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Talk:Baháʼí Faith in Sweden

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Ragna Linne

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Latest comment: 8 years ago12 comments2 people in discussion

@Arjayay: - There is a brief bio of her at Ernst Wilhelm Olson; Martin J. Engberg; Anders Schön (1908). History of the Swedes of Illinois ... Engberg Holmberg publishing Company. pp. 135–136.

Her publicity as a Baha'i was in several sources, both Baha'i and non-Baha'i across 1908 to 1916. The rest of the sources are just reviewing her performances. I selected basically one per year out of many many more. This isn't OR - she was a visible active operatic singer of the time. Do you own research. It isn't hard to find articles about her but there has been no broad biography of her. And even so only the last part has a lot of links.--Smkolins (talk) 14:11, 8 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry, I do see this as OR - or more specifically as synthesis - you are trying to show that "she was an active singer each year, so presenting links for each year" to quote your edit summary.
If this is important (is it?) someone would have already stated this, so you could cite it, but trying to show this by adding a string of links, is pure synthesis. - Arjayay (talk) 14:47, 8 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
I'll live with the question of it's importance but your suggestion of synthesis doesn't seem real to me. I've suggested searching - here's a list I have which I present in full rather than a limited selection as earlier presented. It's possible somewhere in here there's a line or two about being performing a lot - here we have performances, benefits, receptions etc and I did NOT clip everything I found:
--Smkolins (talk) 18:36, 8 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

small section of focus

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That sums up my WP:SYN analysis extremely well
All I am suggesting is that you add is a single WP:RS supporting your assertion, not a vast list of references, from which you have synthesized the assertion.
As we are clearly not going to agree, may I suggest you try one of the methods explained in Wikipedia:Dispute resolution?
Until, than, as per the WP:BRD cycle, I will revert the article to the "original" version before your "bold" addition - Arjayay (talk) 19:49, 8 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

@Arjayay: - You are missing the very first citation. It makes the case that she was Swedish/Norwegian and that she was a well known operative singer. The rest just underscores that she was active long before and long after. --Smkolins (talk) 21:01, 8 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
@Arjayay: Not even going to engage in discussion? --Smkolins (talk) 11:13, 10 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
Hi Smkolins - Sorry I missed your first reply
(Your first ping didn't work, as you added it after you had signed and saved your post - to quote WP:Notifications "the post containing a link to a user page must be signed; if the edit does not add a new signature, no notification will be sent)
I didn't know that's how it worked. Thanks for clarifying.--S\mkolins (talk) 14:10, 10 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

I can see that your "Clear Lake music festival" link states "Madam Ragna Linne, the brilliant soprano", but I see no mention of Swedish/Norwegian.
However, as you said in your article edit which I reverted, she "encountered the Bahá'í Faith after she moved to Chicago" so I am unclear what relevance this is to "Bahá'í Faith in Sweden" at all.
The article is not about "Swedes who emigrated and found the Bahá'í Faith abroad", and (I'll admit I have not read all your references) I see no reference to her returning to Sweden.
If you think Ragna Linne deserves an article, then please write it - at the moment you seem to be trying to Coatrack her into the Bahá'í Faith in Sweden article - Arjayay (talk) 14:01, 10 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
That you didn't read the references, and made sweeping generalizations which shift each time you comment seems to me to be the detail that needs addressing here. You clearly spend a lot of probably pretty thankless time fixing spelling errors and other technical details. I don't doubt that you do run across many failures in many regards. But I ask you to take the time here since obviously I'm an engaged and ongoing editor. I am giving you the benefit of good faith, please return it. You still haven't mentioned the very first citation which is entitled History of the Swedes of Illinois which was also the very first comment in this comment thread. --Smkolins (talk) 14:08, 10 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
Hi Smkolins - As stated above, I took the "first reference" to mean "Clear Lake music festival". Having looked at the Google books reference all I can see is "Ragna Linne was born in Christiana, Norway, of Swedish-Norwegian parentage. On her father's side she is de-" - but no mention "that she was a well known operative singer" - however Google books does not always show the same extract to every viewer.
I have a suspicion the extracts get smaller the more frequently the book is searched. I cited Google Books for information which was clearly in the visible extract at the time, but had disappeared several weeks later.
As for my "sweeping generalizations which shift each time you comment" I still believe that by citing so many references, you were trying to synthesize information you could not find cited.
However, until reading (some of) your references, I did not realize that she had not returned to Sweden, so my objection has not shifted - it has just been compounded.
Returning your good faith, could you please explain why you think Ragna Linné is relevant to this article? - Arjayay (talk) 15:18, 10 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

