Talk:Babylon 5: Thirdspace
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Fair use rationale for Image:Thirdspace.jpg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Space33.jpg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Space54.jpg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Space65.jpg
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Chronology
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UnresolvedI've changed the article to read that Thirdspace must take place during "Atonement", not "before or during". The extant text was most correct in that the Delenn, Franklin, Allan and Earth war details limit the available time span. However, it is not possible that the film takes place before the episode, since Allan is wearing the uniform received in the episode during the film, and is active as the security chief, not the reluctant temporary acting-chief expecting Garabaldi's imminent return. The film cannot fit into the chronology at all other than as having taken place before Franklin's trip to Mars and Delenn's trip to Minbar to deal with the Warrior vs. Religious Castes' civil war. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, it is possible for this episode to take place before "Atonement" - see the Analysis section for "Atonement" at The Lurker's Guide. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 22:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Even your source says (direct quotation) "That puts 'Thirdspace' between the first and second scenes of 'Atonement'". QED. This source also acknowledges that there are irreconcilable continuity errors, and this article should probably also say so. This isn't particularly surprising giving Straczinsky's willinginess to stamp just about everything B5 as canonical regardless of such problems, and the fact that In the Beginning is a massive retcon. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:12, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
- Nice use of selective quotations. The full quote, including the important follow-ups, reads: That puts "Thirdspace" between the first and second scenes of "Atonement" (a slight inconsistency since Callenn's ship can be seen to arrive in the opening shot, before Zack's fitting) unless Zack's visit to the Minbari tailors wasn't the first time he wore the uniform. If his visit was just an adjustment, possibly a result of being in fistfights in "Thirdspace," the story takes place between "The Illusion of Truth" and "Atonement." As you say, QED. You cannot state definitively that the episode has to take place during "Atonement" - it has NOT been firmly established, which is why I have been reverting to the more accurate "just before or during" phrasing. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 16:35, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
- "If his visit..." is just rampant supposition, and if you actually watch the episode it is clear that such a supposition is an extreme reach, as it contradicts the characters' own in-context statements. I have no idea why you are pushing this "just before or" position, but you need to let it go. There is no support for it that can be reconciled with facts, and some random fan blogger's opinions are a questionably reliable source anyway, especially when they conflict with the show itself, which is the ultimate canon on the topic. If you cannot demonstrate your position more clearly than you have, then I'm going to restore what I have sourced as accurate. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 00:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
- As a neutral third party here, the Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 is hardly some "random fan blogger's" site - it's one of the definitive reference sites for Babylon 5, even used by Straczynski himself. Even Straczynski's recent book The Chronologies of Babylon 5 doesn't place it exactly (based on material reprinted in the book from here). The fact that content at the posted link makes reference to the conflicting chronologies shows that the timeline *cannot* be firmly established, as there is conflicting evidence to its placement. I'm afraid that it's you who are in error here, as the placement of this film in the chronology *cannot* be specifically targeted - thus, the wording that TheRealFennShysa has reverted to (which does leave open the possibility of the chronological placement you desire to state as fact - it does not deny it) is the correct one. I'm afraid that your version will be incorrect, and will be reverted. MikeWazowski (talk) 14:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
- I think MikeWazowski hit the nail on the head here - your opinion that the film *must* take place during "Atonement" is not shared by others. People disagree - it happens. It just so happens that the version I've reverted to leaves open both possibilities, since reasonable people can, have, and do disagree about this point. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 18:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
- Don't agree, but I have better things to do. The problem with your take on this is that A) the interpretation that it takes place during "Atonement" leaves no issue but the minor continuity problem that there might not be enough time for all the plot points of both productions. Meanwhile, B) the thought-experiment that Lurker presents for Thirdspace taking place before that episode requires - as he explicitly acknowledges himself - ignoring various established facts, including statements made by the characters. You have latched onto what is very clearly a "what if" alternate reality idea as a serious possibility worth mentioning in an encyclopedia article. Doing so is original research (novel synthesis), undue weight, PoV pushing, and a fanwanking multi-level transgression of WP:NOT, as original thought, guidebooking, crystal balling, soapboxing, and indiscriminate collecting of (alleged) information . I'll let others deal with this, however. My patience for dealing with fannish over-control of articles on sci-fi/fantasy topics is sharply limited. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
- It seems to me that since both sources we have (the Lurkers Guide and Laaksonen's "The Chronology of the Babylon 5 Universe") agree on Thirdspace being either just before or during "Atonement", than that is what we should say too. According to the more detailed source, Zack's uniform suggests "during", but the arrival of certain ships suggests "just before". For us to pick between the statements would be OR, to include them both with the phrase "just before or during" is the most accurate summary of the source.—MJBurrage(T•C) 01:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
