Talk:Bánh bò

Comment

Yet another article that is inaccurate. Bò also means crawl, the first reference even states this. Why wasn't it translated crawl cake? And why must people continually relate Vietnamese People to Chinese People? Yes we share a border, but we are NOT Chinese!!! Bánh bò nứơng is Chinese, not Vietnamese. Korean people also have rice cake, but I don't see them mentioned as an originator? We also call this bánh bò cos the terms mean rice cake.

I'd be tempted to say the origin of the word is actually country slang "crawl cake" cos made properly, that is without yeast, it takes forever.

This should be an article against the name "rice cake" It's a common dish among many Asian, if not rice eating, countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.211.170.248 (talk) 11:56, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Most Vietnamese people translate this as "cow cake." What leads you to believe the name translates as "crawl cake," and what is the origin of this name? Badagnani (talk) 06:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I've removed both of the supposed etymology since neither are backed up by a reliable source. Both sound like folk etymology, and until a source is found, the article shouldn't mention them. DHN (talk) 19:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of etymology or possible etymology is not helpful to our users. If there are two possible (competing) etymologies they should be presented, as we do for all foreign-language food articles. Badagnani (talk) 20:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Please do add them when you find a reliable source mentioning them. Otherwise, unfounded speculations are hardly helpful. DHN (talk) 20:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I did some research and the word is most commonly translated as cow, but sometimes it's also noted that it is also translated as crawl [1] (usually also noting the cow translation). I'm also finding evidence of the folk loric cow story. I think we can be bold and include both as Badagnani suggests. If someone wants to track down some good sources that would be all the better. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:03, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Vietnamese language?

Hm I wonder if Badagnani is fluent in Vietnamese. Just want to tell you that I grew up in Vietnam and have a very well understanding of its culture and language, but I've never heard any Vietnamese in Vietnam associate this cake with the cow, nor have I heard of the hilarious "cow legend" that was put up on this wiki page awhile ago. I even thought some funny person was making a joke when they put up that legend because as a student majoring in Literature, I have studied (or self-studied) a large majority of Vietnamese folk tales, and how come I have never heard or come across a legend like that, especially a legend about a food that is extremely common in Vietnam. Badagnani says "Most Vietnamese people translate this as "cow cake." What leads you to believe the name translates as "crawl cake," and what is the origin of this name?" To answer you, most Vietnamese don't stop and think about the meaning of this cake, they just call it "bánh bò," that's all. There are lots of homophones in Vietnamese language and average Vietnamese don't care about this. We have a cake called "bánh khoái", the name of this cake is a homophone to the word "like, pleased, pleasure." Do average Vietnamese stop and think why this cake is named "like cake", "pleased cake" or "pleasure cake"? No. And if foreigners ask them to translate the name of that cake to English, they would probably just say "like cake" (but "khoái" is actually from "khói" which means "smoke", so it's "smoke cake", not "like cake"). Similar here. When you ask an average Vietnamese American to translate "bánh bò" to English, they translate it as "cow cake" because cow is the first thing that come up to their mind when they think of the word bò, but the reality is the cake has nothing to do with cow. Ask the bánh bò sellers in Vietnam, they would tell you that "bò" here means crawl or spread, rather than cow. Blogs and forums in Vietnamese language that discuss about the name of this cake also conclude that it's called bánh bò because bakers have to wait for the cake to "bò" to the rim of the pan. You want a source, but too bad there's no English-language source analyzing the name of this cake, nor is there any official article from Vietnamese scholars written about this cake, because it is a too common food eaten by peasants and kids. Whatever the origin of the name is, it sure doesn't mean cow. A Vietnamese above is frustrated about the translated name of this cake and I understand why. This is how we feel when our culture and language is misinterpreted and wrong taught by foreigners. I agree with the notion that the name of the cake in English should be just "rice cake" as this is the name used in oversea Vietnamese bakeries. I see several other articles on wiki mention bánh bò and translate it as cow cake. We should remove those. Sunnyrain90 (talk) 06:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Move reverted

