Talk:Biotic pump
Latest comment: 1 year ago by 103.152.141.18 in topic The biotic pump, how forests create rain
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The biotic pump, how forests create rain
edithttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKL40aBg-7E Rob de Laet (talk) 09:11, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Rob de Laet do you know who initiated this page? It is currently a stub. It would be good to see it expanded. It also merits inclusion in the climate portal @Climate Change Changers PeterBruce-Iri (talk) 17:55, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger I wopuld like to help expand this page. I am a published author, but new to Wikipedia. PeterBruce-Iri (talk) 23:45, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- I am not sure we really need this page. Probably the same concept is known under another term anyhow (I had never heard of "biotic pump" before). The pageviews have been very low: https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=all-time&pages=Biotic_pump. Here is another article with a similar name which is equally not ideal as a title for a Wikipedia article in my opinion: Biological pump EMsmile (talk) 10:31, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
- Hello, please check online about the biotic pump, more and more scientific articles have appeared about it in the last few years. It is an established scientific term now. Rob de Laet (talk) 11:07, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
- These terms come and go... How come the pageviews are so low for this article then? Very likely it can be covered within a larger topic article but does not need to have its own article. A Google search for "biotic pump" returns only 70,900 hits by the way. EMsmile (talk) 11:22, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
- Hi, it is a newly discovered phenomena since 2006 but has been gathering traction only very recently. There are even mathematical models created around it recently. We want to improve the page and then link it to the regeneration of the planet's biosphere as a powerful way to fight climate change. Thank you, Rob Rob de Laet (talk) 11:33, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
- These terms come and go... How come the pageviews are so low for this article then? Very likely it can be covered within a larger topic article but does not need to have its own article. A Google search for "biotic pump" returns only 70,900 hits by the way. EMsmile (talk) 11:22, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
- Hello, please check online about the biotic pump, more and more scientific articles have appeared about it in the last few years. It is an established scientific term now. Rob de Laet (talk) 11:07, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
- I am not sure we really need this page. Probably the same concept is known under another term anyhow (I had never heard of "biotic pump" before). The pageviews have been very low: https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=all-time&pages=Biotic_pump. Here is another article with a similar name which is equally not ideal as a title for a Wikipedia article in my opinion: Biological pump EMsmile (talk) 10:31, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger I wopuld like to help expand this page. I am a published author, but new to Wikipedia. PeterBruce-Iri (talk) 23:45, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- I think your article is developing well. I think you should add more emphasis on the positive bouancy of the water vapor immediately above the forest canopy. The solar energy intercepted by the leaves of the forest canopy result in water vapor and the enveloping air being warmer and highly buoyant with respect to the air above. This hot and moist air has the power to lift much more water to the upper atmosphere than the relative cool and heavy air immediately over the ocean surface. While world air temperatures climb, the ocean temperature lags behind. This creates an intensification of the inversion and water vapor is trapped at the oceans surface. Little attention is being placed on the dramatic differences between the marine layer inversion over much of the worlds ocean and the biotic pump created by large tropical forests. The destruction of the Amazon rainforest and the worlds largest biotic pump is affecting world drought. AquariusTom (talk) 18:37, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
- @AquariusTomDo you have citations to support this - that would be very helpful thanks. 2406:E003:DA5:8601:CC65:72EC:9714:119B (talk) 19:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- No, I do not have citations for studies of the differences between ocean evaporation and rainforest transpiration rates and resultant water vapor reaching the upper atmosphere where condensation can occur. I have little experience in researching the science literature. But even with my inexperience, there seems little scientific study of rainforests with regard to getting water from the surface to altitude. Studies of the marine layer, as here http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~iacob/ml_formation.html do explain the marine layer inversion without discussion of how effective the marine layer is at stopping the flow of water vapor to higher altitude. And nowhere can I find a study that says a hectare of rainforest canopy lifts X cubic meters of water to altitude on a hot summers day. Wish I did. The world suffers the double whammy of climate change and rainforest destruction that creates more drought. Opinion. AquariusTom (talk) 01:08, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hello AquariusTom, please take a look at this spreadsheet (tab 1 with amounts of water that get evaporated by the Amazon Rainforest) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jz6uJqII9qP098iK07ibKzD4YRH3LT-U/edit#gid=1654833101 103.152.141.18 (talk) 05:34, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- Impressive numbers for sure. Can all the energy upon the rainforest canopy be said to directly result in water transpiration? The hot air and water vapor mixture leaving the immediate surface of a canopy leaf must be considered. As the air/vapor rises, cooling air moves in to replace rising air. My thinking is that the mass of the cooling air inflow must be considered. Guessing this would require some sort of in-situ measurements atop the forest canopy. In addition to racing for sunlight, the requirement for cooling air flow from below the canopy height might explain the reason tropical forest canopy is generally very tall. Grasses and lesser vegetation can't do the same as tall rainforest trees. In the hydrology cycle, and just as important as the biotic pump, is the marine layer inversion and it's intensification as a result of global warming. AquariusTom (talk) 21:27, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- Dear Tom, some of the energy goes into the photosynthesis process as well, which is endothermic. I agree with your story on the updraft and love your intuition about the height of the canopy. I am not aware of the intensification of the marine layer inversion due to global warming, but I guess that once the biotic pump starts working in the morning, the air over the coastal waters will get sucked in by coastal forests. . 