Talk:Athens

Climate

Greetings, I would like to state that the climate description of Athens is somewhat too extensive and thus tiring for the average reader to keep his attention. There are too many details in a disorganized manner and on top of that, some arguments appear to be disputed or even wrong. I will present a list of what I think should be changed, feel free to state your opinions:
1. in the 1st paragraph description is being repetitive over the areas to the south and some details are imo unecessary
2. the claim of an average annual temperature of 19.8 is most likely wrong and the source (#20) misinterpreted, as it does not clarify which of the 2 areas (Athens basin or southern Crete) actually has such annual average, while 99% likely it refers to the latter since no station in Athens with at least 20 years of data comes anywhere close to this value
3. Athens is warm indeed, but it has potential rivals on whether it is the warmest city in continental Europe, both within Greece and not (e.g. Piraeus, its port city and Seville and Almeria, Spain) which should be also mentioned
4. in the 2nd paragraph, the rain shadow effect also applies for the mountains to its north (Parnitha, Dirfys), it probably wouldn't be difficult to find a source on this
5. it's again being repetitive regarding industrialization which was also mentioned in the 1st paragraph
6. I suggest internal links should be provided when mentioning north and south parts of the metro area, like Kifisia for the north and Piraeus or Elliniko for the south
7. regarding snow description, again too many unecessary details without a clear statement about the actual snowfall frequency and intensity
8. in the 3rd paragraph, I believe the description of the urban heat island (UHI) could be summerized in a somewhat smaller text as it's again being a little repetitive using 2 long sentences.
9. furthermore, the source claiming that some stations do not experience UHI is perhaps too old and contradicted by the source #20 which clearly states the strong effect of UHI in the greater Athens basin area
10. in the last small paragraph, it should be clarified that both Eleusina and Tatoi are parts of Athens metro area and not suburbs Syllynqt (talk) 07:51, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree on point 10, though the rest seems fine. For point 2 the Greek verbatim translation is straightforward including both Athens Basin and S.Crete. Point 3 would probably fall under WP:synth and one would need a verbatim source for a comparative statement like this (which reminds me that this should also be edited out from Almeria article). The rest also are RS which are complementary rather contradicting to each other. Weatherextremes (talk) 14:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

In point 2 what I get is they mention the Athens basin as one of the warmest areas along with southern Crete, by pointing out possibly the highest value among these two without clarifying where the value refers to, however we have data that suggest only southern Crete can reach these values for a time series longer than a few individual years while even for the warmest areas in Athens, a value of 19.8c would most likely be a record high annual temperature rather than an average one or alternatively it could be an average one but for only a short period of very recent years, thus not suitable for comparisons of the Athens area with other places backed by 30-year averages of climatic data. In point 3 I would say that the source is inadequate to justify the claim for Athens to be the undisputable warmest city in cont. Europe as by mean annual temperature there are several other contenders for this "title". I doubt there's a reliable source that makes such a direct comparison however I suggest to either mention all cities/places that come close to being the warmest or not mention it at all in order to be accurate. Last but not least, don't forget point 9, where the source looks to be more than 20 years old and thus not so accurate anymore, given also the fact that the more recent and reliable (from the national meteorological agency) source #20 says otherwise. The remaining points are indeed complementary that would only make the article more concise and easier to read. Syllynqt (talk) 16:00, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not work like this. As long as RSs support the edits (and all of the above are such) we are good to go. Weatherextremes (talk) 00:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

The source #20 clearly states the two extremes of avg temps observed in Greece, without attributing any of the values to a specific place. Neither is there a verbatim statement that says the Athens area in particular has a 19.8c average annual temp. While the available reliable data we have do not support such a claim either. So by all means claiming that Athens is the undisputed warmest area in Europe is not a reliable evidence-backed statement and should either be removed from the article, or at least mention the degree of uncertainty around it. 2A02:587:C270:EB82:90BE:98F8:6AB6:CD2D (talk) 07:26, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

There are also similar comments on the wiki page of Seville which are also backed by fairly weak sources, claiming the city to also be the warmest in Europe.. since as you say we cannot make comparisons among cities solely relying on data from official stations, then we rather remove all these statements completely, until an official institution or a peer reviewed study makes a claim on the matter. Syllynqt (talk) 09:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello, I came here from the page Thessaloniki as I saw this page mentioned. I agree with some things you have said. Definetly Athens shouldn't start with that paragraph, as the main feature of its climate is a Mediterranean climate with hot summers, not being the hottest city in Europe (which is true, I'll show a better source below) and as you say the annual mean is not 19.8 celsius either, as the 3 stations shown in the climate section show 19.2 , 18.6 and 17.8 annual averages.

The climate section needs a proper cleanup, since Athens is a big city with different geographical conditions, I would say that the annual average of Athens is between 18-19 celsius based on the climate boxes, that would be a good start. But I would also add they go from 16 celsius in the highest altitude areas of the municipality of Athens up to 19.8 celsius locally in the warmest area of the Athens Basin, just as the NOA source says. I wouldn't delete that, I would just specify it better. So I also agree with Weatherextremes point.

