Talk:Bataha Santiago

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 13:49, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Bataha Santiago, third king of Manganitu, enrolled in University of Santo Tomas at age of 44 in 1666? Source: https://www.manadonews.co.id/2022/08/16/makam-bataha-santiago-gelap-gulita/
• ALT1: ... that an Indonesian military command, Korem 131/Santiago in North Sulawesi was named after Bataha Santiago? Source: https://www.manadonews.co.id/2022/08/16/makam-bataha-santiago-gelap-gulita/
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Mochamad Hasbi
  • Comment: New, CE needed probably, other hooks suggestion welcome

Created by Nyanardsan (talk). Self-nominated at 05:47, 3 December 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting: - n

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Nyanardsan: Good article. Did some copyediting for you. You could make a hook about how he burned all cloves as defiance as the hooks are boring in a way. Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:33, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

• Apologize for late respond, added QPQ. However, I disagree with the hook being boring and I prefer to avoid the cloves one as I only found it on one source and not anywhere else. Is it possible? Santo Tomas University is the oldest in Asia and 1600s for a Western-style university education is rare among Asians Nyanardsan (talk) 06:13, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I am a Filipino myself and unless people know the significance of UST I don't think readers outside Southeast Asia will be intrigued by the hook. Maybe you can propose a different angle here? The first hook is marginally intriguing while the second hook is rather pedestrian. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:58, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

ALT2 ... that the Dutch East India Company sent sultans and kings from Maluku to personally persuade Bataha Santiago? Nyanardsan (talk) 03:03, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

@Nyanardsan: I'm not particularly a fan of this one, because, well, persuade him to do what? Possibly work out that bit with Narutolovehinata5. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 09:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

ALT3 ... that Bataha Santiago, third king of Manganitu, was nominated to be National Hero of Indonesia by the North Sulawesi provincial government? SL93 (talk) 08:19, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

@Onegreatjoke, Theleekycauldron, and Narutolovehinata5: SL93 (talk) 08:19, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

It's marginally better than the original hooks, but I'm not actually sure if it's enough to intrigue readers. Other reviewers may have a different opinion of course. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:42, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure either. It's the best that I could find. SL93 (talk) 08:44, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

This nom has been quite stall that I forgot it exist for a while, I apologize. Is an article where presumably there's nothing interesting to mention despite fulfilling other more technical criteria (5x expansion/new enough by the time of nomination, verified, etc) a reason to fail it? Because I still wish this to be nominated, especially that it is a lesser known figure (East Indonesia history is very underepresented). So I still think its too unfortunate if it fails because "nothing interesting to be found in the article". I personally could not gather much more to add so I think all hooks proposed here are already all the possible hooks from the article. Nyanardsan (talk) 14:57, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Even if an article meets the technical requirements, the intriguingness criterion is still a criterion and so a nomination that fails to meet it can still be rejected for not meeting a DYK requirement. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:21, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm adding to the ALT2, ... that the Dutch East India Company sent sultans and kings from Maluku to personally persuade Bataha Santiago to sign trade agreements'? I hope this is interesting enough Nyanardsan (talk) 17:47, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I frankly feel that ALT2 doesn't address the original concerns regarding the intriguingness of the hook, and upon checking the article again myself I can't think of any possible hook information that could meet that criterion. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:25, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

• I very much appreciate the work that has been done to this article, but I just don't think there's any material in the article that would meet intriguingness guidelines. ALT2 still seemed reliant on special knowledge (i.e. knowing where Maluku is), and as someone with an interest in history it really isn't anything out of the ordinary where a colonizing power asked a local leader to sign trade agreements: it happened all the time. Perhaps ALT3 has the most promise among all the proposals, but both I and the proposer have reservations if it's actually enough to intrigue other editors. I'll have to think about this more over the next few days, but right now I'm thinking that either ALT3 is the only suitable option, or it's not suitable either and the nomination will have to be closed as unsuccessful. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:37, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
• After giving this some thought I don't think there's much of a path forward for the nomination anymore. I do have some sympathies for ALT3 but overall it's still not exactly much of an intriguing hook anyway. It's probably for the best to let this one go and perhaps bring another Indonesian historic figure to DYK. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

  Nyan, i thought i might offer a few alternative hooks to try to save this nomination.

  ALT0q: ... that King Bataha Santiago's parents sent him to school when he was 44 years old?

  ALT4: ... that King Bataha Santiago was still finishing his studies when his father abdicated?

  ALT5: ... that King Bataha Santiago, who was hanged after losing a war he declared against a corporation, is considered a hero in North Sulawesi?

  admittedly, these suggestions still need to be vetted for accuracy, but i wanted to propose them to see if they had any merit before someone else failed this nomination. in particular, i am not positive about the timing of his father's abdication, as i appear to be unable to access the lolombulan source.

  i am not sure if alt0q would be rejected for being interpreted as unduly negative (which is interesting since it is actually based on something positive) or for being misleading, so i am proposing it as a quirky hook, since i believe a bit more leniency is given for that slot. i also linked "school" to the university so that astute readers familiar with the context can understand the joke early.

  as an aside, the manado news source appears to state that it is quoting from wikipedia, though i cannot tell how much of it is actually based on wikipedia. if it turns out that the manado news source is unusable, then the one reference cited by the id wikipedia article might be a suitable substitute. dying (talk) 06:44, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

  • Thank you so much for offering alt hooks. I can access the book sources which are most reliable among sources used in the article compared to others so I will replace and find better sources when needed. Here's full public access to the source by Lolombulan (https://pustaka.kebudayaan.kemdikbud.go.id/index.php?p=show_detail&id=7442&keywords=) Nyanardsan (talk) 09:31, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

If I were to pick a hook, I think I'd only support the first suggestion (the one about him being sent to school by his parents at 44). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:43, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

• Reviewer needed to finish this review, including giving an opinion of ALT0q, which I agree seems to be the interesting one in the bunch. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:10, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Hook seems interesting enough for me. Onegreatjoke (talk) 17:47, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Cloves

@Nyanardsan: The article says that Santiago burned down all cloves in his possessions as sign of defiance. I don't read Indonesian, so I can't say for certain, but I think this is incorrect. The source on which this information is based (via Indonesian Wikipeda) is translated by Google as saying The contents of the Lange Contract which Santiago rejected included instructions to eliminate clove plants and all objects considered infidel by the VOC. In other words, the VOC ordered him to burn his cloves but he refused. Sojourner in the earth (talk) 09:42, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Fixed, deleted the part. Thanks for mentioning it, I had concern with the source previously but I wasnt sure what that phrase actually meant. I apologize for being careless about it. Nyanardsan (talk) 12:07, 5 February 2023 (UTC)