103.152.141.18 (talk) 00:10, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- Impressive numbers for sure. Can all the energy upon the rainforest canopy be said to directly result in water transpiration? The hot air and water vapor mixture leaving the immediate surface of a canopy leaf must be considered. As the air/vapor rises, cooling air moves in to replace rising air. My thinking is that the mass of the cooling air inflow must be considered. Guessing this would require some sort of in-situ measurements atop the forest canopy. In addition to racing for sunlight, the requirement for cooling air flow from below the canopy height might explain the reason tropical forest canopy is generally very tall. Grasses and lesser vegetation can't do the same as tall rainforest trees. In the hydrology cycle, and just as important as the biotic pump, is the marine layer inversion and it's intensification as a result of global warming. AquariusTom (talk) 21:27, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hello AquariusTom, please take a look at this spreadsheet (tab 1 with amounts of water that get evaporated by the Amazon Rainforest) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jz6uJqII9qP098iK07ibKzD4YRH3LT-U/edit#gid=1654833101 103.152.141.18 (talk) 05:34, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- No, I do not have citations for studies of the differences between ocean evaporation and rainforest transpiration rates and resultant water vapor reaching the upper atmosphere where condensation can occur. I have little experience in researching the science literature. But even with my inexperience, there seems little scientific study of rainforests with regard to getting water from the surface to altitude. Studies of the marine layer, as here http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~iacob/ml_formation.html do explain the marine layer inversion without discussion of how effective the marine layer is at stopping the flow of water vapor to higher altitude. And nowhere can I find a study that says a hectare of rainforest canopy lifts X cubic meters of water to altitude on a hot summers day. Wish I did. The world suffers the double whammy of climate change and rainforest destruction that creates more drought. Opinion. AquariusTom (talk) 01:08, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- @AquariusTomDo you have citations to support this - that would be very helpful thanks. 2406:E003:DA5:8601:CC65:72EC:9714:119B (talk) 19:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
Wiki Education assignment: Biogeochemical Cycles
edit
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2023 and 21 April 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JPOZ59 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Ebhughes20.
— Assignment last updated by MethanoJen (talk) 20:04, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
Hi, I hope everyone is having a great day. I am a student at GA Tech and will be editing this article for my Biogeochemical Cycles course this semester. I am excited to work on this topic and hope to bring reliable information that other can use when researching this topic JPOZ59 (talk) 20:25, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Good luck with your assignment, JPOZ59! Just be careful when adding new content: students often add new content that actually overlaps with content in related Wikipedia articles. So rather link to those related articles with short summary statements but don't add new content here that is already elsewhere. EMsmile (talk) 11:01, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Just a word of caution: This article was mainly written by User:PeterBruce-Iri who is still a new editor. When looking at this article briefly I find a lot of things that I would change. In parts, it reads more like a literature review than an encyclopedic entry. For example, there is no for providing the names of the authors who have written things - better to just state these as facts with references. I don't have time to get deeply involved but I just wanted to make sure you don't take this article as a "standard" for good Wikipedia articles. Compare also with and be inspired by Biological pump (strange that both articles have such similar titles). (@User:PeterBruce-Iri please don't be upset by my statement, I am not trying to be mean; it just takes a while to really learn the ropes around Wikipedia editing) EMsmile (talk) 11:12, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your prompt and courteous reply. I am new to Wikipedia and welcome your input, I will definitely take your advice as I begin work on this article. Thanks again and I hope you have a great weekend. JPOZ59 (talk) 17:49, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- I appreciate the tone of your feedback @EMsmile 2406:E003:DA5:8601:CC65:72EC:9714:119B (talk) 19:10, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- Just a word of caution: This article was mainly written by User:PeterBruce-Iri who is still a new editor. When looking at this article briefly I find a lot of things that I would change. In parts, it reads more like a literature review than an encyclopedic entry. For example, there is no for providing the names of the authors who have written things - better to just state these as facts with references. I don't have time to get deeply involved but I just wanted to make sure you don't take this article as a "standard" for good Wikipedia articles. Compare also with and be inspired by Biological pump (strange that both articles have such similar titles). (@User:PeterBruce-Iri please don't be upset by my statement, I am not trying to be mean; it just takes a while to really learn the ropes around Wikipedia editing) EMsmile (talk) 11:12, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Removed further reading list
editI've removed the further reading list as I regard it as not useful (relevant publications should be cited with in-line citations):
- Makarieva, Anastassia; Gorshkov, Victor (2010-01-01). "The Biotic Pump: Condensation, atmospheric dynamics and climate". International Journal of Water. 5 (4): 365–385. CiteSeerX 10.1.1.459.6577. doi:10.1504/IJW.2010.038729.
- Bruijnzeel, L.A. (2004-09-01). "Hydrological functions of tropical forests: not seeing the soil for the trees?". Agriculture, Ecosystems & Environment. 104 (1): 185–228. doi:10.1016/j.agee.2004.01.015. ISSN 0167-8809. S2CID 53510931.
- Makarieva, A. M.; Gorshkov, V. G. (2007-03-27). "Biotic pump of atmospheric moisture as driver of the hydrological cycle on land" (PDF). Hydrol. Earth Syst. Sci. 11 (2): 1013–1033. doi:10.5194/hess-11-1013-2007. ISSN 1607-7938. EMsmile (talk) 11:00, 13 February 2023 (UTC)