Talk:Audie Murphy honors and awards/Archive 1

Archive 1

February 2013

The information to create this list was moved from the main article Audie Murphy, as per suggestions on that article's talk page. — Maile (talk) 15:52, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Order of Precedence for table of military awards

(copied from WP Military History talk page)

What is the preferred method at Military History for listing military awards in a table? The military's website show this: This order. If you are showing the ribbon, the Pentagon has This Way, which is I believe the same thing. Does Wikipedia do it the military's way, or is it by order of when they were awarded? What is the preferred method at Wikipedia? — Maile (talk) 01:56, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Generally by precedence. There are a few ways people do so, sometimes by table and sometimes by reproduction of ribbon bars. —Ed!^(talk) 02:07, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, this is really good. That one for Norman Schwarzkopf is excellent. Thanks. — Maile (talk) 02:29, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

The Schwarzkopf article is a very fine example. I would think that following the service's order of wear would make the most sense. So, the Institute of Heraldry is a good guide for an Army officer, but for officers of the other services you would consult with the specific service's resources on order of wear. EricSerge (talk) 02:44, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Removal (and reinstatement) of Texas Legislative Medal of Honor nomination

Posted by Audiesdad as follows:

On May 6, 2013 Audie Murphy was nominated by unanimous vote of the Defense and Veteran's Affairs Committee of the Texas Legislature to receive a posthumous award of the Texas Legislative Medal of Honor, the highest military award of the State of Texas. The award will be rendered in the Spring–Summer of 2013, by the Governor of the State of Texas. The nominating committee members consisted of the Lieutenant Governor, the Speaker of the House of the Texas Legislature, the Adjutant General of the Texas Armed Forces, the Texas Legislature Chairman of the Defense and Military Installations Committee and the House Chairman of the Defense and Veterans Affairs Committee.

This was only a nomination. The link given was only a generic link and did not verify anything. However, Audiesdad posted the same nomination in 2011. It didn't happen then. The Texas legislature is two houses, and both would have to pass this nomination. It would then go to Governor Rick Perry who would decide whether or not he wants to make the award. It should be posted on this site only when the award is actually given, not when it's just a nomination. — Maile (talk) 01:02, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

As of May 27, 2013:

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) Texas lawmakers have awarded the Legislative Medal of Honor to a Cameron man killed in Afghanistan. The Texas Legislature gives out the award to one person every two years and on Memorial Day gave it to U.S. Army 2nd Lt. Darryn Deen Andrews Of Milam County. Andrews was serving his second tour in Afghanistan with 1st Battalion, 501st Parachute Regiment in September 2009 when his unit was ambushed.The unit was first struck by an improvised explosive device and then by small arms fire, including a rocket-propelled grenade. According to the Army, he threw three of his men to the ground to protect them, but was himself fatally wounded. Andrews was a school teacher and coach before he enlisted in the Army after Sept. 11, 2001.

Please do not add this back in for Audie Murphy in 2013 unless an announcement comes from Governor Perry's office that he has signed off on the medal. He was not awarded the medal as of this year, so far. — Maile (talk) 22:15, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Per message from Audiesdad, HCR3 awarding the Texas Legislative Medal of Honor was signed by Governor Rick Perry on August 19, 2013. Bill HCR3 Texas Legislature I have added it back to his list of honors from the state of Texas.— Maile (talk) 12:30, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Texas Legislative Medal of Honor

Maille: First off I am totally new to this wiki thing although I have tried to learn it a step at a time. In any case, I did attempt to post an update on this award, and then removed it as I was not able to gt the scripting correct. That said, the Texas Legislative Medal of Honor was signed by Governor Perry yesterday. The award will be presented in the fall to the family. Here is a link to the sourcing for the award. The actions tab will show you that it has now been signed. I would appreciate it if you can update the page. Wiki is a bit confusing for me. I have an image also for the ribbon and the full medal which are stunning and can provide them for use, just have to figure out how to upload them. Would appreciate any help and the update. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Audiesdad (talk • contribs) 02:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I have reinstated the award on Audie Murphy honors and awards. I have never uploaded images. If you would like assistance with that, I suggest you post a request at WikiProject Military history. — Maile (talk) 12:40, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Texas Leg Medal of Honor

