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The multiverse and how it relates to the Arrowverse

Okay. Can we discuss what the images seen in The Flash's "Welcome to Earth-2" means in the grand scheme of things? Bringing back my point I addressed in an earlier discussion, what are we classifying as the "Arrowverse"? Is it only the world that is inhabited by the CW shows, or is it the whole multiverse that these shows are encompassing (with the main focus on Earth-1, but saying Earth-2 is also in the Arrowverse, Supergirl's earth is also in the Arrowverse, and now apparently the 1990s Flash series is in the Arrowverse). I think based on how I asked earlier, it seemed everyone was feeling that (for lack of a better term) "Earth-1" occurrences (across the linear time line) is the Arrowverse. So because of that, which I can get behind, how on this article (or maybe another article??) should we make mention of the budding multiverse we have going on here? Because I think it is notable to make mention that Supergirl exists in the multiverse, as well as the 90s Flash series ret-conning its way in. And we have (or will be getting) third party sources/commentary on the matter, given what happened in "Welcome to Earth-2" and probably the next episode too. Hope this was clear what I was trying to get across. Time travel and multiple dimensions everyone! - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:01, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

I do think we need to deal with it in some way. We already have Johns confirming the multiverse (and I do believe that the Arrowverse is Earth-1, so Barry and co. technically left the Arrowverse tonight), and now we are actually seeing it realized through The Flash (and hopefully they will find a way to tie-in to the DCEU given that the Supergirl/Flash crossover is airing after BvS is released). Perhaps we could start work on a draft or something (which we likely wouldn't be moving to the mainspace for a very long time) for "DC live-action multiverse" perhaps, and in the meantime just have end-of-article sections on relation to the multiverse like we had/have for the Arrowverse until this was moved into the mainspace. So at Supergirl, for instance, the Flash crossover section there would become a relation to the DC multiverse section, with the info from Johns on the multiverse followed by the crossover info. Is this the sort of thing what you were thinking of? - adamstom97 (talk) 09:39, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Honestly, I would not do more than have a small little blurb about it existing in this giant "multiverse" that includes Supergirl and The FLash from 1990. If you do more than that, then people are going to want to start pulling in information from those shows to his page and this page is specific to just the Arrowverse itself.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:52, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

@Adamstom.97 and Bignole: What do you both think of the section I created? Also wondering if any modified version of the table as it appears here, may be better, or a good addition. Thanks. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:40, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Honestly, that's probably good enough. I don't think anymore tables are necessary. It would add yet one more thing duplicated onto this page, and the page itself already has enough tables.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:30, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Got it. The prose I added was the bare minimum I felt: John's quote on the matter, and a small bit of context of how the multiverse context was introduced. The only other things I envision adding would be if we get more glimpses of possible worlds, and the two we do now about get numbers. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:32, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I also think the prose is fine, and I even cut out some stuff that I thought was a bit too Flash specific, but I added that stuff over at the Flash page anyway (not sure if the format I used there is what you guys want to use as well). I also moved the sections to the bottom of the articles, since it seemed to me that an article's connection to something separate/bigger, if that makes sense, should come after all the information on the article's subject itself. So when we finish talking about the Arrowverse itself, then we discuss how it fits into the wider multiverse. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:46, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Supergirl/Constantine

The Template:Arrowverse says that Constantine and Supergirl would be just related shows of the Arrowverse, but they are not just related shows - they are part of the universe/multiverse. Also in this article the shows are just mentioned as crossover. Are The Fash and Legends of Tomorrow just part of the Arrowverse because they are spin-offs of the shows? So why is also Vixen mentioned as part of the Arrowverse? This show is also not a spin-off, but a crossover of the other shows. Is it just because Supergirl and Constantine aired on an other channel? That′s just formal stuff and Vixen even didn′t air on a TV channel anyway! --Wikiolo (talk) 22:21, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