Original title restored, per WP:IRS "best such sources" and MOS "consistent with related articles" Bánh, Bánh bao, Bánh bèo, Bánh cam, Bánh cáy, Bánh chuối, Bánh cuốn, Bánh da lợn, Bánh Đậu Xanh, Bánh khoai mì, Bánh lá, Bánh mì, Bánh pía, Bánh rán, Bánh tẻ, Bánh tét, Bánh tráng, Bánh ướt, Bánh xèo. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:54, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved: 6:3 majority for "move" after 42 days. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:31, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

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Banh bo → Bánh bò – Title (since article creation 2007) cannot be restored due to edited redirect. Restore to WP:MOS "consistent with related articles" in Category:Vietnamese cuisine: Bánh cake, Bánh bao pork bun, Bánh bèo water fern cake, Bánh bò sweet sponge, Bánh cáy sticky cake, Bánh chuối banana bread, Bánh cuốn rolls, Bánh da lợn tapioca cake, Bánh Đậu Xanh mung bean cake, Bánh khoai mì cassava bread, Bánh lá stuffed leaf, Bánh mì French bread, Bánh pía durian mooncake, Bánh rán glutinous rice ball, Bánh tẻ rice wraps, Bánh tét split cake, Bánh ướt wet cakes, Bánh xèo fried cake. Comment: No reason that en.wp should have a lower MOS for this category than a take-out/take-away menu. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:11, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

- Note Article moved without discussion In ictu oculi (talk) 04:01, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. On GBooks, I found 7 post-1980 English-language examples for "banh bo," 1 for "bánh bò". So googling doesn't resolve this one. The Vietnam-related articles are predominantly at ASCII titles now. See Category:Vietnamese_people, Category:Cities_in_Vietnam, or feature articles like Thich Quang Duc, Nguyen Chanh Thi, and arrest and assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem. There are certainly other food titles such as pho that are currently at ASCII titles as well. So if we take consistency seriously, this title should stay where it is. Britannica and National Geographic have the most diacritic-friendly policies among major English-language publications, but neither uses Vietnamese diacritics. Lonely Planet and the other travel guides give native script names for every language you can think of, but not for Vietnamese. Vietnam's English-language press is the only place where I found any mention of this type of food in English, and that is without diacritics. See VietnamNet Bridge or Viet Nam News. "Follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language," per WP:DIACRITICS. A title that includes Vietnamese diacritics misleads the reader into thinking that these marks are in used in mainstream English-language publications, which is not the case. Kauffner (talk) 16:33, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi. I suggest if you want to argue a RM case, we revert your move to status quo of article and then you argue a case. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:41, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Every time I turn around, I discover that IIO has come up with a thoughtful suggestion, another thing for me to do. However, I must confess that I have fallen behind. In fact, I really haven't been keeping up my end at all. But hey, I tell you what. I will put this one right on top of my "to do" list. Kauffner (talk) 17:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Comment. The nutshell graph at WP:TITLE says, "article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources." So making article titles consistent with other titles in the same category is a lower priority than making them consistent with the RS. Since this issue gotten quite personal, I will explain what prompted me to get interested in it in the first place. Here is Jimbo on his talk page. "Đặng Hữu Phúc is a brilliant example: this is an absolutely ridiculous thing to have in an English encyclopedia as a title. What appalls me about this most is the weirdness of assuming that if something sort of looks like an English letter, we should have it, while if it doesn't sort of look like an English letter, we shouldn't."[2] Extreme diacritics make many readers wonder if the article is in fact in English, not only Jimbo. Vietnamese has the least accepted and most extreme diacritics of any Latin-alphabet script. Kauffner (talk) 01:27, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. In English-language literature, including Vietnamese newspapers as Kauffner as shown, diacritics are omitted. (á and ò are not letters in the English alphabet.) The trend has been to remove the diacritics from Vietnam-related articles, to reflect the common name in English-language sources. It looks like those articles that IIO lists, not this one, should be moved. Shrigley (talk) 01:43, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Shrigley, the cookery/culture books in the article footnotes are English sources. As for á and ò they aren't letters in the English alphabet since like other terms in Category:Vietnamese words and phrases they aren't English words. As for the "trend" here on en.wp in the last 8 months that is largely the work of one editor, but lets not get into that. In this specific Category:Vietnamese cuisine please check my comment in proposal above and please compare your local Vietnamese restaurant menu, and also the cookery/culture sources in the article. If your local Vietnamese take-out doesn't use these accents then they may indeed be too much. Do they? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:21, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Bánh bò as sold in an English-speaking country

