Talk:Black market in wartime France/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Clarification needed tag: reply but need suggestion

In In 1941, rationing was extended to chocolate, fruit and vegetables, shoes, textiles and tobacco, as non-smokers fed the black market[clarification needed] I believe the point is that if you didn't smoke you could sell your tobacco on the black market, but I am currently unable to formulate a better wording. That is what that is saying, however, if that helps. Elinruby (talk) 01:49, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Biens mal acquis

It's been a long time since I wrote the article, but the legal basis for that doctrine is post-war legislation to claw back black market proceeds. I am not certain why the article doesn't currently say so; maybe someone thought that detail was undue. In any event, yes this is indeed related, but i see why you didn't see it; this is me confirming it isn't there and I need to add it (back?) in. Leaving the link off and adding to my to-do. Elinruby (talk) 10:04, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Adding bsn meanwhile

Elin, in section § Participation you responded to a {{clarify}} request with a hidden comment, including something about "Adding bsn meanwhile" which completely went over my head. What was that all about? Mathglot (talk) 09:00, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

don't recall the comment but bsn would be "better source needed". Did I not add it? In several places I added html comments of what I think may be an answer to what tags, based on material that is still in the sandbox but not in the article, if I thought I knew one. Since I am still focused on putting this into english I have not attempted source verification but it seems clear that somebody was at least trying to be meticulous.Elinruby (talk) 17:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Found it, was just agreeing with the what tag Elinruby (talk) 20:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Section 3 in, section 4 in sandbox

I do not see any reference errors, thank you everybody.

Side note, I took a look at the talk page of the French article and it's also a group effort, which explains some of the repetition (for example that breaking the law was a matter of survival, over and over). The article is classified as "A" over there, and they want to make it a good article. To reduce edit conflicts etc I am going to stay out of the article.for the rest of the evening. There are some other articles I want to look at and it will be easier to cut/reorganize the article if it isn't a moving target. Elinruby (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

A small typo

Where it says, "As soon as the Germans were defeated, many producers and traders hid their stockpiles, particularly of industrial raw materials" shouldn't it be "As soon as the French were defeated..."? The Germans weren't defeated until 4 years later in 1944 which was the end of the rationing, right? 149.137.187.238 (talk) 21:18, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

rationing ended in 1949. But I remember thinking that that sentence was odd. At the time I was thinking that maybe they didn't want to make it easy for American soldiers to recognize them as German suppliers, but anything is possible including a brain bubble on my part. I'll check into it unless someone else does sooner. If there's a date discrepancy it might be the first section about 1940-1941 meeting the end of section 2 about 1942-1943 without a transition.

If you see this answer please feel free to tag this or anything else you find confusing by adding {{what|(reason this doesn't make sense)}}.

Thank you for pointing this out. Elinruby (talk) 22:00, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I found this and tagged it. Looks like this person is correct. I would still like to check the original for my own satisfaction, but if somebody wants to change Germany to France there I have no objections and am pretty sure that would be correct. Please leave the what tag up to help me find it again though. I will take it off after I determine whether I read too fast or the mistake was in the French text Elinruby (talk) 07:46, 19 August 2023 (UTC) -done with this, thank you IP editor Elinruby (talk) 02:06, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Section 2 in sandbox ready

I couldn't sleep last night and got some of it moved in. What has been moved into the article is commented out in sandbox. References still need to be done in sandbox; when I moved text in I referenced as I went.

I may edit a little today but nothing requiring concentration; the original fire quadrupled again and I need to get really serious about a go bag and a way to transport the cat. Wind died down though, there's that. Feel free to do what seems good with new text but please take into account that there is a lot more of it, and structure discussions probably need to consider spinoff articles. Not enamoured of the chronological approach but that is the way the French is organized Elinruby (talk) 22:51, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Wildfire moved away. Got some translation done in the draft last night, and also broke some named references, which I'll take care of later today.

Since the full article is so huge it is tempting to break it up by sections, but I think that would make the reorganization harder. And it does need a rewrite for organization. For example, Lafont and Joanovici aren't mentioned until section two, but were at their peak in the early period of the occupation. According to what I am working on now, the turning point that led to the crackdown on the black market was a decision came out of Berlin. Will try to narrow that down. Elinruby (talk) 18:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

There is a whole bunch of stuff not covered, even in this 1941 section. The whole response by the state at the beginning, is barely covered, for example. Who did what and why. scope_creep^Talk 22:52, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Feel free to put questions in what tags. I think part of this is that certain things about the occupation are blindingly obvious to the French (and possibly to me), but not necessarily anyone else. Went through this with Poland in that other article. It may be a good idea anyway to get some references in there that aren't Grenard, amnd I am willing, but am still banging my head on translation in the sandbox; this thing is ginormous PS: somewhere above I questioned a statement above the Milice. Scratch that. It's covered in the patriotic black market section and looks well-referenced, so the en-wiki article has a gap in coverage, vs this article having a mistake. Probably. Elinruby (talk) 00:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The editor seems to have have taken the majority from Grenard, certainly in that first main block Perhaps Grenard is an expert on it. I think anway we need to enrich with some of the sources we collected. I don't know what it will look like when its all translated, certainly. I may be more evenly referenced with other established author. It might be a cogent whole perfect in its manifestation, but I doubt it. I don't have a feeling for it, until I see it all translated. See how it goes. If it ends up more than 320k then it will need split. scope_creep^Talk 08:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Elinruby: Thats crazy about the wildfire. scope_creep^Talk 08:09, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

West Coast blues. Though I am in the mountains not on the beach. There are still bunch of fires since that last heat dome, but the firefighters seem pretty confident that the big aggressive one I was worried about is moving off. I'm still on evacuation alert though and the highway is still closed. Elinruby (talk) 18:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Regarding "Since the full article is so huge..., please don't feel compelled to translate all of it. Likely the attention span of anglophone readers for this topic is lower than for French readers (present company excepted, of course  ), so summary-style summarization, or dropping minor sections should definitely be an option. Don't feel you have to slavishly translate everything; a lot of it may not be up to snuff anyway, and I mistrust French verifiability, although this one seems to be really well sourced on the French side, even if their choice of footnote style is awful. Your call, of course, we're all volunteers here, but you can totally skip/summarize/drop sections that you don't think merit a presence in the English version. Up to you; but as long as you're enjoying it, go for it.

Fixing the refs in the Draft subpage was really tedious and annoying, but it looks like they ported over seamlessly, which was nice to see, except for the one exception with Grenard-2010a, which Scope creep fixed and hit 'Publish', about 30 seconds before I did for the same fix. Great minds, and all that... Mathglot (talk) 09:10, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I can take over the translation if need be, although it know it would need copyedited for translation errors. scope_creep^Talk 10:25, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

There is still a bit at the end of section 1, Scope creep, and feel free to tackle or work on any of the sections in the sandbox. As for translation quality, what you produce is fine. I just usually itch to copyedit what I read on Wikipedia, and people seem to agree that it's usually an improvement so I allow myself to do it. I just wanted to get a bigger chunk of this out because it seemed like it might answer at least some of the questions that were being asked. Mathglot here's the thing. Remember how I was talking about how boring this section was, because I was like loi du (date), calories, whatever, yada yada? The calories actually turn out to be quite notable, with patients starving, and it looks like prisoners and detainees too. But yeah, I nominate the section about the Catholic Church for summarization for a start. English Wikipedia is never going to have an article on the bishop of Rodez probably, unless he did something more notable than support rationing. (Although as I write that, I am thinking about how it must have felt to devout Catholics to be told to starve...)

The article does feel disorganized to me and I don't necessarily advocate keeping this structure, or all of this material, although again Persée seems to have a LOT of sources about how daily life looked at the time in Allier or Normandy or whatever so although we are pretty deep in a rabbit hole, it's one that can be sourced.

Anyway, yeah, editing will be required. But we're coming into the most surprising part of all if you ask me, the black market as patriotism. It just makes sense to me to translate then pare down, if that isn't too obnoxious. Sorry about that error last night btw -- I did do a scan for anything in a different color, but must have missed that, and then I went out to talk to my crazy neighbors about whether those were clouds or smoke plumes. Anyway. Not entirely sure what time it is in Scotland but if you're up feel free, Scope creep. I am not going to do anything with this for several hours at least.

There's a lunch on, going. Elinruby (talk) 18:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Morning @Elinruby: Where is the sandbox? I saw the draft page, some of the stuff seemed to be commented out and wasn't sure what was going on. 07:45, 24 August 2023 (UTC) scope_creep^Talk

as it stands right now at the sandbox is the last two sections of the French article. The html comments are to avoid a million errors about the unconverted parameters in some of the French templates that are different here. It is the post-war section and the memory section. What I did was edit within the html tags and take the tags off when it was ready. To put id another way, it is text that has been copied with attribution with the same header structure but has not otherwise been converted or translated. I am around but am not working on that and in fact need to go write about forest fires in the Amazon for a while or something. If you want to translate what's in the sandbox that would be great. You would be starting from scratch. And as an aside, since clearly the article will need to be split, do you think that the Armistice is a good breaking point? Elinruby (talk) 07:57, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

To-do thoughts

Mainly for myself, so I don't have to remember this stuff, but feel free to add tasks and strike any that are done.

