Talk:Beit Alfa

Hebrew page

Here is the Hebrew Wikipedia page - http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/בית_אלפא Would really like for someone to add more about the amazing mosaic located there.

you can find more at Beit Alfa Synagogue --Sreifa (talk) 05:42, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Article name

Someone changed half the article to Beit Alpha. Personally I don't know which is correct, although one would have to prove that Beit Alpha is the common name or widely accepted English-language name. Any sources? —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 08:54, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Here; Here; here; here; here; here; here; here. Also, the kibbutz shares the name of the synagoge, which has thousands of sources citing "Beit Alpha". KamelTebaast 15:02, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

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Faqqu'a

There are a three things wrong with the present wording related to Faqqu'a:

1) Separation barrier is a term used exclusively by Palestinian nationalists.

2) Even if the acceptable and offical term was used, Security fence, it has no place being in this location section. There are more than 500 ancient and famous sites near Beit Alfa, and barely any are mentioned. [Gan HaShlosha National Park boarders the kibbutz to the East, but was not stated.] It is POV pushing for a cause unrelated to this article.

3) Faqqu'a's main article does not refer to Faqqu'a as a "Palestinian village", but it does state that Faqqu'a is under the "administration of the Palestinian Authority since 1995.

Therefore, if Faqqu'a is to be added to the location, suggested wording should be:

In the vicinity of Beit Alfa are the Gan HaShlosha National Park, the kibbutzim Heftziba, Sde Nahum, Nir David, Reshafim, and Ma'ale Gilboa, and to the south, in the West Bank, the village of Faqqua. KamelTebaast 04:24, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Oh, bullshit, the official name is גדר ההפרדה = separation fence. It is even the name of the article in the Hebrew wiki. Go there and argue about it. Zero^talk 12:45, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Lets go one by one.

1) The official Israeli term is "Security Fenece" (גדר הבטחון). However, most Israeli media sources usually say "Seperation Fence" (גדר ההפרדה) and some international medias or scholars use the term "Seperation Barrier" (to emphasis it is not only a fence, but also not only a wall". "Seperation Barrier" is probably the most neutral term and is also used by the Hebrew Wikipedia.

2) Both the Seperation Barrier and the Green Line are relevent as they are both de-facto borders. If you want to add other historical sites, you are very welcomed to do so.

3) Faqqu'a is a Palestinian village and there is no further discussion needed. It is in the Palestinian Authority, in the Palestinian Territories, administered by a PLO controled government, claimed by a PLO-declared State of Palestine. Faqqu'a is no less Palestinian than Ramallah or Hebron.

There is a problem in your wording, becuase all the Kibbutzim you state are inside the State of Israel, but Faqqu'a is not. There is no problem is writting "In the vicinty of Metula are the Kibbutzim Misgav Am and Kfar Giladi to the south and Lebanese village Kafr Kila to the west".--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:24, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Ill just use the name of the wall article, but this apparent aversion to the word Palestinian wont go far. nableezy - 15:27, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Also I think we can try an made a clickable map with the entire Gilboa region that isn't supposed to be that hard to make.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:51, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

BAT

Deleting line: According to The Guardian, BAT sold water cannons to the apartheid regime in South Africa in the 1980s in a "secret pact." Source does not state that Beit Alfa sold water cannons; does not state that it was in the 1980s, and nowhere in the article is a connection made between the "secret pact" and Beit Alfa WP:UNDUE. KamelTebaast 06:21, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Removing line: Beit Alfa Trailer Company counters that its intention to sell equipment to a location such as Zimbabwe is actually humane, that "demonstrators would be faced with water cannons, not live ammunition". Poorly sourced (Beit Alfa Trailer Company is not its name). Sentence was in response to previous sentence that has been deleted. KamelTebaast 06:24, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

References

On kibbutz, not in kibbutz...

