Talk:Beatrice, Nebraska

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• Sbmeirow • Talk • 07:27, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

List-defined references

I am in the middle of a fairly major upgrade of this article, including the addition of a number of citations. To make this easier, and to facilitate future edits, I'd like to switch it over to list-defined references (see WP:LDR). Would there be any objection from previous editors to my doing this? I would of course make sure that all earlier citations were converted to the new format. --Ammodramus (talk) 02:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Name

After which Beatrice is Beatrice named? Opera hat (talk) 00:23, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

None of these; see "History" section of article. Ammodramus (talk) 02:12, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

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Pronunciation

@Kbb2: There are two ways to pronounce this name phonetically based on the phonemic transcriptions /biˈætrɪs/ bee-AT-riss, which might be represented as 1. [biˈæt.ɹɪs] versus 2. [biˈæ.tɹɪs] (or [biˈæ.tʃɹɪs] or possibly[biˈæt.tɹɪs] if you insist on /æ/ only being possible in a closed syllable), correct? It turns out I was wrong initially though, and the second one is actually how it's pronounced. What concerns me is that the "respell" transcription doesn't seem to represent that. It represents a pronunciation of [biˈæt.ɹɪs]. Any knowledge of WP respell key? (For example, I imagine we would not transcribe mattress as MAT-riss. It would have to be something like MA(T)-triss, since the second syllable is certainly triss not riss). Wolfdog (talk) 14:16, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

@Wolfdog: Per LPD, both words contain a word-final /tr/: /biˈætr.ɪs/, /ˈmætr.əs/ (/ɪ/ in the second syllable is a conservative RP pronunciation). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

@Kbb2: Do you mean "syllable-final"? And I've never heard of that syllabication in any dictionary... /biˈætr.ɪs/?? (Also, /ɪ/ is perfectly acceptable [see here, though that's not the issue I was asking about.) I'll ask editors for help at Help_talk:Pronunciation_respelling_key. Wolfdog (talk) 18:23, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

I usually delete the pronunciation per MOS:LEADPRON. Is there some conflicting policy? Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:28, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Wait what? Why would you delete the pronunciation in this case? Wolfdog (talk) 18:30, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

It's pronunciation is apparent from its spelling. Like the milk company or the princess. How complicated can it be? Magnolia677 (talk) 18:50, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Her distant cousin Eugenie, less apparent. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:54, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't know about you, but I've never heard Beatrice pronounced /biˈætrɪs/. The standard pronunciation is /ˈbiːətrɪs/ and I've also heard among my NY relatives and perhaps others /ˈbiːtrɪs/. Wolfdog (talk) 21:41, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

@Wolfdog: Please accept my apology, you are correct. It is indeed a wonky pronunciation, see [1]. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:35, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

No need to apologize! Wolfdog (talk) 19:17, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

@Nardog: I recall now that we've already had this conversation a few years ago here and also Help_talk:Pronunciation_respelling_key/Archive_4#Mattress, with no real outcome. Wolfdog (talk) 11:09, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Syllabification is normally omitted in IPA, so I don't understand why this is an issue at all. We can just not mark it. Nardog (talk) 11:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. Again, you can see the archived chat for my reasons why: /tr/ midword can leave a reader with phonetic ambiguity. Wolfdog (talk) 11:18, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The archive chat is about respelling while what you edited is IPA. There is no ambiguity when there is no morphological boundary. That's like saying /t/ leaves a reader with ambiguity as to whether it represents [t], [ɾ], or [ʔ]. Well, duh, that's determined by position. If that's an issue then virtually all phonemic transcriptions are problematic. Nardog (talk) 11:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I understand all this. My point is /biˈæ.trɪs/ (or /biˈætr.ɪs/ in Well's analysis) is pronounced differently from /biˈæt.rɪs/, and not providing the syllable break may leave readers uncertain which way to lean. I was intending to help readers with this having just reread some old Wells stuff. Wolfdog (talk) 11:34, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Syllabification wouldn't resolve the ambiguity. In fact CEPD does (and most linguists would AFAIU) syllabify e.g. citrus as /ˈsɪt.rəs/. That's what Collins & Mees mean by "running counter to current thinking in phonology"; in phonology, it's taken as axiomatic that no two words differ in syllabification alone. It's not a syllable boundary that blocks the affrication; it's a morphological boundary.

I can see indicating the syllable boundary where /tr/ is not affricated, as in /ˈbɪt.reɪt/ for bitrate, to call readers' attention to the lack of affrication, as no one would syllabify it otherwise and /ˈbɪt#reɪt/ wouldn't be understood as well. But indicating the syllable boundary where /tr/ is affricated doesn't help because not only do there exist competing ideas for where the boundary should be, but /biˈæt.rɪs/ is a totally legitimate (if not the most common!) way to syllabify the affricated pronunciation. Nardog (talk) 04:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Huh! Interesting. I'd've assumed that "current thinking in phonology" would try to align syllabification with phonological clarity (or sometimes even phonetic) at the expense of morphology, etymology, etc. I'm a little baffled by how contentious syllabification still is, but thanks -- I appreciate your background knowledge. Wolfdog (talk) 11:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)