Talk:Association football/Archive 23

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History pre-1848

The earliest date in the history section is 1848. Is anything known about the history before that? I'm asking because I recently ran across a legend that the Wampanoag people were playing a similar game when the English colonists arrived at Plymouth Rock in 1620, and that it was brought back to England from there. I had always heard that the English claimed to have invented the game and am curious if the truth is know with any kind of certainty. Ruckabumpkus (talk) 00:48, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Football#Early_history has more details on earlier/similar games. This article is about Association football, which by definition, existed only after 1863. Grant | Talk 01:05, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Would it be appropriate to put that link in the history section, too? Ruckabumpkus (talk) 01:10, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

If you mean this article, I would say "no": before the 19th century there were many different games resembling this game, in various parts of the world. While it has been argued that present day Association football/soccer is linked to the Ancient Greek games phaininda and/or episkuros, there is little evidence for this. There is even less evidence that similar games from outside Europe (such as Marn Grook, Aqsaqtuk, Pahaseman, Cuju etc) influenced the rules devised in England in 1863. The non-European games seem to have been cases of "parallel evolution". In fact, the Football article took its present form , in part, because there was a need for a page linking all the various kinds of football. Grant | Talk 12:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Good enough. After reading the Football#Early_history section, I agree about "parallel evolution." Kicking things around for fun seems to be something that comes naturally to people of every sort. Ruckabumpkus (talk) 14:36, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Duration

Wasn't the standard duration of a match only 80 minutes before, domestic or international play? As I'm thinking it was, but until when? When was it changed to 90 minutes? It could use a mention in the article as I was hoping to find out because I'm unsure myself. Banana Fingers (talk) 18:17, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Fairly sure football matches have always been 90 minutes long, ever since the 19th century. – PeeJay 21:54, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

OK. But what about this, 1960 Asian Cup qualifiers, 80 minute matches. Banana Fingers (talk) 07:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

That's just an anomaly, hence why they felt the need to point it out. Pretty much every football match ever played by adults has been 90 minutes long. – PeeJay 07:31, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Origin

If I may ask, why isn't there even the slightest reference to the true birthplace of football, China? Okay, I understand that the modern football came to be in the UK 1863, but I believe there should be at least an indication to China. It's nowhere to be found here.

So if people are to read this article they might want to know where was it truly invented, as all they can see is, "Modern football, modern football...," etc. So let's perhaps add this to the article?

I apologize for my imperfect English, whereas I'm Estonian. RasmusBE (talk) 23:53, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I think this has been discussed some time ago mate. The page Football has the shared origins of all the different sorts of football whilst the individual variants (Association, American, Gaelic etc) have their specific histories. Hope that helps! Cls14 (talk) 22:57, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Unclear to a reader almost completely unfamiliar with the sport

I'm a non-sports-fan in the United States. I don't even know a lot of the details of American football, baseball, and basketball. But this is the #1 sport of the world as a whole, so with the World Cup being in the news I thought I would have a look and get a vague idea how it works. I already knew that players other than the goalkeeper aren't allowed to use their hands, and that running along with the ball is called dribbling, but that's about it. This article doesn't give me a basic understanding of why the players are running one place instead of another, on the level a small child would have in soccer-playing countries. What's the basic effect of the offside rule, for example? Does it mean that you dribble with your toe never extending past the front of the ball (even though it only matters when there's at most one defender between you and the goal line)? Or does it mean that attempts on goal are normally made from farther back so that two defenders are closer to the goal line? Or does it mean that defenders try to get farther from the goal line than the player with the ball, so that the ball goes out of bounds because kicking it away from the goal line would involve putting part of your foot closer to the goal line than the ball? Or what? I expect that these are really stupid questions to any fan, but there are a lot of people in the world who aren't sports fans. This article should contain the basic explanation that fans absorb by the time they're four years old. It shouldn't be that difficult. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 18:42, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