I am addressing edits that were made here. In the English speaking world, it has always been accepted to say "on kibbutz" not "in kibbutz". See examples: Reverting changes accordingly. KamelTebaast 00:16, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

While I would appreciate more input here from other editors, your usage appears to be simply incorrect. For example 'on Beit Alfa' is a context-less word combination that doesn't really work. Other than that I mostly made changes to make the text more readable, it's not about specific usage. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 08:11, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Ynhockey, not only is it my usage, but it is accepted usage in The Wall Street Journal, The Jerusalem Post, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, Haaretz, kibbutz.org, The Jewish Agency for Israel, The Algemeiner, Jewish Telegraphic Agency, The Jewish Journal, Daily Mail, The Times of Israel, Arutz Sheva, Columbia.edu, Forward, J-Weekly, and the Kibbutz Program Center. Can we put this to rest? KamelTebaast 17:09, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

As I said, on a kibbutz is fine, on Beit Alfa is not. None of your links provide this kind of usage. If you look here, you will notice that none of the search results (except those that copy this very page) have your usage. There are however many results for in Beit Alfa. In short, you can use 'on' with 'kibbutz', but you can't use 'on' with the name of the kibbutz. In many contexts (like 'to meet on ...') it can mean 'to meet on the subject of ...'. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:27, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Actually, you never wrote "on a kibbutz is fine". The larger point is "on kibbutz", which is sourced. That is short for "on kibbutz Beit Alpha", which means you can take the kibbutz out and you're left with "on Beit Alpha". KamelTebaast 23:14, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Ynhockey is perfectly correct that "on Beit Alfa" is bad. You can't use this sort of logical argument to determine correctness in a human language. Why argue for a fringe construction when there is a common construction available? Zero^talk 03:00, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

A traditional stand-up comic line is that when they tell you to get on the plane they really want you to get in the plane. I have a recollection that this was discussed somewhere years ago on Wikipedia, sorry, in Wikipedia, but I can't find it. Like with most English peculiarities, it's hard to give definite rules. One can be born in New York, but never on New York, but on the other hand it is fine to be born on a farm in Tennessee but never in a farm in Tennessee. It isn't just a matter of the size of the place, either, since you can't be born on Tennessee. If you think of a kibbutz as a village, you will be born in it, but if you think of a kibbutz as a farm you will be born on it. I think that both usages are correct. Zero^talk 23:53, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

On the other hand, "Actor, writer, producer, comedian Seth Rogen's parents met on Beit Alfa." is borderline. More standard would be "met at Beit Alfa". But what is Seth Rogan, and even his photo, doing here at all? His connection fails WP:WEIGHT. Zero^talk 00:19, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

If you're born in New York, were you born on or in the street? I agree that Rogen's photo does not need to be included (I'll revert), but he is alive because his parents met on Beit Alpha. KamelTebaast 23:18, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

"On the street" is a standard construction. You can be born in a car on the street in New York on Earth in the Milky Way. Zero^talk 03:00, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Kibbutz Beit Alpha was not named after an Arab village

There are many problems with the lede as written:

1. Beit Alpha took it's name directly from the the synagogue located on the adjacent kibbutz, not from an "Arab village, Khirbet Bait Ilfa". (I'm presently researching sources on that.)
2. If the synagogue took it's name from Khirbet Bait Ilfa or Hilfa (as mentioned in the Talmud), that is for the synagogue's article, not Beit Alpha's article, and most definately not in the lede.
3. As presently written, it reads: "... took their name from Arab village, Khirbet Bait Ilfa, that once stood on the site." According to the source (page 299, The Oxford Encyclopedia of Archaeology in the Near East), it reads in full: "The city is named after the nearby ruins of Khirbet Beit Ilfa; it shows no occupation before the Roman period." "Nearby" is not "once stood on the site", nor did it mention "Arab". [These are further examples of Wikiwashing to change history.] Therefore, I am deleting the line. When I find the source that the kibbutz took its name from the synagogue I'll add that. KamelTebaast 16:45, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Removed

The kibbutz as well as the archaeological site nearby containing the remains of an ancient synagogue, took their name from Arab village, Khirbet Bait Ilfa, that once stood on the site.

That is removing a good source from the lead, instead of placing it down in the history section, with the information suitably modified according to what you verified, i.e.the logical procedure.

You are removing from the lead a mention of its possible prior Arab history, which you deny, while affirming merely that you are still researching the question. Meaning you don't know, but have decided the issue while still seeking evidence to confirm your suspicion. Well one doesn't remove stuff on a suspicion.

1. (1)'Kibbutz Beit Alpha was not named after an Arab village.'