Maille: Thanks for adding the link and info. I do want to request however that it be moved from the category "State of Texas Proclamations" to one of the military categories and be placed within the order of precedence with appropriate ribbon as this is a military award and may be worn on the uniform. It has a specific order and I can provide to you appropriate sourcing as well as an image itself for the ribbon (same size as others displayed). The Texas Legislative Medal of Honor is bestowed by the Governor as you know with consent of the legislature but again it is a military award and as such should be prominently displayed. I think you will agree and the fact that it was a "posthumous" award should have no bearing on this matter. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Audiesdad (talk • contribs) 04:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Done. — Maile (talk) 13:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Look so much better now with the award moved to the appropriate category. Just wanted to acknowledge and thank!--Audiesdad (talk) 00:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Texas Leg Medal of Honor

Maille:

The award is listed in the U.S. state awards section, which is fine. That said, however; the entire box should be moved up one section in front of the U.S. Military awards and Badges section, as although a state level award it may be worn on the U.S. Army uniform and has a distinct order of precedence. It does rate above any badges or non-U.S. military awards. Can provide sourcing. I actually was not going to bring this up, but I know you have worked tirelessly to have the page correct. With respect to that point the boxed sections, proper placement of the boxes should be U.S. Military (as you have it), followed by foreign awards, followed by U.S. state awards, followed by badges and then civilian. The exception to that would be the Presidential Medal of Freedom if I am ever able to pull that off. That is more in keeping with a typical order of precedence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Audiesdad (talk • contribs) 02:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm asking over at the WP Military History project for sourcing on this. This is sure to be one of those things down the line that someone might question. The Institute of Heraldry (aka the Pentagon) does not cover this, and the unsourced Awards and decorations of the United States military shows it like I have it. So, we need something to keep this from being moved back and forth all the time.— Maile (talk) 20:34, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Let me throw this in there as well, as it is the Army manual that governs precedence and wear of uniform and medals etc. It is AR 670-1 and the most current version, revised 24 June, 2013. Order is covered in Paragraph 29-5 beginning on page 266. As you can see wear and precedence of badges follows all ribbons. In addition state awards are covered. For some reason I cannot yet find the Army Outstanding Civilian Service Medal. I'll have to research that one.--Audiesdad (talk) 00:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Found the 670-1.pdf. Pg 269: "Personnel will wear such awards in the State order of precedence, after Federal and foreign awards. Soldiers on active Federal Service under the provisions of title 10, United States Code, are authorized to accept but not wear State or Territory awards." That refers to Army National Guard personnel. But that's as close as it comes to addressing this. The 600-8-22 I was referred to over at WP-MH, does not seem to address the issue at all. Thanks for telling me about 670-1— Maile (talk) 00:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

If you go to Paragraph 29-5 you will find the order of precedence by category of medal which is what I initially mentioned ref the order of precedence chart (box) on the page. State awards definitely come after foreign and non-u.s. service awards. This is on Page 226. You must then go to the Order of precedence list on at paragraph 29-6 (pg 267) where they are then listed within each category. In that section is the answer to the Outstanding Civilian Service Award. It is not listed! Please note (4) through (6). The reason it is not listed is that it is not a DoD award. All DoD awards are listed. It is a Secretary of the Army award and therefore was not provided an order of precedence. It still ranks or ranked as the second highest within the Army but is not allowed to be worn on the uniform. Therefore on your chart it should be placed last in the order displayed. Lastly if you go to paragraph 29-6 pg 269section(j) active Federal service would not apply to Murphy. That statute applies to those who are in Federal service and he was a member of the Guard and not subject to Title 10 regarding his service. Here is a link to the order of precedence and regulations governing the Texas Military Forces and their awards. Section II, page 17 - 20 para 12-6 will show their order of precedence. See also (j) on page 20. Lastly, 29-13 pg 279 shows all badges and order of precedence. Notice the badges in the regulations are placed last in the area of importance. That should show that badges are the very last item in order of precedence, which is why I revert to my original point that the chart/box should be redesigned to incorporate the various areas I mentioned. Not trying to confuse this but decorations and awards can be very confusing even to those who are former or retired military. Thanks!--Audiesdad (talk) 04:10, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Outstanding Civilian Service Medal

Maille:

Thanks for all you have done and the comments. With respect to the Outstanding civilian Service Medal and for clarity to a reader, I think it should be noted beside the award that at the time of the award (1961) it was the second highest award that could be rendered to a civilian. I can source that through an official DoD website or through a wiki page(s). Currently it is ranked as third due to newer awards over 50 years but at the time it was ranked as second and was quite an honor in that day before the dumbing down of the awards system over the years, and I think it is worth noting for the reader.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Audiesdad (talk • contribs) 02:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

You must be excited about the recent events, because you keep forgetting to sign your talk page posts. Anyway, regarding this medal, if you can source it through the DoD (can you also provide an URL when you do?), then go ahead and provide a brief explanation in the Notes section.— Maile (talk) 20:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC

Will try to be more attentive to the signature, sorry. Will update shortly with sourcing.--Audiesdad (talk) 00:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

For Audiesdad-your signature

Regarding signing your posts, that applies only to talk pages. I've noticed that you have also been signing your name to your page edits over on the honors and awards page. Signatures do not belong anywhere but the talk pages. I hope I've help clear up some confusion about this. But if you have other questions about formatting, please feel free to ask me. — Maile (talk) 11:46, 25 August 2013 (UTC) Thanks for clearing that up for me. It was confusing. Glad you let me know.--Audiesdad (talk) 05:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Revert of Headings

Maille:

Could you explain why you reverted the headings. I know I am the newbie but am trying to figure your logic. I have over 25 years military and/or contractor and consider myself somewhat of an expert on awards. I'll make my point briefly. When I refer to sub-heading, I am referring to those highlighted in blue.

First sub-heading reads "U.S. military decorations, unit awards, campaign medals and ribbons". In my opinion it should be edited to read. a) U.S. military decorations, unit awards, and campaign medals. There is no need to cite "ribbons" in the sub-heading as that term would be redundant as the ribbons are shown in lieu of medals and the only one that is not a full size medal is the Presidential Unit Citation and that is covered as a "unit award" which is covered by/in the sub-heading.

b) U.S. non-military awards and decorations The only award displayed is the Outstanding Civilian Service Award. Notice the title itself says "award" not medal or decoration, hence the word decoration should be removed, and the sub-heading should simply read "U.S. non-military awards"

C)U.S. foreign awards and decorations This is the one that disturbs me the most. There is no-such animal as a U.S. foreign award. That is why they are referred to as foreign awards. This heading should be changed to simply "foreign awards and decorations" Secondly, the verbiage should be reversed to read "decorations and awards" rather than "awards and decoration" as decorations are always listed first as they are higher in ranking. Refer to the AR I sent you for clarification or I can point you to the areas I mentioned above. Thanks!--Audiesdad (talk) 05:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• You were reverted mostly because putting your signature in there whacked out the formatting. Sometimes it's easier just to revert than to spend time correcting someone else's errors. The two edits before that, where I just corrected instead of reverting, is an example. You stuck your signature in the edit. I know by reading in the thread above that you now know not to do that. But you also used Wikipedia as a reference. Wikipedia is not a reliable source for itself.. That's like saying, "I am verifying this is true by something else I said on another page."
• Please spend more time learning how to edit and source. Have you noticed that I come along behind you and clean up most things you edit? Your sourcing shows as bare urls, which Wikipedia doesn't want. This gets really, really tedious. Standards are higher for Audie Murphy as we reach for Featured Article status. On your talk page in 2011, you were given links to guidelines.
• Regarding your claims that you have a history in the military service, I'm not saying you don't, but people can claim anything they want on the internet. At Wikipedia, it's all about verifiable, and property formatted, sourcing.
• Whether you like the section headings or not, this page has been checked by the WP Military History project when they were doing the A-class review. You're the only one who doesn't like the section headings, but WP MH are going to be the people who do the review for FAC.