1. A little bit at the end of section 1 is untranslated; needs either translation or a decision not to use it. I took a look at this today and it looks like someone has taken care of it
2. I skipped many of the alt fields on images in the interests of getting stuff done; be nice to do a pass to translate any that still need translating think this is done Elinruby (talk) 04:52, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
3. Most of the references still need a trans-title field-think this is done Elinruby (talk) 04:52, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
4. Thinking of translating Brigades nord-africaines
5. Flesh out references in Henri Lafont
6. Memory section in sandbox probably can flesh out #Media representation section in mainspace article seems be finished
7. Post-war section in sandbox remains to be translated
8. Biens mal acquis: this law was originally part of the épuration légale; looks like I skipped that part at the time since I was focused.on the Panama Papers part. I should fix that.
9. Admin law project: Decision on whether Vichy is in scope
10. Since this article currently, what, ten times the recommended size, we should discuss architecture of spinoffs.
    • I think I can summarize/spin off section 2, but should I?
    • I think the Catholic Church section could be summarized in about two sentences but should it be? It was a very Catholic country so the church's stance would have been important. But for en.wiki? Due weight question. Elinruby (talk) 23:47, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Regarding #3 (trans-title), most of the ones that needed one already had one, but I added empty |trans-title= elements to the citations that needed one but didn't already have one (used regex: \|title=([^|]+)\s*\|\s*(?!trans-title) to find them). To find the ones that need to be translated will now be easy, just search for |trans-title= (that trailing space is important), and fill them in. Mathglot (talk) 00:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

thank you. That would actually be a good task for me right now, think I will tackle that. I am not sure of the numbers, but I remember deciding that finishing was more important than trans-titles at a couple of different points. Nobody seems to be doing major rearranging in the article right now so I will start on that Elinruby (talk) 02:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Regarding #9, are we talking about Draft:Glossary of French administrative law? Or something else? Mathglot (talk) 05:48, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

pretty much. There's a bunch of agency names here is nothing else. And it's weird that they keep calling price controls taxation. But since the scope is already massive maybe I should stick to the Fifth Republic Elinruby (talk) 08:00, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Black market in wartime France/translation in progress

Hi @Elinruby: Is this the sandbox? Just a matter of translating a block and removing the commented out block? 13:09, 25 August 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scope creep (talk • contribs)

yep sorry to be unclear Elinruby (talk) 14:29, 25 August 2023 (UTC)::

Looks good Scope Creep.I got halfway through a read for continuity/cleanup before I got tired and had to quit. Also have a version of the pie chart with labels in English but I am waiting for an answer to my question about uploading it. I don't want to overwrite the French file. Elinruby (talk) 17:42, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

About to do a bunch of text moving

@Mathglot, Scope creep, and Piotrus:

I apparently overwrote much of what I've been calling section 2 (1942-1943) when I added section 3, because I am just... nm. Someone who just must do things the hard way somehow apparently. I've made about a hundred small edits since then so I will have to fix this manually. So this is possibly a good time to do some consolidation as I was discussing earlier. As I recall that section was stable with no errors, so likely this can be done with minimum drama. As a precaution I will proceed in small chunks when adding text back in, and am breaking out the laptop. Not trying to do this on the phone, although switching out of Mobile view does seem to have banished the problems I was.having.

I don't see anyone else editing the article right now so the sooner the better I guess. This will be in the middle of the article and shouldn't cause edit conflicts with any edits to the post-war period or the Media representations section we're talking about.

Piotrus you mentioned DYK a while back and I was thinking that several things here might be hooks, and the recent expansion probably qualifies it. The page says *five-fold* though, and as I was looking at byte total I noticed the huge deletion (net -9k+), so I should start by dealing with that. And any reorg I can get in along the way. It also has to be within 7 days of the expansion starting, so we might already be outside the eligible range. In any event, taking a serious look at that and will probably have questions. Suggestion for hooks welcome.

I would appreciate, while we are here, any thoughts on whether English speakers really care about what the bishop of Rodez thought about the black market. Clearly would have been important to a devout Catholic, but I can say that in a single sentence maybe. Maybe I should just comment out proposed deletions in case somebody hates what I have done? Elinruby (talk) 08:35, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Depends who the Bishop is and how influential he is. The catholic church was influential in certain aspects and they been reams been written about church and their interactions with the Nazi state, so it could be important with a lot of hidden depths. scope_creep^Talk 09:29, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Elinruby: Bishops are really senior within the Catholic church. Do we have a name for the man? scope_creep^Talk 10:06, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Charles Challiol. I'll take a look. scope_creep^Talk 10:08, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I fear that the article is not eligible for DYK, as those have to be new within 7 days or expanded 5x in that period. DYKs are a bit, well, <redacted>, in this regard. I usually recommend writing things in draftspace or nominating early (DYKs don't have to be comprehensive) then finishing them while the DYK ball starts rolling. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:33, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Nod, a catholic peasant probably cared a lot what his bishop thought. Just not sure the readers do, but you're right, I had forgotten about that controversy. It's in the text I just restore frpm my idiocy of a few days ago.Subheader is "No longer immoral". It could easily be that case that it's important but I am just not seeing it, like with the caloric allocations. Happy to go with consensus here too; my feelings about the Catholic Church are complicated and conceivably could be getting in the way.

I am done with big text moves for a bit btw. Still ging to try an edit, but nothing drastic, and right now since I have this device out I think I will see if I can get the labels on this graph into English. Elinruby (talk) 10:36, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

PS:Three bishops are mentioned, and all of them have articles on the French side but not English. I was picking on Eodez because I have no idea where it is, except probably it was in the zone libre Elinruby (talk) 10:39, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I couldn't find much on him apart from proving he existed, it was only 20 minute search, but there will much more on all of them, as they are Bishops. Lots hidden in the archives no doubt. Keep it all for the moment. scope_creep^Talk 12:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

perhaps of interest: [https://www.persee.fr /doc/rhef_0300-9505_1978_num_64_173_1620?q=marche+noi+seconde+guerre+mondiale

Le catholicisme français pendant la seconde guerre mondiale [article]

René Rémond, Revue d'histoire de l'Église de France Année 1978 173 pp. 203-213

French article is lightly sourced but does have some, in particular for "opposed the black market". Don't remember the sourcing on this but apparently he rang the church bells to celebrate the anniversary of the localantisemitic militia's founding. So ya there might well be a story there worth telling. Did you try Persee? It seems to have a lot of "daily life in WW2" articles. Wandering off Elinruby (talk) 20:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Media representations

First, I noticed my addition of Allo! Allo! that begun as see also has now been totally removed ([1]) by @GraemeLeggett. I'd disagree with this - arguably one of the most important props in the movie (The Fallen Madonna, judged not notable and to be merged, but still worth noting) was related to the black market theme. That said, we need a reference to show the relevance. I admit I am having trouble finding a good ref (passing connection made here?).

Second, I am concerned with that section as it seems to have some issues with MOS:TRIVIA, WP:IPC and WP:NOTTVTROPES. We should only list works which are discussed with analysis in the context of black market in France, using secondary sourcing. The section is not bad at first, but what is the relevance of the list on "Media representation involving the French Gestapo"? At minimum, this should go to French Gestapo article, not here, and being mostly unreferenced, I think this list should be simply deleted. I'll be bold and do just that. (I note that section seems to have been copied from that article - I tagged it there for rewrite/removal per cited policies). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:01, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Don't agree with removing it, especially since that section might become a spinoff, or at least I have proposed that.... So space is not really a reason to cut it Elinruby (talk) 04:57, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus: @Elinruby: It needed to be removed. Having recently watched the whole series for about the 8th time again in the UK, it only tangenitally linked at the most tenuous level and not really anything to do with the Black Market. scope_creep^Talk 06:08, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Maybe I shouldn't have conflated the two issues (Allo Allo and the list of French Gestapo in media). I am not insisting on re-adding Allo Allo, but the underreferenced list of media featuring French Gestapo is not relevant ot this article, nor encyclopedic per policies cited. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:14, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Huh. Well, I haven't watched it. Was going by the length of time on the air among other things. What do people think about spinning off the section though, since we are all here? I don't usually create that kind of article but I read the policy and there do seem to be enough notable mentions to justify an article, no? Assuming adequate references exist of course Elinruby (talk) 06:16, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Spinning off what? The current media representations seems fine and in no need to be spun off. I removed the Gestapo list as I think it fails TRIVIA/IPC/NOTTVTROPES. Similar stuff in the forms of stand alone lists is routinely deleted or rewritten, see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Popular_culture&action=history _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus:@Elinruby: I think it ideal that the "Carlingue" section went. I tried to find information on the Black Market in the context of Patrick Modiano, the nobel prize winner, but couldn't see much. The rest was quite tenous, at best. Spent a couple of hours and it wasn't really on target. What is there is now much for better for it. scope_creep^Talk 06:27, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

And it is preserved for now at Carlingue#Media_portrayals, but I think it should be removed from that article as well, per policies cited (although even better would be if someone rewrote that section into prose). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

PS. Modiano example seems, arguably, more relevant here then there. I am not opposed to moving it back here, as the sentence Patrick Modiano, French winner of the 2014 Nobel Prize for literature, has written several novels set in occupied Paris during the war years, mysteries of memory and alienation related to his exploration of his own father's activities as a black marketeer. does not mention French gestapo/Carlingue but does mention the concept of black market in France. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:43, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus:@Elinruby: I think somebody else should have a go on Patrick Modiano. See if they can see anything. scope_creep^Talk 21:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Pie chart

  One (27%)

  Two (32%)

  Three (12%)

  Four (9%)

  Other (20%)