The source says:'Beth Alpha ..was settled by Ptolemaic Greeks and was part of Scythopolis, one of the cities of the Roman Decapolis. The city is named after the nearby ruins of Khirbet Beit Ilfa.'

Note that the source you removed also said that the site was originally Greek, and was settled in the much earlier Ptolemaic era. So what you did was ignore the early Greek history, erase the (possible) Arab connection, and by removing the RS on it, consolidating an image that this was a place with only a Jewish history. POV pushing, by erasing sources that show cultural complexity.

• The source you removed indicates that Beth Alpha was named after the nearby ruins called, in Arabic/bearing the Arabic name, Khirbet Beit Ilfa.

Had you retained the source but rewritten it along those lines, one would have no complaint. However

It took me a few seconds to find the following remark.

(The synagogue) was part of a prosperous village called Bet Alfa, which survived during the Islamic period as Beit Ilfa . . Jewish settlers founded the Bet Alfa kibbutz in 1921 nearby the abandoned Arab village of Beit Ilfa.(Sie (the synagogue of that name) gehörte zu einem wohlhabenden Dorf mit dem Namen Bet Alfa, der in islamischer Zeit als Beit Ilfa fortlebte. . .In der Nähe des verlassenen arabischen Dorfes Beit Ilfa gründeten jüdische Siedler 1921 den Kibbutz Bet Alfa.' Erhard Gorys, ‎Andrea Gorys , Heiliges Land: ein 10,000 Jahre altes Kulturland zwischen Mittelmeer, Rotem Meer und Jordan, DuMont Reiseverlag, 2006 p.216.

Please note that Andrea Gorys is a qualified German archaeologist.Nishidani (talk) 17:56, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

The source given is clearly written about the synagogue and does not mention the kibbutz. [Again, that should be dealt with in the article about the synagogue.] Regarding your new source, Gorys, it does not state that the kibbutz took its name from the village. [Again, note, there was Hilfa in the area mentioned in the Talmud.] The biggest problem with the sentence deleted was that it read that the kibbutz was named after an Arab village "that once stood on the site." Even your source disputes that.

Do you agree that according to reputable sources, kibbutz Beit Alpha is not sitting on the location that was once the Arab village of Beit Ilfa?

I'll add to location that the kibbutz is located near an abandoned Arab village Khirbet Beit Ilfa KamelTebaast 18:36, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

What you are doing is equivocating. 2 sources say 'nearby Bet Alpha' stood Khirbit Beit Ilfa from which the kibbutz and the named synagogue derive their names, a site with a Ptolemaic and an Arab history, apparently. All you needed to do was change 'that one stood on the site' to 'nearby the site'. The synagogue belonged to Bet Alpha which became Beit Ilfa, according to the German source, meaning - and I don't see why you can't understand this - means the Synagogue is at Beit Ilfa, and Bet Alfa is nearby. Instead you made a total mess, that will require corrective surgery to patch it up.Nishidani (talk) 19:13, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't read German and so far, it seems no sources state on the location. Very little, if any surgery needed. KamelTebaast 19:24, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

I gave you a translation, and what I wrote above is what the German text states. Don't stonewall. The source I provided means your whole argument above has, in the light of this new source, collapsed, along with the edit. I'll wait until User:Zero0000 comments, if he can spare the time, just to not rush this.Nishidani (talk) 19:55, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Again, I'm scratching my head after reading you. My main argument was that the sources supplied did not state that the kibbutz sits on land where Khirbet Beit Ilfa once stood. Do you or do you not agree? KamelTebaast 20:11, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Is English a foreign language for you? I replied above.Nishidani (talk) 20:13, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

The kibbutz was founded in 1922 and the synagogue was discovered in 1928. So how could the kibbutz be named after the synagogue? (Let's leave aside that no evidence has been found in the synagogue to indicate what its original name was.) To be thorough here, we need to check that the kibbutz had this name before the synagogue was discovered. Enter one map of the Jezreel Valley by the the Palestine Land Development Co, published in Jerusalem 1925. There the place is written in Hebrew בית אלפא and in English Beit Ilfa. Similarly "Jewish Colony of Beit Ilfa" in this 1924 article. So without a doubt the kibbutz adopted the existing name of the place and wasn't named after the synagogue. In those days it was commonplace for Jewish settlements to adapt the local Arabic names. As for exact locations, as far as I can figure out the original buildings of the kibbutz were about 500m east of the ruins of the Arab village. Zero^talk 11:02, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Grazie, maestro.Nishidani (talk) 11:36, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