We have reliable confirmation that The Flash, Vixen, and Legends of Tomorrow are all set in the same universe as Arrow (the Arrowverse), and this has obviously been backed up by the sharing of characters and storylines, etc. For Constantine, though the character obviously crossed over to Arrow, we do not have the reliable confirmation that the series is set in the Arrowverse. All we can say for sure is that Ryan reprised his role in Arrow, and the producers were able to make him look the same as in his show. We need some official confirmation that Constantine the series has been retroactively added to the Arrowverse before we can say that it is more than just a crossover. For Supergirl, we have reliable confirmation (from Deadline) that Supergirl is not set in the Arrowverse, and that the Flash will travel from the Arrowverse to the Supergirl universe for a crossover episode. So you are right in that the Arrowverse and the Supergirl universe are a part of the same multiverse (as is the DCEU according to Geoff Johns), and that is why Supergirl doesn't belong in the Arrowverse series section. - adamstom97 (talk) 00:13, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Actually we DO have proof that Constantine is part of the Arrowverse. This is a fragment of an interview that showrunner Wendy Mericle gave in August "In terms of whether we should assume that this is firmly considered the same version of Constantine from his own series (and thus retroactively linking the Constantine series to the Arrow-verse), Mericle said, “Absolutely. He is coming in fully as who he was on the show. We’re getting wardrobe. We’re very excited to have him. He’s a tremendous actor. It’s so cool to have that cross-pollination. We are very lucky and DC was very generous letting us have him.”" (http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/08/12/arrow-constantine-will-help-bring-sara-lance-back). This clearly states that Constantine is part of the Arrowverse.Oraklebat (talk) 03:26, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

This was discussed when the interview first came out, and consensus was that because she never states it herself and we can't be certain that that was the exact wording used when she was asked rather than a later rewritten version, this doesn't actually confirm it. All we can take from this is they have tried to make him the same as he was in his own show, with the retroactive wording (which I agree is exactly the wording we need as proof) likely synthesised by the interviewer. - adamstom97 (talk) 04:17, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

As far as I know, the Arrowverse is just an informal term (and it is also know as Flarrowverse), so that we can decide if it is a universe or a multiverse. And Constantine is also part of the multiverse when Mericle said so. I mean, every written citation could be modified, but the content should be the same in reliable sources; and IGN is definitly a reliable source. --Wikiolo (talk) 09:15, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Wikiolo has a point in their statement above: do we consider the Arrowverse as a universe or a multiverse? If the former, then only Arrow, The Flash, Vixen, and Legends are part of it, with crossovers with Constantine and Supergirl. If the latter, then all the CW shows and Supergirl would be part of the Arrowverse, with a crossover with Constantine. Opinions on how we should proceed in our thinking (which I personally feel will become clearer after the Supergirl/Flash episode airs) requested: @DonQuixote, AlexTheWhovian, and Bignole: and the users who already were discussing above. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 13:56, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

To me, the "Arrowverse" are shows that have direct impact on the same universe. Not a multi-verse. Constantine was a single character crossover and what happened on his show did not impact anything on Arrow or The Flash. The same will be true for Supergirl. To me, these crossovers are akin to the Sleepy Hollow/Bones crossover, which does not make them part of the same universe per say. There is a broader connection, and no one will likely speak of them again. Whereas, events in Arrow/Legends/Flash have direct implications to each other. Or Vixen for that matter.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:10, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

If you have a read of the development section here, you will see that Arrowverse is the official name used by the producers, and you will also see that it is a universe set within a wider DC multiverse that also includes such universes as the DCEU. So no, we don't get to decide what it is at all. The Arrowverse is a shared universe in which Arrow, The Flash, Vixen, and Legends of Tomorrow are set. The character of the Flash is able to travel between the Arrowverse, which he calls Earth-1, and any other universe in the multiverse, including what he calls Earth-2 and whatever he calls (if he does indeed give it a name) the Supergirl universe. We now know all that and have reliable sources backing it up. The only thing I can see us discussing right now is whether the Constantine crossover with Arrow retroactively adds the Constantine series to the Arrowverse, which has of course already been discussed before though apparently there are still editors who are not satisfied with the outcome of said discussion. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:26, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