• a) Above - I looked at some of the other articles that have been through A-class review at military history. I've changed it to align with those articles. I think it was the same thing you were saying. — Maile (talk) 16:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• b) Above - that section was like that to allow for future items that would fit in there. But since we don't have any others at the moment, I took care of what concerns you.
• c) Above -U.S. foreign awards and decorations - this was an error. The word "foreign" should never have been in there at all, because that is a subjective term. A foreign country is the one the reader is not in. This is a global encyclopedia. I've changed it to non U.S., which should resolve this.
• I appreciate your enthusiasm, what you've done to see that Audie Murphy gets recognized, and believe you are confident of the knowledge in your own background. But I don't know you personally to verify that. And the most prolific disruptive editor we have had was also confident of his own knowledge, made rapid-fire edits that had to be corrected (while, of course, claiming they knew they were right, and how dare we question his input). Had a problem with sourcing, and the individual was defensive about it. And when we finally went through the Audie Murphy article with a fine-tooth comb during A-class review, it required a complete rewrite to rid the article of all the harm that editor did. Nobody is the mop and bucket crew for someone else. So, please, please do us both a favor and spend some time learning how to format citations. I'm pretty sure if you had done a "Preview" before "Save page", you would have known when your edits knocked the formatting out of whack. And as I said on your talk page, if you create an account you will have access to the Toolbar that has citation templates already on it.— Maile (talk) 15:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

October 2013 clean up

General clean-up for consistency, clarity, NPOV and MOS Words to watch. Copyvio checked and removed where it existed. Extra spaces removed. Dashes, serial commas and other punctuation were fixed throughout per WP:STYLE. ISBNs have been standardized per WP:ISBN.

Footnotes, References and Bibliography in this article have been verified. Standardization of style comes from Citation Guide: Chicago/Turabian (16th ed.) provided by Simon Frasier University Library, and from the best of Featured Articles such as Douglas MacArthur, List of heavy cruisers of Germany, Falaise pocket, Ernst Lindemann and Pedro I of Brazil.

Sourcing per Reliable source examples. Wikipedia doesn't like inline citations from User generated sourcing, which includes some information on the Audie L. Murphy Memorial Website. Citations that point to that site are identified as to whether they is user-generated, scanned, or otherwise.

Army Regulation 600-8-22 (PDF). is the guideline used on military awards. The only changes in the sections with tables for military awards (etc.) was the sourcing clean up.

Sections have been standardized in naming, and in some cases eliminated with contents merged in other sections. All non-military recognitions that happened in Texas have been moved under one section.

• Removed – Honorary citizen of Ramatuelle, France, sourced with English translation by Stan Smith of the Audie Murphy Natinoal Fan Club. User generated.

• Emended – Audie Murphy Rodeo Arena, originally listed as near Euless, Texas, sourced with Reproduction of 1948 newspaper article recreated by Stan Smith of the Audie Murphy Natinoal Fan Club. Again, user generated. I have not been able to verify the information. What I did find was Audie Murphy rodeo arena in Stephenville, 95 miles southwest of Euless. It was demolished when Stephenville built a new high school on the grounds. The listing has been changed to reflect the Stephenville arena, with an explanatory footnote referring to what Stan Smith provided.

Note: Roam41 found a fuller explanation and resourced it on Oct 9, 2013 — Maile (talk) 21:35, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

• Removed – 2004 – The Texas Cowboy Hall of Fame The original source link is dead, and the official site does not list its inductees.

• Removed – March 23, 1990 - "Murphy Hall" at Fort Knox SAMC. Item was added August 19, 2013. However, the link provided is already dead. A search at the Fort Knox site does not verify this. Searching at the Army's official site does not list this.

• Emended – The Audie Murphy Middle School, in Killeen, with a date of August 15, 2004. The source listed did not actually say when it was established. The school's official website also does not have that information. It is now listed "Date unknown".

• Removed unsupported text – February 15, 1949 – Murphy's honorary Texas Ranger status originally said he was made an honorary Texas Ranger twice within one year, in two different locations in Texas. The source does not mention when or where he was made an honorary Texas Ranger, only that as one he rode in the Texas Ranger Day parade.

• Removed unsupported text – March 16, 1996 – Country Music Association of Texas Hall of Fame. Removed "during ceremonies which took place at the VFW Post #3892 in Harker Heights, Texas" Source does not say where this happened.

• Removed unsupported text – November, 2000 – Posthumous Scottish Rite Masonry, 33rd Degree. Removed "highest degree of Masonry", "and awarded the honorary title Inspector General of Masons" Source does not say this.

• Removed unsupported text – All the postage stamps. Copyvios and unsupported text eliminated.

