Talk:Bardsey Island

Untitled

See here for the etymology of the word Bardsey: [1]. --85.220.11.2 (talk) 17:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Images

Of five images (plus map) on the page, only one is specifically Bardsey - which seems a shame. Can anyone redress the balance? cheers Geopersona (talk) 06:40, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I've added a picture of the Abbey Ruins. There doesn't seem to be any more on Wikicommons of use though. Rushton2010 (talk) 00:24, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071218061706/http://www.bbc.co.uk:80/wales/northwest/sites/bardsey/pages/bardseywildlife.shtml to http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest/sites/bardsey/pages/bardseywildlife.shtml

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Checked, but source doesn't confirm one of the facts attributed to it.Verbcatcher (talk) 16:18, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Ras y Brenin

On 19 September 2016 an unregistered editor added a section on "Ras y Brenin", a series of running races on 17 September 2016 over various distances up to Ultra Marathon. No citation is given. I am very dubious. an island only one mile long is an odd venue for races of over 26 miles. I can find no references on the Internet to this race. The Bardsey Trust website does not mention it. The Cwrw Llyn brewery is referred to, but their website does not mention it. The Pen Llyn Ultra was run in August 2016 on the mainland nearby and appears to be a different race. I suspect that this was an informal event by a group of friends, if so it does not merit mention. I will remove the paragraph. If this was an officially-sanctioned race organised by a club affiliated to a sports governing body then please reinstate the paragraph, and cite a reference. Verbcatcher (talk) 14:57, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110726032737/http://www.enlli.org/english/news/CAFN_winter07.pdf to http://www.enlli.org/english/news/CAFN_winter07.pdf
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110726032737/http://www.enlli.org/english/news/CAFN_winter07.pdf to http://www.enlli.org/english/news/CAFN_winter07.pdf
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100216010832/http://www.heneb.co.uk/llynhlc/llynhlcareasenglish/Bardsey1.html to http://www.heneb.co.uk/llynhlc/llynhlcareasenglish/Bardsey1.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140717141320/http://www.bardsey.org/english/the_island/pilgrims.htm to http://www.bardsey.org/english/the_island/pilgrims.htm
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111008071909/http://www.bardseyboattrips.com/map_e.htm to http://www.bardseyboattrips.com/map_e.htm

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Map

@RobinLeicester: thank you for adding the map. The map is significantly too large – it is out of proportion to the other images, and its large size may be awkward to readers using smaller screens such as tablets. I have tried changing it to zoom = 13| width = 220| height = 290, this gives a reasonable size, but the text does not rescale and becomes jumbled. Can you fix this? Verbcatcher (talk) 23:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

@Verbcatcher: I have halved the map scale, down to zoom=13 as you suggest (unfortunately there is no intermediate step) and rejigged the labels to make that work. At this scale I think the places named so far would be the upper limit of what could be included - at least under the current way this mapping works. I took out the BARDSEY label as it would overcross too much of the other text.

On phones and possibly on tablets, the mobile version handles images slightly differently, to stop screens getting crowded. (You can see this here, especially if you make a narrow window for it). Personally I liked the extra detail of coastline features and islets that the larger map gave, but I am sure I am biased, and if you are happy with this as it stands, then that is great by me. RobinLeicester (talk) 19:05, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

That is better, thank you. A more detailed map is available by clicking on full screen, but the full screen map excludes the text – can you fix this? Incidentally, I uploaded maps of two other Welsh islands from Ordnance Survey under the OS OpenData license: c:File:Caldey Island Map.png and c:File:Skomer map.png. Unfortunately, Ordnance Survey have since 'improved' their website and it seems to be much more awkward to get to their OpenData mapping. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:50, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Ynys Enlli more common name

Ynys Enlli seems to be the more commonly used name. I noticed this in particular today where new articles described "Ynys Enlli (Bardesy island)" as used by BBC news and North Wales live and "Ynys Enlli" only, used by the Guardian.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64731286

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/23/ynys-enlli-bardsey-island-off-welsh-coast-designated-dark-sky-sanctuary

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/dark-remote-north-wales-island-26305118

I will go ahead with a move to Ynys Enlli whilst also mentioning Bardsey Island name in lead and the Bardsey island redirect if this is agreeable. Titus Gold (talk) 15:44, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

It's not agreeable. English language Wiki has the English names - e.g. Anglesey, Snowdonia etc. Barry Wom (talk) 15:49, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

@Titus Gold, more evidence is needed than three articles. Happy to help but do not move (yet). DankJae 15:52, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

If the subject has a commonly used English language name then the English language Wikipedia will use that. Sionk (talk) 15:57, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

4. "Ynys Enlli" today https://www.newscientist.com/article/2361033-welsh-island-ynys-enlli-becomes-europes-first-dark-sky-sanctuary/

5."Ynys Enlli (Bardsey Island)" today https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-literally-this-welsh-island-with-little-light-pollution-has-just-received-a-rare-honour-12817223

6. "Ynys Enlli" today https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/uk/wales/wales-island-dark-sky-sanctuary-ynys-enlli-b2287990.html Titus Gold (talk) 15:58, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

@Titus Gold collecting evidence at User:DankJae/Welsh names#Bardsey Island for now, not yet done, while Google searches lean Bardsey Island, news sources (results) do lean Ynys Enlli so there could be a case. DankJae 16:06, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Of course news sources are currently leaning to the Welsh name; they're all parroting the press release from the trust which manages the island (whose website, noteably, is at bardsey.org). Barry Wom (talk) 17:20, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

7. "Ynys Enlli" https://nation.cymru/news/remote-welsh-island-named-europes-first-international-dark-sky-sanctuary/