"Arrowverse" is whatever the producers call it. Spin-offs are spun off from a parent show. Cross-overs can happen between spin-offs and parent shows as well as shows that aren't related. Constantine and Supergirl aren't spin-offs so we can't treat them as such. We can write about in-universe stuff as long as it's in the context of real-world information. Given that...flatly stating that all of the shows are in the Arrowverse is wrong. Stating that such-and-such a show is in the Arrowverse/multiverse/whatever while at the same time mentioning it within the context of of the real-world productions (spin-offs, cross-overs, unrelated productions, etc.) is the protocol for writing about fiction. DonQuixote (talk) 20:15, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, this is about the Arrowverse, which is not the multiverse he was talking about. That allows them to include everything, but doesn't make them part of this specific universe.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 20:30, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Until now I haven't head that the Arrowverse is not a multiverse. Can someone give me a link for that? And when it is so, we can change the title for example in DC TV-Multiverse. And about Constantine: You can't say we have already discussed that so we don't need to discuss it again. So why is also Constantine not part of the universe/multiverse. We have a reliable source that says, Constantine is part of the Arrowverse. --Wikiolo (talk) 09:36, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Again, the information on the Arrowverse being a universe within the DC multiverse is in the development section already, not to mention we don't wait for sources to disprove something, we wait for them to prove something – we need a reliable source that states it is a multiverse before we change to that view, not a reliable source that states it is not a multiverse to stop us from making up whatever we want. And you can discuss Constantine if you want. Present your argument, but just remember that we have already decided that the IGN interview, though a reliable source, doesn't actually say what you are claiming it does, so your argument should really focus on countering that point. - adamstom97 (talk) 10:18, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

So I still don't understand, why IGN isn't a reliable source, so when you have discussed it already, you can tell me the reason. And no, I don't know any reliable source that says wether the Arrowverse is a universe or a multiverse, because there aren't any reliable sources as far as I know. So as long as there aren't any official statements, we can decide in the definition, what the Arrowverse is. --Wikiolo (talk) 18:05, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Editors can't make up words or definitions. See WP:OR and WP:VERIFY. DonQuixote (talk) 18:24, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Did you even read what I said?! IGN is reliable, but we don't think the source says what you think it says. If you want to convince us otherwise, then you need to make a new argument on why it does say what you think it says. I don't see why anyone else needs to start your discussion for you, especially when we have already had it previously and come to a clear consensus. And I clearly explained that on Wikipedia if we don't have a source specifying something, that doesn't mean that we get to choose the specifics ourselves. That is ridiculous. So unless someone has a reliable source stating that the Arrowverse is a multiverse rather than a universe, which I doubt since we already have a source essentially stating that the Arrowverse is a universe within a DC multiverse, we should continue to refer to the Arrowverse as a universe only. - adamstom97 (talk) 18:30, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I would say that when we don`t know what it is, we shouldn´t call the article Arrowverse. Because as DonQuixote siad: We can't make up words or definitions - and for this article we have the definition: The Arrowverse is a shared fictional universe that is centered on television series airing on The CW, what says explkcit taht it is a universe. But we don´t have any reliable sources for that. And it is wrong to say that it airs at The CW because Vixen airs on CW Seed. It´s better to call the article DC TV-unverse or DC TV-multiverse. And yeah, here is a source that Supergirl comes to the Arrowverse. --Wikiolo (talk) 21:29, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

We call it "Arrowverse" because we actually have a source showing the producers refer to it as the Arrowverse. So, yes, that is correct. Secondly, the Arrowverse only exists in the CW (or the CW Seed, let's not nitpick here). Constantine and Supergirl are crossovers. Yes, they exist in their universe, but they are not part of the universe. They don't impact it. Again, this is like Sleepy Hollow and Bones, we aren't going to create a page about their "universe" and pretend like somehow because they had a crossover event that it someway makes them connected across the board. That's not the case. They are separate entities, that happen to exist in the same "world". Arrow, Flash, LoT, Vixen don't just exist in the same world, but their worlds impact each other. What happens on one show impacts another. They are also direct spin-offs of each other, with Arrow as the parent and the rest siblings. Constantine and Supergirl are not spin-offs, they are their own shows that have a crossover event. As for the Supergirl episode, that's the Flash going to her, not her coming to the Flash.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 21:59, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Regarding Constantine, it was confirmed by both Marc Guggenheim and Wendy Mericle that Matt Ryan's appearance on Arrow retroactively incorporated the events of the NBC Constantine series into official Arrowverse Canon.DigificWriter (talk) 06:04, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

