Talk:Argonauts

Reality?

"Many Greeks would claim their ancestors were Argonauts" There's no source for this claim. Also, isn't this fiction?Promontoriumispromontorium (talk) 08:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Historicity of Argonauts and the Trojan War?

The opening sentence,

The Argonauts (Ancient Greek: Ἀργοναῦται, Argonautai) were a band of heroes in Greek mythology, who in the years before the Trojan War, accompanied Jason to Colchis in his quest to find the Golden Fleece.

creates the impression that this adventure actually happened because it can be placed chronologically before another event that actually happened, the Trojan War. Also, it implies that it happened shortly before -- "in the years before..." -- the war.

In reality, we know of no war corresponding to the ten-year siege of Troy; the events of the Trojan war are characterized as myth and no Greek myth supports a notion that the Argonauts sailed just before the Trojan War.

None of the Argonauts played a part in the Trojan War (and vice-versa), not even the tragic Polyphemus). Maybe I recall wrong, but aren't both Nestor and Peleus dead spirits who are invoked by Odysseus for advice?

How about just dropping the clause "who in the years before the Trojan War"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kameshaiyer (talk • contribs) 16:50, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

A tablet was found near Maikop in the 70s that apparently commemorated the Argonauts expedition. So maybe there is some truth to the story after all.--Auric talk 01:24, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

References

One of the characteristics of Greek mythology/legend -- as it has come down to us -- is that it has a distinct chronology to it. Hegemony of the Titans -> Hegemony of the Olympian Gods -> Cycle of Thebes, Cycle of Jason & the Argonauts, Labors of Hercules -> Cycle of Troy. In other words, the participants of the Trojan War could be thought of as having fathers & grandfathers who participated in, or at least lived during the lifetimes of Jason & Oedipus, & their more distant ancestors were alive to watch the myths of Zeus or Poseidon unfold. (This was accepted historical fact late into Christian times, which posed chronological problems to devout Christians for centuries.) On the other hand, this chronology of legends does appear to have some kind of relationship to the various cultures which succeeded one another prior to recorded history: some tales are connected to Minoan-Mycenaean sites, slightly later ones to Hittite sites, still later ones to Greek Dark Age sites. Exactly what this relationship can tell us about these otherwise undocumented places & their peoples is the subject of extended & long-standing debate between experts -- as well as contemporary nationalists. -- llywrch (talk) 19:52, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

The phrase "in Greek mythology" suggests this is not real history. The voyage of the Argonauts was viewed as a generation earlier than the Trojan War; among the Argonauts were Telamon (father of Ajax) and Peleus (father of Achilles). Nestor participated in both adventures, being perhaps the oldest of the Achaean leaders in the Trojan War. Goustien (talk) 17:14, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Comments

This article lacks recent archaeological evidence for the highly developed metallurgical skills of ancient Colchis in the 8th century and the current debate on placing this myth before the Iliad. I can add these elements in February when I'll have some time. --Keltica 20:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

This article seriously needs some more references. Especially for the crew of the argos section 129.81.71.131 (talk) 08:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Personally I fully believe it is prior to the Iliad (Nestor, Peleus etc are old men in the latter). I've just deleted Jason from the list of Argonauts: he is mentioned right at the top of that list with Medea, who does not feature further down. Fuzzibloke 16:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Why are Polydeuces and Pollux listed separately? Pollux is simply the Latin form of the Greek name Polydeuces. These are two names for the same character74.197.20.58 (talk) 13:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Right you are; I fixed it. Wareh (talk) 18:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

name

Can someone provide a source for the Argo being named after Argus. My information indicates that "argo" actually means "swift", so some citations might be helpful. Trippz (talk) 09:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

in litterature - lotr?