I also agree with Weatherextremes that there is no need to make comparisons with other cities, since you have mentioned Seville I have checked that source of the Seville page and it seems an official organisation from the European Union so that's a completely reliable source, just as the one on Athens being the hottest (it is the hottest as it holds the WMO European record) I would change both of the actual sources regarding that here in the Athens page for a Euronews source I have found (since it's more reliable) but definetly I wouldn't delete that claim, as Athens holds the actual hottest temperature record in Europe thus is the hottest city by extreme temperatures. But definetly that's not the main climate feature and the article shouldn't start like that. It needs a proper cleanup.

Here is the Euronews source: https://www.euronews.com/2022/06/24/europes-first-chief-heat-officer-explains-how-athens-is-preparing-for-severe-heatwaves WikiEditor1890 (talk) 17:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree in general, I just object to the fact that since there are multiple sources for multiple cities claiming to be "the warmest" they naturally contradict to each other. Athens is very warm, Seville is also very warm, but the statement "Athens is the warmest city in mainland Europe by annual avg temp" in my opinion is wrong, as 1st the existing sources just say "the warmest" without mentioning which criteria they use, which could very well be as you said the record high temp which is held by the Athens area. And secondly the source #20 is written in Greek and the sentence that includes the 19.8c is very vague and not clear if it is referring to the Athens area or to Southern Crete. Currently there are no official stations with more than a few years in operation in the Athens area that go near to this value, the warmest being Piraeus at 19.4c. On the contrary, in southern Crete there are several that exceed 20c. Regarding Seville, it could be considered the warmest by summer highs, or by winter averages. There are sources here and there for this. But regarding avg annual temp, there is none. Syllynqt (talk) 17:34, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

WikiEditor1890 makes some interesting comments which gave me an idea. Actually 16C is not the lowest avg. annual T in Metropolitan Athens but rather less than 11C in Parnitha and it can reach up to 20.4C in Nea Smyrni from official NOA stations. However the data are for a shorter time series but still marginally acceptable as per WMO guidelines on accepting shorter times series to monitor climate change. How about we go roughly with the climate section of the Athens metropolitan area (it took me forever to source it and write it up). A shorter concrete summary can replace the introduction of the section. The 19.8C should definitely not go as it is from the National Met Office of Greece but as WikiEditor1890 suggests it can be better explained. Comparative statements between city climates are nearly irrelevant and should be avoided in order to safeguard the article against WP:synth. Just my two cents Weatherextremes (talk) 19:51, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

There could be a whole separate section called Climate of Athens (metro area) as there is one for the Climate of Istanbul due to the many different climates existing within the area. The summary of the city though should be cleaned up of the unnecessary details and very old sources (specifically about the urban heat island effect which date back to 1985) and refer strictly to the center or at most to places within the urban area. The 19.8 source is a game of words though the thing we all know is that excluding a few official NOA stations with very short time series, no area in the Athens urban area comes close to that number. I guess we all agree to leave comparisons with mean annual temperatures aside. Athens (metro area) could be the warmest area in Europe by extreme high temperature as the record holder, but there's nothing else that could back this claim coming from an official source. On a side note, in the Athens metro area climate section, the sentence with the 20.6c avg of Glyfada is more misleading than helping things and since its an unofficial station with very few years in operation it simply has to go. Syllynqt (talk) 20:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

A whole new article is too much work which I can't do on my own now but I would happily contribute to one. Right now Nea Smyrni from the official NOA station and for its whole time series which is more than 10 years beats the 19.8C HNMS value. So we do have a good indication that the warmest areas of Athens can potentially reach even as close as 21.0C at least in the most recent times (Glyfada for example is about to turn to 20.7C annual avg. T but I agree that since its a private station we can focus on official NOA stations). These are things we can't ignore. For example accepting Parnitha and not Nea Smyrni is cherry picking and not consistent especially considering the fact that these are the only official stations for these locations within Athens backed up by NOA sources. They somehow need to be addressed in the article in order to give to the reader the whole picture Weatherextremes (talk) 04:54, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree for Nea smirni to be possibly included but for both Parnitha and Nea smirni and consequently for any other station, it has to be specified that the time series available is shorter and more recent than the typical 1981-2010 or 1991-2020 we find in most other articles, so that we help readers not to make wrong assumptions or comparisons with disimilar data. Syllynqt (talk) 07:35, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

And again we have to clarify which avg value is used, simple average or average with another formula, and use the one which is used in most other articles as I see the avg for near smirni with the noa formula is 20 and not 20.4 Syllynqt (talk) 07:54, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I am afraid anything other that simple avg Ts will render values uncomparable internationally, thus creating consistency problems in EN wiki. Weatherextremes (talk) 22:42, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I have made an attempt to improve the text of the climate section according to what we pointed out in our discussion above, please check it out and give some feedback! Syllynqt (talk) 19:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

yep, I think you do it justice. Short, concise and takes almost everything into account what we discussed. We could add a couple more things but even if left like this the reader gets a good idea. Weatherextremes (talk) 22:53, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