How the Multiverse/Universes/worlds/Arrowverse/whatever! are/is connected to each other can be discribed in the article. Here we should just talk how to call the multiverse, in what the shows are part of. Also Supergirl does crossover the shows in "Welcome to Earth-2" so I would say the fact that it happens in another universe is just part of the plot that should be discribed in the text and not in the title. --Wikiolo (talk) 10:37, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Useful quote

I'm not entirely sure where to include this, but I think we should (especially for those who still want to say that Constantine is part of this universe). It is from the THR article about the Supergirl crossover, which is already on the article: "The DC TV bosses have always been clear about the fact that Arrow, The Flash and Legends of Tomorrow exist in a different universe than Supergirl, so they had to establish a clear reason why Barry and Kara would meet. "Flash and Arrow exist in a universe where there is no Superman or you would have heard about him, and certainly Supergirl as well," Berlanti says." - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:19, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

What are you thinking of using this for? It doesn't seem to say anything that we don't already. - adamstom97 (talk) 20:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Maybe just some where to further cite the fact that the universe is only the CW shows (plus Vixen). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:02, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't think we should take this as 'these are the only shows in the universe', especially because Vixen isn't listed. This is more of 'these shows are all in one universe' but Supergirl isn't. So I don't think this is a confirmation of Constantine not being in the universe in any way. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:27, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

supergirl moving to cw

suppergirl is moving to the cw shouldt it be added — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:41:C101:93C0:719D:60D3:D4F2:F449 (talk) 18:24, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

This page is for Arrow-verse series, not just series on The CW. I'm sure we'll be able to work on a more definite solution once the second season starts airing, and we find out if the channel-move affects the in-universe events. Alex|The|Whovian^? 02:01, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Supergirl moving forward

So since Supergirl is definitely on The CW now, how should we handle the way we portray the info on the article. I still agree that the series is not part of the Arrowverse (the universe/Earth that The Flash, Arrow and Legends occupies) as clearly defined by the Flash episode they had this season. However, Pedowitz just announced that it will be involved with the large crossover event they do each year now. So my thinking to best represent the series until the season starts, would to not make it a level 3 section under "Crossovers", but a level 2 section between "Television series" and "Web series". To me, that would represent that it is not an Arrowverse show, but is more connected to them now then it was when it was on CBS. Thoughts? Additionally, given the fact that Supergirl will be in the crossover event, it should probably be added to the recurring characters table, since there is a good chance many actors will cross between both universes. Or we can just cross that bridge when it happens. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:05, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I would rather wait until we know more, personally. - adamstom97 (talk) 20:36, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

The Multiverse table

I like the idea of the idea, but didnt Geoff Johns say that every DC TV show currently airing alongside the DCEU is in the Multiverse?? shouldnt that be added too??Phoenix (talk) 20:55, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

I also think the table is a good idea, and something we should discuss further, but for now it is really a whole lot of unnecessary in-universe stuff. We should probably work on it somewhere else first. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:26, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

A table to do what? This is a page for the Arrowverse, not the DC Multiverse. The fact that the Arrowverse exists in the multiverse doesn't mean that the multiverse should be covered here outside of a mentioning that it exists.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:46, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Speaking of the table, while Supergirl and Constantine aren't directly a part of the Arrowverse. I believe both shows be put under the Miscellaneous section under Related series since the crossovers have had or are going to have an effect on the shows they've crossed over with. Jester66 (talk) 04:39, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

If you are talking about the infobox, then I would support this. We refer to them as related in the navbox, and it still separates them from the other series. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:29, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, adamstom97 I was referring to the infobox. Jester66 (talk) 07:10, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Related has generally always meant "directly connected". Constantine and Supergirl do not share a directly connected link to these shows. I.E. They aren't spin-offs from a parent show. That said, we already link to the "Arrowverse" anyway, and no longer link to individual shows in their respective "Related shows" section.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 18:33, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