You might be able to do what you want dynamically, and not have to upload anything. Mathglot (talk) 21:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

wow Elinruby (talk) 05:38, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Historical memory

Hi Folks. I noticed there is a history memory section that is akin to out representations in media and has some images but it covers the two main works. Does it need translated in the sandbox. I guess it will need copied over as it seems to go into greater detail on the two main works. I'll do it. scope_creep^Talk 13:59, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Blank space

There seems to be a large blank space in the middle of the article. scope_creep^Talk 22:11, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

What section? I had one going when I was re-inserting text, so I could find the place when I switched screens, but I thought I fixed it when I was done. Going back for another look. It's probably what I am talking about above, and ok to close it up, but I am trying to check it. Elinruby (talk) 23:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

In the "Who profited" section. It starts when the sentence ends "fragmentation of the supply chain allowed the larger traffickers to avoid arrest". Its still, a huge while blob. No text. Its really weird. scope_creep^Talk 23:18, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

There was a "clear" template there, to clear the section. It should never have been in there. scope_creep^Talk 23:19, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok so I don't need to look for it because it's fixed? Elinruby (talk) 23:23, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

@GraemeLeggett: I removed that clear template last night, not realising you'd put it in. I hope I've not damaged something. I thought it was something to do with my browser. scope_creep^Talk 09:39, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Sources

Going to spend some time on this this afternoon. On Modiano right now. I take it we want stuff specifically mentioning the black market? I will put these in the Sources subsections above and start a subsection for Modiano and any other themes that emerge; propaganda seems likely for example. Elinruby (talk) 23:39, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

• Grenard 2008 does not seem to be available online anywhere. Elinruby (talk) 07:08, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

This [2] scope_creep^Talk 09:41, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Au bon beurre quote review

@Elinruby: That quote from the review needs proper translation. @Mathglot: has put a clarification on it. The book is set in a diary, but it needs a proper translation. scope_creep^Talk 20:49, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Took a shot at it. Mathglot (talk) 21:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Nice one. I can actually understand it now and its a really good quote. scope_creep^Talk 21:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I can see why you were asking. Nothing like Le Monde for exercising one's vocabulary. I had to look a couple of words up (sournois). I think Mathglot may have done better with it than I would have. I may at some point have a quibble over Juno vs goddess or hard curves or something like that, but it would be a stylistic quibble. Has either of you seen this show? Wondering if it is saying her body was hard or her personality. The translation is correct with no errors though; not sure yet if it can be improved upon, but I am back to being distracted by why is the smoke so much worse, so I am probably out until much later in the evening at the earliest. Need to gather some intel from the crazy neighbours. On the plus side, somebody knocked on my door yesterday and gave me a mask and a flyer informing me that the fire is still out of control, so at least the people who'd be doing an evacuation know I am back here up this dirt road, which is something I was wondering about before. Still on evacuation alert not order though.

While I was staying out of the way last night I finished up (I think) with something I fished out of the copy-edit pile a while back: Arnaud-Michel d'Abbadie. It breaks my rule of never messing with bios but it's an interesting story about an under-covered area. It still suffers from over-reliance on his own account of events but I am not certain how many sources there actually are on 19th-century Ethiopia.

While I am this far off-topic, one of the names it uses for an ethnic group is apparently now considered offensive. Should I change that, do you think, or does the historical context over-ride? I got into an argument about this once with a WMF "ambassador" who didn't see the problem with calling indigenous people "savages" so I am a little confused on this point. I am inclined to just change it since there is no well-intentioned editor in this case who thinks that the fact that there was racism needs to be proven Elinruby (talk) 23:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

What section is contained in? scope_creep^Talk 01:15, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

(back from recon) This was a couple years ago on a page about killing indigenous children. Historical racism did not need to be proven, was my point, and blockquoting it was more like endorsing it. Or, oh, if you are talking about d'Abbadie, the offensive name is Gallo. I can find it later if you want. Fire status is neither better nor worse Elinruby (talk) 02:31, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

In popular media

Somebody changed the media section name "In popular media". That really can't be used, because it will be seen as WP:TRIVIA. scope_creep^Talk 23:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Not sure what's up with the title but do we need some more sources in that section? I am willing to scroll through Persee this afternoon Elinruby (talk) 23:25, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I've changed it to something else, but I think we need a better name at some point. scope_creep^Talk 23:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I did. "In popular media" etc is a common section title in many wikipedia articles including history ones (eg Stalag_Luft_III#In_popular_culture. WP:TRIVIA refers to content that is trivial not the section name. If the content of the section is valid for inclusion then it stands, no one will delete the section because of its title. GraemeLeggett (talk) 07:24, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Those pesky French century templates

Is anyone running into any of those pesky, French century templates like S-, that resolve to something like "XIX^ème siècle" over there, but end up as red, "missing template S-" errors over here? Well, I've fixed that: you can now just leave all those S- templates in place, because I've created a workaround template, {{Nth century}}, and added a redirect Template:S- to it. So now, you can just leave the d*@#!@ French template in place, and it won't go red anymore, and will resolve to "19th century" (or whatever the correct century is) instead. Even better: it's triggered to notify AnomieBOT, which will come around later and subst it, so in the end, the article will just have "19th century" in the wikicode, and no trace that there ever was a template there earlier.

For more details about this, please see WT:Translation#Handling templates from the source language article, and if you have more French templates that go red if they are copied into an article here, please add some feedfback at that discussion. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 21:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I nominate the comma template {{,}}. I'm not sure why it exists but it's annoying and the algorithm would be simple Elinruby (talk) 05:45, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Since that's pretty easy to fix with global replace (offline), that one is not a particular problem for me, but it did make me start thinking about a more general on-wiki solution, so I started working on a template for it, but started falling down endless rabbit holes, having to do with what gets evaluated when, when you pass a string that contains a template in it, to another template, that wants to look for the curlies in the template transclusion code *before* it gets substituted by mediawiki into whatever the template is supposed to do. You can view various (mostly failed) attempts in the history of User:Mathglot/sandbox/Templates/French translation prep. It's kind of stalled for the time being, because I thought it would be quite easy and it's not, and I don't want to waste too much time on it right now. Hopefully later. Mathglot (talk) 10:46, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Three types

I seem to remember there was a subsection named, "Three types", which was further subdivided into sections, and had some good content before I got there, which I tried to improve. But I don't see it at all, now. Did it get renamed to something? Mathglot (talk) 10:54, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Is that the control, economy.... types that you see in fr article? scope_creep^Talk 13:38, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Was this the overview section at the beginning of the three phases? Take a look at "Background". If that's not it, I don't think I know. Elinruby (talk)

That's it; you can see it in rev. 1170735073 here. The phases were: 1) Early condemnation, 2) Emergence of grey market, and 3) Robust participation. Some of the text is still in the article, but spread around so the concept of "three phases" has been lost, and the third section is gone. #1 is still there, now located under § Public response; #2 is still there, now a subsection under § Origins, but not #3. Was this concept of "three phases" an important concept to retain? So much of the article is laser-focused on minute details, with not so much coverage from 40,000 feet as this section once did, and seems like the kind of thing a casual reader who's not going to read the whole article, might benefit from, as it describes the evolution over a period of years. Mathglot (talk) 07:31, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the third phase was renamed "Patriotism", which I have been meaning to address. as it doesn't convey, at least to me, what was patriotic, and completely elides the idea that it was seen as patriotic to circumvent the system. I agree with the comment about the headers not being idiomatic. I published the article much too soon and this has led to a great deal of confusion. Yes the three phases are important as they are, from 40,000 feet, quite different: 1) Germans buying everything 2) Vichy regulations 3) Civil disobedience.

I am going to put in a resource exchange request for Grenard 2008, which does not seem to be available online anywhere, even in snippets. I will also spend some time on referencing and what tags today.

Speaking of: under "pages issues" it says "this section does not have any references". Surely this isn't talking about the lede? Does anyone know what that is about? Other side question: what does Rater base its ratings on? I don't see how the article is low-importance in the France or Economics topic area.Elinruby (talk) 18:28, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Exactly my reaction to "patriotism", that may be the underlying motivator, but, patriotism-pro-black-market? patriotism-anti-black-market? From that term, it's not clear. Mathglot (talk) 18:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Elinruby: you don't need a resource request, it's freely available. Scope creep linked it somewhere, and I had also accessed it as well. Also, the French article (and now, ours) relies heavily on a trio of sources, which is fine on the one hand, because they are the ones who wrote extensively about the topic, but don't underestimate other resources that are freely available, such as Lloyd-2003, already in § Works cited, and fully available on line via TWL/Springer Link, which you automatically have access to. And I just added Taylor-1997, "The Black Market in Occupied Northern France, 1940-4" to § Further reading, also full-text available via TWL/JSTOR. Mathglot (talk)

Ah? I will look again. Right now I am trying for additional references, but there was a what tag somewhere that made me want to look at Grenard 2008. Note to self. Elinruby (talk) 20:45, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I found the unreferenced section tag and took care of it since the very short section did have a reference, presumably new. I will see if I can add another one. Also, to answer myself, I figured out what is up with Rater and it turns out that I accepted the defaults and obviously should not have. This article is soooo not start-class, lol. I will get to this tonight probably. Elinruby (talk) 00:53, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Summary belongs in the article lead. If I've identified one issue with the layout it's that the headings are obscure or not-idiomatic English. If the black market goes through three identifiable (in the sources) phases then they need to have clear headings - eg by date (but avoiding terms like "fall" which means different things if in north or south hemisphere) or idiomatic English which "robust" does not in my mind meet. GraemeLeggett (talk) 09:29, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