File:Into The Vietnamese Kitchen p339.jpg

This snippet of Into the Vietnamese Kitchen by Andrea Nguyen clearly shows diacritic use on this topic in a relevant, quality, English source. —  AjaxSmack  16:55, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

File:Into The Vietnamese Kitchen p14.jpg

This snippet of Into the Vietnamese Kitchen by Andrea Nguyen clearly shows diacritic use on food topics while not for other Vietnam-related topics such as placenames (Phu Quoc). —  AjaxSmack  16:55, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Per WP:UE, the title should either be at the English name (cow cake/rice cake) or a the Vietnamese name whichever is used more and/or is more precise. Removing diacritics does not make it English and Wikipedia does not face the technical or style manual limitations that require removal of diacritics. —  AjaxSmack  02:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support - redundant since I nominated, but spot on. This is exactly what I wanted to say, so I also want my name next to Ajax Smack's picture (left). Kauffner, you led Shrigley to believe per "including Vietnamese newspapers as Kauffner as shown", that Vietnamese English newspapers never carry diacritics, but Vietweek "Bánh bò .. cake" is a Vietnamese English print newspaper - wheras you have cited Vietnam News Agency (and what do we know about News Agency MOS?) As for VietnamNet Bridge, it seems they never include any accents: Francois Hollande wins SP primaries for 2012 Presidential contest, so what makes vietnamnet more WP:IRS "definition of reliable" for spelling Bánh bò than Vietweek? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:01, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanh Nien is your IRS gold standard?? You realize that they do not use diacritics for other subjects, such as, ah-hum.....folk music. The paper is reasonably well-known in Vietnam, but it is far being the country's largest. As for food, they run an occasional article now and then. There are two examples of "banh bo" on their site. It is not obvious to me that this paper should be treated as the worldwide oracle on Vietnamese cuisine. VNA is the official press agency and is far more influential. WP:VIETNAM recommends VietnamNet Bridge for news concerning cultural issues. I note that you rejected media sources and cited Britannica in your vote on Ivory Coast. But it seems that their style not good enough here. Kauffner (talk) 05:56, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Kauffner,

I think most people would recognise, without sarcasm or whatever the rest of the above is, that a newspaper which can distinguish bánh bò cake vs. bánh bó cake is more WP:IRS "reliable for the statement being made" than one that doesn't.

Obviously the best source would be Vietnamese itself, such as the parent newspaper vi:Thanh Niên (báo).

In ictu oculi (talk) 14:20, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

So you've stopped pretending to support "use English"? Perhaps that brings us closer to a solution. How about a "polyglot wikipedia" where every concept is given in its original language? Kauffner (talk) 14:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Please see WP:UE, but since Vietweek has two articles distinguishing bánh bò cake vs. bánh bó cake that won't be necessary. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:22, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support: thanks to Ajax Smack for the picture. Crowdsourcing means that Wikipedia can marshall Vietnamese-language expertise in sufficient numbers to input and proofread Vietnamese diacritics as necessary, which is infeasible for commercial publications like Britannica or National Geographic. Diacritics are of extra importance for a tonal language for those who care about accurate pronunciation, and those who don't can easily read through to the underlying letters. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 04:47, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

• That logic is amusing, since I have corrected quite a few misspellings myself. I have no idea what kind of system they might be using. But for whatever reason, there are still editors who try to write Vietnamese using the Latin-1 (8-bit) character set, which doesn't quite work. What about VietnamNet or the other English-language news sites based in Vietnam? Vietnamese writers don't know how spell in Vietnamese? Looking down on the sources is a patronizing attitude. Kauffner (talk) 06:01, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support Spelling the name appropriately is paramount, and the pictures pretty much show that they are used. -DJSasso (talk) 17:51, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per Kauffner. I believe we should follow what the clear majority of English-language sources do. Jenks24 (talk) 08:03, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support per nom, other similar articles do use diacritics. ༆ (talk) 18:25, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support per DJSasso. →Yaniv256 ^wind _roads 02:16, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Comment