They don't have to be spin-offs to be related to the show, for example soap operas Another World had crossovers with As the World Turns, Guiding Light and The Brighter Day. They weren't directly connected except for all being produced by Procter & Gamble Productions, and a few characters crossed over into each show and are categorized under Related series, I believe we could do that for Constantine and Supergirl. Or we could put both Constantine and Supergirl under Crossovers under the Miscellaneous section of the Arrowverse infobox. Jester66 (talk) 20:42, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

If we could put them under "Crossovers" in the infobox then that seems perfect to me. - adamstom97 (talk) 02:52, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

With the four-day crossover this fall, should we add a "Crossovers" tab to the infobox with Supergirl under it? Jester66 (talk) 02:07, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and add the Crossiver bit like we discussed above, but if the four-day crossover turns out to mean that Supergirl is joining the Arrowverse, then that show would be moved to the normal section then. - adamstom97 (talk) 03:31, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Related discussion

A discussion has been started at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television#Marvel and DC series that relates to this article. Alex|The|Whovian^? 08:11, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

This episode intersects with ...

I've noticed that there's been multiple note tags added at Arrow episodes, The Flash episodes, Legends of Tomorrow and Supergirl, of the content "This episode intersects the *** episode", "This episode continues in the *** episode", "This episode is a continuation of *** episode", etc. Do we really need these? At what point is it too much, or original research? We already have the table of crossovers on this page. Alex|The|Whovian^? 07:19, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't think we need them. It all stemmed from the fact that IPs were making edits to the Flash/Arrow crossover episodes to state they were continuations. Once those were added, everyone thought it was fine for all episode for at least some connection to have them. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:38, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

It really depends on the context. If it's just an intersection, it's not really needed. If the other episode starts or continues a plotline and it would be advantageous to view the other episode, it probably doesn't hurt. All that is needed is a note in the episode summary though. If there is a season article, then the note can be outside the episode table. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:47, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Series regulars across the verse

I think we need to be careful with things like Barrowman and others being series regular across the universe (but not a particular show) and putting them in each show's infobox and/or cast section. My feeling is, if they don't actually get listed in a particular show's credits, then they shouldn't be listed that way on the show's page. Every show stands on its own. If they don't, then obviously we would indicate it here.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:28, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I think we've done a good job at the moment with this. For example, Cassidy has the deal, but we don't know where she's actually appearing outside of Arrow, so she hasn't been listed elsewhere yet. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:47, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

RE: DC Television Universe

@Fawkstraht: Editors can't make up terms. For example, we can't start using the term "petrol-fueled vehicle", rather we have to use the common name, such as car, or a proper name, such as Ford Mustang. Similarly, we can't start calling this the "DC Television Universe" because it's neither a common name or a proper name--it's a term you literally made up. The name of the game is citing secondary sources (and to a limited extent, primary sources). If you think "Arrorwverse" doesn't have enough reliable sources, then, if failing to find other terms supported by sources, we should fall back on the common terms, such as spin-off. DonQuixote (talk) 18:24, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for this DonQuixote. And just to be crystal clear, "Arrowverse" is the official name of this universe, literally "from the horses mouth" as the producers have stated such. And we have other names that have been used by the media to refer to the universe, again supported by sources. - Favre1fan93 (talk)

Supergirl going Arrowverse confirmed?

I came across this interesting thing, saying Supergirl will in fact be joining the Arrowverse permanently, not sure how accurate this is, but it sure is an interesting development if it's true. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/08/08/supergirl-merges-with-cw-earth-one-in-flashpoint-and-other-dc-tv-rumours/ Jester66 (talk) 02:18, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, this is the general thought by fans. Bleeding Cool is not a reliable source (most of the time) and this is a case where it isn't. WP:NORUSH. All the info and actual working of the crossover and any possible integration of Supergirl will come in due time and be properly reported on. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:04, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Supergirl in relation to Arrowverse

