Talk:Banate of Macsó

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. Cúchullain ^t/c 19:12, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

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Banate of Mačva → Banate of Macsó

Reason: The Banate of Mačva/Macsó was a territory of the Kingdom of Hungary, so the using of the area's current name is unfounded. The English Wikipedia also uses the Hungarian form in the case of historical counties of the Hungarian Kingdom (for example Pozsony County, instead of Bratislava). Furthermore, the Ottoman Empire established eyalets in the place of conquered Hungarian areas (former counties). The Wikipedia uses the Turkish name of these administrative divisions (for example Budin Eyalet, not Buda, Eğri Eyalet, not Eger etc.) Banate of Mačva/Macsó is a former historical political entity, not exist anymore. I think, using of "Banate of Mačva" is very anachronistic. --Norden1990 (talk) 19:14, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose Support - Both versions have 3 GBS hits ("Banate of Mačva" and "Banate of Macsó") but the latter are 2/3 Hungarian translated works.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:02, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support -- We have a conflict of languages here. The question is whehter we should adopt a Serbain or Hungarian spelling. I would suggest that since Hungary was the sovereign power duirng the period of its existence, we should use the Hungarian form, retaining the present name as a redirect. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:12, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect. The article says that in period between 13th and 15th century there were significant periods when it was not part of Hungary but Serbia, like in the final period of its existence 1403—1459.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:15, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

About the final period, Stefan Lazarević received the territory from Sigismund of Luxemburg as a !tributary! domain in 1403 and it got back to Hungary with Lazarević's death. Fakirbakir (talk) 21:19, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

The point was not if this entity was governed by Serb feudal lords in 15th century betwen 1403 and 1459 or it was actually between 1403 and 1427. The point was that it is incorrect that "Hungary was the sovereign power duirng the period of its existence" which was main argument of Peterkingiron. Based on the text of the article I thought that the period of its existence was 1247–1459. Since this province ceased to exist in periods when it was ruled by Serbian lords, like in 1282–1325 or 1403-1427, then it should be clarified in the lede of the article. I believe it will be done soon and change my opinion to support. Thanks Fakirbakir for concise explanation of your position. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:38, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support. It had mixed population it is pretty straightforward however we should use the Hungarian form of its name because it was a Hungarian administrative division as a banate. It was called "Banate of Macsó" ONLY when it belonged to Kingdom of Hungary. When the territory of the "Hungarian banate" was part of a Serbian kingdom it was not a banate at all. It was simply part of Kingdom of Syrmia (Srem). Fakirbakir (talk) 20:47, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support. As per above arguments. Borsoka (talk) 04:08, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support. We should follow WP:TITLE, however, there are not enough English sources available to decide the common English name of the entity. In this case, we should take other considerations into account and the arguments presented by users Norden1990 and Fakirbakir are convincing to me. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 14:38, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Proposal to move

Banate of Macsó → Machoviensis Banate

Reason: Previous move proposal from 22 August 2012 was made with wrong assumptions. English sources are using Hungarian names for counties of the Kingdom of Hungary from 1867-1918 period when Hungarian language was official in that kingdom. In Middle Ages official language in the Kingdom of Hungary was Latin and official name of this province was “Banatus Machoviensis”, which sources show: [1]. Name Macsó is in use from 19th century and is not historical name. It is anachronistic one. We should not use name from 19th century in 13th century. 2.133.92.154 (talk) 19:08, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. Latin was the language of the administration as everywhere else in Europe. There was no "official language". Spoken language was however surely (mainly) Hungarian (See: Demographics of Hungary), or at least the leading class, the nobles were Hungarians. Fakirbakir (talk) 11:56, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. per Fakirbakir. Latin was the used language in every Christian country in the Middle Ages. Anyway your proposal is an English-Latin hybrid word formation, there is no source for that. Secondly a google search is not a source. --Norden1990 (talk) 23:58, 6 June 2013 (UTC)