Talk:Architecture of Wales

Referencing problems

Referencing in this article is in a very poor state. Overall, it's inconsistent in format. There's a large "Literature" section which contains both material referenced in the article and additional reading material that's not referenced anywhere in the article. More specific problems include several ambiguous or non-existent bibliographic references:

• Several references to ""Smith"(1988)", when no such book is defined. There's "Smith P.(1990), Houses of the Welsh Countryside, 2nd Edition, 1988"; is the problem that the parenthetical year is incorrect?
• References to "Britnell et al. 2008", but no such book is in the "Literature" section.
• References to like "Chapman M Ll Ty Mawr, Castle Caereinion: a history of ownership and tenancy, in "Britnell", 179-98"; again no "Britnell" book
• A reference to ""Lloyd", 28", but there are two different Lloyd titles. Which one?
• References to ""Lloyd" (1989)" and ""Lloyd et al." (2003)", but the only years for Lloyd titles we have are 1986 and 2006.
• References to "Hubbard"1975" and "Hubbard (1986)" when no such years are given for Hubbard titles.
• References to "Turner 2008" and "Turner 1995" when no such titles are identified.

and there are many more. How can this be fixed? Should the undefined references simply be replaced with fact tags, or is there someone who's familiar with this material enough to repair the references correctly? -- Mikeblas (talk) 13:03, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Looks like many of these issues extend to the original version of the article, written by Tyssil. Is that editor still active on Wikipedia? Perhaps they can help clarify their sources. -- Mikeblas (talk) 13:10, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Mikeblas - Tyssil is still active, but whether they edit this page anymore, I'm not sure. I wouldn't describe the referencing as in a very poor state. It's a very well-researched and well-written article. You are right that there are some referencing problems. I have some, though by no means all, of the books, and can probably sort some. The Peter Smith Houses of the Welsh Country is, I suspect, a typo. The 1st edition, which I have, was published in 1975. A revised second edition was published in 1988. I would guess the 1990 is a reprint of the 2nd edition. So I think it should read, Smith, 1988, origyear 1975, but I can only do sfn referencing. The Hubbard 1986 is the Pevsner Clwyd, which is cited. The 1975, I'm less sure about. The Thomas Lloyd Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion is right for 2006, but I'm less sure about the 1989. A reprint of The Lost House of Wales (1986)? The Britnell is a 2008 article which could certainly be listed. The Turner's are these two; Robert Wynn and the Building of Plas Mawr, Conwy (1995) and Plas Mawr, Conwy (2008, 2nd edition); and you're quite right that they need citing.

If you want to flag the concerning ones I'd be pleased to have a go at correcting them. KJP1 (talk) 09:44, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

It's hard for me to agree that the article is well-researched. PErhaps it is, but since the referencing is so poorly executed, there's no way to verify that. A reference should identify source material clearly and uniquely, and that just doesn't consistently happen in this article. I've cleaned up the references to the Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion book and the Colvin book, but many more issues remain. -- Mikeblas (talk) 13:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Not going to quibble over any difference between well-referenced and well-researched. You're quite right that there are some issues with the referencing, and I'll do my bit to help fix them. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 16:33, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

I have corrected many of the defective references- a few had been introduced by later editors. If there are further references needing correction, please let me know.Tyssil (talk) 22:02, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Tyssil - Many thanks indeed, for this and for the article. It's an excellent country survey, I'm not sure I know of any better on here. I've made a minor tweak to John Newman's Glamorgan. In the text it was cited as 1995 (original year), but as 2001 (reprint) in the Bibliography, so I've amended the latter to conform with the former. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 06:27, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I've done some tidying of the references. I've not corrected any (or many) but they are now more consistent in punctuation and structure. That might help with rationalising them. Dave.Dunford (talk) 17:11, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Page length is far too long

This page is far, far too long. I have made a start on trimming this down by removing virtually all non-cited text and I have removed many excessive images also. I have cut down the page from 228 bytes to 194 bytes. We should continue to trim down and better summarise architecture until it reaches below 100 bytes prose size, as is recommended by WP:SIZERULE and WP:TOOBIG. The sections on each type of architecture should not include a discussion of every major example but should be a succinct summary. ThanksTitus Gold (talk) 18:05, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

All the non-cited text has now been removed as far as I can see. I welcome concise and small additions if there are any glaring gaps, such as "Ty Unnos". Happy to make cited additions myself if you want to suggest any. Let me know also if I have missed any citing detail when copying some text over to other articles (I would kindly ask if you wouldn't mind reviewing). I'm currently making a few corrections at Richard Clough. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 17:44, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

You have also deleted entire (well sourced) sections about important Welsh architects. By all means summarise, if this is your area of expertise, but don't delete sections wholesale. It is more like vandalism rather than improvement! Sionk (talk) 17:49, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I did not completely delete those sections, I moved those texts to other relevant, more specific articles. Please read the article in its entirety, there are still multiple mentions of each one of those important architects and their work. If you really want to copy some text back and integrate it properly within a wider section of buildings in Wales, be my guest. Titus Gold (talk) 17:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

As the article stands now nobody would imagine from reading it that Clough Williams-Ellis did anything more than design council small-holdings and save a bit of plasterwork for a town hall. DuncanHill (talk) 18:02, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

You 100% deleted the sections, TitusGold, as you have done wholesale through the article. What is more you are simply dumping the deleted sections in the target articles without even the slightest attempt to integrate them. Massive work by other editors to undo all your damage. Sionk (talk) 18:06, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Let me clarify. I deleted non-cited text. I moved text on specific architects to other pages. Titus Gold (talk) 18:35, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

So you don't want anyone reading this article to have any idea of the significance of those architects? What have you got against the Welsh? DuncanHill (talk) 18:45, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm simply trying to better summarise Architecture of Wales. I agree those architects are all important. All of those architects are already mentioned multiple times on the page. If you want to re-include any text that was moved, you're welcome to do so, but it doesn't solve the enormous size of the article.