So I've been seeing conflicting reports everywhere that Supergirl will soon be part of the Arrowverse and that Cassidy, Barrowman and Miller will also be on Supergirl. What's the actual confirmation about these things? Also will this page be updated, if those reports are true? Jester66 (talk) 00:28, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

At this time, it is unclear if Supergirl is in the Arrowverse (the crossover may help deal with that). Cassidy, Barrowman and Miller's deals are for all shows except Supergirl as has been reported. As soon as reliable info comes out either way on Supergirl, yes this article will be updated. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:57, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I found these and I am not sure how reliable these are but they mention Cassidy, Barrowman and Miller appearing on Supergirl.

http://screenrant.com/katie-cassidy-arrow-flash-legends-tomorrow-supergirl/ http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2016/07/john-barrowman-could-now-pop-up-in-the-flash-legends-and-supergirl/ http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/05/13/legends-of-tomorrow-stars-new-status-on-the-cws-dc-comics-series/ http://zap2it.com/2016/07/arrow-john-barrowman-promoted-the-flash-supergirl-legends-of-tomorrow/ Jester66 (talk) 19:29, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

What defines what is and isn't part of the Arrowverse? I would have thought that The Flash crossing over onto Supergirl would have been the establishing factor of defining Supergirl as part of the Arrowverse since it's now clear that all the characters exist in the same plane of existence and could cross-over at any time in theory (plus there's also the behind the scenes factors of having the same creators/producers/etc.). Sure Supergirl (at least for now) is in a parallel universe rather than in the same universe like the other four shows, but I don't see that as a reason not to be considered part of the Arrowverse (we don't consider Earth-2 and any events that happen there as not being part of the Arrowverse, for example). -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 17:41, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

You kinda answered your own question, it is in a parallel Earth. The only things included from Earth 2 are related to The Flash as a whole, if at all. The crossovers didn't involve Earth 2 and neither do the characters. The page itself is about the Universe (Earth 1 as they call it in the show) as opposed to all of the series, although why it is like that I'm not sure. But the general idea is that the page is for shows that are primarily set within Earth 1, with the Earth 2 events effecting Earth 1 characters--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 18:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Well as I said I don't see why being in a parallel Earth should disqualify it, particularly when they do crossover (not that crossing over needs to be a definite requirement). As long as they are all in the same shared creative fictional universe, which they are. Perhaps something should be added to the page to state that shows specifically need to be set in Earth-1. -18:54, 25 August 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnonWikiEditor (talk • contribs)

Of course, it's very likely Supergirl's status will be resolved more definitively on its own relatively soon when the shows return, but I was just wondering if there was a definitive reason right now. -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 19:03, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

What defines what is and isn't part of the Arrowverse?

In terms of an encyclopaedia, reliable sources--preferably the creators of the shows, if not then common usage (rather than fringe). DonQuixote (talk) 21:11, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Makes sense. Figured it probably has something to do with needing a source to specifically say it. -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 22:18, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

And, obviously, if the series is set in a parallel universe, then it can't be part of the same universe. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:45, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

"Arrowverse", like the MCU, is just the name for fictional creative realm these shows reside. Within that creative realm, multiple physical universes can reside (such as Earth-2). -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 22:18, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

No, it is the name of the shared universe that Arrow, Flash, Legends, and Vixen are set in. This is notable because of the production implications, and the reception to it, so it isn't just some irrelevant in-universe trivia either. At the moment, Supergirl is a completely separate series set in a completely separate universe that happened to have a one-episode crossover, so it isn't set in the shared universe, but is obviously worth mentioning here in some capacity. It is likely that the series will be added to the Arrowverse during this season in some way, and if/when that happens, its status will be updated here. This is the same case as the DCEU films; they are in a separate, parallel universe, but if any of them ever depicted the Arrowverse in some way then we would add them here. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:28, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Based on this post, it doesn't appear that you and I are in disagreement. -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 22:57, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

In this recent interview, when asked if he planning on bringing Supergirl into the Arrowverse, Kreisberg stated, "Not for her entire world, but Kara will be traveling from her dimension to our dimension, “our” being the world that The Flash, Arrow, and Legends lives in." I guess this implies that Supergirl will forever be set in a discrete universe, not worthy of leaving the "crossovers" section of this article. Kailash29792 (talk) 05:42, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Berlanti Comments on Supergirl / Other Shows, One Universe

