Talk:Baháʼí Administration (book)

Lack of notability

There are no sources cited except the book itself. The book needs to have significant coverage in reliable, independent, secondary sources to meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines. A brief search does not reveal such sources, though if I am mistaken I'm happy to change my mind. I'm going to put a template but not list it for now to give other editors time if they think it should be kept. Maybe we could have one article for "Writings of Shoghi Effendi" that brings together the best known among his writings. Gazelle55 (talk) 01:17, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

There is this at Wikipedia:Notability (books): "The book's author is so historically significant that any of the author's written works may be considered notable. This does not simply mean that the book's author is notable by Wikipedia's standards; rather, the book's author is of exceptional significance and the author's life and body of written work would be a common subject of academic study."

My intuition is that the 10 or so books that are compilations of Shoghi Effendi's work should all be notable enough considering that excerpts from them are studied around the world and quoted extensively by Baha'is. On the other hand, I don't think this article will ever be very long. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 02:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm, that does seem like the most plausible avenue for showing its notability. I don't think Shoghi Effendi's work is a "common subject of academic study," though. It might help to get input from an expert editor with a better sense of how that criterion usually gets used. This will come up for the works of the three Central Figures too.

Not specific to this article, but do you think it would be a good idea to have a "Writings of Baha'u'llah" article? There is a little bit in the "Baha'u'llah" article and then listings in "Baha'i literature" and "List of writings of Baha'u'llah," but it seems like a proper article is warranted. I started one but realized it would take some time and wanted to confirm if there were any objections. Having that article wouldn't require merging in any of the pages for the individual writings, though some of the less notable ones might eventually be merged into it. Gazelle55 (talk) 15:17, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

I think the point there is that Shoghi Effendi and his written works are "historically significant" regardless of whether a specific book is studied in academia. The notability guidelines are guidelines, not policy. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:25, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, totally agree they are guidelines and need to be tempered with common sense. Certainly Shoghi Effendi himself is Wiki-notable, but for all his books to be notable he would need to be "of exceptional significance and the author's life and body of written work would be a common subject of academic study" as it says in what you pasted above. Exceptional significance is pretty subjective, but it does seem to require that he and his body of written work be commonly studied academically. Scrolling through Google Scholar I eventually found one article dedicated to one of his works (and perhaps there are a couple more I haven't found), but it doesn't look like they are anywhere near "a common subject of academic study." If Edgar Allen Poe or Gabriel García Márquez or the Pope has some obscure book then yes we could have an article for it—that is the kind of thing the guideline is for but I'm just not convinced it applies here. Gazelle55 (talk) 00:19, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

RfC about the notability of this book

Is this book notable just because one religious leader (Shoghi Effendi) wrote it? I could not find any mention of this book in non-Baha'i sources.Serv181920 (talk) 12:08, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Survey

• Comment (Summoned by bot)  – I am researching this, and will vote when I come up with a decision. Mathglot (talk) 19:59, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

One of the things that might confer notability on his books, is evidence of university courses devoted to the book; this is point #4 of WP:NBOOK. So, I first started by searching for university courses devoted to the man (i.e., point #5, an easier bar to cross), which should be much more numerous than a course devoted entirely to the book. I did this by searching for his name in the .edu top-level domain to see what colleges and universities have about him. The search turned up 57 results (see page 6 of results; first-page hit estimate of 1700 is not accurate), and I don't see any courses listed. It's possible the courses are on unindexed pages, and I'll try spot-checking some of the universities listed (Gonzaga, MIT, U. Chicago, Stanford, Harvard, etc) to see if I can find a course about him listed in their catalog. My first-glance impression, is that Shoghi Effendi doesn't reach #4 or #5; but I've also only searched in English so far, and it could be that universities with courses in Farsi or other languages might have entire courses devoted to him. Mathglot (talk) 19:59, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Shoghi Effendi meets #5 of WP:NBOOK: "The book's author is so historically significant that any of the author's written works may be considered notable. This does not simply mean that the book's author is notable by Wikipedia's standards; rather, the book's author is of exceptional significance and the author's life and body of written work would be a common subject of academic study."