One of course has to keep in mind that the village was not abandoned as a consequence of Jewish settlement. From 19th century accounts it was already long deserted (as a community village residence) which in any case is the alternative meaning of 'verlassen', which I rendered as abandoned. At the same time, as often, one has to remember that there is a prejudice in our foreign terminology, almost never mentioned by writers. 'Abandoned' 'deserted' reflects a metropolitan concept of urban life, whereas in a pastoral economy, these khirbets functioned as traveler way-stations or nomadic-pastoral dwellings cyclically through any year.Nishidani (talk) 11:42, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

The only apparent anomaly is Gutmann saying 'Beth Alpha was settled by Ptolemaic Greeks and was part of Scythopolis, one of the cities of the Roman Decapolis', and reported by KT as saying '"The city shows no occupation before the Roman period." '

The only way to reconcile this is to assume that the Ptolemaic Greeks settled there after 63BCE and before 30 BCE. That is a commonsensical inference but WP:SYNTH.Nishidani (talk) 12:03, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

In any case, thanks to this contretemps we now have as sources to remodulate the removed lead line.

What do you propose and why do you suggest that it belongs in the lede? KamelTebaast 15:47, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

• G.J.H. Ovenden, ‘Mount Gilboa,’ Palestine Exploration Quarterly Vol. 56, Issue 4 1924 pp.193-195
• Erhard Gorys, ‎Andrea Gorys , Heiliges Land: ein 10,000 Jahre altes Kulturland zwischen Mittelmeer, Rotem Meer und Jordan, DuMont Reiseverlag, 2006 p.216Sie (the synagogue of that name) gehörte zu einem wohlhabenden Dorf mit dem Namen Bet Alfa, der in islamischer Zeit als Beit Ilfa fortlebte. . .In der Nähe des verlassenen arabischen Dorfes Beit Ilfa gründeten jüdische Siedler 1921 den Kibbutz Bet Alfa.'
• Joseph Gutmann, 'Beth Alpha,' in E. M. Meyers (ed.), The Oxford Encyclopedia of Archaeology in the Near East, Oxford University Press 1997 p.299. Nishidani (talk) 12:03, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

There you go... [1] named after the nearby ruined Arab village, which may have preserved an older name. You can thank me later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omysfysfybmm (talk • contribs) 17:25, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Following is from "The Ancient Synagogue of Beth Alpha" by Eleazar Lipa Sukenik, pages 10 and 11:

The present writer is of the opinion that the old name is still closely preserved in Arabic. Many places in Palestine are connected with personal names: for example, Kefar Nahum, Beth Hanina, Kefar Hanania. There is no doubt that names like these show that the land was formerly the private property of some great landowner who, perhaps, cultivated his and through tenants or slaves. Towns or village belonging to such individuals are mentioned in several passages in Talmudic literature. Of Rabbi Eleazar ben Harsum it is told that his rich father left him a thousand village. The most general name for such small settlements which supported themselves by agriculture, is Kiryatha. Rabbi Yehudah the Patriarch had twenty-four such "Kiryoth." The landowner may afterward have sold his land to his tenants or to others: or it might also happen that a place which belonged to many cultivators afterwards passed into the possession of a single person. If such a settlement arose on a previously unoccupied site it would most probably receive the landowners' name an continue to be known by his name even after the land ceased to be his private property. [emphasis mine]

The personal name Ilfa (אילפא) is known in Talmudic literature as the name of an Amora who was a companion from childhood of Rabbi Johanan bar Napaha. The name Beit-Ilfa given to this place points therefore to a "Kiryah" of which the land formerly belonged to or named Ilfa and which as cultivated by tenants who had settled there. [emphasis mine]

Accordingly, Beit Alpha was not named after the abandoned Arab Village, Khirbet Beit Ilfa, but rather after the original Jewish settlement. The Arab Village's name was basically a placeholder. If you want to create a history for the abandoned Arab Village, Khirbet Beit Ilfa, please write a Wiki article. The best you can put in this article is that the Kibbutz "shares" a common name with the abandoned Arab Village, Khirbet Beit Ilfa, both named after the original Jewish settlement. KamelTebaast 21:17, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