It seems almost match the current main section section headings. I'll take out that fall term and put a qualifier in, in the actual section. scope_creep^Talk 16:15, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

There are often better ways to phrase something, but I truly don't know in what version of English "robust" is not a completely normal sort of word. But change it, if there's something better. Mathglot (talk) 21:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

art black market

The article is so huge I hesitate to bring this up again, but we aren't currently covering this. Calling this a mañana problem, but what do people think of this for RS? It's a blog, but it's the London School of Economics, and the author looks like an expert, for at least some definitions of the term: The French art market under the Nazi boot: looking for discreet assets Elinruby (talk) 21:48, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

The Palace of Versaillesduring the Second World War, Palace of Versailles — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elinruby (talk • contribs) 23:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Might be related to Nazi plunder, which is half the size of this one, and could more easily accommodate some of the content, if you think it fits over there, and then just have a summary here pointing to it. Mathglot (talk) 03:57, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

yeah someone pointed that out to me with reference to all the art. I think I already looked at the existing article and didn't faint so TL;DR yes, just a mention here I think, maybe around wherever it is that the article talks about Henri Lafont and the Countesses. Not working on that this instant, but since I am waist-deep in Persee, noting some goo-looking stumbleupons for reference. You can move this section under sources if you like; that was a pretty good idea. Elinruby (talk) 04:36, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

English variety

Do we want to specify an English variety? I think we should, because right now, it's neither fish nor fowl, with about a 3–1 AE to BE ratio of -ized to -ised, 4–1 for center/centre, but 4-1 labour/labor, and 1–1 for colo[u]r. Haven't checked the other "usual suspects" (to steal a phrase from a film about the same era). We should probably pick one, to avoid it ambling aimlessly from one to another, and MOS:TIES doesn't apply. Mathglot (talk) 21:15, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

well if we are going by the original author, it would be Canadian, which means we pretty much don't care. But if we are having trouble with edits about this, per the above, I don't care, and will go with whatever consensus. I usually write colour but center, which according to the page on Canadian English I was looking at the other day, is not as weird as I thought it was. I will quote Scope creep and say that I am not fussed about the Engvar Elinruby (talk) 21:34, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not fussed. I would expect it to be mixed as you see in the big articles. It might change if its submitted for peer review and GA, if we go down that route, may force a particular format. scope_creep^Talk 21:42, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Might as well set it to Canadian then, because I would like to do that. If I am reading the policy right, since it's about France, the topic is not a criterion, and the deciding factor is the "first non-stub version", shrug, which would be the original article I published. I don't care about this really but if I am going to *have* to follow an engvar, it might as well a) follow policy and b} be my own. But since that's basically saying we don't care, it can wait until that time comes. We should probably standardize on ize vs ise, though, since I am pretty sure I have done both. To my eye they are both correct, but my spell-check on this device, which might think I am still in the United States, likes -ize. I'll go with consensus though; I can probably refrain from getting all nationalistic about this <g> Elinruby (talk) 22:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

so -ise or -ize? I have a mild preference for -ise when translating but the translating is pretty much done... LMK, whatever. Going back into sources now. Please see question below Elinruby (talk) 04:30, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Suits me. scope_creep^Talk 07:50, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Lillian Goldman library

@Elinruby: Ref 11 and 12 damaged as cite is on 2008. I've set the two references to 2008a and 2008b. Can you have a look and point ref 11 and 12 to correct citation. scope_creep^Talk 15:17, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Sure. Elinruby (talk) 15:19, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Importance scale

In economics this article is a really good case study about the interaction of top level topics (supply, demand and price for a start, inflation, production, GDP, exports etc) So it would either be a high-importance topic like them or mid- because it is an instance of them. In the France topic area, WW2 similarly is no doubt a top topic, and the black market would be of high immportance as an instance of what happened in World War II. Opinions? How an I doing? Elinruby (talk) 04:30, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Hearing no objections. Should I go ahead and do this? Elinruby (talk) 04:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Empty space

@GraemeLeggett: You can't have a emply block, i.e. big space in the middle of the article. That clear template should never be used. What exactly is the problem with the image running into each other? Do they need moved somehow or reorganised? scope_creep^Talk 13:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@GraemeLeggett: What is up with that section that clear template on it. If I don't get a reply I going to remove it. The GA folk will not accept it. Do you think image need sort. I will have go at moving the diagram images into a multiple image block and see what you think. scope_creep^Talk

I've looked at these diagrams and images and spread all over the place, so I plan to reorganise them so they are closer to the section they are mentioned in. scope_creep^Talk 07:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Feedback requested at Nav template

Your feedback would be appreciated at Template talk:Vichy France#Society, regarding adding this article to the nav template on Vichy France. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 08:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

United States Office of Chief of Counsel for the Prosecution of Axis Criminality 1946, pp. 1577–1580.

Does anybody know what volume this is for this citation? I've found the complete source texts on the Internet Archive at [3] There seems to be multiple volumes. Is the volume number available and I can expand to full citation with url. scope_creep^Talk 21:12, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I can look into this a bit later tonight, but if that's the reference titled "Nuremberg Proceedings" I am pretty sure the volume number is 5. I thought I expanded that to volume= in the citation. In any event, as I understand it, that law school is hosting a repository of Nuremberg documents, mostly trial transcripts. The citation for the economic statistics is testimony from a German trade representative; I am not certain if it's courtroom testimony or a deposition. The other one is a summing up for a particular defendant by the French prosecutor. HTH but I thought I left this where both links were each going to the correct page? If you tell me what information is missing I can probably find it more easily, since the documents are large and I've now been through them several times. LMK, I will be afk now but only for an hour or two.

Btw the significance of that trade representative's testimony is that Germany used the figure of three million German soldiers to calculate "occupation costs" whereas another source says that there were about 40,000 German solders in France. In other words, France wasn't just subsidizing its own occupation but also German military operations elsewhere, and knew this, but did not object. (That last part isn't in the article yet but seems worth a word or two, probably where we talk about not wanting to devalue the franc, because that is why they said nothing. Elinruby (talk) 04:00, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Morning @Elinruby: I'll take a look and see if referenced in volume 5 as well and if so expand it. A typical conquered client state, paying the conquerer to occupy them. scope_creep^Talk 08:22, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Let me kn00ow if there's a question. I am around, sort of, hadn't gone there yet. It there is some better way to cite this than treating Yale as an author LMK also. Elinruby (talk) 09:48, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Sounds like a case of WP:Primary source, there must be a better one. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:23, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Don't know. Not managed to look at it yet. scope_creep^Talk 13:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Of course they are primary sources; they are transcripts. Noting wrong with having a couple of those though is there? It's not like we are relying on nothing but primary sources for the actual topic. The added Nuremberg text is either macroeconomic detail or as I recall cited text about how the "occupation costs" were calculated. It clarifies the attribution of the economic conditions and is not being used to demonstrate that the Catholic Church changed its position on buying and selling in the black market.

But did the referencing question get resolved? One thing I noticed is that we have some of the Nuremberg citations with the Yale law lirary as author {they curate the collection was the reasonng there) and others to an international agency, which is closer to the truth since I think they held the proceedngs and produced the transcripts. I got their name from the letterhead. But the ones attributed to the law lirary did not have this letterhead. I guess I will see if I can find an overall index. If you are trying to find these transcripts in a different repository,, Scope creep, would the date of the proceedings be helpful?

Yip got it resolved. Took a bit of time finding it. Ref 15 The Internet Archive has the whole series. The guy is quite famous as a diplomat and was involved in the ministery for requisition or something like. He was the guy that established the initial conditions for requisitions in the meetings with Petain right after the occupation. He needs an article on his own. I never realised there was so many Germans interviewed. It is a deep historical archive, those books alone. There is 1000's upon 1000's of them. It something I never knew about. I knew about the Nuremberg trials but figured it was small group of a few hundreds. It is primary though. There are several secondary references I came across, so I can add a second ref to that sentence to day at some point. scope_creep^Talk 06:44, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I would agree that it is a primary source, but reliable and authoritative. There may be discussion of it in that Grenard 2011 source I found; I am still looking at it and may re-use in but one of my goals is also to reduce the article's reliance on Fabrice Grenard, even though he is clearly an authority on the topic, just because there must be other work as well. To answer one of my own questions above, the law library copyrighted the collection I quoted from, which from what I have been taught elsewhere than wikipedia would make them a corporate author. If you replaced my cite with another one to the same text in a more complete set of documents, which I think is what you are saying, then at is imo a good thing. I do have some other documents pulled up from Nuremberg that I may use at some point but they are sort of off-topic for this article so I am trying to keep the background section minimalist. Occupation costs were a factor in the economic distress that led to the black market, but were not themselves "black market", do you agree? One problem I am having however is that I keep seeing different numbers for the total amount of "occupation costs", but I think this is caused by different time frames. Another is "occupation costs" versus "costs of the occupation", but I am going to start a separate section for this and other terminology difficulties. Elinruby (talk) 02:20, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

BOF (Beurre, œuf, fromage)

I plan to create and article on this. There is two red links and the fr article is badly sourced. I found four source that describe it in some detail. scope_creep^Talk 18:43, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

good idea. Elinruby (talk) 19:19, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

