Talk:Argentine cuisine/Archive 1

Archive 1

Maté

See Talk:Yerba maté for discussion, but the short version is that the name of the drink from the Paraguayan holly is maté in English, despite being mate in Spanish. -LlywelynII (talk) 13:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Argentine/Argentinian

(old discussion, kept for reference)

I thought the adjectival form of Argentina was Argentinian. Is this an American thing, am I crazy or is this article badly titled? Tuf-Kat

I think you are right but am in a rush, will come back later. Nevilley 07:25 17 May 2003 (UTC) Ox. Doc. for Writers and Editors (the Bible!) agrees with you.

The British often (mostly?) say "Argentine". I don't know if that's just wrong or simply a valid trans-Atlantic language difference. Here in Oz we'd usually say "Argentinian", but Oz English follows several American forms as well as the English ones, so that doesn't tell us much. Tannin

In the UK, Argentine and Argentinian are both valid adjectives for stuff connected with Argentina (or "The Argentine" as it is also known). Argentine might be regarded as the older form but there isn't a lot in it. I would just leave the title the way it is. It balances other article titles like automobile. -- Derek Ross

Fine with me, as long as there is a redirect (which I just made) Tuf-Kat

ODWE (see above) regards Argentinian as better than Argentine. This is not a UK/US split and I believe Tannin, with respect, is wrong about this. If it is true that Argentine belongs with "The Argentine" then this is an even better reason to get rid of it - most of those "The X" forms of name have patronising, colonial overtones and are better done without, for example Lebanon is better than The Lebanon. Gambia than The Gambia etc. I don't know precisely what the effect of the "The" is but it has an unpleasant ring to it, to my ears. I think it's to do with insisting that the country has no proper identity as a country and can just be referred to as some sort of colonial possession, but that's only my theory. :) Nevilley 10:10 17 May 2003 (UTC)

I'm not convinced about the colonialist overtones. There are too many instances where "The" is used in non-colonial contexts for there to be any real link. For instance, it's difficult to see any colonialism inherent in the names, "The Wash", "The Downs", "The Camargue", "The Highlands", "The Sahara", "The Americas". There are plenty of other examples if you think about it, the majority without any discernable colonial background. If anything I'd be more inclined to think of this type of terminology as a reference to a geographical entity rather than to any political entity which might occupy it. But even that's a bit weak. In truth, it's probably just the arbitrary nature of English coming to the fore again. -- Derek Ross

I have avoided the issue by moving this to Cuisine of Argentina, which is more consistent with the country articles anyway. Tuf-Kat 05:21, Dec 14, 2003 (UTC)

Tea

Tea is part of Argentine cuisine?!? They don't even have any proper tea. Twinings is considered a luxury and is available as an import only. Good tea is unheard of. What they do drink is mate, at any time of the day. Sprotch

There are a lot of tea brands in Argentina, and many different teas. Nevertheless, the unfortunate phrase of "with every high society lady taking tea and cake at four o'clock" seams ridiculous.

Please, try to avoid NPOV comments such as "Mimicking Europeans is a national obsession, and many Argentineans would deny that they have an Argentine culture". Argentine people are, in fact, quite touchy about their Argentinism. -Mariano 08:26, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Well, Mariano, you and I know that mimicking Europeans has long been a national obsession (not necessarily conscious and not necessarily everybody's obsession). One important part of Argentinism is a longing for European-like, not-quite-Latin-American status (and a forceful denial of such a longing). My thoughts, at least. At any rate, not encyclopedic and a very volatile topic to be mentioned outside talk pages... --Pablo D. Flores 12:23, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Certainly I agree that the tea available in Argentina is not to British taste - Taragui and the usual Twinings and Lipton don't compare. But, in my experience, it is widely drunk, particularly among the middle classes of Buenos Aires, and not just those of Anglo heritage (although they are naturally keen on tea). I have also come across the 4 o'clock high tea phenomenon much more widely in BsAs homes, old hotels and, of course, confiterias like the Richmond and in Recoleta, than here in London. Mtiedemann 16:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I understand perfectly your comments, and indeed it is quite easy to get tea in Argentina. However, it is quite a stretch to claim that there is a tea culture in Argentina. Tea is drank far less often than in western Europe, and there is no quality tea readily available. To put things into perspective, do keep in mind that Lipton or Twinings are cheap low end tea in Europe. I seriously doubt that there are many Argentinians drinking tea everyday. Tea would come as a distant third behind maté (No 1 by far) and coffee. Regarding my NPOV comment, it was indeed poorely phrased. However, some reference should be made to that: it is part of Argentina's culture. Indeed, it would come as a shock to most middle class and above Argentinians to discover that they are actually not at all like the French or the British, but have their own special identity. Sprotch 17:00, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