This is speculation on Sukenik's part, and he doesn't claim that it is more than speculation. Neither he nor anyone else established that there ever existed an ancient Jewish village of this name. The modern Jewish village took its name from the Arab village beyond any doubt and Sukenik does not deny that. Whether the Arab village took its name from an earlier Jewish name is unknown, despite speculations. It would be preposterous to write that the modern Jewish village took its name from an ancient place that is not attested in any historical writing. As noted above, it took its name even before it was known that an ancient settlement had been at the site. Zero^talk 22:47, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

If you state that Sukenik was "speculation", then I assume that you will also agree that all others were speculation when they wrote that the Kibbutz took its name Khirbet Beit Ilfa. It seems that the only RS that you will accept is a document from the kibbutz itself stating that it took the name from Khirbet Beit Ilfa. As such, it should now be removed from the article. I'll do it on Sunday. KamelTebaast 23:01, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

You really should stop threatening reverts. Can you provide any type of answer to the rather amazing feat of naming a village after something that wasnt even discovered at the time of its naming? nableezy - 23:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

KT: Not acceptable. One is based on evidence (unless you think it got the same name as the Arab village by accident) and the other is pure speculation. Sukenik explicitly states "there is no historic or literary memory bound up with the site where the remnants of the Beth Alpha synagogue were found" and beyond that offers a theory without evidence. Zero^talk 23:26, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Zero, it's not based on "evidence". It is speculation and synth. Unless you have documentation from the participants that founded the kibbutz and chose the name, it is all speculation. KamelTebaast 00:12, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

That's nonsense, and I'll note that Sukenik does not say that the kibbutzniks named their place after an ancient village. Only you are saying that, without evidence and against logic. Sukenik's theory only concerns how the Arab village got its name. Incidentally, your statement above "The Arab Village's name was basically a placeholder" will appear in your next AE case. Nobody who thinks statements like that are reasonable should be allowed on Wikipedia. Zero^talk 07:46, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

1. I'll first dispense with your implied threat and attack that I wrote something deserving to be banished from Wikipedia. My comment, in CONTEXT, only referred to Sukenik writing that in his opinion "the old name is still closely preserved in Arabic". Preserved --> Placeholder. Meaning, a placeholder in time. You want to take that to AE, be my guest.
2. Regarding the topic of which you are avoiding. The fact is that Sukenik did not write anywhere in his book that Beit Alpha took its name from the abandoned Arab village Khirbet Beit Ilfa. Your conjecture and theories are not acceptable and against Wikipedia policy. KamelTebaast 03:18, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

We have three fine sources saying that the kibbutz was named after the abandoned Arab village. It is two more than necessary. It is also Sukenik's obvious assumption, not that that matters. Zero^talk 07:25, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

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wikilink

Seriously, is the allergy to the use of Palestine so severe that it requires removing wikilinks? The Department of Antiquities in Jerusalem in 1928 that Frederick Herman (FK) Kisch wrote a letter to has an article on Wikipedia. That article is Department of Antiquities of Mandatory Palestine. For your first edit back from an indefinite topic ban, thats what you choose to do? Remove a wikilink because it says the word Palestine? nableezy - 21:51, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Oh, and for the second part of it, according to, now Im hoping you accept this as a reliable source, the Israeli Antiquities Authority, from the 1920 founding of the Department of Antiquities (Palestine Government) through 1926 it was managed by the same director as the British School of Archaeology in Jerusalem. Do you dispute that the Department of Antiquities that this article discusses is in fact an organ of the Palestine Government and not rather a generic British Department of Antiquities? nableezy - 22:12, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

It was truly a mistake removing the link. I meant to keep the link, but only change the wording, which I will do on Sunday, when I revert you. KamelTebaast 22:39, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