“It was fun being on CBS, but CW, we obviously make a lot of these shows with CW. We obviously have a shorthand,” Berlanti said of the future of “Supergirl,” adding, Story-wise, it’s fun to think of the shows actually truly all in one universe.” https://variety.com/2016/tv/news/variety-night-in-the-writers-room-drama-panel-greg-berlanti-supergirl-1201795796/ -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 23:53, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

But Andrew Kreisberg has confirmed that the Supergirl universe will not merge with the Arrowverse, known internally as Earth-1. Although Kara will indeed enter the Arrowverse for crossover episodes, she will only be there temporarily. If the writers introduce Earth-1 versions of Kara and her friends, it would be relieving. Kailash29792 (talk) 15:14, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

But they're all part of the same fictional universe. Jmj713 (talk) 22:01, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. It's the creative fictional universe. Within that there can be multiple worlds/dimensions/physical universes/whatever - it's all still part of the same universe ("Arrowverse"). -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 22:18, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

No. The "universe" aka "Arrowverse" is all the "Earth-1" shows, so Arrow, The Flash, and Legends of Tomorrow. Supergirl exists peripherally (aka in the multiverse), hence why that series is only listed in the "Crossover" section of the article. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:32, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

That's appears to be a completely arbitrary distinction created by certain editors here. It's certainly not sourced here, conflicts with a direct quote from the creator of the Arrowverse, and also conflicts with the meaning and conditions of Fictional universe (noted in the first sentence) and also shared universe. -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 22:57, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

No, it is simple common sense (which is allowed on Wikipedia). If something is in a separate universe, then it can't be in the same universe. Obviously. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:38, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

But Supergirl is part of the same shared fictional universe... -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 23:47, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

If the meaning of "Arrowverse" was changed to mean multiple Earths, we would have considered Supergirl a part of it. Kailash29792 (talk) 01:33, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

And the producers have confirmed as such that "Arrowverse" only applies to the world in which Arrow, Flash and Legends inhabits (and Vixen). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:25, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

The point is that editors can't decide what is or isn't part of the Arrowverse as that would be original research/interpretation. DonQuixote (talk) 02:56, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

The editors are not deciding; they are editing based on the news articles and interviews. Besides, the Arrowverse is more of a physical place than a franchise which Kreisberg has confirmed Supergirl is not a part of, even if she visits it as a guest. Kailash29792 (talk) 03:02, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Where has it been defined that the Arrowverse is a "physical place" rather than a fictional shared universe? Also, the producer's quote in that article does not confirm Supergirl is not part of the Arrowverse, only that her physical world would not be merging with the other. In regards to basing edits on interviews, going back to the beginning the quote that started this whole thread was from Berlenti himself that described all four shows as being "truly all in one universe". -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 03:20, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) @Kailash29792 I was commenting against this: But they're all part of the same fictional universe. That's an editor deciding what is or what isn't part of the Arrowverse. If you check the above discussion, I actually said what you just said: In terms of an encyclopaedia, reliable sources--preferably the creators of the shows, if not then common usage (rather than fringe). DonQuixote (talk) 03:21, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

I didn't say "rather than a fictional shared universe" (which it actually is), but "rather than a franchise". If the "Arrowverse" referred to a multiverse comprising of Earth-1 (inhabited by Amell's Oliver Queen and Gustin's Barry Allen), Earth-2 (inhabited by Sears' Zoom), Earth-3 (inhabited by Shipp's Jay Garrick) and Kara Danvers' unnamed Earth, I would have supported you guys. But as far as I know, it refers to only one universe (Earth-1), which Earth-2 and the unseen Earth-3 are not part of. E.g.: If there was a series focusing on Jay Garrick and happening only in Earth-3, it would still not be recognised as a part of the Arrowverse, the name given to Earth-1 by the real world. Favre1fan93, am I wrong anywhere here? Kailash29792 (talk) 03:33, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