8. "Ynys Enlli (Bardsey Island)" https://guce.aol.co.uk/copyConsent?sessionId=3_cc-session_504434bf-1e70-44b5-a350-8706cc594c98&lang=en-GB

9. "Ynys Enlli (Bardsey Island)" https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/this-welsh-island-officially-has-one-of-the-best-views-of-the-night-sky-in-the-world_uk_63f759ece4b0a1ee149873d3

Seems quite clearly leaning to Ynys Enlli. Titus Gold (talk) 16:08, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

10. "Ynys Enlli" https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-11784475/Welsh-island-Ynys-Enlli-Dark-Sky-Sanctuary-Europe.html

11. "Ynys Enlli (Bardsey Island") https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/this-island-in-wales-officially-has-one-of-the-best-night-skies-in-the-world-022323

12. "Ynys Enlli (Bardsey Island" https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/news/ynys-enlli-bardsey-island-dark-sky/

13."Ynys Enlli (Bardsey Island)" https://uk.news.yahoo.com/international-dark-sky-sanctuary-certification-100833229.html

14. "Ynys Enlli" https://www.northwaleschronicle.co.uk/news/23341071.ynys-enlli-becomes-first-dark-sky-sanctuary-europe/

15. "Ynys Enlli, also known as Bardsey Island" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wales-64736076

(Again all of these from today. Plenty of evidence here.) Titus Gold (talk) 16:13, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Before 2020 there seems to a be more of an even split use of both terms but since 2020 there seems to be a clear predominance of Ynys Enlli, particularly more recently. Titus Gold (talk) 16:18, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

As Barry Wom says, all of these examples relate to the press announcement about the dark skies designation. You're basing your examples on one news item. Do a Google search for "Bardsey Island" -dark" and there are numerous examples of news articles on a variety of topics, including from North Wales Live, North Wales Post, Wales Online that headline with "Bardsey Island". Sionk (talk) 17:42, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Yep per @Sionk, seems Ynys Enlli is to be used for the Dark Sky Sanctuary itself, The Trust still uses Bardsey Island, but uses Ynys Enlli for the sanctuary. More sources not about the Dark Sky Sanctuary but the island are needed. Google search leans Bardsey (84,300) vs (40,400) as do Google Trends. Google News results intially leaned Ynys Enlli, but when excluding "Dark", slight lean back to Bardsey.

I do believe however, should Ynys Enlli be considered a English term now? I.e. "Bardsey Island" also known as "Ynys Enlli"? Although the current one is ok. DankJae 19:27, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

No, it's Welsh. "Ynys" means island. Barry Wom (talk) 11:47, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

The vast majority of place names in Wales are Welsh but are also considered the English term, e.g Aberystwyth is in Welsh, meaning something like "Agile estuary", but is also considered the English place name. Ynys Enlli being used by English medium media means it should be considered both a Welsh and English term. Titus Gold (talk) 12:16, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

And there's also plenty of examples of Welsh place names which also have English names (Cardiff, Swansea, Newport). What you're proposing would be the first ever instance of a Welsh place name with an associated English name to have the Welsh name also considered to be English. Barry Wom (talk) 12:28, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

"Agile estuary" First time I have heard it called that. Aberystwyth is the mouth of the Ystwyth river, which is more commonly translated as "winding" rather than agile. Aber is an interesting word, as it really means a confluence of waters, a minor one into a major one, which is why sometimes you find an aber inland, where a small river joins a large one (e.g. Aberhonddu). But that aside, Aberystwyth is a name that is reasonably closely pronounced by English speakers looking at the word. An English speaker may not trill the r or pronounce the first y correctly, but it's pretty close. Ynys Enlli, on the other hand, contains a sound not found in English, and is perhaps not recognisably an English word. I have lost count of the number of people I heard calling Henllys "Henleys". I don't think Ynys Enlli is readily recognised as an English word. Why does it matter? Can't we just put it in a lang-cy template? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:34, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes you're right, the mouth of the river Ystwyth (I was providing a literal translation). English medium media already calls the island Ynys Enlli so it's definitely recognisable to English-only speakers. I would suggest something like "Bardsey Island or Ynys Enlli as it is also known in both Welsh and English language" which would more appropriately address what @DankJae was referring to. Titus Gold (talk) 17:10, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

To repeat, the only reason that the press is currently referring to it as "Ynys Enlli" is because of the wording of the dark sky press release. Every single one of the 14 examples cited above all provide the English name in addition to the Welsh name. If it was indeed generally accepted as an English place name, why would they all provide a translation? Barry Wom (talk) 17:41, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

You're making unfounded assumptions. Ynys Enlli has been used as the primary name by English medium articles before the recent announcement. In some cases Ynys Enlli is the only name used, similarly to the recent announcement. Sometimes the term "also known as" is used afterwards to refer to the Bardsey name. See the evidence below of some examples:

1. https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/electric-cars-could-powered-gwynedd-20231101
2. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/12/country-diary-sweeping-views-from-the-citadel-of-light
3. https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2022/08/aidan_roberts_on_isles_of_wonder_sit_8c+-73129
4. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/lifestyle/welsh-homes/tiny-cottage-sea-views-aberdaron-20591053
5. https://nation.cymru/news/ynys-enlli-bardsey-island-broadband/
6. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jan/29/dream-job-what-happened-next
7. https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/meet-family-whove-given-up-15936238
8. https://www.dailypost.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/stunning-spring-walk-takes-you-16002965

Titus Gold (talk) 18:31, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Again, all but two of those also provide the English term. And of those two, one insists on using Welsh placenames throughout (Penmaen Dewi instead of St. David's Head). Barry Wom (talk) 18:49, 24 February 2023 (UTC)