There's the tendency to consider Argentine culture only the Argentine middle-to-high class culture. Let's not forget that the middle class and high class are just a minority, and that cumbia villera lovers are far from considering themselves Europeans. So I would be careful phrasing this European obsession, which indeed exists, but is far from being national. -Mariano 11:01, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

By the way, Argentina is the ninth largest producer of tea in the world. A lot of this is low-grade and exported to the U.S. for instant and iced teas. I'm not sure what amount is consumed domestically.Lagringa 05:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is dumb. I'm Argentinian and I drink six cups of tea at least! every day. While I only drink coffe or mate ocasionally.

In Argentina tea is very common and we usually have tea for breakfast have tea for breakfast and in the "merienda" in the afternoon. We drink all kind of teas and our country and it is an import producer too.

About the "european obsession" lol, I don't believe in that for god's sake!. It's simply not true.

There are people of many different origins in Argentina and everyone most of the times honor their heritage, since most of the heritages are Europeans they honor their European roots. But there are also Asian Argentines who honor their heritage, there are native collectivities who honor theit heritage, there are lots of immigrants from Bolivia and Peru now who honor their heritage.

Please sign your posts using ~~~~, so it's easier to keep track. You seem to have understood the article or this discussion as criticism of Argentina. As I said above (a long time ago), maybe using the wrong words, valuing European (and American) culture over local culture has a long history in Argentina. The constitution explicitly encourages European immigration. Our presidents brought Europeans to populate the country while it exterminated the aboriginals. Roca brought American teachers when he got Law 1420 to educate us savages. Buenos Aires is "the Paris of South America". "International" before the name of anything makes it better in advertising. Etc.

I advise you not to go around calling people's discussions "dumb", or stating that something is "simply not true" because you "don't believe in that for god's sake!". That's bad manners.

You have 6 cups of tea a day. Good for you. You're among the most avid consumers. I drink one cup, rarely two, and sometimes go for several days without any (I alternate with coffee and mate cocido). I know people who never drink tea. If you want to prove a point about tea consumption, bring forth statistics.

I don't know where you got from European obsession to racism, but your last sentence, besides being completely subjective opinion, has nothing to do with the discussion. We're talking about tea! :) —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 01:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think what he is trying to say Mariano put it very very badly and I agree. To say We are "obsessed" about our European Hertiage as Argentines is stupid Mariano. That in it self is Subjective. Yes we care about it so what. Also, to say Argentines in the Capital only care about it, is completely untrue. I am from Cordoba and I am Very Very Proud of my Hertiage so are all my friends from Cordoba. So do my various friends across the country. Cordoba holds Immigrants Festival it's always packed. I think what he meant about the US is that they also in Mariano words "obsesses" about there hertiage why don't you blame them. Thats what it seems like he said to me. So Pablo I think he was most mad at what Mariano said before (which was simply uncalled for and I agree with his statement). (XGustaX 19:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC))

Working on translation

Following the translation drive, I've independently started to translate es:Gastronomía de Argentina. Very complex merging will be needed with the already useful content of the page. The Spanish Wikipedia article is very comprehensive. Native English speakers to double check my translation would be helpful (edit at will).

I'm placing the temp translation in a subpage (/Translation). --Pablo D. Flores 14:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Please work on the translation in the main article space. — J3ff 02:06, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

• • Pablo, there is absolutely no need to duplicate the efforts of the SPATRA team. Please work alongside us on the article, don't do an independent translation. That's a waste of everyone's time, yours and ours. Fernando Rizo T/C 19:21, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

• Again an article got messed up with Spanish text? Remember the recent mess in Glacier. Wikipedia_talk:Spanish_Translation_of_the_Week#Glacier:_whats_going_on.3F (SEWilco 18:55, 4 August 2005 (UTC))

Before beginning the translation, this article was only a few paragraphs long. This situation is different from Glacier. The Glacier article had substantial information before the translation process was started. — J3ff 19:05, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