• Comment. The two best-known Vietnamese foods, pho and bun cha, are currently at ASCII titles. With the cookbooks, Into the Vietnamese Kitchen, Amazon's top-selling Vietnamese cookbook, has a good style. Each food is given a title with an English-language name followed by a Vietnamese name in italics, for example "Chicken Pho — phở gà". The only example of bánh bò given with a diacritic in English-language writing that has been presented so far is the Yellowdawn book, which is self-published. Kauffner (talk) 13:27, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Those two moves should probably be reverted to status quo as well. moved Phở to Pho, + edit redirect moved Bún chả to Bun cha: + edit redirect 30 June 2012. Were you aware that editing a redirect prevents a move being reverted? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:25, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Did you open this RM to discuss a page move, or to recycle accusations? Kauffner (talk) 03:55, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi. I opened this RM as per nomination, to revert a page move contrary to all the other bánh articles under category:Vietnamese cuisine.

There's no "accusation" since the edits to redirects are plainly are visible. And no "recycling" since the question hasn't been answered. I'm simply asking whether you were aware that editing a redirect prevents a move being reverted? It is a question. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:31, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

You've asked me dozens of questions in the last few weeks, possibly due to a desire to have me perform busy work and spend my time answering them all. I find it hard to believe that this one is asked in good faith since we have gone through all this before. Kauffner (talk) 04:53, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

It's a simple question. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:12, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's another simple question: Did you actually believe that spelling in the text was supposed to be the opposite of the title? You play dumb one moment, then present yourself as an authority the next. Kauffner (talk) 11:35, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

There's no need for that.

My answer: Bánh bò is 18x in text, 5x in footnotes and 1x in title (when your move has been reverted), but no, even if your move wasn't reverted there's no reason not to have the correct spelling in the article text.

Now, my question: Were you aware that editing a redirect prevents a move being reverted? Simple question. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:46, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmmmm....as I understand it, Wiki gives out an award each month to the editor who asks the same question the most number of times. So if you ask another five or ten times, you could be in the running. Nobody likes a quitter, you know. Kauffner (talk) 16:46, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. Just take it easy. I'm Vietnammese, I love my tongue language and I don't like the name "banh bo", "pho" or "ao dai". But just think, when most of readers here using English to understand a word, using English language name make other people care about this find it easy to read and to remember, to turn it into other languages - he same as Chinese words when it come in to English WP, I see it quite acceptable. Violetbonmua (talk) 00:56, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually Violet, I've never seen a Vietnamese menu in UK or Australia which didn't have full Vietnamese spelling. Most English-speakers don't understand the difference any more than the accents on a Spanish menu, but honestly the accents don't make it more difficult for English speakers, they say "this food is Vietnamese not Malay or Cantonese". In ictu oculi (talk) 18:01, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

• Backlog If appropriate as proposer here, I note that this RM has now hit the backlog, which is larger than normal (perhaps due to the RM listing bot being broken?). Just a note that there are three other Category:Vietnamese cuisine undiscussed-move-restores in the RM queue behind this one. Talk:Bánh bò (13 July), Talk:Com tam (15 July), Talk:Bun cha, Talk:Bun bo Hue (16 July), it probably makes sense to consider all 4 together as generic issues are the same. In ictu oculi (talk)n 03:04, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• That's an interesting way to group the RMs. What happened to Talk:Pho#Requested_move? This subject is most obscure, but bun cha has significant mention in the major English-language media. I would suggest the any close be made in light the Vietnamese diacritics RfC. Kauffner (talk) 05:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Kauffner, "chicken pho" indicates Pho has passed into English. Also it wasn't one of your undiscussed moves and redirect edits. The stable/status quo version of the article is different. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:48, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Etymology

Based on the sources I just added, it looks like bò does mean either "cow" or "crawling" in this context. I also removed the bit about the name bánh bò having to do with the texture of beef liver, since no sources were given and I couldn't find any on my own. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 09:12, 24 March 2014 (UTC)