If you click the hyperlink on offside you can get to this article: Offside (association football). That article should give you a better explanation of the rule. However I agree this sentence in the "Laws" section of this article is rather confusing: "The offside law limits the ability of attacking players to remain forward (i.e. closer to the opponent's goal line) of the ball, the second-to-last defending player (which can include the goalkeeper), and the half-way line.[28]" Maybe someone can reword it or explain offside better in this article. LonelyMarble (talk) 18:52, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

What a coincidence, if you are watching the Argentina - Mexico game maybe you understand offside better. LonelyMarble (talk) 19:02, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the wording was poor. I've changed this to 'receive the ball'; you can move wherever you want on the pitch, and are only offside if you receive the ball in front of two defenders. So it is not offside to run with the ball beyond two defenders, for example. --Pretty Green (talk) 08:36, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree to Dan Wylie-Sears 2. Should I change Laws to Rules? Can someone clarify the article? Do you think this article should be a good article? Do you think I'm asking too many questions? Yes I know I actually am asking too many questions. Leave your replies on my talk page ► ► ► Anish9807 (talk) 09:15, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

They are the Laws not the Rules of the game as shown here : http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/lawsofthegame.html 87.194.162.141 (talk) 09:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Cup-Tied

Guys please assist me.When a player plays for team B in the first round of say a knock out cup,and then plays for team A in the next round of the same cup but he is registered with Team A and was not registered with Team b should the team A be kicked out of the cup or only team B?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cup-tied (talk • contribs) 09:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I assume you are talking about a player on loan as opposed to dual registration. If so in the English FA Cup Team A would be punished. Although he was contracted to A he made the first appearance for B, thus he was tied for all future teams that season. Not sure about other cups though, they all seem to have their own crazy rules! Cls14 (talk) 23:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Table football and subbuteo

I wonder if this article should link to other articles about football-inspired games like table football and subbuteo. At least I think they should be mentioned in this article. sentausa (talk) 09:33, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Notable active players

Ronaldo,brazilian three times FIFA World Player of the YearAlexandre Pato,young brazilian player of AC MilanRonaldinho a brazilian free-kick specialist and exceptional dribbling ability.He has also won the FIFA World Player of the Year two times,Kakà,Adriano,Lionel Messi,young argentine player of FC Barcelona who has already won one time the FIFA World Player of the Year,Diego Forlan,[[Kun Aguero,Zlatan Ibrahimovic famous swedish player of Inter,Ajax,Barcellona,Juventus and currently AC Milan,Samuel Eto'o,Wesley Sneijder,Andrés Iniesta,Cristiano Ronaldo,Portuguese who plays as a winger or a forward for Spanish La Liga club Real Madrid and serves as captain of the Portuguese national team.After moving from Manchester United to Real Madrid in a transfer deal worth £80 million (€94m, US$132m) he became the most expensive player in the football hystory. In addition, his contract with Real Madrid, in which he is to be paid £11 million per year over the following six years, makes him the highest-paid football player in the world.[3]Steven Gerrard the captain of Liverpool,Frank Lampard,Didier Drogba,Francesco Totti the captain of AS Roma,Antonio Cassano,Robinho,Neymar,Frank Ribery,Diego,Arjen Rooben,Anjel Di Maria,Alessandro Del Piero,a italian player of Juventus and "Azzurra" the idolized player of bianconeri supporters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.181.78.32 (talk) 14:57, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

"Single" ball

Isn't the word "single" surperflous in this excerpt from the article: Association Football is played in accordance with a set of rules known as the Laws of the Game. The game is played using a single spherical ball, known as the football.? (This language doesn't appear in the FIFA Laws of the Game.) Is there any sport (other than a mass dodgeball game in grammar school) that uses more than one ball simultaneously?--Casey (talk) 18:37, 1 January 2011 (UTC) Jean marc waz not here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.25.163.74 (talk) 19:37, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Pool or Billiards if you consider it a sport. See your point though and it appears you have already removed the unneeded word "single". Thats fine, but I would ask that you either write "done" under your comment or explain what you did yourself to resolve the issue you had raised. Then the rest of us can easily recognize that its already been resolved. Racerx11 (talk) 02:27, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Lots of sports use more than one ball! Golf and bowling/boules are obvious examples. (In fact these are distant cousins of the pool/billiards family, which evolved from indoor versions of lawn games). So pointing out that only one ball is used is not, strictly speaking, superfluous. If you were explaining soccer to an alien, that's one of the things you'd have to make clear at the start. However "a single spherical ball" contains the fact that it's just one ball, by the use of the "a". TheGrappler (talk) 02:28, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Work needed