If it worth referencing this in the BOF article? [4] scope_creep^Talk 21:06, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

why not? Unless you have something more elegantly academic to hand. It's definitely a gold-star RS for a definition. Elinruby (talk) 21:27, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I just added a reference for it btw Elinruby (talk) 03:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Grenard 2011

I am not seeing another one of these? Just making sure. I am referencing/expanding the post-war period from his contribution to an anthology on the topic. Leaving in ref tags for now. Elinruby (talk) 06:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC) converted to Grenard 2011 Harvard reference without incident. Elinruby (talk) 06:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Translator note: paysan

Dictionaries say this translates as "peasant", which is more or less true in a historical context but at least to my West-Coast ear, the English word has an overtone of class and feudalism that isn't present as it is used here in the French version. A better translation might be "countryman", a word I associate with rural England, but this might be read as 'citizen of the same country". I myself used "farmer" or "people who live in the country". I haven't taken specific note of what Scope creep has done, but I have read his translation and didn't see "peasant" anywhere, so apparently he saw the same problem and avoided it also. This is just a note to any readers who may wonder why the translation differs from the Google Translate. Elinruby (talk) 06:03, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I've glad your checking it. scope_creep^Talk 08:53, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

The quality of your translations is quite good, I told you that before. I made a few copy edits here but it would easily have been fine without them. Survey question: is peasant a word you would use in anything but a derogatory sense? I ask because it's been quite a while since I was in Scotland. Anyways, yeah, one of my famous over-thinking translator notes. I think the original is a bit disorganized, but I haven't really tried to tackle that yet. I did delete some uncited French mouth noises, from the section I worked on, I think. I usually do a translation first then copy-editing and whatever. Usually they need references for example. Trying to write the background section atm Elinruby (talk) 11:06, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

No, I don't think it is derogatory. Peasants were class of folks who lived in some of the most basic conditions known to exist. They were the predominate group at one time. There is an mountain of academic research on them. There is still a peasant class today, the last group that exists in eastern Europe and Romania, the last group remaining in Europe. I tend to translate using deepl, then copyedit, link and read for grammer, and copyedit for flow. It takes a lot of time. My French isn't anywhere as good as my German even though I had to get help recently with translations, so it shows you the level of it. scope_creep^Talk 11:40, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Well. I am fairly confident that most of my DNA comes from peasant stock, so I myself would never use the word this way, but when I see the word it"s usually in a sentence like "She thinks she is better than we peasants." Maybe it is just too long in the United States. Big part of our readership though.

I don't use automatic translation for French, although I do use it to read Polish or Russian or German or Ukrainian etc when needed. But since this process requires mentally juggling word order and alternate meanings and reference code, this makes my translating very sentence-oriented, which is why I mentioned elsewhere that I don't always immediately remember what I translate. This is less true when I am not on a phone as screen-switchng is less confusing; this is an issue because it is now no longer ok to paste French and translate it here, even in userspace, so it

needs to be done in one go. I did take German in college but I have little to no vocabulary anymore, although I remember enough of the grammar to pretty confidently get through text given a dictionary. Elinruby (talk) 20:18, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Followup translator note: I gave up at one point and just started using "peasant", especially where they were talking about a peasants' union. This may need to be standardized; fwiw when I said "grower" or "farmer" or "peasant", all of those are attempts to translate 'peasant". I don't know why it sounds so wrong to me: there is definitely such a thing as a French peasant. To any copy-ediyor that this may concern. Elinruby (talk) 07:39, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Seems you could have stuck with paysan and just link to French peasants. GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:53, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

thats an idea. Willing to do that. Let's see if anyone else wants to comment on this. Elinruby (talk) 16:31, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

notes on some terminology issues

There are likely official translations to English for the following terms, and if one is noted I would appreciate hearing about it. Sometimes the official translation (by the EU or the UN for example) is different than a simple translation of the words in the French name. Some of these names may need a glossary; we should run this question past some more people who do not speak French.

• bicycle tours: city-dwellers traveling to villages to buy food
• fraud. illegalities: always means the black market in this article
• occupation costs: The armistice provided for a French payment to Germany supposedly to reimbuse it for the costs of administering the territory. Does not include other costs of being occupied by Germany such as the loss of human capital to concentration camps or destruction of infrastructure by one or another of the various belligerents

• tax, taxed, taxes; these all seem to refer to price controls and I don't know that this is clear

• peasant, farmer, grower, country people: I am uncomfotable with the word "peasant" because it sounds feudal to me, but I have to admit that there was such a thing as a French peasant at the time and there probably still is. I have translated it in varying ways across the article and this may need to be remedied, but the original term was "paysan" throughout. I tried leaving it as a foreign language term and it got a what tag, so apparently it may not be in the vocabulary of a random english speaker. My own feeling about this at the moment is that for the sake of consistency I should probably change all these instances to "peasant".

I changed most instances of these words to "peasant", with the exception of a few terms likes "smaller producer". To my eye the word still seems wrong, but my concern over the original way I did it was that the reader might be trying to understand the distinction between a farmer, a grower and a producer when in fact there is none and the translated text pretty much universally says "paysan". I think I said somewhere above that I don't think the words match exactly, with paysan meaning something closer to a man of the soil or of the land, whereas when I hear "peasant" my mind goes straight to the Ancien Regime. Possibly this is cultural though, and I invite comment. I am not sure what is the best thing to do here. Elinruby (talk) 06:10, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

• control: The French word can also mean an inspection and the verb can mean to check; this is a potential false friend. It is also used for inspectorate in the name of a Vichy agency.
• ravitaillement:' literally resupply, but supply sounds better to me. However as the name of an agency this is still fairly opaque. Apparently the "service de ravitaillement" was the agency that collected produce, dairy products or other goods that were to be distributed to official outlets. This is an example of an instance where there may an official name which is not "resupply service", almost certainly I would say. It general, we may be best off leaving the names of Vichy agencies in French, as most of them do not have articles in either English or French and I am not volunteering to write one. Elinruby (talk) 06:30, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
• tonne: give we are talking about France, this is almost certainly the metric ton, as opposed to the short ton or the imperial ton or whatever. I asked about this earlier and did not get an answer; maybe everyone else is as confused as I was about this. According to Tonne if "metric" is not specified Americans will almost certainly misunderstand this to mean a short ton, not that it actually matters much since the term only appears in the article in terms of comparing agricultural production with that of a prior year. Call it a translator scruple. Since this seems pretty unambiguous I am going to go ahead and make this change.

Feel free to opine and/or add any other terms that may be confusing. Elinruby (talk) 03:50, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not keen on peasant either. scope_creep^Talk 06:08, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

OK. Definitely not arguing with that. Farmer? Producer? I guess as you edit change any that you think can be better expressed in context? Elinruby (talk) 06:13, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Farmer I guess. Peasant for me means something from the 17th century or maybe 18th in France not the 1940's. Biycle tours need to change. I never spotted that. It could be "city-dwellers cycling to villages to buy food". Tax and so on. That could be difficult. Context is important. Price controls. Case by case probably. We could put a small glossary in. I asked at the help desk about glossories in articles years ago and they said it was perfectly valid. Control I don't know. scope_creep^Talk 06:26, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

ok. Since this is a matter of my translator doubts and I am on a device that will do a find-replace, I don't mind going back through and changing the instances of "peasant" to "farmer". I think I switched to "producer" at one point where they were talking about cattle; as I warned in the beginning, the first-pass translation was fast and dirty. But actually a farmer could have cattle. I think maybe "producer" where we are not talking about food and "farmer" where we are? I will let that sit a little in case other people want to comment. I am sure about controle (this machine does not do accents; the o should have an accent circonflexe}; that was the agency that was stopping people on trains and asking them to open their suitcases. I can do a glossary but where should I put it? Oh and I will go fix bicycle tours, but if I miss any instances that is what it is saying...Elinruby (talk) 06:39, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Yea, we will need to a bit of the rest on a case by case basis. Regarding the Metric Tonne, we can put a convert template on so can be converted to a imperial ton is the most common I think. I'll take a look at some conversions it can do. scope_creep^Talk 07:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

GraemeLeggett says the tonnes conversion can be crossed off as its already valid, so cross that off. scope_creep^Talk 09:31, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand "it's already valid". I globally changed "tonne" to "metric ton" because there's an American ton, a British ton and a French metric ton and they are each different. The latter is what we are talking about. This is, again, not all that important, as the term always appears in a comparison of production between years, but they would be talking about the metric ton. Convert would just change the numbers as appropriate for user settings, right? That's fine. I'm just trying to get the original quantity correct. There is a reference to a "ton" in one of the Nuremberg documents, but I am not going to guess what was meant there, although I suspect the American ton. It's still just a discussion of scale though. Anyway, TL;DR convert sounds like a fine idea but it needs to know what it is converting, I am sure. Elinruby (talk) 09:50, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

tax, taxation. Looked this up and it definitely means price controls. French for tax is "impôt" --this is the danger of cognates. Elinruby (talk) 16:34, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

• 'tonne' is metric ton. It's spelt tonne so it isn't confused with either Long or Short Tons. The Long Ton is pretty much the same weight - so for non-exact values could just convert to ST - eg 1,000 tonnes (1,100 short tons). If concerned about possibility of confusion, then link at first instance. GraemeLeggett (talk) 22:09, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I have already changed these to metric ton, but am not against a linked tonne. These numbers are used to compare from one year to the next, and the relationship should hold regardless of the unit, but we should get the number as right as we can. They are bunched together as I recall so yeah linking the first one should be enough. Let me know if you find-replace this or want me to do, but what you say should be good. There is also a place in the article where commodities data is cited to an English-language Nuremberg document that just says "ton" so I left it at that. Don't think we need to go investigate whether the document was written by an American or whether the American even realized there was more than one type of ton/tonne? Unless we really want to, I guess Elinruby (talk) 22:34, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Diagram terminology