And you will revert me why? It was not some generic "British" Department of Antiquities, it was specifically a department of the government of Palestine. Why would you remove that? Earlier you tried removing Palestinian from a description of a nearby Palestinian village. So this is a repeated attempt to expunge the word Palestine. Why? nableezy - 22:59, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Please show me where I "tried removing Palestinian from a description of a nearby Palestinian village"? I take offense that you are accusing me of expunging the word Palestine. This is WP:CIVIL and you know that I have no problem reporting. KamelTebaast 23:06, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Are you going to answer my question? As far as your faux outrage, here. Report to your hearts content. Why are you repeatedly trying to remove the word Palestine and/or Palestinian from this article? Why specifically are you threatening to revert my edit restoring that this was a department of the Government of Palestine? nableezy - 23:19, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

In case there is still an issue here, "Mr. E. T. Richmond, Director of the Department of Antiquities" on page 7 of Sukenik uniquely identifies which Department of Antiquities is being referred to. There was in any case only one Department of Antiquities empowered to manage archaeological sites in Palestine. Zero^talk 08:06, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Nowhere on page 7 does it state the Palestine Department of Antiquities or the Department of Antiquities of Palestine or of the Government of Palestine. Again, that is your interpretation, or, as you stated above, "Only you are saying that, without evidence and against logic". You started this with this edit and even your own RS disputes what you wrote, and the other RS states the "British Department of Antiquities". KamelTebaast 02:56, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't consider your argument here to be serious. Everyone here including you knows it was the Department of Antiquities of the Government of Palestine. Zero^talk 07:28, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

I think its serious, just horseshit. Like he seriously thinks that such foolishness will fly. nableezy - 16:24, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Zero, next time I see you in AE, I'll show your link here. YOU created the Wiki article Department of Antiquities of Mandatory Palestine, yet when you linked it to the Beit Alfa article, you changed it to read "Department of Antiquities of the Government of Palestine". As an admin, please tell me what policies that violates, if any? And, to paraphrase you here, nobody who thinks doing things like that are reasonable should be allowed on Wikipedia. You can bellyache all you want about what I and everyone else "knows", and notwithstanding Nableezy's sound argument of "horseshit", your problems are that most RSs show otherwise:

British Department of Antiquities in Palestine

[2]

[3]

[4]

Department of Antiquities in Palestine

[5]

[6]

[7]

As compromise, I'll change accordingly. KamelTebaast 20:05, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Im not entirely sure what it is you think you are arguing here. The department was an agency of the Mandate government. Government of Palestine is not included as part of its name, its a description of it. What exactly are you disputing here? That it was not a government agency? What exactly is your problem here? nableezy - 20:10, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

@Nableezy: You reverted here without comment. KamelTebaast 20:31, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

My comment is immediately above yours. Ive asked you several questions over the course of this section. Would you care to take this opportunity to answer them? Namely, what exactly are you disputing here? That it was not a government agency? What exactly is your problem here? nableezy - 00:13, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

When I wrote Department of Antiquities of Mandatory Palestine, I was unsure what to name it and this question remains open. The reason for not using "Government of Palestine" in the title was that people would have had to read the text to see that it isn't an article on the modern State of Palestine. Titles should be as self-explanatory as possible. In the historical context as here, that problem doesn't exist and there is no reason whatever for not stating both the name of the department (Department of Antiquities) and the name of the government (Government of Palestine) that it was a department of. It's called good editing. Zero^talk 01:37, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Compromise

• Zero, you and I both know that by writing the "Government of Palestine", in two days, two weeks, or two months, it will get a link and will become Government of Palestine, which is NOW redirected to Palestinian Government. Even you wrote above that the "reason for not using "Government of Palestine" in the title was that people would have had to read the text to see that it isn't an article on the modern State of Palestine." Exactly the same point here. There is NO justification to place the words "Government of Palestine" next to it when a) that's not what the RSs show, b) that wasn't the usage at the time, and c) it is clear POV-pushing. Nableezy writes about "expunging" history, look no further than this. Rewriting history; Wikiwashing at its best.
• Based on your good faith solution here, I am willing to accept the following language change:

Permission to excavate the site was obtained from the Department of Antiquities (Mandatory Palestine) in the wake of a letter written by Frederick Hermann Kisch, head of the Political Department of the Jewish Agency’s Zionist Executive.