This article needs a significant amount of work to be brought back up to FA status. An editor has listed this article for FAR (see Wikipedia:Featured article review/Association football/archive1), but due to the relatively new requirement that talk page notifications be made first, the review is being placed on hold. If work is completed on the article in the near future, the review does not need to proceed. Please let me know if you have any questions. Dana boomer (talk) 20:53, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

--copied from User talk:Hawkeye7

Hi Hawkeye, I am willing to tackle any issues you have with the article. I think it is somewhat unfair to say that it has "few references" it has over 50. I am also not seeing any outstanding issues from the last review, they were all tackled and hence why it was closed as kept. Can you note any specific areas which you think need referencing? Thanks. Woody (talk) 23:39, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks Woody. Unreferenced sections include:

• The first and fourth paragraphs of "History"
• The first, third and fourth paragraphs of "Duration and tie-breaking methods"
• Last paragraph in "Misconduct"
• The whole "Governing bodies" section
• The middle paragraph in "International competitions"
• The first and second paragraphs of "Domestic competitions"

Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:37, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for those Hawkeye7. I've had a run through just now and added references in where I thought they were missing based on what you noted above. Could you please have another look and see if there are any more areas you think are under-referenced. Thanks. Woody (talk) 19:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

--end of copied discussion

I have added some "citation required tags". Would it be possible for the article to briefly say something about Women's football, variants of the game, and football culture rather than simply list their articles under "See also"? Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:12, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I have sorted the citation needed tags. I'll have to think about the others. Woody (talk) 11:49, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I have had some time to think about the requested additions and for the most part I don't see much need for them beyond what is there already. The bottom two paragraphs of the history section basically have "culture" covered, particularly the second paragraph discussing the impact of football on wars. Is there anything in particular you think is missing? The variants of the game are covered in Football. This article is about association football, that which is covered by IFAB's jurisdiction. I don't think another section here, that would essentially duplicate the football page, is needed. Women's football is slightly different, this article is about association football although in reality it concentrates on men's association football. Perhaps we can have a separate section that is a WP:SUMMARY of Women's association football? Woody (talk) 23:54, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

• That would be fabulous. It would be an excellent idea to have a short section with a summary of Women's association football. I'd really appreciate it if you could do that. The work you have done on references is much appreciated, and sufficient to save it from a FAR going ahead. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:50, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

• How does the new section: Association_football#Women's association football work for you? Woody (talk) 17:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Thanks Woody. Much appreciated. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:34, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

• No problem, it was due a spruce up. You've got me started now, my next task is a unified association football navbox to get rid of all those pesky see also links. Woody (talk) 00:58, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

"Association" football?

Resolved

 – Query explained. I'm confident enough that there is no appetite for a full-blown move discussion to nip this in the bud early. —WFC— 13:30, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I am fully aware that what is known as football in the United States differs from what is known as football in Europe and numerous other parts of the word, but, as a European, I have never heard this sport referred to by the name "association football". Perhaps this is the term used within the United States in order to differentiate soccer from what is called "American football"? If so, then it would be proper, in my opinion, to rename the article in such a manner that would reflect:

• Soccer being the most popular football-type sport worldwide,
• "Football" being a word that a majority of readers would associate with it (soccer), and
• "Association football" being a term someone from without the United States does not readily understand or associate with soccer.