I was just curious whether anyone have linked the Argonath in LotR with the Argonauts? I know that the Tolkien-lore says that the Argonath name is derived from various elvish tokens, but the coincidence seems a bit more major than that. -- Larsivi (talk) 11:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Questionable Argonauts

Laocoon - If this is actually meant to be a reference to the Trojan priest of Poseidon, could some reference be given, as no traditional time-line would seem to allow this. If this is not a mistake, could some reference be given for this addition to the list (and others for that matter)? Digemedi (talk) 07:41, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

This is a different Laocoön. Goustien (talk) 17:17, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

I dont think Oedipus should be on the list. 78.142.167.222 (talk) 15:16, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Why are Achilles and Patroclus on this list? They're from a generation later at best - both younger than the sons of some of the other men on this list. Taking them off. 124.190.225.43 (talk) 06:02, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Literature, Movies, etc -- what about games?

Rise_of_the_Argonauts.

Oogles (talk) 04:19, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

In Scottish mythology

The article begins "in Scottish mythology". Really?? Si1965 (talk) 16:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I see this was changed today from the more realistic Greek, I don't know how to undo this change Si1965 (talk) 16:42, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Finish the story?

The story summary ends by saying that Hera helped Jason, but it doesn't say how the story ends. I assume Jason returned with the fleece and took the throne, but if so, I think the summary should say it. It might also mention just exactly how Jason got the fleece away from the dragon.--Dwane E Anderson (talk) 19:34, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Questionable description of list of crew.

It says "too many are claimed for them all to be accurate", but given that it is a myth full of supernatural occurrences told by multiple different ancient sources there is no one "accurate" list. To call the list given here an "educated guess" is meaningless. I think a more encyclopedic treatment would be to list all who are claimed to be crew members even if that number exceeds the number of crew members there supposedly were. Perhaps break it down by what source is making the claim? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.148.183.191 (talk) 04:19, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the above. Originally there were probably 50 argonauts: 50 was a magic number - Aegyptus had 50 sons, Danaus had 50 daughters, and those aren't the only occurrences of the number in mythology. Different authors guessed at different names (ancient authors don't report myth - they exploit it in their fiction, there's an important difference!). Apollonius Rhodius guesses 55 names, including Jason (if I've counted correctly, but there are at least two men with the same name in his poem), some other author might guess another 52 names with an overlap of 40. That doesn't mean there were 67 Argonauts, or that the names are correct. Ap Rhod says (1.558) that Achilles was a baby when his father Peleus sailed on the Argo, but the chronology does seem accurate - Pelias, the usurper of Jason's father's throne, was Nestor's uncle, making Jason and Peleus the same generation as Nestor, and Achilles a generation younger. The Northern myths Tolkein exploited (in his fiction, for those of you who aren't aware Tolkein is fiction [/sarcasm]) post-date the Argonaut myth by at least 2,000 years, so you can forget Tolkein (besides, the methodology of the study of the transmission of myth is way above the level of Wiki, but currently popular in academic circles, especially German ones)! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.158.150.43 (talk) 07:32, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

In Hercules, my shipmate, Graves states that not all of the Argonauts were part of the crew from beginning to end, and that some of them simply joined the ship's company because it was heading in the right direction for them. Granted, this is only fiction, but if so it would explain why the list is so long. JDZeff (talk) 21:48, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Source: Homer?

What exactly is the source of the story? It ist clearly older than the Iliad, so probably not Homer. Does the whole story exist in book form (and who has written it), or just in summaries? In other words, where do we have the story from? 80.121.62.1 (talk) 21:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The story was told by "Apollonius of Rhodes". [1] HotshotCleaner (talk) 21:41, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Suggested improvement

The list of crew members of the Argo would be more useful if it were presented as a table with columns checked showing which source attests which personage. The reader could then draw her/his own conclusions based on both the number of attestations & the value of the source. I also suspect that, since this was a famous story in pre-Hellenistic times, there are earlier writers who mention one or more crew members; this information could then be added. (Had I copies of all 3 books at hand, I would make this change myself.) -- llywrch (talk) 19:32, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Perseus on the Argo?

User:Drawingpad has edited the list to indicate that Perseus was on the Argo, with no source given. Is this true, and can someone give a source? It seems implausible, because his great-grandson Heracles was also on the ship for a short while. – b_jonas 08:57, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Now reverted by User:RomanSpa. – b_jonas 10:55, 29 August 2015 (UTC)