Talk:Berlin Tempelhof Airport

Merge

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Factual error in article

In the article it is stated

The old terminal, originally constructed in 1927, became the world's first with an underground railway. The station has since been renamed Paradestraße, because the rebuilding of the airport in the 1930s required the airport access to be moved to a major intersection with a station now called Platz der Luftbrücke after the Berlin Airlift.

That is definitively not the case. The old terminal was in the northeast sector of the airport, slightly southwards to the radar tower erected in the 80s and slightly westwards of the islamic burial ground in Columbiadamm. http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1998-041-09,_Berlin,_Zentralflughafen,_Luftaufnahme.jpg&filetimestamp=20081212221543 is an aerial view of the site, the burial ground visible in the images utmost right. Road access was from the north (the image was taken looking roughly in north-western orientation), via Columbiadamm (named by Clarence D. Chamberlin's plane "Miss Columbia"). The image just shows the access road leading to Columbiadamm, but not Columbiadamm itself.

The subway station "Paradestraße" lies westward of the airport on the Tempelhofer Damm, and is about 1.5 km "as the crow flies" from the site of the old terminal building. On http://www.flughafentempelhof.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/090708_hofmann_kuehl.jpg the area of the old airport is designated as "2. Flughafenkomplex (ab 1925 bis 1945)" (2nd airport complex), the actual terminal building was located in the vicinity of what's described there as "Schießstand" (shooting range). The location of the subway station "Paradestraße" is far to the left, southwards of "Platz der Luftbrücke" (with it's iconic airlift memorial). Maybe the confusion stems from the subway station's primary name "Flughafen" (airport), which it had from it's opening in 1927 until 1937, when it became "Paradestraße" (parade street). The old name was then given to the station northwards of it, which till then was named "Kreuzberg", honoring the neighbouring borough of Kreuzberg. In 1975 the subway station "Flughafen" was renamed to "Platz der Luftbrücke" in memory of the 1948/49 airlift operation. 89.247.208.169 (talk) 18:52, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Built by slave labor?

When CNN reported the closing of Tempelhof this morning, the reporter said it was built by slave labor. It seems somewhat early in the Nazi era for that to be true -- more likely (at least to me) that this was still the era Hitler/Speer were employing the formerly unemployed for projects. Anyone have any evidence one way or the other? CsikosLo (talk) 10:43, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

POV

There is generally a US-Centric feel in the article, esp. the part about the cold war looks like directly out of cold war propaganda, i.e. the Sentence "The Western Allies had achieved their goals and returned a united city of Berlin to the unified German government." is just as much nonsense as the sentence "The USSR did achieve their goals and returned a united city of Berlin to the unified German government.".

---

Denying the history of Berlin and the events of the Cold War which transpired there between 1945 and 1994 disserves everyone. With the events of the Cold War, the erection of the Berlin Wall, and the several confrontations between the United States and Soviet Union over the status of Berlin, the role of Tempelhof in keeping a western presence in Berlin is indisputable.

The fact is that the United States provided the military force to keep the Soviets out of West Berlin and Tempelhof was a major facility in that effort for almost 50 years. One of the major goals of the West after World War II was to get rid that horrid Berlin Wall torn down and achieve a final political settlement with regards to division of Germany and Berlin.

The events of 1989/1990 and the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Union caused that to happen. Today all the people of Berlin and Germany live in freedom partly because of the United States presence at Tempelhof. When the goals of the United States were achieved, they left and returned Tempelhof to the German people.

The information I provided to this article is simply a statement of the historical record of the events between 1945 and 1994. The statement in question "The Western Allies had achieved their goals and returned a united city of Berlin to the unified German government" simply provides the rationale for that presence. It is a significat part of the article.

- bwmoll3. 12/14/06.

The fact is, in the original post-WWII environment it was agreed The Four Allies have equal responsibilities over Berlin, and Berlin is to be jointly administered/occupied until the final peace treaty is signed. Berlin Blockade in 1948 was to aim to cause the USA, Britain and France to withdraw from the western sectors of Berlin. In other words, the Soviets were attempting to renege on the Four Power Agreement. And in the process of unilaterally transferring the sovereignty of the Soviet sector of Berlin to the GDR agreement, it had indeed breached the agreement with the three Western Allies over the status of Berlin. The Western Allies were obliged to keep in Berlin until its status were resolved, which eventually came through the form of the Two plus four treaty in 1990. Thus the argument of the Western Allies actions being POV, IMHO, is invalid. --JNZ 11:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Restating slanted viewpoints rather than historically balanced or neutral ones does not make them less slanted or more solid. An article about an airporit, including Tempelhof, or especially Tempelhof, would be better served by attending to a balanced presentation. I feel also that the Nazi history of Tempelhof is neglected, as is that of its chief architect, Ernst Sagebiel, who worked on other Luftwaffe buildings of note. Also, the caption on the Luftbrücke denkmal is not quite accurate but I cannot figure out how to edit it, Actio 03:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)actio

Post-War Commercial Use

This section omits the important fact that commercial air transport services from THF resumed when Tempelhof Airways, a US-owned "third level" regional scheduled airline operating commuter aircraft with fewer than 20 seats, resumed year-round scheduled services to a number of regional destinations in West Germany in 1985.