One could, of course, argue, that the English-speaking audience is well familiar with all the terms used above. Hovever, since English is spoken worldwide, I feel that the English-language Wikipedia should consider a more internationalised point of view when it comes to matters like sport, culture, and so on. I'd like to hear inputs on this. sfaefaol 12:37, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

In short, because Europeans will not tolerate soccer alone, given that most people wordwide (taking into account all languages) either call it football, or call it something which is a transliteration of the words "foot" and "ball". The only viable names are association football or football (soccer), and we've had both over the years. In any case, the first eight words of the lead dealt with any ambiguity, soccer redirects to this article, and we were able to make use of piped links, like this one. —WFC— 13:30, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Follow-up: I agree, there has already been a discussion related to this dispute of the article's name, barring the need for any further deliberations. Unfortunately, [...] (edit: there is no section on the main talk page dedicates to the naming dispute. For future reference, Article name) are nowhere to be found on this talk page, and I (somewhat naïvely) assumed no one had had the initiative to change this. Having read the arguments of both parties, I can only say the following:

The most stable way to name the article is, indeed, Association football. It is not the most correct by most standards (democratically, the majority rule – being all those people who use either the word "football" or translations of it – should be reason enough to change the name immediately to football; systematically, it makes sense to make Football redirect to this page, with links to other sports in a disambiguation page. For some reason, it is preferred to have a page named "Football" which serves a kind of portal to all types of football played worldwide, including association football, number of speakers familiar with the term notwithstanding), but often, I gather, strict correctness in a have-content-that-is-valid-and-reasonable-no-matter-where-the-person-reading-it-is-from kind of way is an objective with lower priority than reaching consensus (i.e. pleasing the greatest possible number of readers). So, naturally, Wikipedians have resorted to a utilitarian, middle-of-the-road solution.

This is not intended to stir up spirits on this topic; of course it's the content of the article that counts. I just thought the main discussion page needed a summary of the discussion, and I have provided it. Please adjust as you see fit, the above is just my understanding. sfaefaol 16:09, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

It is already listed and linked to at the top of the page. We already have enough notice of the naming issue on this page. As well as the edit notice (Template:Editnotices/Page/Talk:Association football) we also have the two tags at the top of this page:

I don't think anything more than that is needed. Woody (talk) 21:48, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Missing ) in Gameplay section

The second sentence in the first paragraph under Gameplay ends: "(or soccer ball. " It needs a closing ")". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.203.18 (talk) 17:02, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Done, thank you for the correction. Woody (talk) 17:14, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Sending off clarification.

We should really correct the section of the rules dealing with red cards. At this point it states that once a player is given a red card they are sent off and cannot be replaced. This is factually incorrect. At the current time there is no law that prohibits a starting player who has been sent off from being replaced. The rule was mistakenly taken out during the last revision of the laws and is yet to be put back in. The only relevant laws state that a substitute sent off prior to kickoff (can be replaced) and that a substitute sent off after the kickoff (cannot be replaced) (Both Law 3). In Law 12 there it states that a sent off player must leave the playing area immediately. The only vaguely relevant law deals with a referee having to confirm the substitution, but there is no explicit law to prevent a sent off player being replaced on the pitch by another.

I realise this may be argued with, and if so, I welcome someone citing relevant documentation :). Iajanus (talk) 10:48, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

the word 'Association', is a mistranslation of 'FIFA'

from Urdu to English, or not? In American English, words have meanings, if it (association) does not mean something, the word should be deleted. CorvetteZ51 (talk) 09:36, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I think it's obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about. The sport is called association football because it was codified by the Football Association, as opposed to rugby football, which was codified at Rugby School. – PeeJay 10:17, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

PeeJay, you wrote...The sport is called association football...If what you wrote is true, the 'a' should be upper case (because it is a proper name?), is that what you meant? Thanks for the info, by the way.CorvetteZ51 (talk) 10:00, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

No, the 'a' should not be upper case. Similarly, the 'r' in 'rugby football' is lower case even though it refers to Rugby School. – PeeJay 11:55, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Shouldn't it mention in the article that soccer is more of a North American term whereas Football is not? Just wondering.(Kanesham 20:45, 16 September 2011 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kanesham (talk • contribs)

Soccer entomology is in the article already.Fasttimes68 (talk) 21:52, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Entomology is the study of insects... – PeeJay 15:54, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Association Football

Okay, sorry if this sort of thing has been discussed before but regarding the debate on the name of Association Football; Note the official names of the following clubs...