I notice the two diagrams legends are in French. I have a Graphics Lab editor who can convert it. I can get that kicked off today. I'll post any notices here If I cant translate the FR properly. scope_creep^Talk 07:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

The pie chart is done, I just haven't uploaded it Elinruby (talk) 09:51, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

hmm now I look at it the white label on salmon isn't showing up very well. I can change those colors, or if you have already done yours before you see this, go ahead and use yours instead. Elinruby (talk) 10:24, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

The source for the data should be included in the image. And if you have that then perhaps use Wikipedia's own tools to create the image at template:Pie_chart GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Mathglot suggested that but I had already done this. Given the issue with the white text I noticed above, it can be redone, or I can redo it with the template. Or we can use Scope creep's. Not fussed. Doing something else right now though. Elinruby (talk) 11:10, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I've already got my guy lined up. I'll ask him to change the colours to not reflect on the white. scope_creep^Talk 14:08, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I didn't quite understand "not reflect on the white" but I don't need to ;) I was trying to avoid unnecessary duplication of work, but if I couldn't read my own label once it hit the web, the graph no doubt fails accessibility and therefore this isn't unnecessary. TL;DR whatever is easiest. Elinruby (talk) 20:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

PS - I found a table that shows spikes in criminal cases relating to food (poaching, thefts of chickens and rabbits etc) over several years. I spent some time messing with it last night and came to the conclusion that I need to review styles, and also that the very offbeat configuration I am running might be the problem, since several sites won't let me sign in...beyond that though, it's set up with the years as the x-axis, which means it is almost certainly not going to play nice on mobile. I like it though, because it compares January 1939 to January 1940 to January 1941....1946, but I think the format needs rethinking for the web. Interested in taking a look? I would say it isn't strictly necessary for establishing hunger, given the material I added last night about people's cats disappearing, but I found it interesting fwiw. I would not have thought of poaching. LMK and I will send you the specifics if you are interested. Elinruby (talk) 21:22, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Note that if you request that a labeled diagram be created as an svg, then anyone can translate the captions without skills in imaging. See for example the history at c:File:Judiciary of France.svg; I don't know anything about tweaking that digram; all those edits are just me changing the captions from French to English in the English version. (The edit summaries in the history say "Mathglot uploaded...", but really, I didn't; I just filled in English captions in the label translation tool, and the tool uploads it when I'm done.) The svg diagram is separate from the captions, so you can also create labeled diagrams with labels in any language you feel comfortable with, without having to upload anything or create a new file in Commons. See SVG translate tool on Toolforge. Mathglot (talk) 00:51, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

+pings: @Elinruby and Scope creep:. Mathglot (talk) 00:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Thoughts

• I agree with the global replace of "farmer" as the translation for "paysan". Because of the class overtones it's less wrong than "peasant". I saw an edit summary about "agrarian" and that may well be better in some cases. Or even peasant. I think I let stand "peasant resentment" or something of the kind because farmer doesn't work as an adjective. I think we're dealing with the somewhat untranslatable here so let me explain it one more time, and thank you every one for working through this. If you look the translation up for "paysan" you will definitely be told peasant, and that would be just fine for the French Revolution. It's a bit shocking for 1942, yet correct. But someone just introduced me to the principle of least astonishment, and here is my chance to use it in a sentence. These were in fact subsistence farmers of many generations' standing, not necessarily impoverished in better times, and not the fertilizer-and-red-tractor industrial enterprises that North Americans are going to imagine. "Growers" makes me think of wine, and in some cases this would be true. Hérault, which I was writing about last night, was apparently hard hit by rationing and food shortages because it mainly produced wine. And yet the article also discusses cattle and veal, bla bla... as the default "farmer" is the closest we are going to get to country-man, I think, but don't be shy about editing it if you have a better idea in a given context. Ok, done with that.
• Housewives' demonstrations are currently in the 1940-1942 section but in fact seem to have been widespread and continued right up to 1948 or 1949. I made an effort to determine if there are other sections that need to be separated from the timeline structure we have going, but got distracted by a couple of shiny objects. Does anyone have any nominations and I guess there should be a separate section? Background section seems like the wrong place. Maybe something about the Communist party, since they were involved in these? There also seems to be a whole lot of stuff about the history of agricultural coops that I would prefer not to decipher as we are already way into War and Peace territory.
• I keep meaning to add Le Juif et la France to the Anti-Semitism section. Speaking of trends that continued for the entire period.
• Also, was just reminded of the extraction lines; saw last night a mention of a woman who hid and kept safe a pilot who had had to parachute out for *four years*
• I also saw some discussion of all of the able-bodied men being conscripted; maybe we should have a labor section.
• We need to discuss a split of this ginormous article.
• The German black market, the bureaux d'achat and the industrial black market are given much less coverage than they deserve.
• I have the beginnings of a glossary. Not ready to show it yet. Trying to work through explaining the various enforcement efforts in section 2, and the post-war measures, all by differently-named agencies as far as I can tell.
• Grenard 2008: If someone has a link to the full book, not the shorter adapted version whose page numbers don't match, please do instruct me on where to find it, since maybe this makes me an idiot but I really cannot find it anywhere, and most of the remaining what and cn tags are going to require it to be resolved. Alternately, at least some of these are bad quotes that don't render very well in English, and perhaps we can replace them with something that isn't Grenard, whom we rely on overmuch anyway. I did that in a couple of places last night.

I think that is enough for now. Comment is invited on any or all of the above. I probably won't be back in here until much later tonight at the earliest, RL is calling. Elinruby (talk) 21:22, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Regarding peasant or farmer: I looked into this, and found the former having connotations of miserable, poor serfs in the Middle Ages in English, where that's not at all the case in French. Or of subsistence farming in later years by laborers who don't own the land they are working. Going through it with a finer comb than the broad brush I used, will no doubt come up with individual cases where peasant might be preferred, and I certainly have no objection to that. Meanwhile, Graeme fixed a couple of cases where farmer was being used as a modifier, to use agrarian instead, iirc, and I altered one of those back to farm where it worked as an adjective (farm worker, or I don't remember exactly), and left the other(s). I did look into it first, and wasn't just slashing and burning; here are some links to consider. The first two don't help with the English, but give some insight into the French nuances, before we even get to the point of where we think about translating it:

• "Paysan", "Agriculteur" et "Exploitant agricole"]
• Paysan, agriculteur, exploitant : quelle différence ?
• Peasants and their role in rural life

For me the term in English has overtones of feudalism, right on up through the people who overthrew the Ancien regime in 1789, and feels odd to call the smallhold workers tilling the land in the 1940s by the same term. Maybe I think of the Revolution has having gotten rid of class distinctions (of course, that's a long, gradual, and complex story), and it's somehow untoward to say "peasant". In French, it doesn't have the same feeling at all for me, because the word pays is right in there, so it sort of feels like, "land-guy" to me (or "country-man", with hyphen, as you had it), not so feudal, not so medieval, and perfectly okay for a farmer, or for that matter, someone living in the campagne and not actually farming anything more than his own garden.

Finally, here's a really interesting article about the evolution of French agriculture from 1940-1954:

• L'évolution de l'agriculture française depuis 1940

which makes me wonder if there isn't an opportunity for an article about Farming during the Vichy regime, and if so, we would have another target to which some material in this article could be moved and summarized. But like I say, no objection if you think peasant belongs in some of those slots.

As to bullets 3, 4, and 5, I think they are pertinent to the Vichy article, but I don't see the relevance here; can you enlighten? (Also, fix broken ping to previous message portion: GraemeLeggett.) Mathglot (talk) 00:27, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Consider them just brainstorming ideas, but coming from someone trying to digest a deep dive in the online holdings of the BNF and Persée. But yes, I see that some logic links have been skipped.

1. 3) At one point Vichy (1941?) was actively producing propaganda saying that Jews were causing the shortages/rationing by hoarding. Le Juif it la France is such propaganda, although I don't recall if it mentions the black market, and yes, that should be a criterion.
2. 4) imagine feeding someone for four years in a context were people have resorted to eating cats and your own inadequate rations are all you have. This one doesn't need to be a big honking mini-article; I was thinking a couple of sentences like for the looted art. I am not however certain that I could craft that couple of sentences that do the subject justice though, not right now with secondary sources anyway. Conversely perhaps a few more sentences than that at the existing articles on those subjects about the black market. This is not yet a complete thought.
3. 5) Similarly, if Grandma is trying to run the farm by herself the odds of a successful harvest drop considerably, right?

(PS I think it is cute that I thought I would be done with this in a day or two. Apologies to the people I put on hold.)

Somewhat related: There is some deep stuff I found in the Nuremberg files about those "occupation cost" payments and why Vichy would voluntarily pay the Germans more than they were willing to take. It makes a lot of sense but I don't think I can explain it right now, certainly not with secondary RS yet. That's just because I haven't yet looked, mind you; I'm sure it's out there but it's not like I don't have stuff to do already. And maybe Pétain was just senile or John Maynard Keynes was unavailable. I don't know if I made it clear that this effectively meant that France financed what happened in Poland and Ukraine.

