessary Kensplanet (talk) 07:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

No confusion. We have a separate article to cover all Indian incidents, i.e Anti-Christian violence in India, which also have linked to the main state-wise incidents such as Karnataka and Orissa. Moreover, the Mangalore article is purely a duplicate version of this article. --Googlean (talk) 07:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Similarly, in the Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka article, we can have a sub-article named September 2008 attacks on Christians in Mangalore, Please, it's not a duplicate. I have not copied it blindly, but constructed it on my own. If it is expanded, then it may have lots and lots of minor details which may be considred trivial for the bigger Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka article. Kensplanet (talk) 08:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I never said that you have copied it blindly. I am absolutely sure that is you created it your own. If you really need a chance to expand the article, I AGF, ready to withdraw from this proposal.--Googlean (talk) 09:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

How is this as a solution: create a section on Mangalore on this page summarizing and linking to the subarticle. Can we agree that's a good step to take? And I'll withdraw my support for the merge as at the very least being premature. Gabrielthursday (talk) 09:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

That is also very good idea, I am now trying to work on that, in effect, withdrawing. --Googlean (talk) 09:40, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

"When it becomes more notable and broaden, a separate article can be created under the new title Anti-Christian violence in Kerala, not at this time. --Googlean ." This is hilarious!

Jobxavier (talk) 13:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Thankyou for your replies. I'll try to expand it as time progresses. Kensplanet (talk) 06:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that an article each for violence in each village would be best. This will evidence that missions work in all villages in India. "When it becomes more notable and broaden, a separate article can be created" for each individual christian. We shall need only 24100000 pages.

Jobxavier (talk) 00:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I like it as such as a separate entry, rather than merging. This refers to a specific set of events in a specific part of India for a specific period of time. Thus it is worth keeping it as a separate entry. user: kijacob 27 March 2011

The violence

Source references of the huge amounts stolen etc are not seen. The Statesman link does not work. These may be deleted. Jobxavier (talk) 00:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary deletions and undo-ings of sourced NPOV materials by Googlean

The above are being reported.

Jobxavier (talk) 03:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Stop Jobxavier's vandalism

Someone please take stand against this user’s (User:Jobxavier) biased pov pushings, as can be seen from his history. Please note that he has been blocked many times for his blatant pov pushing and removal of content, and edit-warring only in these particular Anti-X articles. Right now I am busy and may not able to work on much. --Googlean ^Results 03:31, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

This ia personal attack and is against WP policies. The editor Googlean merely reverts all reasoned edits enblock fearing they would be against his POV. If he has crossed the 3R rule, another of the other 4 users does so. Googlean ought to read the edits and consider the reasons given for each edit. There is mostly POV stuff in his and the other 4 users' so called anti-X pages which are actually only anti-India. Unsourced and wrongly sourced POV is mindlessly added by Googlean and the 4 others. It is a headache for NPOV editors.

Jobxavier (talk) 03:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Re-captioning / Move Article as/to Religious Violence in Karnataka

The Page about violence in Orissa has been moved to Religious Violence in Orissa. This page should also be similarly moved/captioned.

Jobxavier (talk) 04:06, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Merger

Would somebody care to enlighten me about what precisely is the difference between the following articles, save for their titles? The article look and claim to be about the exact same topic and I will be merging them.

• Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka
• September 2008 attacks on Christians in Mangalore Sarvagnya 23:33, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

This has already been discussed. Look up. Kensplanet^Talk_{Contributions} 02:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I looked up. I don't see anything there which explains the need for these two articles. Would you bother to spell it out? Sarvagnya 18:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You are right. Both the articles should not exist. Actually, we should have an article 2008 attacks on Christians in India and put K'taka, Kerala, Orissa everything there. But if Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka can exist, then even September 2008 attacks on Christians in Mangalore can exist. Support merging September 2008 attacks on Christians in Mangalore with 2008 attacks on Christians in India but Strongly Oppose merging September 2008 attacks on Christians in Mangalore with Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka. Kensplanet^Talk_{Contributions} 19:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Your proposition makes no sense whatsoever. Articles are merged only when they deal with the same issue and more importantly, to merge articles, the articles need to exist in the first place. Do you realize that 2008 attacks on Christians in India is a red link?! The three articles you mention are -

• A. 2008 attacks on Christians in India
• B. Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka
• C. September 2008 attacks on Christians in Mangalore

Of the three B and C deal with the exact same issue and therefore will be merged. A will be a summary article of which a summary of B/C will be a part. As it stands, A is a totally different article. B and C, I repeat, deal with the exact same thing. Sarvagnya 20:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Read the Merge proposal above and then comment. I am just waiting for the 2008 attacks on Christians in India to be created by someone. September 2008 attacks on Christians in Mangalore will be merged with the proposed 2008 attacks on Christians in India article. No way with Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka. If A is totally different, then even B and C are also totally different. A, B and C all are the same. Kensplanet^Talk_{Contributions} 08:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

As suggested by other users above in the first merger proposal by me, I created a section on Mangalore and summarized stuff for clarity and linked to the Karnataka and vice-versa articles. I think that was a good idea of resolving this issue. Also, since Mangalore has 15% of Christian population in Karnataka, other incidents can be added into that article. At any rate, Anti-Christian violence is the best name for all these articles (See Requested move section above). --Googlean ^Results 08:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

We have about 23 million low-caste Christian converts in India. Each of them is being violently attacked. We should have one Page each per Convert. The more the pages, the more the donations from abroad.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.34.175 (talk • contribs) ( striking out comments from POV pusher and banned user User:Jobxavier -- Tinu Cherian - 02:51, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Definitely merge but may I ask: isn't it only Bajrang Dal that have claimed responsibility? In which case it could perhaps be moved to Anti-Christian violence by Bajrang Dal? Munci (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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This article is very important.Because Christians are treated very bad in India even by the government.Actually Hindus are ruling the country and they are considering other religion people including Christians as their slaves.We have to beg infront of them for anything.Hindus are simply attacking and killing us.government is taking slow actions or they dont want to take.Christians are helpless here ,so we need held from powerful CHRISTIAN NATIONS that India may be afraid Important article--117.196.157.111 (talk) 08:29, 2 February 2011 (UTC) I come from a Mangalorean Catholic family. Although i myself am an Atheist, my family is Roman Catholic. We are a proud people and have always walked with our head held high. We have never had to beg in front of anyone for anything. These attacks are all the handiwork of a few miscreants and lowlives. The ordinary Hindus are ashamed of these people. I am angry at the Hindus of Karnataka for not sufficiently protesting and taking action to prevent these actions done in their name, but that's a whole another issue. The bottom line is that the Christians in India are nowhere treated as slaves. In fact, i would gladly beat the hell out of the person, whether he be a Hindu or any other religion, who would dare treat me or my family as such. Furthermore, we don't need the so-called "Christian nations" to come to our aid. Joyson Noel Holla at me! 13:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Last edited at 04:35, 18 May 2011 (UTC). Substituted at 07:59, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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