• • SEWilco, the problem with Glacier last week was that a very high traffic, already established article had Spanish text interspersed in it. Cuisine of Argentina is nowhere near as high traffic and was little more than a stub a few days ago. Translating in the article space is much, much easier than commenting out text like the SPATRA team had to do last week. Fernando Rizo T/C 19:21, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
    • So you consider it OK to mess up an article for the week's readers. How do you judge beforehand the number of readers whom you will irritate, and what is the acceptable number? (SEWilco 17:13, 5 August 2005 (UTC))
      • I agree, this is a different case. Glacier was a substantial article before we started working on it; Cuisine of Argentina was a stub, which meant that many people weren't interested in it to begin with. The amount of people that we've irritated is, in my opinion, directly proportional to the geographic scope and size of an article. This article is about Argentina; therefore, most readers who encounter it are a) Argentinan, b) Latin American, or c) familiar with Spanish (in varying degrees). Glacier, on the other hand, was much more visible to English speakers, because of its larger geographic scope. --Titoxd 07:16, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I began translating the text before the SPATRA started (as you can see from the timestamp of my first announcement). Then I left it for a while, of course letting everyone now here so they could pick it up. I see that some of that text was moved into the main article, but other parts (a large part I'd say) were lost. Today I worked a bit on the article (the /Translation subpage was redirected there anyway). --Pablo D. Flores 23:46, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

The text was not lost, it was merged into the article. I made a few modifications to the text to make the article smoother. — J3ff 23:53, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

To bear in mind

Please, have i nmind that there no need to make an literal translation of the hole article, as the original is far from perfect (e.i. harto común). When we have a more advanced version we can start chopping down repeated information throught the regions, and fixing the writing. Yes, I know, I shouldn't complian if I did help much tranlsating, it was just a commnet.-Mariano 11:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I completely agree. The Spanish article is extremely verbose and at times it reads like a brochure. I guess we can leave out the anecdotic parts and reduce the rest by 50% without lossing information. --Pablo D. Flores 14:48, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I was trying to help with some copyediting but gave up when I saw the quality of the source material. The Argentinian obsession with trying to present themselves as European rather than Latin American displays itself in full force here. Also annoying is the unnecessary classism. There are a lot of irrelevant and repetitive parts worth cutting. Lagringa 08:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Lagringa, I'm Argentinian I live in Argentina, this article show pretty well the Argentinian cuisine. what do you want to edit? Where are you from?

Anyway, don't worry, Argentina is an American country (everybody knows that is in the Americas, and more exactly in S. America) but it has a huge European influence because the heritage of most of the population.

That happen in many countries in America (mostly in Uruguay, Canada and the US).

It is pretty ironic that you feel the need to point out the "huge European influence" while trying to make the point that Argentinians aren't obsessed with presenting themselves as European! The article repeatedly makes comparisons between Argentinian food and European food and exaggerates the similarities. This meshes with my experience living in Argentina, as I was constantly told how European they were, as opposed to all the indios in every other Latin American country. But my experience is neither here nor there - the article is poorly written. You could cut out half without losing any content. Lagringa 18:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I do not think there is an obsession with "European influence". This is just a reality that a considerable part of the population of Argentina cannot elude. If our grandparents came from Europe, as it is the case with a great percentage of the population, does anybody expect this fact to be hidden just to make this article sound more Latin American? The same case applies to Uruguay. As for Lagringa experience living in Argentina, I think that the remarks she quotes come from particular cases (racist people) that put european tradition over indigenous tradition. This, as any other case of extremism in any country, cannot be generalized as a national habit. --190.226.85.84 (talk) 04:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The article is too long and repetitive, and a significant part of the information is either inaccurate or unrelated to the topic.

Another determining factor in Argentine cuisine is that the country is one of the world's major food producers. It is a major producer of meat (especially beef), wheat, corn, milk, beans, and since the 1970s, soybeans. Production does not determine consumption (e.g.: tea in the UK, coffee in Germany, chocolate in Europe or soybeans in Argentina), so this inference in the article is not valid.

...there exist at least two other comparisons which are important in understanding Argentine cuisine: the first distinguishes a cuisine that is essentially urban and cosmopolitan (highly influenced by the "globalization" of food and eating patterns) from a more traditional, idiosyncratic rural cuisine. The second comparison is made on the basis of socioeconomic differences. None of these "important" comparisons to be made to understand Argentine cuisine appear later in the article.

In Patagonia, lamb and chivito (goat) are eaten more than beef. I have lived in Patagonia for 12 years and know this isn't true at all. It is true that Patagonia lamb is superb for cooking, but it doesn't replace beef in the eating habits of the majority of the population.

Another variation is the "empanada gallega" (Galician empanada), which has a round shape and is more like a big, round meat pie made mostly of tuna. This should be omitted. I think "empanada gallega" is not so important a dish as to appear in an article about Argentine cuisine. Why not pumpkin pie or vegetable pie or home made hamburgers that are fare more common (as they are cheaper) than empanada gallega? How can you justify including empanada gallega and omitting "puchero" that is far more "national" (in spite of coming from Spain)?