Sunderland A.F.C, Bradford City A.F.C, Leeds United A.F.C, Hull City A.F.C, Oldham Athletic A.F.C, AFC Darwen, A.C. Milan (Associazione Calcio Milan) - Association Football Milan (English translation)

It is a small list but I'm sure it isn't exhaustive but all the AFC's above mean 'Association Football Club'. Interesting to note that (Milan excepted) all the clubs in the list are from the north of England. There are a lot of clubs that just use F.C. as well.

AFC Bournemouth is an exception as here it means Athletic Football Club Bournemouth.

People need to realise that there are different codes of football and before these football variations were codified, there were plenty of earlier forms of football.

Look at some other naming examples in other codes of Football...

Saracens Football Club - (Rugby Football), London Irish Rugby Football Club - (Rugby Football), Hull Football Club - (Rugby League Football), Wigan Warriors Rugby League Football Club - (Rugby League Football), Carlton Football Club - (Australian Football) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Duarcain (talk • contribs) 10:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Saracens and Boothroyd's Watford were indistinguishable to be fair. —WFC— 11:18, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Associazione Calcio means Football Club, not Association Football... 31.16.48.131 (talk) 05:32, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more! Football is a generic term which is used for the larger part to mean association football. Wikipedia being a global resource needs to ensure that it uses inclusive language which can be understood by the widest audience possible. I find the term association football a little old fashioned but by the same token some traditionalists shirk at the word soccer. Either term is more inclusive than simply writing football. Vic the Inhaler (talk) 11:17, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Number of countries

I just noticed the number of countries at the top of the page ("At the turn of the 21st century the game was played by over 250 million players in over 200 countries, making it the world's most popular sport."). As far as I know, the aren't even 200 countries in the entire world, so maybe this should be changed... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.45.231.127 (talk) 01:19, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

As far as you know? Your knowledge clearly doesn't extend very far, because according to this article, there are 203 sovereign states on Earth. – PeeJay 22:41, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

@PeeJay - you're being a little unfair and rather rude towards the first user. Defining "sovereign states" is a difficult process, and is open to quite a few interpretations. The 203 mentioned by you includes states that many people (and certainly most national governments) would not consider legitimate (ie, Transnistria). The UN recognises 194 states, and if the original user was going by that consideration your insulting response is unhelpful and unnecessary. ~~Aerach~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.129.71.53 (talk) 19:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

football pitch areas?

There are more than one football pitch standard... The standards are knowed by your areas. In the article illustration (please ADD THIS INFORMATION at the article) the standard is ~4136 m². — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.103.31.154 (talk) 13:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

First played section

I propose changing the first played section to England to reflect the fact that britain is neither a country (UK) nor a football playing nation (which is England). Any objections? --Richardeast (talk) 16:45, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Soccerman977, 23 June 2011

Soccer or Futbol has a boys world cup ever four years and so do the girls. Soccer or Futbol is in the Olmypics to. Soccerman977 (talk) 20:56, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

This info is already in the article. Also, I think you mean "men" and "women", not "boys" and "girls". – PeeJay 21:55, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

He could mean the FIFA sanctioned age restricted cups (Under 21, Under 18 etc) Cls14 (talk) 08:07, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

First played section

I propose changing the first played section to England to reflect the fact that britain is neither a country (UK) nor a football playing nation (which is England). Any objections? --Richardeast (talk) 16:45, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Soccerman977, 23 June 2011

Soccer or Futbol has a boys world cup ever four years and so do the girls. Soccer or Futbol is in the Olmypics to. Soccerman977 (talk) 20:56, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

This info is already in the article. Also, I think you mean "men" and "women", not "boys" and "girls". – PeeJay 21:55, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

He could mean the FIFA sanctioned age restricted cups (Under 21, Under 18 etc) Cls14 (talk) 08:07, 29 June 2011 (UTC)