In terms of a general encyclopaedia, it's not about Earth-1 vs Earth-2 vs Earth-3 etc., rather it's about show 1 vs show 2 vs show 3 etc. That is, the producers (and to a lesser extent the media if the idea is spread wide enough...common usage vs fringe) decide what shows are part of the franchise. So it is about the franchises rather that "universes" as "universes" are in-universe style of writing. DonQuixote (talk) 03:39, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

The producers created these shows, and set them in the same universe (which they named the "Arrowverse"). They then made Supergirl, and set it in a separate universe (meaning, it does not share the same fictional universe as the other shows, the "Arrowverse"). They have since had Supergirl crossover with The Flash, but did so by having Barry literally leave the Arrowverse in The Flash and arrive in Supergirl's universe on Supergirl. Now they are having another crossover, but they have made it clear that Supergirl is only popping over to the Arrowverse temporarily, and they want to keep Supergirl separate from the Arrowverse shows. Therefore, logically we cannot say that Supergirl is part of the Arrowverse because it is literally set in a universe separated from the shared Arrowverse onscreen. We also cannot say it per Wikipedia rules, because the producers have told us directly that they want to keep Supergirl's universe separate from the shared Arrowverse. I'm not sure what you think "shared universe" means Anon, as you seem to be using it incorrectly, but as of this moment those are the facts. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:55, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

You're conflating the universes within the fiction (Earth-1, etc.) and the fact that these shows are all part of the same fictional universe of DC shows. Jmj713 (talk) 11:17, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Exactly. A "shared fictional universe" refers to the entire fictional realm, not a particular physical universe within that fictional realm. Also if you want to go the logical route, it makes zero sense to claim that a show like The Flash only takes place partially in this shared fictional universe. If he jumps to Earth-2 or any other Earth, he's obviously very much still in the same shared fictional universe. He may have jumped physical universes within the show, but that is very different from jumping out of the shared fictional universe they are in (which is more or less impossible). The explanation that the Arrowverse is only Earth-1 is very different from how the term developed and or even how it is defined in the article itself. Creatively, Berlanti himself describes all four shows as being "truly all in one universe" (aka the "Arrowverse" / "Berlanti-verse" / etc.) -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 17:12, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

That's just plain wrong. You are confusing a franchise (a real-world collection of works) with a shared universe (a fictional universe in which multiple works of fiction are set). For instance, when Doctor Strange introduces new realities and dimensions, those will not be part of the MCU, which is why director Scott Derrickson said that Doctor Strange is introducing the Marvel Cinematic Multiverse, of which the MCU we know from the previous films and shows is just a part of. If they say that the Arrowverse now refers to the multiverse rather than just one universe within it then we can make that change, but that isn't even what you are suggesting, so I'm not sure what else can be said here. - adamstom97 (talk) 00:16, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

No it's not and I'm not confusing that at all. Shared fictional universe, it refers to the shared fictional realm in which multiple works of fiction are set. Within that realm, multiple physical universes can exist particularly when they're all interacting with each other via characters, setting, plot points, etc. It's everything within those shows: Earth-1, Earth-2, etc. Berlanti himself describes Supergirl with the other shows as "truly one universe". -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 00:29, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Anon, perhaps the word you are searching for is "shared multiverse". And you appear to have misquoted Berlanti. In that source he says, "Story-wise, it’s fun to think of the shows actually truly all in one universe". So he isn't confirming, he is just expressing interest in all of them sharing one universe, which Kreisberg has confirmed will not happen soon. I just hope WB eventually stops confusing us with all this multiverse crap, as if the many timelines in The Flash and Legends of Tomorrow weren't confusing enough. Kailash29792 (talk) 07:28, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

While I disagree with your assessment, I do appreciate you being the one person to actually discuss the quote which was the start of this entire thread, yet thoroughly ignored for some reason by everyone else. -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 09:25, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Anon, sorry for the late reply, I just hoped someone would respond to your statement. But this archived discussion seems to have ended without a mutual agreement, and this section appears to be a continuation of it. And what exactly is my "assessment" you disagree with? Kailash29792 (talk) 12:15, 16 October 2016 (UTC)