Fideos, Tallarines, ñoquis, ravioles and canelones can be bought... Fideos (noodles) is the term that stands for some kind of pasta, you cannot say "Fideos, tallarines..." (because tallarines are already fideos), as you cannot say "Europe, Germany and Japan".

Sandwiches de miga are delicate sandwiches made with crustless buttered white bread, very thinly sliced cured meat and cheese and lettuce. The only cured meat used in sandwiches de miga is ham. On the other side, the fillings are a bit more varied than just "cured meat and cheese and lettuce". Tomatoes, boiled eggs, "palmito", roquefort cheese, and even pineapple are not rare. I think it is not necessary to specify filling of sandwiches that are already known in so many countries.

Alfajores are shortbread cookies sandwiched together with dulce de leche or a fruit paste. Jam or marmelade, not fruit paste.

Dulce de batata is made of sweet potato/yam: this with cheese is the Martín Fierro's sweet. Martin Fierro is a denomination that most of the people have never heard about. As somebody comments above, dulce de batata with cheese in traditionally called "vigilante", name which also extended to dulce de membrillo (quince) and cheese. Both variations are most commonly called "queso y dulce".

yerba mate plant (Ilex paraguariensis) The binomial name is incorrectly written.

tea and coffee are equally important. I agree. Tea consumption per capita in Argentina is 0.25 kg per year. Considering that it is mainly drunk in the central part of the country, this figure is certainly higher for that area. I disagree with people above that objected this fact basing their objections on the low quality of Argentine tea. English or American beef is low quality for argentinian standards. Even so, that doesn't imply that beef is not consumed in the UK or in the States.

Other typical drinks include wine (occasionally mixed with carbonated water known as soda) Cheap wine is sometimes mixed with soda water by many people that find it too strong or by children. The text is misleading at this point.

Argentine Cuisine is heavily influenced by its European roots. Asado, dulce de leche, empanadas and yerba maté are found throughout Argentina. These statements are contradictory for neither asado, dulce de leche, empanadas or yerba maté have strong european roots.

It is here that red-meat-based foods are combined with white meat... It is difficult to find here a dish combining red meat with white meat.

(Its name derive from the original cotoletta alla milanese from... It is "Cotelleta alla Milanese"

more closely resembles Italian calzones should read: more closely resembles Italian calzoni (or calzone if you want the singular)

Typical Argentine pizzas include pizza canchera, pizza rellena (stuffed pizza), pizza por metro (pizza by the meter), Pizza por metro is just a way of selling pizza and not a local variation of the italian dish.

Argentine pasta tends to come together with a large amount of tuco sauce (Italian suco "juice"), and accompanied by estofado (stew). Tuco is the local name for the ragù napoletano, same ingredients and preparation, which is used for pasta in the same way. Due to the long time needed for cooking this sauce, actually fileto sauce is much more common.

Polenta comes from Northern Italy and is very common throughout Argentina. But unlike in Italy, this cornmeal is eaten as a main dish, with sauce and melted cheese. This could be the opportunity to point out that polenta in Argentina is, unlike what happens in Italy, one of the typical food resources for people with low incomes due to it's low price.

Spanish influences are abundant: desserts like the churros Churros are not a dessert. You eat churros at breakfast or in the afternoon. You never eat churros after a meal.

...arroces (rice dishes such as paella), and fabada (Asturian bean stew). Do we live in the same country? You eat paella and fabada just in Spanish restaurants of Buenos Aires, Rosario and maybe Cordoba. Despite the Spanish influence these are not common dishes at all in Argentina.

dried salt cod (bacalao), calamari, and octopus, originate from the Basque and Galician regions. Either you use the Spanish word "calamares" or use "squids" instead. No point using an Italian word for a Basque or Galician speciality.

I think there are lots of things to correct, cut and rewrite in this article.

Of all what follows I think that the worse part deals with the intent to unify the food habits of Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego. Depending on the location in Patagonia you can find spider crab in the southern cities on the Atlantic, or never in yor life see one if you live near the Andes. Furthermore, trouts are an implanted species in the lakes of the South due to the non existance of edible fish. Alevins are fed to the lakes every year, or grown in trout farms. So, I should modify the sentence: The coastlines and lakes of this region have proven rich in fish and shellfish,....