The Baha'i Faith is widely studied and Shoghi Effendi played a significant role in it. There are a few compilations of his letters, such as Baha'i Administration, World Order, Advent of Divine Justice, and Citadel of Faith. I think Shoghi Effendi easily passes #5, but (as I mentioned above) there is not much to say about the books, so perhaps a page about Writings of Shoghi Effendi and short summaries of each publication would be a better way to manage articles. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 08:20, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

No, in my opinion, he does not meet #5. He did not even receive significant coverage from Israeli media where he spent most of his life.Serv181920 (talk) 17:39, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

For the last 60+ years Baha'is have lectured on these books, gathered in small groups studying the books, and extensively quoted them. The writings of Shoghi Effendi are part of a limited and defined set of Baha'i canon that will be used for centuries. Shoghi Effendi is covered in any independent overview of the religion. E.g. this independent book made for academic use has 8 pages on Shoghi Effendi, a portrait and a picture of his grave.

Iranica's biography of him mentions, "His prolific correspondence (thousands of letters in English, Persian, and Arabic) form a considerable body of work that Bahais regard as authoritative, although not as scripture. Of his works, more than ten Persian and fifteen English volumes have been published. Some of his letters are of such length that they have been published as individual volumes: Advent of Divine Justice (New York, 1939) and The Promised Day is Come (Wilmette, 1941)... Most of his published writings are, however, compilations of the letters that he wrote to various national Bahai communities (see Bibliography)."

Iranica's bibliography says

• "Major works include:
  • God Passes By, Wilmette, Ill., 1999a;
  • The Advent of Divine Justice, Wilmette, 1990;
  • The Promised Day is Come, Wilmette, 1996.
• "His major letters to North America have been published in batches as:
  • for 1922-32: Bahāʾī Administration, Wilmette, 1968b;
  • for 1929-36: The World Order of Bahāʾu’llāh, Wilmette, 1991 (Dispensation of Bahāʾu’llāh is also contained in this work);
  • for 1932-46: This Decisive Hour: Messages from Shoghi Effendi to the North American Bahāʾīs 1932-1946, Wilmette, 2002;
  • for 1947-57: Citadel of Faith: Messages to America 1947-1957, Wilmette, 1995b;
  • also Messages to Canada, Thornhill, Ont., 1999b;
  • High Endeavors: Messages to Alaska, [Anchorage,] 1976.
• "Shoghi Effendi’s letters to other national Bahai communities include:
  • Messages of Shoghi Effendi to the Indian Subcontinent 1923-1957, ed. Iran Muhajir, New Delhi, 1995c;
  • The Light of Divine Guidance: The Messages from the Guardian of the Bahāʾī Faith to the Bahāʾīs of Germany and Austria, 2 vols., Hofheim-Langenhain, 1982;
  • The Unfolding Destiny of the British Bahāʾī Community: The Messages of the Guardian of the Bahāʾī Faith to the Bahāʾīs of the British Isles, London, 1981;
  • Messages to the Antipodes, ed. Graham Hassall, Mona Vale NSW, 1997;
  • Japan Will Turn Ablaze! Tokyo?, 1974, pp. 45-90.
• There is also: Messages to the Bahāʾī World, 1950-1957, Wilmette, 1971.

As for Wikipedia structure of articles, I despise sprawling pages and I don't think all of these books deserve a page, but it is ridiculous to say that some of these books wouldn't be covered by WP:NBOOKS #5. I suggest taking Iranica's "major works" list for stand-alone articles (in other words, keep God Passes By, Advent of Divine Justice, and Promised Day is Come). The rest (Baháʼí Administration (book) and World Order of Baháʼu'lláh) could be merged into an expanded bibliography at Shoghi Effendi with a few sentences about each. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 20:08, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Another kind of survey of mentions would be to look at newspapers - like [1] [2] vs say [3] [4] (these might also bring around actual sources worth including in articles) Smkolins (talk) 11:02, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
• I support Cuñado's proposal to look at major works vs merging minor works and a useful starting point is the iranica's delineation and an overall fit to #5 as noted above. Smkolins (talk) 11:02, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
• I support Cuñado's proposal for merging minor works of Shoghi Effendi into an expanded bibliography at Shoghi Effendi.Serv181920 (talk) 10:40, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support – Still not convinced Shoghi Effendi is sufficiently notable to be covered under WP:NBOOKS #5, but I'm okay with keeping just the three most important ones as a compromise. Gazelle55 (talk) 18:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
• I support Cuñado proposal to Baháʼí Administration (book) and World Order of Baháʼu'lláh be merged into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoghi_Effendi article.Asad29591 (talk) 22:56, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

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