I hope you don't think I thought you were doing "slash and burn". I did a find and relace also and I know better than to suspect you of hastiness. K? If anyone wreaked havoc it I was me when I deliberately globally changed everything to peasant, in order to move the discussion forward. But at this point I feel I have done everything but an interpretive dance about this word and consider that I have discharged my duties as an honest translator, asked for help, and gone with consensus. I do like "agriculteur", which I hadn't thought of, but does it have an equivalent other than "farmer"? Going back to King of Nazi Paris.. now, Elinruby (talk) 01:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Also somewhat related - Industrial stuff could probably go to Business collaboration with Nazi Germany (ping Piotrus as original author of the spun-off section). [5]s is not a link to anything specific but may be the mother lode for the black market in industrial raw material and/or macroeconomics). Afraid I'll lose it if I keep it as an open tab Elinruby (talk) 02:12, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Fiction and film

Not by any means the largest section (see table in the header), the "§ Historical memory" section, or portions of it, might be able to be split into an article on Vichy in fiction and film, or some such, with input from other articles as well, as far flung as Robert Paxton#French reaction and debate, Lacombe, Lucien, the nine articles linked at the bottom of Template:Vichy France, and lots more. The scope of such an article would be broader than just the section here, as it would include stuff not related to the black market, but the items covered here could be moved there into a "Black market" subsection, and then summarized here per WP:SS. Mathglot (talk) 23:32, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Agree. Have suggested this before, but hadn't tried to tackle it as yet because I am not really a film person usually, and it's harder to do for "Black market" than "Vichy". If in fact we don't have an article like that for Vichy or the occupation or whatever then we really should. Casablanca for a start. Elinruby (talk) 01:08, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

@Shakescene: it occurred to me that you might be interested in this spinoff. Just a thought; let use know. No rush if you are currently up to your elbows in something else. Elinruby (talk) 13:20, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Bank of France Les statistics clarification, 1944

I couldn't find anything on this 1944 stats clarification. I think it needs a fr speaker. I did find the bank of france archive site, so it must be on there. I've done two other clarification, which is enough for tonight. I'll look at the other one see what it looks like. scope_creep^Talk 19:42, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Moure 2022

I've realized that there are two of these. I also think there may be some confusion with the instances of Grenard 2008 I will look at that, just noting it in case it comes up meanwhile. Elinruby (talk) 02:32, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

préfet of Nord

Regarding the clarification of the cyclists going into Nord and reported by the prefat, I cant find a single thing on apart, from him reporting at an earlier date on the big smuggling gig in April 1941, which may be the start. There is more quotes for cyclists doing the same thing in different regions, so I would suggest replacing that whole quote with something better. scope_creep^Talk 22:53, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I think we have reached the point of trying to improve on the French article rather than translate it. And there is nothing special about Nord except that it was in the zone interdit, but the phenomenon of city dwellers going into the country for supplies was by no means limited to that area; it's just an example that is focused on a particular jurisdiction because that is how the administration and the archives were organized. 02:38, 9 September 2023 (UTC) Elinruby (talk) 02:38, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

uncited quote

From "Suspicions of hoarding": "This point was illustrated in 1941, when the prefect of Bouches-du-Rhône reported that "It is said that, particularly in mountainous regions, meat, poultry, eggs, milk, butter and cheese are found in abundance on the markets"."

No a good example if the quote isn't cited. Will check to make sure it didn't get lost in the translation process but I don't think so. Elinruby (talk) 02:57, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

verification fail? Possibly unnecessary

"Service des Contrôles techniques" or "Service des contrôles techniques" does not appear in [6] Service des Contrôles techniques ("Technical Inspections Service") wrote: "some wholesalers seem to want to speculate by directing or diverting their shipments to regions where the prices seem to them the most advantageous". Elinruby (talk) 08:37, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Tribunal d'État de Paris

Need to mention this further up the article. Its introduced out the blue. scope_creep^Talk 17:20, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

We don't have an article about it, which is interesting since either Mathglot or I has done at least a stub for pretty much all of the jurisdictions of the current judicial system I think, and some of the historical ones (although some of the ones I did early on my need review since I was still pretty confused about some of the terminology).

This must be either a Third Republic or Vichy thing I think. I will try to figure this out and yes, I agree that it does seem to come out of the blue; that is why I was trying to look it up. Elinruby (talk) 02:45, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

@Elinruby: Moure details its formation, i.e. book I sent you. scope_creep^Talk 02:08, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

ooo thanks 03:20, 10 September 2023 (UTC) Elinruby (talk) 03:20, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Service de travail obligatoire

The text in the 1940-1941 section about this is getting in my way in my rework of the discussion of occupation costs. This is a term of art here, specifically referring to formal payments between the governments, regardless of the looting, black market and other economic havoc, and while it's definitely "other economic havoc" and conceivably for a certain definition of occupation costs a cost of the occupation, this is where I make the speech about how something that seems to me like a good translation of a French term is not necessarily the name of the thing in English.

Is there another term in English for what the Germans made the countries they occupied pay, supposedly to reimburse them for the expense of administering the country? The text is true enough, and I don't object to it per se, although I'm not sure whether it has anything to do with the black market. I just need it to not be in that section right now. If someone wants to put it back in, there or someplace else, preferably in a day or two, I have no objection. I'll copy the text here so it doesn't get lost. Elinruby (talk) 19:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Other economic havoc: FRENCH TALLY COST OF NAZI OCCUPATION; Sum Fixed at 98 Billion Dollars --Newly Computed Value of Franc Is 37.7 for $1 Franc's Value Computed Bill Not Submitted Officially Labor Bill Not Calculated, NYT C.l. Sulzberger Aug. 2, 1945 Elinruby (talk) 20:48, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Don't think there's a specific term in English for this. I think you'd just have to describe it, e.g., "payments for occupation costs" (or "expenses"). Mathglot (talk) 16:27, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

If you can't find an equivalent for any terms, best to use specific German or French phrases and then explain their meaning. You should give some explanation even if the term is linked to some other article so the reader can understand without following the link. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Potatoes and pommes de terre

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T337199

The multi-bar chart image found in section § Proportion of production of the article has labels that appear in French. Scope creep initiated a request at commons to have the bar chart labels translated into English (thanks for that!). This resulted in a long, long story that isn't over yet, but in brief, even though an English version of the chart exists, it cannot be viewed from the article due to problems in Mediawiki that are blocking the English version from appearing. These are being tracked in Phabricator, and affect all multilingual svg images whose default language is not English. A look at this from the perspective of a different aspect of the problems associated with multilingual svg's is here. Mathglot (talk) 01:46, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Housewives demonstrations

I'm working on translating this (offline, so far; draft coming soon), but I got sidetracked, because so many of the citations in the bibliography use the French fr:Template:Chapitre template, which our current Module:CS1 translator doesn't translate. So, I jumped in, and am trying to make my first addition to a module, with Lua, and everything. We'll see how that comes out. (Curious? See here). In the meantime, for all of your "Lien web" (cite web), "Article" (cite journal), and "Ouvrage" (cite book) templates, you guys are already usin the translator module to create your English citation temmplates, right? Soon, I hope we can use it also for the French "Chapitre" tempaltes. @Elinruby, Scope creep, and Piotrus: Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 11:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mathglot: No, never used the translator module? scope_creep^Talk 17:28, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Me either. I've been manually changing titre to title and auteur to author and so on. And deleting "pages totales" since apparently they don't have the same rule about using either page or pages but not both. I looked at the documentation but what is "argument" in this context, and what exactly do you do, put the template at the top of the page? Apply it to each reference? I have to say, I would like to use it, because I am really tired of removing that period that French puts after a reference. Elinruby (talk) 18:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

When few days ago I tried to translate my article from Polish to English, the translator module told me it does not support any work on English Wikipedia...? I gave up on it long ago as useless (great idea, I mean, but apparently killed by the community for some <redacted> reasons). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:48, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Piotrus, I believe that you may have misunderstood. We are talking here about Module:CS1 translator, which supports the translation of dozens of Wikipedia citation templates from foreign Wikipedias into English. For example, it can translate {{cytuj stronę}}s (Polish cite web templates) into English; I tried it just now, using some references from this article, and have verified that it is still working fine. This subject has come up here, because an enormous amount of time on the Black market article is spent dealing with the references; but that's also the case when translating any article. So, next time you are translating a Polish article, instead of having to laboriously construct {{cite book}}, {{cite journal}}, or {{cite web}} templates in English from bits and pieces of the Polish templates, you can just put them through the translator, and get fully formed Engish citations. Hope this helps, Mathglot (talk) 06:35, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mathglot I see. How can one use this module? I'd like to know how to quickly transfer references between different languages Wikipedia. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Piotrus, scroll up about one inch, for starters. Mathglot (talk) 07:06, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't see what you mean? I clicked through to the page, it has documentation and code, but nothing about how to use it. Perhaps this is some secret code-monkey only level of information, but for me there is nothing useful. Is there a gadget I can install to use this somehow? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:47, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I think you may be asking the same question I did, as in I see the syntax but where specifically do you put it, and what is the definition of argument in this context, the reference code??

