Talk:Bazjaš monastery

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. There is little evidence of what formal name is used for each monastery. In some cases editors on opposite sides appear to agree about the factual situation (e.g. Nyttend and No Such User). Yet Nyttend argues that the lack of data should cause us to go ahead with 'Foo Monastery' while No Such User wants to leave the titles alone and use WP:MOSCAPS as advice to be conservative. For this set of articles, with the existing knowledge (or lack thereof) of the real names of the monasteries it is hard to go forward with capitalization. This problem is not confined to Serbian monasteries. As In ictu oculi observes, we do not refer to St Andrew's Church, Wanborough as Wanborough Church. EdJohnston (talk) 01:30, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

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{{requested move/dated}}

• Bazjaš monastery → Bazjaš Monastery
• Beočin monastery → Beočin Monastery
• Bođani monastery → Bođani Monastery
• Bukovo monastery → Bukovo Monastery
• Divša monastery → Divša Monastery
• Fenek monastery → Fenek Monastery
• Glogovac monastery → Glogovac Monastery
• Gornjak monastery → Gornjak Monastery
• Gračanica monastery → Gračanica Monastery
• Hajdučica monastery → Hajdučica Monastery
• Holy Trinity monastery, Kikinda → Holy Trinity Monastery, Kikinda
• Kalenić monastery → Kalenić Monastery
• Koroglaš monastery → Koroglaš Monastery
• Kovilj monastery → Kovilj Monastery
• Kovilje monastery → Kovilje Monastery
• Kuveždin monastery → Kuveždin Monastery
• Manasija monastery → Manasija Monastery
• Mesić monastery → Mesić Monastery
• Mileševa monastery → Mileševa Monastery
• Petkovica monastery → Petkovica Monastery
• Pokajnica monastery → Pokajnica Monastery
• Privina Glava monastery → Privina Glava Monastery
• Rača monastery → Rača Monastery
• Savina monastery (Serbia) → Savina Monastery (Serbia)
• Šišatovac monastery → Šišatovac Monastery
• Sombor monastery → Sombor Monastery
• Središte monastery → Središte Monastery
• Studenica monastery → Studenica Monastery
• Vojlovica monastery → Vojlovica Monastery
• Vraćevšnica monastery → Vraćevšnica Monastery

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• [And 34 others similar listed below.], asked for as uncontroversial "(M) capitalization" by Relisted for further input. Jafeluv (talk) 06:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Zoupan at 16:00, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

  The two that were not M capitalization were moved to a separate request. Apteva (talk) 17:52, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment—I believe these should not proceed. As WP:MOSCAPS says, "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalisation". Chicago MOS and Oxford's New Hart's are similar. Compare US administration, Australian government, Hubble's law. Tony (talk) 03:33, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

• See Wikipedia:WikiProject Architecture: featured content on buildings use capitalisation.--Zoupan 06:23, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• That's the point exactly... Those examples, such as Sydney Opera House, are all proper nouns. If there were another opera house in Sydney, then it would be another Sydney opera house, but there's only one Sydney Opera House. Andrewa (talk) 17:21, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support. English capitalization is different from other languages. There are not a lot of English articles about these monasteries, this one[1] uses a capital M. In the native language, Romanian, Bazjaš monastery does not capitalize M here.[2] Looking at Category:Christian monastery stubs, most of these capitalize the M, or A, in Monastery and Abbey. Apteva (talk) 18:07, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. The proposed article titles may be correct if they were actually names in English (e.g. as in Westminster Abbey), but it is not appropriate for us to create such when these institutions are hardly known in English. The fact that capitalisation is used incorrectly in some other references or other places in Wikipedia does not make it correct here. Examples of the correct usage are numerous - e.g. most rail stations where the words 'rail station' are not part of the name, e.g. Broad Green railway station. Imc (talk) 21:46, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Even in Serbian, where the attributive precedes the head noun, it is unclear if manastir 'monastery' is part of the proper name or just an attributive. For example, the last sentence of [3] spells manastir Studenica. At least, there is a mixed bag: some monasteries are named after the nearby village (or vice versa, doesn't matter) (so it's tentatively Kovilj Monastery -- the Monastery of Kovilj), and some are not (Manasija monastery -- monastery named "Manasija" ), but it is way too subtle, and it's hard to tell one from another. So, since it is unclear if there is a 'correct' capitalization, I'd prefer to go on WP:MOSCAPS, and leave the titles alone. No such user (talk) 07:18, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• Still, in that case the majority is moved to "X Monastery", besides Manasija, Mileševa, Hajdučica, Pokajnica, Studenica etc. Upon agreement, we could change the requests for these. I would even omit "monastery" from the latter examples as per primary topic.--Zoupan 17:15, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose It's not clear that the names are all proper nouns, per No such user. Avoid unnecessary caps per WP:MOSCAP. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 05:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Despite claims to the contrary, these clearly are proper names and in English all elements of proper names are capitalised. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:49, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support, except any for which we have clear evidence that it has some other name, e.g. "Foo monastery" because it's St. Elijah's Monastery in the town of Foo. For monasteries named "Foo" and not named something like "St. Elijah's", English usage says that the second word is a proper noun and should be capitalised. Let's move all of them and fix the St. Elijah-type monasteries individually later. Nyttend (talk) 03:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - I don't have an opinion on the vote, it seems to me that this is an English MOS issue and the capitalization guidelines on en.wp are not 100% clear to me. However please note per sr:Списак манастира у Србији, sr:Категорија:Српски манастири that the proper name of a monastery in the former Yugoslavia is invariably Манастир Светог [name of saint], just as in England St Andrew's Church, Wanborough is "Wanborough church." For most of these monastery stubs we're simply lacking information on the relevant saint name - for example fr:Monastère de Lesnovo (sorry, doesn't even have an en.wp stub) the sr.wp sr:Манастир Лесново shows in the lead "(посвећен светом Архангелу Михајлу и пустињаку Гаврилу Лесновском)" meaning Monastery of Archangel Michael, Lesnovo would be the proper name. The same is true with the couple of Romanian stubs included, I'll walk through a Romanian example if anyone wants, but ro:Mănăstirea Sfinții Apostoli Petru și Pavel din Huși should make it clear that "Monastery of Saints Peter and Paul in Huşi" = Huşi monastery. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:46, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

It seems to me there's a common thread between this proposal and the current RM at Talk:Black Ice (synchronized skating team) which may suggest some tweaking of the MOS. Andrewa (talk) 17:21, 15 May 2013 (UTC)