Thank you. KamelTebaast 03:36, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

No, I wrote you were attempting to expunge the word Palestine multiple times, and you were. As far as your unfounded fear of one day an inaccurate wikilink being added and that being the reason you should harp on a completely non controversial point here, well Im sorry to inform you but that makes no sense. How exactly is it POV pushing, blatantly so at that, to say an agency of the government of Palestine was an agency of the government of Palestine? The justification, in case you missed it, because you've repeatedly decided to ignore the questions Ive asked of you in the comments containing it earlier is that it explains what the department of antiquities was. It was a government agency. That government being in Palestine. Again, what exactly is your problem here? Do you dispute that the department of antiquities under discussion was part of the government of Palestine? Then why are you wasting this much time on this? nableezy - 05:20, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Aside from the many RSs that I provided above, following are RSs for the British Mandate for Palestine, an official term used in the 1920s for the area of discussion:

[8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18]

Why don't you provide RSs to back your addition of "Government of Palestine" to the Department of Antiquities? This will be my last explanation to you. KamelTebaast 07:35, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Jesus Christ, it is not a part of the name, it is a description. And Ive already given you a source for this here. You still have not answered my questions to you. What exactly is your problem here? Do you dispute that the department of antiquities under discussion was part of the government of Palestine? Then why are you wasting this much time on this? nableezy - 16:17, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

As far as the parentheses suggestion goes, that wont do either. We use parentheses in article titles to disambiguate pages, we dont in the prose of an article. We use, you know, prose to do that. nableezy - 05:24, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

That's fine. I'll soon change it to British Mandatory Department of Antiquities of Palestine Cheers. KamelTebaast 07:37, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Not ok. That would seem like its name, but it wasn't its name. Its name was "Department of Antiquities", its director was the "Director of Antiquities", and it was an organ of the Government of Palestine established by a law proclaimed by the Government of Palestine. These things are so because the law said so (and confirmed by the good sources you can find in that article), and it doesn't matter how many combinations of name and description you can find. Nableezy's use of a small "g" in "government of Palestine" is enough to indicate that that phrase wasn't part of the name (although it correct before too, as "Government of Palestine" is what it was always called in official documents). In the unlikely event of someone being silly enough to link it to State of Palestine, we can revert them. Zero^talk 10:53, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

• It presently reads: "Permission to excavate the site was obtained from the Department of Antiquities of the government of Palestine in the wake of a letter written by Frederick Hermann Kisch, head of the Political Department of the Jewish Agency’s Zionist Executive". Yet, the two RSs () contradict this. Again, to repeat, the Central Zionist Archives letter does not have "government (big or little g) of Palestine" and the website itself refers to it as the "British Department of Antiquities". Nor does the second RS, "The Ancient Synagogue of Beth Alpha" on page 7, as you falsely implied here. So you have two RSs that do not support your edit. On the other hand, I have shown many RSs to support any of my version(s).
• This is my final compromise, (that I previously proposed, but Nableezy rejected), to use only a link to the article that you created, Department of Antiquities (Mandatory Palestine), with no other additional words added. No British. No government of. No nothing. KamelTebaast 17:22, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Can you please, just once, answer the questions Ive asked of you? Here, one more time. Do you dispute that the department of antiquities under discussion here was a part of the government of Palestine, established by the British as part of the Mandate for Palestine by the League of Nations? What part of that do you dispute? Why? Are you under the impression that government of Palestine is anything other than a description of what the department was a part of? Do you not see why it would be necessary to establish why said department was a government agency when it is approving requests for excavations? Do you understand what "contradicts" means? Because a source not calling it the Department of Antiquities of the Government of Palestine does not contradict that it was a department of the government of Palestine. nableezy - 18:36, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Change it to whatever you want to, it will be reverted. You very clearly do not have an argument here and are completely incapable of answering simple straightforward questions. nableezy - 16:17, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

KT: Both the Kisch letter and Sukenik's book support the present text. It is not required for exact wordings to appear, and we are allowed to turn our brains on when editing. You do not have a case here and it is long past the point when you should give up on it. Zero^talk 23:03, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I rewrote the sentence to remove Kisch (no more than a messenger) and insert the Hebrew University (a major player with a much stronger case for inclusion). Incidentally, note how Sukenik writes "Government Department of Antiquities" on page 5, with a capital G even. Zero^talk 23:14, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed the capital "G" in government. However, not as you have again implied. It is not Government of Palestine as you recently inserted here, and I will revert. Rather, he writes:

"The workmen at once stopped their digging, and one of their number was sent to Jerusalem to announce the discovery to the Zionist executive, the Government Department of Antiquities and the Hebrew University, and to ask what to do with their discovery and how to continue their irrigation channel."