Multiple inline citations that are different pages of a single website do not have individual links under References, but a singular listing under External links, so as not to weigh the article down with unnecessary over linking. The U.S. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) is a credible source that is the repository of Murphy's government-related records. However, the search results are not static URLs necessary for links. The Thomas Guide (Library of Congress) also does not use static URLs NARA website and the Thomas Guide website are listed under External links for anyone who wishes to search. — Maile (talk) 23:16, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Shadowbox

I just reverted a good faith edit by Michael Barera and I wanted to explain why in a little more detail. Thank you so much for your recent additions of photos for some of the Audie Murphy articles. They are wonderful contributions. However, the shadowbox at the museum is simply inaccurate. I cringe whenever I see photos of it on the internet. The shadowbox was donated by a veteran who devoted his retirement years to making these beautiful boxes and presenting them to the families of vets. He used his own money and it was a labor of love. I know he meant well, but unfortunately he felt the need to "pad" Murphy's box out with commemorative medals. The last row and a half are all commemoratives. These are privately minted medals that are in no way recognized by the Federal government or the Army. Anyone can purchase them. They are akin to something you could buy from Hallmark or the Franklin Mint. I find this very misleading and that is why I removed it. It just seems if there was one soldier who wouldn't need his shadowbox padded out with fake medals, it would be Audie Murphy. If anyone has any other thoughts on this, I would be happy to discuss. Roam41 (talk) 17:21, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your keen eye and quick action. Given the nitpicking edit wars that have happened over Murphy's medals, I think you did the correct thing. Elsewise, Michael Barera has made some great image contributions that he took at the Audie Murphy American Cotton Museum. If anyone is interested in seeing the entire set, they're at: Commons - Audie Murphy American Cotton Museum. — Maile (talk) 17:32, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your catch and quick fix, Roam41 and Maile66. I thought that some of the medals might have been reproductions, but I never would have guessed that the shadow bow also includes privately made, unofficial medals as well. Understanding this now, I completely agree with you that my photo of the shadow box is inappropriate for this list. However, I would like to update the image's description to reflect this conversation; how best do you think I should do that? Currently, the relevant text that I use in the description is "A shadow box with Audie Murphy's medals and decorations..."; how could (should?) I update it to more accurately reflect the nature of the shadow box? Thanks in advance for your consideration and any advice you can give me. All the best! Michael Barera (talk) 19:10, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Michael Barera and Roam41, I took a stab at adding an explainer in the image description. Please feel free to revert me if you don't like it or have something better. — Maile (talk) 21:49, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks so much, Maile66! I think it looks great! Due to the length, I've decided to move your addition to the supplementary "note" field that I use for lengthy (but valuable) additional descriptions on my photos, as I have done with File:Grand Canyon July 2007 13.jpg. I hope you don't mind. Thanks again for your help; this definitely resolves my query! Michael Barera (talk) 22:22, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Like — Maile (talk) 22:33, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Michael Barera and Maile66. Oops, this kind of shadow box is two words! For the record, none of the awards are Audie's original medals. Every medal and ribbon in the box was purchased by the gentleman who made it. That's why they all look fairly shiny and new. It is legal to buy military awards, as long as they are being used for display purposes only. The only decoration that cannot be bought or sold is the Medal of Honor and for that reason it is absent from the display. The Fourragere is also missing. The rest of the box is correct until the commemoratives start. These are the last 10 medals, as well as the last 10 ribbon bars. It's a beautiful box. If the others just hadn't been added in, it would be fine. I think maybe just say the last 10 medals and ribbons are commemoratives which are unofficial in nature and not recognized by the US government. Something along those lines. Roam41 (talk) 23:15, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Our messages kind of overlapped. I just checked the photo page. Looks good to me. Roam41 (talk) 23:34, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks so much, Maile66 and Roam41! I think we can consider this issue (and this discussion thread) to be resolved. If you need anything more from me, please either ping me or drop me a line at my talk page. Thanks again! Michael Barera (talk) 00:16, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

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Do not change footnotes coding

I have just reverted this edit that was a change in format. Please do not change the Footnote coding. "ALM" is the group name designated to the notes coding. Please do not change again. It is correct, and it does not mean the footnotes were using Audie Murphy as a source. Again, please leave the footnotes alone. This Passed FLC with that coding. — Maile (talk) 21:15, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Why exactly? Anything can be the coding for notes, so why is it something that is not necessarily obvious what it refers to and not a standard format on Wikipedia or recommended by the MOS/Help? What makes it "correct"? Telling a reader that it's a footnote is much more intuitive than using initials. An article's passing FLC does NOT make it perfect and immutable. Reywas92^Talk 21:38, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

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