Good faith is a broader idea. But lets get into details one at a time, eh? First lets try that google books issue again. I've gone to the page repeatedly and never had any limit, though I know what you mean that sometimes Google trims the views if there are more hits. Just not for me in this case even now again after your comment - here's the text:

Ragna Linné was born in Christiania, Norway, of Swedish-Norwegian parentage. On her father's side she is a descendant of Carl von Linné, the renowned Swedish botanist. Even at a tender age she manifested an exquisite vocal talent. At the early age of twelve years she served as vocalist in the Catholic Cathedral of her native city. Later on she won fame by her singing in all the principal cities of Europe.
Coming to the United States in 1885, she located in New York. Pursuing her career as a singer, she appeared in concert in various parts of the country, and as church (page) soloist. Her greatest triumphs, however, she won as a member of the Metropolitan English Grand Opera Company and the Castle Square Opera Company. After her removal to Chicago, Mme. Linné has been very active in the musical circles of the city, as teacher, concert singer and solist on numerous public occasions. She has been engaged as soprano soloist at the Second Presbyterian Church, the Sinai Temple, and the South Congregational Church, all in Chicago. Mme. Linné is also much sought after as a singer at Swedish festivals.
For a number of years back she has been a member of the faculty of the American Conservatory of Music. On her tours of the states as a member of various concert and opera companies, Mme. Linné has sung in the principal cities of every state in the Union.

Perhaps you should be more conservative in sweeping things up if you can't see the text and actually make an informed decision. The list of links to most of the newspaper articles just details some of her performances. I've since worked up a more sophisticated review of her performances and yes it might yet appear as a separate article. But with this it is clear that she is Swedish and participates in a cultural footprint of Swedes in the midwest (from the list you will also see trips to St Paul and other locations for specifically Swedish/Scandinavian events like a commemoration for Ole Bull.) These sources say nothing about being a Baha'i. That comes in in two newspaper stories, which are considered reliable sources of a sort when not opinion editorials which I'll admit is a bit weak - but then it is clear that she shows up at Baha'i conventions multiple times and in particular when the then head of the religion was present. These are no small events but large scale things pulling people from across the country. I'm not claiming a relationship between her personal faith circa 1908 to 1916 at least and things in Sweden/Norway, but it is relevant that she was active as a Swede/Norwegian in other lands and as a Baha'i. Mention has occurred in various write-ups of other countries and "the first" Baha'i of such a such a nation was a Baha'i living somewhere else. Obviously any further statement requires connection which doesn't yet exist. I have found that two other Swedes who did return to Sweden/Norway(it is alittle confusing in the period because of political changes unifying/seperating them along the way) eventually were in close proximity to her but nothing worth citing yet. --Smkolins (talk) 15:43, 10 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thoughts? @Arjayay:
Hi Smkolins - your ping didn't work because, as explained above "the post containing a link to a user page must be signed" - and you didn't sign it.
Thank you for providing the full Google books extract, although it doesn't seem to help our current discussion. Let us recap:- My original objection was "excessive links as WP:LINKFARM" You stated "substantiating a point that she was an active singer each year, so presenting links for each year". I replied "if you can't find a source that states that, don't support it by WP:OR"
It would have been better if I had cited WP:SYN, a subsection of WP:OR, but my objection stands - if it needs such a vast number of references to justify such a minor point, that is synthesis.
However, it then transpired that she did not convert to the Baha'i Faith until after emigrating to the US, and did not return to Sweden thereafter. I, therefore, asked you why she should appear in this article about the Bahá'í Faith in Sweden at all.
Although I suspect you may think you have justified this, I find "it is relevant that she was active as a Swede/Norwegian in other lands and as a Baha'i" too weak an argument - she was no longer a Swede/Norwegian, but a former Swede/Norwegian, and the Baha'i faith was a product of her having emigrated to the US, not having come from Sweden/Norway.
What do the references allow us to say? "Although known in the US as a Swedish soprano, and member of the Bahá'í faith, Ragna Linne did not convert from Catholicism to Bahá'í until after emigrating, and there is no record of her ever returning to Sweden" - This seems so weak and negative, that it appears to be being forced into this article.
I have had my say - please don't include that long list of references, but otherwise, please do what you feel you must - Arjayay (talk) 10:10, 14 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
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