Look at what M wrote under "Translator module". I think the gist of it is that you can just paste the code in, and a bit will fix it, assuming that the language and citation type are supported. If I am wrong please correct me, Mathglot. Elinruby (talk) 07:56, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Translator module

@Elinruby, Scope creep, and Piotrus: You don't have to do that; sorry I didn't mention it earlier. (I've also been doing it the long, tedious way until I discovered the translator module.) For French, currently it works for {{Ouvrage}}, {{Article}}, and {{Lien web}}, converting them into {{Cite book}}, {{Cite journal}}, and {{Cite web}}. (It also works with citations in about a dozen other languages.) I'm in the middle of adding support for converting the French {{Chapitre}} citation template, and it's 95% working, and usable now in beta version.

The way you use the citation translator module, is you just paste the French citations directly into your bibliography (or sandbox, or wherever). Just past them into your article (as long as it's one of the three listed above), and that's it; they'll get automatically translated—although there might be a delay of a few hours until AnomieBOT substs them. If you don't want to wait, add subst: after the opening double curly brace ({{), and it will be translated immediately when you click 'Publish'.

Here's a demo. Here are two copies of the first {{Ouvrage}} citation copied directly from the bibliography at Manifestations de ménagères: modified to add subst: at the beginning; the first one is enclosed in 'code/nowiki' tags, so you can see it, and so it won't get translated. The second copy is identical to the first, except lacks the tags, so when I click 'Publish', it should get converted immediately. You can expect to see one red error, 'Unknown parameter |pages totales= ignored' (which is already fixed in the sandbox; not shown here; if you use Trappist's HarvErrors script, you will see a brown missing citation warning which you can ignore):

• {{subst:Ouvrage|auteur1=[[Danielle Tartakowsky]]|titre=Les manifestations de rue en France 1918-1968|lieu=Paris|éditeur=Publications de la Sorbonne|collection=Histoire de la France au XIXe et au XXe siècle|numéro dans collection=42|date=1997|pages totales=869|isbn=2-85944-307-X|lire en ligne=https://books.openedition.org/psorbonne/62302?lang=fr}}
• Danielle Tartakowsky (1997). Les manifestations de rue en France 1918-1968. Histoire de la France au XIXe et au XXe siècle. Paris: Publications de la Sorbonne. ISBN 2-85944-307-X. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |pages totales= ignored (help)

To see the translated result, edit this section and look at the two citations at the bullets: the top one in nowiki-tags remains unchanged and is still in French, but the bottom one should be in English, and have a hidden auto-translate comment appended by the Module. To prove to yourself that this really worked and I didn't just fake it, just copy the top one into your sandbox or Talk page, hit Publish, and then go look at it again in Preview mode after you publish it.

As for how this works: look at th code of en-wiki Template:Ouvrage, and notice that it is a redirect to Template:Cite book/French; look in turn at the code of {{Cite book/French}} and notice that it invokes Module:CS1 translator, and that's why pasting a French 'Ouvrage' template causes the translation module to be invoked without you having to do anything. Subst-ing it makes the translation appear in the wikicode permanently; until then, you'll see the citation rendered, and after the subst-ing (whether by you, or by AnomieBOT), you'll see it in the wikicode.

The sandbox version in development is more powerful, will fix the red error, and can also translate {{Chapitre}} where the live translator won't. To use the sandbox version for {{Ouvrage}}, copy/paste the French Ouvrage citation and change {{Ouvrage |... to {{subst:Cite book/French/sandbox |..., and hit Publish. To use the sandbox version for the new feature that will translate {{Chapitre}} from French articles, copy/paste the French Chapitre citation and change {{Chapitre|... to {{subst:Cite chapter/French/sandbox |... and hit Publish. Possible downside of the sandbox, is I'm still making changes to it, and it might break at any moment, but there's no risk to you, as 'broken' means it will maybe generate a citation with red errors on the page, and depending how close or how bad it is, you can either just fix it up by hand, or undo if it's really broken; but the live one generates red errors, too; so the sandbox may be just as good, or better, and is the only one that can translate a French {{Chapitre}} template currently.

When using the translator module to translate citations, you don't have to do them one-by-one; you can just copy the entire ==Bibliographie== from some French article and paste it into your article, publish, and wait for AnomieBOT; or copy it in, and stick all the subst: tokens in there and publish, and it will convert the whole bibliography immediately. (The reason just waiting works, is that these are defined as subst-only templates, and if you paste them without subst-ing, AnomieBOT will find them within an hour or two, stick the subst tokens in there, and publish; and the translation into English citations will happen immediately upon publication by AnomieBOT.)

If I wasn't clear, or this doesn't work for you testing on your Talk page or sandbox, could you please ping me from wherever you ran the test that didn't work. For general questions or comments about the translator module, please raise a discussion at Template talk:Cite chapter/French (which redirects to Help talk:Citation Style 1) or just go straight to the Help page and ping me. (edit conflict) That page is a collective talk page for a lot of project pages, so be sure to say something about 'citation translator' in your section header to provide context. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

If you want to see a live demo, I used it to translate the bibliography from at Draft:Housewives demonstrations. I used the sandbox because there were a lot of {{Chapitre}} templates in the original, which the live module doesn't handle yet; this means I had to do the replacement of {{Chapitre}} ⟶ {{subst:Cite chapter/French/sandbox. I also did one pre-translation step to handle Titre chapitre, and three post-translation steps, to split out first and last names (the original just had |auteur=First Last), to deal with multiple editors in one param, and to add white space between params. The actual translation step was rev. of 00:01, 25 August 2023 (diff), and all it did was remove a couple of <pre> tags, but that allowed the CS1 translator module to be invoked, resulting in the translation of the eight citations from fr:Manifestations de ménagères into the § Works cited section in the Draft. Mathglot (talk) 00:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mathglot To keep it simple, do you mean that if I copy the citation code from pl wiki, using pl template (which will be broken on English), within few hours a bot will fix it, if it has the right template interwiki? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus:, in theory, yes. In practice, also yes, if it's with the French templates, because I've used them and confirmed they work (and I'm developing the new case for {{Chapitre}}). I never tried it with Polish templates, with one exception, namely the {{cytuj stronę}} from the pl:Kalifornia article yesterday to illustrate my previous message, and that one case worked, so I'm optimistic they all will.

Please keep in mind, that none of the foreign templates line up perfectly with ours, so you can expect to see some red error messages. Attempts to translate French templates almost always spit out "Unknown parameter |pages totales= ignored" because most French editors use that param, and we don't have it. So, you pretty much always have to do some post-translation clean-up; that is normal. But, there may also be the legitimate bug: something isn't translated that should be, or ends up in the wrong field, or whatever, so please be on the lookout for that, especially as the Polish templates probably don't have a lot of people using them.

In fact, it could very well be that you will be the first person to try them extensively from Polish, so it would be very helpful if you kept a tickler list of things that seem off, or are missing, or whatever, bunch them up, and then raise a discussion at Help talk:Citation Style 1 with your suggestions for improvement. Please keep in mind that that Talk page is a collective Talk page with redirects from many dozens of templates, and they are all dealt with mostly by one editor (Trappist the monk), so please use a clear section header; starting off with 'CS1 translator Polish refs...' would be a good start to provide context.

Also, while trying it out, you may find the 1-2 hour turnaround time waiting for AnomieBOT to be annoying; did you follow the part about how to make it happen immediately?

One last thing (and this is a bit technical, so you can skip this part): you said, "which will be broken on English", but actually, it shouldn't appear to be broken. Because we actually *do* have the Polish templates in English (try it: click {{cytuj stronę}}), it should immediately render a correct-looking citation on the page via the CS1 translator; what I mean is, if you view the page like a visitor (i.e., not the wikicode) and look at the Bibliography (assuming it's in that section), then you'll see what looks like a plain text citation in an academic journal. So, as far as the page-visitor is concerned, you're done. But as far as WP:Verifiability is concerned, you're not done, because in order for the Wikimedia software to "see" that reference, and connect up sfn's with full citations, it has to be in a format it recognizes, such as |last=Jones and |year=2004, but the Polish template won't look like that, and the software won't connect it up properly. Also, the Polish template remains opaque and essentially uneditable with fields in there like |nazwisko=Conrad and |rok=1899, so that's another reason to translate them. Mathglot (talk) 03:24, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll give it a try. Pl wiki I think uses just pl:Szablon:Cytuj which interwikis to Template:Citation. I've added a test to my sandbox, will see what happens. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:39, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Did your sandbox attempt work to your satisfaction? The template you chose, {{Cytuj}} is a redirect to {{Cytuj strone}}, or to be more accurate, they both redirect to {{Cite web/Polish}}, which invoke the translator module.

Stefan Daszyński's bio<ref name=":0">{{Cytuj|tytuł=Daszyński Stefan Witold|data dostępu=2023-08-09|opublikowany=z-ne.pl|url=https://z-ne.pl/t,haslo,866,daszynski_stefan_witold.html}}</ref>.

You said,

Pl wiki I think uses just pl:Szablon:Cytuj which interwikis to Template:Citation.

Interwiki doesn't enter into it, and pl-wiki also uses (at least) two others. The only thing that matters, is whether {{Cytuj}} exists on en-wiki, and it does, redirecting to the translator. So, template {{cytuj stronę}} (and the redirect you used) are supported by the translator, as you can see at Module:CS1 translator#Supported templates; and so are Polish templates {{Cytuj książkę}} and {{Cytuj pismo}} as well. Hope this is clear. Did you have any questions about your test, or afterward? Mathglot (talk) 00:15, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for checking. I'll need to test it more when I have time, but something clearly works :) If I have more questions I'll get back to you! _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:20, 13 September 2023 (UTC)