It's okay for me too, I've just did a small change (actually an improvement as I have added more text) based on the sources. Notice what I've said a month ago, both of the sources talk about extreme heatwaves and the appointment of "heat officers" because of the severe hot temps Athens can get (as it actually holds the WMO record for Europe) I have added some text to be precise with the sources. WikiEditor1890 (talk) 13:47, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I reinstated the source that verbatim mentions Athens is the hottest in mainland Europe which is found at the very top under the title. Also I took out the word heavily which seems too strong. Weatherextremes (talk) 18:54, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Oops sorry guys. I made a mistake which I fixed now since source is already there from WikiEditor's edit! Just took out the word heavily Weatherextremes (talk) 19:02, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I think we can keep it as it is until new averages for 2001-2030 are released! If you want and have time guys take a tour to other greek cities/towns (especially outside Attica) climates, I've been trying for days to make some improvements by adding missing sources, updating weather boxes etc. In general it looked like a very abandoned section in every article and I think most of them at least look better now. Syllynqt (talk) 19:31, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: okay perfect. For me it's all fine as well!

@Syllynqt: it would be a pleasure, where do you need help? I'm Portuguese so I'm unable to read Greek, but if you have English sources I can help you expanding such articles. And I agree! this page looks perfect as it is right now.

WikiEditor1890 (talk) 20:01, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I guess it would be difficult to find English sources for smaller greek cities, but it would be nice if anyone can find something for the cities of patras and volos, for which I can base my text solely on weather box data so far... Syllynqt (talk) 20:22, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Also another thing I would suggest is to make a new article for the "climate of Athens" like most other European major cities have. Weatherextremes has written a decent text in the Athens metropolitan area page, which could be used as a base and we could enhance it with more weather boxes and any other kind of relevant data and sources, covering the whole metropolitan and even the regional administrative area Syllynqt (talk) 21:38, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree, starting next week I will be on my leave so I might get some extra time. If I do, I might start it. It would be very informative to have various weatherboxes for different Athens areas since the metropolitan area is practically huge. Weatherextremes (talk) 04:55, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Duplicated history

I think most editors realize now that you can't cover modern Athens and ancient Athens in the same breath. I think History of Athens was broken out of here but the break was imperfect. Too much ancient history remains here, not to mention the population of ancient Athens. We need a sharper break which I propose to make. I start by cutting the ancient history out of the "Name" section. No, I'm not going to do this on a painful line-by-line basis. See my sandbox page3 for Athens and my sandbox Page 4 for History of Athens. There is another item. The 10-year Copenhagen Study obsoleted a lot of ideas about the polis. It isn't, for example, per se a city-state. You can find my rewrite of Polis in my sandbox page2. Don't expect too much of these rewrites at first. However you are welcome to comment on any of it. I listen to everything.Botteville (talk) 10:20, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Athens Tower 1.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:23, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Informations about the Malakasa refugee reception centre ?

Hallo, are there any informations about the Malakasa Camp or Malakasa refugee reception centre nearby Athens? --WillkoCultEur2000 (talk) 16:37, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Population figure

Is it 3.8 million (2023) or 3,638,281 (2021)? The lead has both figures in paragraphs 2 and 3. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 01:30, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The typos

how many typos there are it's ridiculous. 2603:6011:8200:1191:3881:3950:110D:8775 (talk) 13:02, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Artist from athens

Please add this topic too 2409:40E3:101F:95BA:91CF:A9FD:D944:9AA7 (talk) 06:25, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Etymology

If the old names were Ἀθῆναι and Ἀθήνη, how come we've got Αθήνα now? Either Αθήνη or Αθήνες would be expected (rebracketings "Setines, Satine, and Astines" mentioned in the last section seem to confirm this). Is the some sort of hypercorrection from the times of Katharevousa? 89.64.69.83 (talk) 03:18, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Wrong photo of the airport.

This is definitely not AIA photo:

Athens#/media/File:Greece-0028 (2215861772).jpg 2A02:85F:F8C6:5B00:7F:66FF:6668:12D7 (talk) 23:50, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Athens’s climate classification

i’ve heard once that Athens is bordering on semi arid climate, and I think it was even written in here. דולב חולב (talk) 13:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

The southern parts of the metropolitan area are semi-arid.

The municipal unit of Athens is Mediterranean. PAper GOL (talk) 13:51, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Also some south areas of downtown Athens are borderline semi-arid.

[1] Weatherextremes (talk) 18:10, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Pictures unrepresentative

The photographs are overwhelmingly about the few ancient and classical buildings. There are none of other aspects of the city, such as modern architecture (1930s-2020s), pollution, airport Just saying. Politis (talk) 18:41, 22 September 2024 (UTC)