If you look at Architecture of Scotland for example, it groups content into periods and there is no particular focus on certain architects. Titus Gold (talk) 18:58, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

P.S Perhaps there is room for another article to be created? Perhaps linked to from this page? Welsh Architects? Titus Gold (talk) 18:59, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

TWO mentions of Williams-Ellis. Not "multiple times", however much you continue to pretend otherwise, and no indication of his significance. DuncanHill (talk) 19:04, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

You're welcome to add some further concise, integrated and cited content on Williams-Ellis. Titus Gold (talk) 20:46, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

P.S please see Draft:Welsh architects(could be renamed to "Architects in Wales") where I am collating information specifically about notable Architects in Wales. Titus Gold (talk) 20:50, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

How about you work up your draft BEFORE blanking even more of this article, and then see what the community thinks? Indeed, how about you work up a draft of your ideas for this article, instead of just making haphazard changes here and there while annoying as many people as possible? DuncanHill (talk) 20:56, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I have finished making the changes I thought were suitable and won't be making any further edits in the short term. If any editors are unhappy, they are welcome to make specific reverts.

My suggestions

- Trim down some of the longer sections further to better summaries

- expand "Ty Unnos" a little

- Move text specific to a particular architect, that are not properly integrated as a wider narrative on a general type of architecture in Wales to Draft:Welsh architects (could be renamed to "Architects in Wales"). I will continue to work on this draft. Titus Gold (talk) 21:58, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Architects have a fundamental part in the Architecture of Wales so need to play a part in this article. Don't delete information from Wikipedia's article mainspace without a good reason (I'm sure I'm not the only person who's becoming sick and tired of your modus operandi of creating your new content forks by deleting and copypasting large chunks of other editors' work). If you think significant parts of this article are irrelevant to an overview of architecture in Wales, then maybe you should make the argument here first. Sionk (talk) 22:23, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

But I agree the article is unfocused and rambling in parts and probably contains significant amounts of opinion and original research. It should largely provide an overview (with citations to sources that provide an overview) rather than become clogged with excessive detail. On the other hand, as someone has already mentioned further up the page, there's no apparent reason why the article is currently "excluding castles and fortifications, ecclesiastical architecture and industrial architecture". If this article was a true overview of Wales, it should actually have sections about those aspects too (so would theoretically end up even longer). Sionk (talk) 22:49, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I have copied or moved content for use in Wales specific pages and where otherwise relevant and allowed which I think is acceptable. Moving content was actually indicated in the improvement banner for this page.

That is fair, I should've gone to talk page with major changes (I didn't think these changes were going to be controversial).

I've just finished tidying Draft:Architects in Wales (this is arguably a fork lol!) which could be a better base to focus on the architects themselves and major works. Would encourage a review of this and additions if you agree this is a sensible way forward? I agree this page should definitely have a section on castles. I also agree that architects in general should be an important part of this page, but just more concisely. Titus Gold (talk) 23:37, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I’m not at all convinced that your Draft:Architects in Wales article is the way forward. It’s not an approach adopted for Scotland/Ireland/England. As it stands, you’ve looted great chunks of material written by others (including me), and dumped it in your, poorly-constructed, draft. This draft isn’t chronological, has no context, is badly-written, and the references are a mess. Having done all this damage - you then say “let’s talk”. How many times have editors previously asked you to discuss major changes before, not after, you’ve made them? The basis of editing here is collaboration, and there could indeed be improvements made to this page if editors with knowledge of the subject worked together to improve it. But you have repeatedly demonstrated that you can’t/won’t work in this way. KJP1 (talk) 05:46, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

That's fair enough. The copied/moves were made to relevant pages also. Like I said, I didn't think the changes would be controversial since there were banners indicating the need for major reduction of text and images. I will leave things as they are and no one is stopping anyone from reverting anything if they so wish. The draft is just a start, it would still require a lot of work before publishing. Scotland/Ireland/England articles are far, far more concise and more similar to the end result of my changes. The architects of Wales article is just an option going forward. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 12:34, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Although I'm happy with reducing the length of the page, I think we also need to think about how easy it is to move from one part of the jigsaw to another. For example, we start off the lead by saying what we are not including, but we don't explain why or direct the reader to other articles that may be of interest, e.g. Archaeology of Wales. The earliest stone buildings go back to prehistoric times, and shouldn't simply be disregarded as not being architecture. Deb (talk) 15:12, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Architects in Wales

I have restructured this draft in chronological order with a focus on the most prominent architects in Wales in each century. Do you think this page is worth pursuing and publishing? This page and the draft could link to each other with this page giving an overview of style and periods in Wales and the draft focusing on the most prominent architects. ThanksTitus Gold (talk) 12:14, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

There's no precedent for this that I can see. That's not always a bad thing. Though it could effectively turn into a (expanded) "List of architects in Wales" or "List of Welsh architects", the way the draft is heading at the moment. Sionk (talk) 13:20, 7 October 2022 (UTC)