Also, instead of having such elaborate details about the USAF's presence there during the Cold War, it would be far more useful to elaborate on the commercial airline operations at the airport during that period, especially prior to the BA/Pan Am move to Tegel on Sep. 1, 1975. Pimpom123 18:07, 11 January 2008 (GMT)

Have now updated and referenced relevant details. Pimpom123 15:19, 27 February 2008 (GMT)

False Sentence

"Boeing demonstrated its prototype 727 as the first jet transport plane in Tempelhof on 2 December 1964." doesn't make any sense. The 727 was (by far) not the "first jet transport plane" - the 707 and 720 that preceded it were also jets (and were also not the first). There was also the DeHavilland Comet, Douglas DC-8, SUD Caravelle, and others.

So I am now deleting this sentence.

Cold War

Have changed the sentence claiming that Tempelhof was the main West Berlin terminal for ALL Western Allies' military aircraft movements. This is only true as far as the US armed forces are concerned. The British and French had their own military air bases in West Berlin at RAF Gatow and the French military section on the northern side of Tegel, respectively. Pimpom123 15:24, 27 February 2008 (GMT)

Sydney Airport

The airport is simply called Sydney Airport, the article was moved a long time ago from Kingsford Smith International Airport as Sydney Airport was deemed the correct name. The anon user who keeps reverting my edits references Avalon Airport "as this is a different airport from Sydney's Avalon airport ". Avalon Airport is a secondary airport for Melbourne some 900 kilometres away from Sydney. The airport is called Sydney Airport, let's leave it that way. Mvjs (talk) 23:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move August 2008

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR (talk) 03:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Tempelhof International Airport → Berlin-Tempelhof Airport — At the moment the naming of the three Berlin airports is inconsequent: There is Berlin-Tegel Airport (de), Tempelhof International Airport (de), and Berlin-Schönefeld International Airport (de). Acutally, none of them bears the word "International" in its official name, but all of them contain the word "Berlin" (see links to their Wikipedia articles in German). Therefore Tempelhof and Schönefeld should be renamed and moved consistently to Berlin-Tempelhof Airport and Berlin-Schönefeld Airport. — Komischn (talk) 22:33, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose, Tempelhof Airport should be used instead, as it is the common name in English. 70.55.85.122 (talk) 08:05, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
• Comment Britannica calls this Tempelhof Central Airport 70.55.85.122 (talk) 08:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the German equivalent is "Zentralflughafen Berlin-Tempelhof" ("Berlin-Tempelhof Central Airport"), but this name appears historic nowadays since it isn't Berlin's only airport anymore. --Komischn (talk) 13:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose As WP:GERCON says, Wikipedia does not use the German-language system of hyphenating the subdivisions of municipalities, as this meaning is not intelligible in English, e.g. Spandau, not "Berlin-Spandau". So here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:03, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move II

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Moved to Berlin Tempelhof Airport.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 08:47, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

---

Tempelhof International Airport → Berlin Tempelhof Airport (Option A), alternatively → Tempelhof Airport (Option B) — the word International is not part of the name. While the English language does not use the hyphenating system as in <city>-<subdivision>, it does use a system of <city served> <actual location> (usually without hyphen, which would place the two names side-by-side) for airports as in London Heathrow Airport, Glasgow Prestwick Airport or Orlando Sanford International Airport. As the airport was not the airport serving the quarter of Tempelhof but the airport serving Berlin - located at Tempelhof - the name should be Berlin Tempelhof Airport. However, if there's no consensus to move it to Berlin Tempelhof Airport, it should at least be renamed to Tempelhof Airport (removing the International). -- 3247 (talk) 14:21, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support A''', *'''Support B''' or *'''Oppose both''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose the Encyclopedia Britannica uses "Tempelhof International Airport" 76.66.195.159 (talk) 14:58, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

• Actually, it uses "Tempelhof Central Airport" [2], which is outdated. -- 3247 (talk) 15:47, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support Even a quick google check can show that Berlin Templehof is the preferred version. Certainly the version I always hear. WP:COMMONNAME --Narson ~ Talk • 15:32, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Some googling:

• Tempelhof International Airport (without Berlin Tempelhof International Airport): 640 [3]
• Berlin Tempelhof International Airport: 417 [4]
• Tempelhof Airport (without Berlin Tempelhof Airport): 46,500 [5]
• Berlin Tempelhof Airport: 40,500 [6]

It's clear that International should not be part of the name. The only question is whether to include Berlin. I think that full-text search is giving the wrong impression because it's common to leave out the city name when it can be derived from context. For example, Google makes London Heathrow Airport less common than Heathrow Airport, too:

• Heathrow Airport (without London Heathrow Airport): 2,070,000 [7]
• London Heathrow Airport: 790,000 [8]

--3247 (talk) 16:10, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

The one search I think you missed out on there was '"Berlin Tempelhof" Airport'. A lot of the time it seems to get referred to just as Berlin Templehof (in the same way one says Tempelhof Airport without Berlin as Berlin can be gained from context, they say Berlin Tempelhof as Airport can be gained from contact). I get 240,000 results for that. --Narson ~ Talk • 20:04, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, for the records:

• Tempelhof (without Berlin Tempelhof): 335,000 [9] (note that Tempelhof is also a quarter of Berlin)
• Berlin Tempelhof: 251,000 [10] (note that Tempelhof is also a quarter of Berlin)
• Tempelhof (without Berlin Tempelhof) + airport: 56,300 [11]
• Berlin Tempelhof + airport: 108,000 [12]

-- 3247 (talk) 22:34, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

How odd, I get /much/ higher hits for "Berlin Templehof", for me it gets 1.3 million hits. Anyway, i think we are in agreement that Berlin Tempelhof Airport would be the common name that does not conflict? --Narson ~ Talk • 22:43, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

You're not restricting your search to pages in English, so you're also getting results for web pages in German, where Flughafen Berlin-Tempelhof is the most common usage. -- 3247 (talk) 23:35, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Ah! Thank explains it then. Thank you. Tricksy Germans having their own language! --Narson ~ Talk • 23:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Airplane icon position on map

The coordinates of the new airport template have moved the airplane icon back out of Templehof. How can you nudge the airplane silhouette back eastwards on map by about one plane width so that it actually is in Templehof again like I had it before? I realize, the actual coordinates should not be touched, but how can you fix this mistake otherwise so that the airplane icon really shows the precise location in Berlin? Alandeus (talk) 08:47, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Photos

The column of photos on the right-hand side of planes landing — except perhaps the first two — don't really illustrate Tempelhof; they could have been taken anywhere. Sca (talk) 15:50, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Agreed - one, now removed, said it was taken at Dublin! Meanwhile the rather important architecure is under-covered and under illustrated. Johnbod (talk) 18:39, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Post-airport usage

BREAD & BUTTER BERLIN tradeshow for selected brands ...
BREAD & BUTTER from Butterbrot, see www.breadandbutter.com
Berlin's largest fashion fair^‡ From: spiegel.de: http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/berliner-fashion-week-das-abc-der-modewelt-a-809422.html#bread_and_butter
Bread and Butter: Berlins größte Modemesse^‡ und «das tägliche Brot» der Modewoche. (Here some brands present that are known to the average consumer from their own wardrobes:) Hier stellt sich die eine oder andere Marke vor, die der Durchschnittsverbraucher aus dem eigenen Kleiderschrank kennt:
Levis, Pepe Jeans, Bench. 600 Brands aus den Bereichen Streetwear, Sportswear und Denim präsentieren sich auf dem Flughafen Tempelhof.
Categories:

• Fashion events in Germany
• Events in Berlin
• German fashion
• Fashion stubs

--Schwab7000 (talk) 11:43, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Refugee camp?

I visiting this Wiki because I just today (August 2016) visited and cycled around the park. No signs of any refugee camp. Can we get a citation on this refugee camp statement? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.189.28.73 (talk) 15:01, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I live by the field, and agree this sentence is misleading. There is a refugee camp, which was set up a couple of years ago, in the old terminal building. There is a large temporary structure outside of the terminal which I believe was built for the camp too. As far as I know it still houses refugees. The last sentence in the introduction is misleading as it suggests the camp led to the closure of the park, which isn't the case, and as the above comment illustrates, the camp is barely noticable to most park visitors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.128.80.58 (talk) 12:09, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

@88.128.80.58: Please change the wording next time, & do not diminish the citation templates. Those citation templates contain the information that they have for a reason, & reducing them to bare URLs is unacceptable. Peaceray (talk) 13:27, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

I hate IP editors as much as you - they're scum - but their concerns in this case were entirely valid. A simple rewrite of two sentences fixed that. I've done it myself. It's great that Wikipedia has policemen like yourself keeping order all the time - well done! - but in this case the IPs had a point. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 21:54, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

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