--190.226.85.84 (talk) 04:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Quick notes for reference

There are many red links in the article; some of those words will have to be de-linked, but for others there should at least a small article.

• Peperina: http://www.detodounpocotv.com/yerbas/peperina.htm
• Ruda macho: http://www.psicofxp.com/forums/historial/topic/187424-1.html (note well: there's already an article on Common Rue, but I don't know if this is exactly the same plant; the species is cited as Ruta chadepensis or Ruta chalepensis).
• A page on medicinal plants in general: http://www.folklore.cl/reportajes/medicinal/fichaplantas.html
• Plants of Santiago del Estero, including herbs: http://www.mineria.gov.ar/ambiente/estudios/irn/sant_estero/tabla1.asp
• On the Rutaceae: http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/carr/rut.htm
• Malva: http://www.webcolombia.com/plantascurativas/Malva.htm

I also think there should be something like Argentine sandwiches to cover pebetes, choripanes, carlitos, etc. They don't deserve independent articles. Either that, or name them with common English equivalents. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 01:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Postre vigilante

¿Membrillo? If you ask for a postre vigilante you'll probably get sweet potatoe paste and cheese. User:Ejrrjs says What? 08:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Comments about article in general

The original author's statement that there are 4 parts of cuisine in Argentina that exist regardless of region gives undue weight to the popularity of dishes due geographic distribution, when the influence should be based on demographics instead. I also feel that this article is too involved in showing a wide distribution of cuisine instead of showing what people really eat. I agree with the previous comment that this article reads like an unweighted list.

The segment on wine is especially difficult to understand. No statements about Malbecs or how wide of an assortment of domestically produced wines are available? How about a reference to Argentinian wines?

I have also seen numerous cases in BsAs of beer being mixed with lemon-lime soda or Fanta Orange.

Not to rub someone's fur backward, but I'd also be impressed if one could find a parillada or dulce de leche in the Falkland Islands as this article infers. Any amount of research would show that Falklander cuisine is mostly British, with the addition of seafood. The cuisine of the Falklands is not like that of Patagonia and the South Atlantic region and this article does a disservice by inferring such. Either state that the Falklands have their own unique cuisine and describe it or leave them out and stop pretending they are part of Argentina. In fact, I will go so far to say that the entire premise of the article is bunk, since, if the Falklands were part of Argentina then they would have "barbecued meat; dulce de leche; empanadas; yerba mate" -- which they don't. They have sheep and fish. Oh, but let's add them to a "region" that does and pretend they share in the history. Obviously some political thoughtspeak going on here. The article should be changed to state the reality of Falklander cuisine or be specifically left out.

Freakdog 00:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Other foods

Any other food you think we should add?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Erbres (talk • contribs) 05:45, 14 July 2006.

Zapallitos (Cucurbita maxima var. zapallito) are a very common and cheap food in Argentina. Considering that they are unknown anywhere else (except in Uruguay and Chile) I think they should be included.

The Vino de "La Costa" was a cheap wine made from "uva chinche" (fox grape, i.e.: Vitis labrusca) that, although it was popular some 40-50 years ago is no longer common nowadays. I do not think this should be included in the article taking into account that many other wines which are more representative nowadays are not included.--190.226.85.84 (talk) 04:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Article Length

The article in its current form appears to be too long. A through copy-edit to reduce wordiness is one solution, another is the creation of daughter articles. The section on beverages seems an especially good candidate for a separate article. Thoughts? --Fsotrain09 22:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Mediterranean Diet

The "Mediterranean diet" refers to a diet high in vegetable, olive oil, and fish. Argentinians consume very little fish and olive oil, and relatively few vegetables. I've deleted the reference. Lagringa 07:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Or you have been never to argentina,or you have been under a rock for the past 30 years....Seriously,do you think we consume very litlle olive oil? Geez,with almost every dish,be it milanesa,pollo,asado,there is ALWAYS a Salad WITH OLIVE OIL AND LOTSA VEGETABLES. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.190.143.127 (talk) 04:29, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Say cheese

If anyone feels like adding a Cheeses section, chech this. Mariano(t/c) 08:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Sections translated

I assayed to complete the translation in the two sections indicated. I'm fairly certain of the cheese section, less certain of the northwest section. Somebody check me. --Rpresser 02:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

56 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.113.195.113 (talk) 03:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

European roots

The article keeps on saying about Argentinian's cuisine having European roots, I read it about 12 times throughout the article. I think we got the point. It's got European roots. Can someone please look into that? It's annoying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.132.202.107 (talk) 16:16, 1 August 2010 (UTC)