- The official Chronology book places Thirdspace after "Moments of Transition" (or during it?) with a note that says Delenn returned to the station during that time. JoeD80 (talk) 01:24, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
- It seems to me that since both sources we have (the Lurkers Guide and Laaksonen's "The Chronology of the Babylon 5 Universe") agree on Thirdspace being either just before or during "Atonement", than that is what we should say too. According to the more detailed source, Zack's uniform suggests "during", but the arrival of certain ships suggests "just before". For us to pick between the statements would be OR, to include them both with the phrase "just before or during" is the most accurate summary of the source.—MJBurrage(T•C) 01:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
- Don't agree, but I have better things to do. The problem with your take on this is that A) the interpretation that it takes place during "Atonement" leaves no issue but the minor continuity problem that there might not be enough time for all the plot points of both productions. Meanwhile, B) the thought-experiment that Lurker presents for Thirdspace taking place before that episode requires - as he explicitly acknowledges himself - ignoring various established facts, including statements made by the characters. You have latched onto what is very clearly a "what if" alternate reality idea as a serious possibility worth mentioning in an encyclopedia article. Doing so is original research (novel synthesis), undue weight, PoV pushing, and a fanwanking multi-level transgression of WP:NOT, as original thought, guidebooking, crystal balling, soapboxing, and indiscriminate collecting of (alleged) information . I'll let others deal with this, however. My patience for dealing with fannish over-control of articles on sci-fi/fantasy topics is sharply limited. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
- I think MikeWazowski hit the nail on the head here - your opinion that the film *must* take place during "Atonement" is not shared by others. People disagree - it happens. It just so happens that the version I've reverted to leaves open both possibilities, since reasonable people can, have, and do disagree about this point. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 18:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
- As a neutral third party here, the Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 is hardly some "random fan blogger's" site - it's one of the definitive reference sites for Babylon 5, even used by Straczynski himself. Even Straczynski's recent book The Chronologies of Babylon 5 doesn't place it exactly (based on material reprinted in the book from here). The fact that content at the posted link makes reference to the conflicting chronologies shows that the timeline *cannot* be firmly established, as there is conflicting evidence to its placement. I'm afraid that it's you who are in error here, as the placement of this film in the chronology *cannot* be specifically targeted - thus, the wording that TheRealFennShysa has reverted to (which does leave open the possibility of the chronological placement you desire to state as fact - it does not deny it) is the correct one. I'm afraid that your version will be incorrect, and will be reverted. MikeWazowski (talk) 14:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
- "If his visit..." is just rampant supposition, and if you actually watch the episode it is clear that such a supposition is an extreme reach, as it contradicts the characters' own in-context statements. I have no idea why you are pushing this "just before or" position, but you need to let it go. There is no support for it that can be reconciled with facts, and some random fan blogger's opinions are a questionably reliable source anyway, especially when they conflict with the show itself, which is the ultimate canon on the topic. If you cannot demonstrate your position more clearly than you have, then I'm going to restore what I have sourced as accurate. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 00:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
- Nice use of selective quotations. The full quote, including the important follow-ups, reads: That puts "Thirdspace" between the first and second scenes of "Atonement" (a slight inconsistency since Callenn's ship can be seen to arrive in the opening shot, before Zack's fitting) unless Zack's visit to the Minbari tailors wasn't the first time he wore the uniform. If his visit was just an adjustment, possibly a result of being in fistfights in "Thirdspace," the story takes place between "The Illusion of Truth" and "Atonement." As you say, QED. You cannot state definitively that the episode has to take place during "Atonement" - it has NOT been firmly established, which is why I have been reverting to the more accurate "just before or during" phrasing. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 16:35, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Even your source says (direct quotation) "That puts 'Thirdspace' between the first and second scenes of 'Atonement'". QED. This source also acknowledges that there are irreconcilable continuity errors, and this article should probably also say so. This isn't particularly surprising giving Straczinsky's willinginess to stamp just about everything B5 as canonical regardless of such problems, and the fact that In the Beginning is a massive retcon. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:12, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
- Why not suggest the simple task of watching "Atonement" first scenes until after Zack gets his uniform, then watch Thirdspace, and return to the episode afterwards? Or, maybe someone should remove the scene from the episode and edit it into the begining of Thirdspace - that would resolve the most noticeable issues. And I'm sure some other clever edits could resolve the entirety of the movie with another episode to draw material from. Either way, I was disappointed when I watched Thirdspace in the suggested order and found Zack in a B5 uniform with no explanation only to watch Atonement to see him being fitted for the uniform he'd been wearing for at least a week. Though I suppose it's possible he was given a generic size uniform and was having it tailored to fit. My brain is now broken. ~AeSix 2602:42:560E:E100:7516:E041:73C9:89A3 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 01:10, 13 January 2015 (UTC)