You have again failed to provide any RSs to back your POV-editing. KamelTebaast 23:49, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Now I see it was actually the Government of Sweden. How stupid of me to make that mistake. Zero^talk 00:17, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

What exactly is the POV here? Exactly and precisely, what POV do you imagine is being pushed here? Oh, and once again, since you continue to fail to actually pay attention to responses to you, the Israel Antiquities Authority has an interesting name for what the Department of Antiquities under the British was. Shocking, how POV of the Israeli government! nableezy - 00:31, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Copies of the original correspondence regarding the Beit Alpha excavations are in the IAA archives, all collected in a folder with Palestine Government on the cover. There you can see the watermark "Palestine Government" on the correspondence from the Director of Antiquities, you can see the excavation permit granted to Hebrew University "on behalf of the Government of Palestine" and you can see Hebrew University's correspondence to "Department of Antiquities, Government of Palestine". Can we stop this nonsense now, please? Zero^talk 01:41, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Very nice RSs, indeed! It's not my job to find RSs to back your edits. And thanks for the "nonsense" remark. I'll be sure to use that next time you pontificate about RSs, which is quite frequently. KamelTebaast 03:37, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

The text and its sources were all perfectly adequate before you wasted a lot of my time proving the sky is blue. And "nonsense" is the least word I'm going to use when this gets to a behavioral noticeboard. Zero^talk 03:47, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Not "Adequate", at best. KamelTebaast 04:22, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Go be annoying elsewhere please. Youve wasted a ton of time for no reason besides your dislike of the word Palestine. nableezy - 17:00, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

If requesting RSs to back your edits in the IP area is annoying to you, that's your issue. Now I'll add your "dislike of the word Palestine" WP:CIVIL comment to your growing file for future reference. KamelTebaast 18:39, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

You can keep up this petty game if you wish, but a citation for the department being a part of the government of Palestine was provided to you as the second comment of this section before you proceeded to ignore it and every question asked of you, tendentiously repeating assertions as though they had not been answered, making claims with no basis in policy. A file on me you say? Lol, feel free to keep one. You seem to be under the impression that the people you are interacting with are frightened by you, that they are awed by your intelligence and expertise and even your tactics. They are not. nableezy - 19:10, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

You can machine gun all the violations that you want. In the end, only Zero supplied a RS to back the text. KamelTebaast 19:24, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

This was provided to you before you even once responded. Good luck with the file. nableezy - 19:31, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

You're right, I didn't respond because it was a laughable RS: "(Palestine government)" in parentheses did not support the text. If you were so annoyed, and it was time wasting, why do you keep writing to me. You must enjoy this. You know I'm not going anywhere and I have nothing better to do. KamelTebaast 20:43, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

What support of the text? Jesus Christ, it was used to show the department was part of the government of Palestine. You seem to be under the foolish impression that every word in the article must appear verbatim in a source. Either that or, and my money is on this, youre just throwing a pile of crap against the wall in the hope one thing sticks and you can remove the word Palestine. And, in case you did not notice, that is the same organization that Zero gave you. The Israeli Antiquities Authority. Which unlike you doesnt seem to have a problem with a recognition that the agency under discussion here was part of the government of Palestine. And, genius, Im not the one that keeps saying this is my last response. Its as if you keep wanting to prove yourself wrong. nableezy - 21:01, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

References

visit of Czech president

"It was the first visit of a head of state in the British Mandate of Palestine." — Not true, King Faisal visited in the previous year and there may have been others. Zero^talk 08:40, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Zero0000, correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe he was actually head of state during the Mandate period. I remember he was appointed as the [nominal] Prime Minister of the Saudi state before becoming king, but that was only for a few years. So he wouldn’t have assumed such a position until the 1960s. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 10:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Symmachus Auxiliarus, you are correct. I linked to the wrong Faisal. It was Faisal I of Iraq. In the Palestine Bulletin of July 1, 1926, it says "H. M. King Faisal, ruler of Mesopotamia, will be in Jerusalem on Saturday evening". Zero^talk 12:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC)