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Genetic distances derived from 120 allele frequencies in Cavalli-Sforza's "The History and Geography of Human Genes".

Can anyone explain what "DNA of the world's populations cluster" means? --JWSchmidt 19:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe what it means is that when projected on a two dimensional plane in some ways, genetics of human beings tend to cluster in groups which are semi-separated from each other. Of course, a lot of processing has to be done before a two dimensional represenation can be done. Because DNA information of each human being is much more complicated than just two numbers. Nevertheless, some prescriptions can result in these clumps or groups in a planar representation. Is that clear?--Filll 19:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Welcome JW, good to hear from you. This article could do with some imput from someone of your stature. Hope you decide to stay for a bit, though there's even more verbiage on the talk page here than we ever got over on Rosalind Franklin!!!! I don't think you are answering JW's question Filll. I think JW is saying that this sentence doesn't make sense. DNA is a molecule, nothing else. Alun 20:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Alun. Filll, I assume you are talking about something like what is shown in the figure (to right). I'd like to see the direct quote from "The History and Geography of Human Genes" (page 82) that discusses "blasians". From the article: "According to DNA of the world's populations cluster by Cavalli-Sforza, Blasians may be as genetically distant from Blacks as Whites." Either this sentence doesn't make sense or I am missing something that was obvious its the author. --JWSchmidt 20:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

This issue has already been debated ad nauseum in the "Statement unjustified by reference" section of the talk page. Timelist 20:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe that this is just a mathematical statement and it is not very clearly written. It is just an attempt to quantitatively describe the data from DNA sequencing.--Filll 20:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe you are correct Fill. If the genetic distance between North East Asians and sub-Saharan Africans is greater than the genetic distance between sub-Saharan Africans and caucasians, then Blasians, who represent the mid-point between sub-Saharan Africans and North East Asians, are about as far removed from sub-Saharan Africans as Caucasians are. This caused a huge controversy a while back because someone thought we were trying to imply that Blasians are caucasian, so the caption got reworded in an awkward way. Timelist 20:39, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, this whole idea started out by citing an article that is highly critical of the claim that is being made (see). Jonathan Marks wrote,

"Time magazine published an article featuring the HGDP and its leading spokesman, geneticist Luca Cavalli-Sforza (Jan 16, 1995:54- 55). Time reported in passing that "All Europeans are thought to be a hybrid population, with 65% Asian and 35% African genes.
For those who care to view scientific statements as texts, there's one for the books. It is not even false; it is simply ridiculous as articulated -- as if Asians and Africans were opposites, homogeneous and pure, and Europeans were less so. It represents classic folk anthropology and pseudo-biohistory."

In controversial cases it is important to cite peer-reviewed sources, and where an idea is controversial, Wikipedia also has to describe the position of critics. --JWSchmidt 00:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Jonathan Marks appears to be misinterpreting what Sforza said. It has nothing to do with the purity of races. The genetic distance is simply a manifestation of the migration map you posted above. Africa was the first and warmest places humans lived in. North East Asia was one of the coldest and most recent areas of migration. That's probably why the 2 geographic regions are at opposite genetic extremes. Timelist 00:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I started trying to get the citation changed, pointing out that we are two "according to" statements away from anything C-S had to say. If Marks wanted to attack C-S he ought to have given a valid quotation/citation. P0M 00:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused. How is this quote an attack on Cavali-Sforza? Sfroza's main contribution to science is his data on genetic distance. So why all the paranoia about Sforza being taken out of context. You have his book. Does he or does he not talk about genetic distance between different populations? I thought that was the whole point of his book. Timelist 00:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Read again: "There's one for the books. It is not even false; it is simply ridiculous as articulated -- as if Asians and Africans were opposites, homogeneous and pure, and Europeans were less so. It represents classic folk anthropology and pseudo-biohistory." Emphasis added. Marks is saying that Cavalli-Sforza is not behaving as a good scientist.P0M 00:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Have you read the "Great Human Diasporas?" Cavali-Sforza explicitly states in that book that Europeans (and caucasinas in general) resemble both Africans and East Asians. He offers a couple theories to explain this, including the fact that caucasians are geographically sandwhiched between Africa and East Asia, and thus got gene flow from both sources. Timelist

Let's have the citation then. That would at least establish something that was definitely said by Cavalli-Sforza. P0M 01:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's what I don't get. Both of you claim to have read Cavali-Sforza's book. Both of you appear to have Sforza's book. Sforza is a credible scientist that both of you appear to respect. Surely you know that he has published a thorough list of genetic distances between the populations he studied. So what's all the controversy about? Timelist 00:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

If something were quoted that Cavalli-Sforza actually said and a citation were provided to that quotation, how could I object? But read the cited text. "Time reported in passing that 'All Europeans are thought to be a hybrid population..." That statement stands only as some magazine reporter's "in passing" take on the gist of what somebody, 'perhaps Cavalli-Sforza, "thinks" things are or may be. P0M 01:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand your skeptiscism. The popular media often gets scientific facts wrong. But I've read parts of "The Great Human Diasporas" where Cavali-Sforza actually makes comments very similar to what Time quotes. I wish I had the book here so I could provide an exact reference. But the article no longer implies that Europeans are hybrids. The primary point is the genetic distance between the 3 broad geographic regions: Africa, Europe, North East Asia. Forget about the strange wording of the quote, and focus on the larger point. Timelist 01:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I did not read Cavali-Soforza's book. I have decided to look into the mathematics that was used to analyze the genetic data for my own purposes and amusement, since this falls in my area of expertise. I do not particularly believe the statements, even those of Cavali or Soforza, since this is a bit too sophisticated to give to social scientists or biologists. I have read the Cavali and Soforza official website at Stanford and looked at some of their papers, and my opinion is the same. However, for the purposes of this article, that is somewhat irrelevant. I would suggest we go to the original sources to get their quotes, and also to some of their colleagues to find their opinions. I think there are a lot of people who dispute how well separated the "clusters" are, which is why most scientists have sort of given up on the notion of "races". On the other hand, the people trying to do this sort of statistical analysis are basically amateurs in this area, so I am not so sure that if someone like myself took a hard look at it we might not come up with better criteria for separating the groups in some high dimensional space. This is a delicate thing and one is required to actually think when analyzing this kind of data.--Filll 00:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm no expert, obviously, but it's my understanding that Cavali-Sforza simply took all the correlations between the genes of his 42 populations, and applied PC analysis. This simply separated the ethnic groups along 2 dimensions. The vertical axis appears to differentiate the ethnicities based on climate, hence you have all the Southern populations in the bottom quadrents (Africans, South East Asians) and the more Northern populations in the top quadrents (North East Asians, Europeans) The horizontal axis appears to roughly differentiate the groups based on how far they migrated from Africa, so you have Africans and caucasians in the right quadrents (because they never left or stayed pretty close to Africa) and Australoids and Eat Asians in the left quadrents (they travelled far from Africa). And so because North East Asians and Africans are at opposite extremes on both dimensions (climate & geographic distance from Africa) they fall in opposite quadrents and can reasonabley be viewed as genetic opposites. Does this mean that race is a valid concept? As POM would say, "it depends how you define race". Keep in mind that Sforza selected very indigenous populations to study, so a lot of the mixed people who seem to embody the absurdity of race were not included in his study. Timelist 00:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I might point out that pure pairwise correlations would produce a projection onto a one dimensional line. SVD was performed instead based on an assumed distance metric and then a couple of the eigenvectors chosen, with the projections along these directions taken as appropriate axes. And probably more as well. If you are in a 1000 or 10,000 dimensional discrete modified Shannon space, finding out clusters in a biologically meaningful way is not so trivial and any method is fairly arbitrary.--Filll 02:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Bottom line, Cavalli-Sforza did not say, "All Europeans are thought to be a hybrid population, with 65% Asian and 35% African genes." Much less did he say that they are a hybrid population..." P0M 00:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Well we have the most reliable source there is (Time magazine) claiming he said it. And the article itself does not depend on that exact quote, but the larger point of genetic distance between North East Asians and Africans exceeding the genetic distance between Africans and caucasians. Sforza most certainly compiled genetic distance data. Timelist 01:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Well what did cavalli-sforza etc say about the clustering then?Any direct quotes? --Filll 01:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Blooming heck, what a lot of confusion. Jonathan Marks is not criticising Cavalli-Sforza. He is criticising Time Magazine for misrepresenting him. Paul B 01:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

See http://personal.uncc.edu/jmarks/hgdp/an.htm You could be right, I suppose. If so, Marks might have made his target a little clearer since he attacks a "public pronouncement," which sounds more like something an authority says to a magazine than something that a magazine reports to its readership. If you are then even Marks doesn't believe that C-S said it or believed it.P0M 03:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

That is why direct quotes are needed and probably from more sources than just Cavalli-Sforza.--Filll 02:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

We already have versions of his genetic distance quadrent chart posted twice on this talk page. They pretty much speak for themselves. If you know of any scientist who disagrees with the concept of genetic distance, a brief mention of that could be added to the capation for balance. Timelist 02:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I have skimmed over the C-S's chapter on the Europeans. In his summary for that chapter he reviews what he has figured out thus-far about the past 40 ky (kilo-years I guess). P. 300:

It is, therefore, reasonable to think that there was an essentially undisturbed expansion of modern humans from somewhere in West Asia all the way to western Europe in the period between 40 and 30 kya, unless some less likely explanations are preferred on other grounds.

Note that he is not given to unqualified statements. Then in the second column of that same page:

::Between 10,000 and 6000 years ago, Europe was deeply transformed by the slow entry of agricultural techniques, introduced by Neolithic farmers from the Middle East, in particular from Anatolia.

I'm looking forward to direct quotations supporting the claim that C-S said that "Blasians may be as genetically distant from Blacks as Whites." And by the way, is that statement intended to mean "as genetically distant from Blacks as from Whites," or "as genetically distant from Black as Whites are?" I was assuming, somehow, that the claim was that the intermarriage of a black person and an "Asian" person would produce a person whose genetic heritage was equivalent to that of a European. (Note that on the chart provided above there is no locus for northern Chinese, and that Mongols are approximately 130-140% as far from Africans as are southern Chinese. Where you draw the line between the two [races] determines where its midpoint is, and how far that midpoint is from the Italians calculates out to be about 140% greater for southern Chinese than for Mongols.) P0M 03:07, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Genetic distances derived from 120 allele frequencies in Cavalli-Sforza's "The History and Geography of Human Genes".

If you look at the genetic distance chart, you'll see these 4 yellow circles that seem to correspond to 4 major groups: Oriental circle in the top left, white circle in the top right, black circle in the bottom right, oceanic circle in the bottom left. Anyway the article is not claiming that Europeans are a hybrid between blacks and orientals (that would be absurd). The article is simply citing Cavali-Sforza to claim that blasians are as genetically distant from blacks as whites are. I'm perfectly confident in that statement because blasians, if graphed on the chart, would simply be at the mid-point between the centre of the black circle and the centre of the oriental circle. The black-oriental mid point is about as far from the black circle as the white circle is. My personal experience is that some whites are furious that they can not call blasians black without also calling themselves black, but if that's what the data show, then that's what the data show Timelist 03:31, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

What you are claiming cannot be the basis for article content. It amounts to original research because you are drawing your own conclusions from C-S's book. P0M 03:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

And, by the way, I already used the same argument (based on SciAm data published in July 1980 or thereabouts) to put a racist in his place for attacking to Mexicans who weren't "pure" enough for him. I don't oppose the idea, but if we are going to attribute it to C-S we need a direct quotation. P0M 03:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I certainly respect tha view point (I'm actually the first to jump on other editors for original research) but here's why I disagree. No one would disagree that Blasians are in between blacks and orientals, hence there's nothing original about claiming that offspring are in between their parents genetically. After that, all we're doing is describing where blasians would be on the chart relative to whites and blacks. Wikipedia is not based on 100% quotes. We're allowed to put the information we've gathered from sources into our own words. I don't consider making very basic inferences to be original research. Timelist 03:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I think part of the problem is, what does "beween" mean in a 10,000 dimensional space?--Filll 04:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It's only 2 dimensional space. Only 2 factors were extracted from the PC analysis to explain most of the genetic variation. Timelist 04:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ. The charts shown here are all projections from a very high dimensional space onto a two dimensional space. In fact, I am not even sure they are total projections, but might be nonlinear transformations into a 2 dimensional space. However, whatever function was used to produce the 2 dimensions, a lot of information was discarded to get there.--13:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell this was the source of the citation to The History and Geography of Human Genes, p. 82. I'll ask Lukas19 to provide the direct quote and a citation to a peer-reviewed publication. --JWSchmidt 03:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I have the book right here. p. 82 has the chart that we have on this discussion page, and some technical discussion that does not seem to clarify issues we are involved with here. P0M 04:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to say, the chart is not super compelling, even if I believe culling things down to 120 alleles, relying on a small sample set of individuals, having no error bars, choosing one of dozens of potential genetic distance metrics, relying on an SVD in more or less arbitrary directions, and so on. It still looks like just a sprinkling of different populations around on a plane. What do the error bars/ellipses show? How would this be different in varimax analyses, which he said he did? What about discriminant analyses? Why are we so worked up about this? It just shows in this sort of arbitrary display you can spread out the "races", sort of. --Filll 04:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Well idealy we would want to see these "racial" clusters replicated by other biologists, studying another sample of the world's ethnic groups, using other equally objective mathematical procedures. Cavali-Sforza's data is just a starting point. Far more research is needed, and he's the first to admit that. The problem is such research is very expensive and very controversial, so this is probably the best we'll have for several years to come. Timelist 04:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what kind of a caption can be put on that photo that will suggest the question to readers in a way that will educate rather than confirm prejudices. The problem with the photo is that, to people who say "I know a person of another race when I see one," the photo "proves" that a "Blasian" is not a white person. The reason that it is a problematical, if inquiry provoking, piece of evidence is that we are in effect compating a mixture of diced fruit (the individual human, a product of two parents with two sets of very different superficial characteristics) with a fruit smoothie (the average European, the product of a long-term process of genetic mingling). In any child you do not get an average of the characteristics of the parents. My mother was 5' 2" and my father was 5' 11", but my brother is over 6', and I am 5' 10". P0M 04:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

At this point I think you're nit-picking. The typical Blasian has 50% Black genes, 50% Oriental genes. Timelist 04:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course, but the "Blasian" doesn't look like a European.P0M

A Blasian's not supposed to look like a European. Just because both Blasians and Euopeans are both in between blacks and orientals, does not mean they occupy the same place in the genetic grid. Oceanics are also in between blacks and orientals, and they are in the opposite quadrent from Europeans. Rember we're dealing with 2 dimensions, not a straight genetic line. Now the people who should look like Blasians would be the offspring of a European and an Oceanic (negritoes), because the oriental-black midpoint is identical to the Oceanic-White mid-point. Timelist 05:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Have I convinced everybody that Marks is not the one to quote? That was how I got involved in this mess to begin with.

If you have a problem with the current refernce we're using, then we'll just use the chart as our reference. We can provide a link to the chart's image page in the reference itself. Timelist 05:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I don't have a great deal of trouble believing the general picture. I read research back at the dawn of history (genetic research history, anyway) that was already finding genetic traits in Europeans that were giving those early researchers a sketchy picture of Europeans as sharing genetic traits that could be identified as typical of Africa and genetic traits that seemed to radiate from the east. What I have seen over the last twenty-five years seems to clarify that picture rather than to poke any major holes in it. It would be a big shock if something turned up to knock this model apart, but that is always possible.

If Wells is right, then one path of migration from Africa came from Central Asia and a later path of migration from Africa came up in a tight curve via the Middle East. That idea doesn't necessarily say anything about percentages of genetic traits, but the distinguishing traits are a tiny minority anyway.

What is the point that we can drive home with the "Blasian" picture? P0M 04:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The absurdity of the racits one drop rule. Southern whites would look down on a blasian for being black, when in fact the Southern white is just as close to blacks genetically as the blasian is. Timelist 05:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no point to the "gallery", it's pointless and obsolete. What is the point to any of the pictures? Are they supposed to represent "typical" people? There's no such thing, all humans are unique and different, no one is "typical". I'm not sure there is any point that any photograph in the "gallery" can possibly make. Indeed this whole discussion about "Blasians" (horrid word) is almost Pythonesque in it's sillyness. It is absurd to claim that people who have one Asian and one African parent are similar to Caucasians. It is absurd (and incorrect) to claim that Caucasians are the product of admixture between Africans and Asians, the areas of the Near East, the Indian subcontinent and the Caucuses must have been populated before Eastern Asia. It is absurd to claim that someone with an African parent and an Asian parent is no more African or Asian than an European is. Europeans do not have a recent (15000 years ago) African origin as far as I am aware, someone with an African parent would have. There is a misunderstanding in this, or someone is distorting science for political reasons. Alun 07:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree that it would be absurd to imply that caucasians were the product of sex between Africans and Asians or that Blasians are similar to caucasians. The article does not claim either of those things. But many Blasians feel very strongly that they are not Black, but that they are Blasian. Blasians will tell a white man to his face that he's blacker than they are. I've seen it first hand. We may think their views are absurd, but they probably think our views are absurd. Timelist 09:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea what "many Blasians" think or do not think. This is simply a form of weasel words. If there is a point of view like this then it belongs in a "Blasian" article. It can be expressed here as a point of view if it is cited, ant other pov should be cited, but should not be expressed in genetic terms because this does not make sense genetically. If a person of mixed African and Asian descent is not "Black" then why is a person of mixed African and European descent Black? These are POVs, they are not scientific theory. Let's stick to wikipedia policies shall we? Alun 09:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The article is not saying whether Blasians are Black or not Black. It's simply saying that Blasians have roughly the same genetic distance from Blacks as Europeans do. That's not POV, that's just math. Timelist 11:07, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

But it's irrelevant, and still untrue. Presumably someone with three African grandparents and one Asian grandparent would still be considered as "Blasian", but it would not be true for them. "Blasians" are not a population, they are not an ethnic group. You are trying to compare three stable "continental populations" with a heterogeneous unrelated group of people ("Blasians") who just happen to have both Asian and African ancestry, they "share" this ancestry by accident and not because of environmental and/or ethnic reasons. Alun 11:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your point is. Of course not all Blasians are the same, we're describing the typical Blasian. Why all the nit-picking? Timelist 12:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

What's a "typical Blasian"? I find your reasoning really confusing. What is "Blasian filk-lore"? "Blasian" people are not an ethnic group, they are no more or less Black than African-Americans, as I understand it on average African-Americans have a 20% European ancestry does this make them Bleuropeans? Should we call Black people who have a greater than 50% European ancestry "not really Black"? I can't help but feel that your reasoning is quite scary. Alun 12:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why you are so scared to admit that white people are just as black as blasians are. We're all Africans under the skin. It's nothing to be afraid of. Timelist 12:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

If I were the one coming at this thing from the outside, I wouldn't be convinced by an argument that said: "You are half African and half Asian in your genetic heritage, and when we reproduce that mix by showing the offspring of an African and an Asian you can see what the result is in the photo above." I would be convinced if, above this caption there were a picture of someone who looked more or less like me. P0M 07:01, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It's striclty speaking irrelevent what your mother was, what counts is what your mother's father was, I can't believe you needed someone to tell you this.--LaBotadeFranco 04:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Updated wording

The text has been changed to:

According to Cavalli-Sforza's allele frequency data, Blasians may be as genetically distant from Blacks as Whites are.

and still cites Luca Cavalli-Sforza et al., The History and Geography of Human Genes, p. 82.

I'm repeating my request for direct quotes from this cited source about "genetic distance" between blasians, blacks and whites. It would also be useful if there were a citation to a peer-reviewed publication that discusses "Cavalli-Sforza's allele frequency data" that supposedly say something about "genetic distance" between blasians, blacks and whites.

And to be clear, the need to verify this citation can not be satisfied by original research from Wikipedia editors. Specifically, Wikipedia has no place for arguments generated by Wikipedians based on their interpretations of images that do not contain clearly labeled genetic data for "blasians", "blacks" and "whites". Either we find a verifiable and reliable source for this scientific claim or it must be removed from Wikipedia. --JWSchmidt 23:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedians are not interpreting images. They're simply describing it. Not everything must be direct quotes. We're allowed to put things in our own words. Timelist 23:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Timelist, that's not the point. I doubt if the cited source says anything about blasians. If the cited source does say something about blasians, I want to know what it says. This is how Wikipedians verify sources. A Wikipedian's interpretation of an image is not a reliable source when we are dealing with conclusions drawn from of a complex scientific data set. --JWSchmidt 21:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed this from the article because this claim has not been verified as being supported by the cited source: "In some cases, according to Cavalli-Sforza's allele frequency data, some Blasians are almost as genetically distant from some blacks as some whites are." --JWSchmidt 23:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• I just want to make one thing clear. I didnt make the claim in the gallery. I just re-wrote it. [1] See the discussion here [2]. And "DNA of the world's populations cluster" came from [3]. Lukas19 18:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

When making a statement as potentially inflammatory, as the above-named quote regarding so called "blasians", the least that is expected is a direct quote from a published work. It seems to me that parts of this article is based on unsubstantiated claims, or interpretations of barely credible sources such dictionary.com. --Ezeu 00:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of caption?

The "Bladisn" caption now says: "Blasians may be as genetically distant from Blacks as Whites are."

Does that sentence mean, "Blasians may be as genetically distant from Blacks as Whites are distant from Blacks?" I printed the chart out and did some measuring, so let's see how the numbers work out.

If Blacks and Whites are measured to be 6.5 units apart from each other, then Blasians are supposed to be 6.5 units from Blacks, right?" But when you plot it out on the graph, Blasians are 4.25 units from Blacks.

Should that sentence mean, "Blasians may be as genetically distant from Blacks as are Whites?" In that case Blasians are measured to be 4.25 units from Blacks and Blacks ought to be 4.25 units from Whites. But the measured distance is much larger, 6.5 units.

Shouldn't the idea be that Blasians have an intermediate position between Asians and Africans just as Europeans have an intermediate position between Asians and Africans? But the distances are definitely not equal. Blasians are 4.25 units from Blacks, but Blacks are 6.5 units from Whites. and Asians are 7 units from Whites.

Perhaps I am missing some way to construe the caption that would make the math come out even approximately, but I don't see it. P0M 08:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Well according to Blasian folk-lore, one drop of North East Asian blood cancels out a drop of black blood, so for this reason many Blasians feel that mulattoes are Black but Blasians are not. If Blasians are 4.25 units away from being black, they would argue that they're distant enough to not be considered black, but by your measurements mulattoes would be only 3.25 units from Blacks (half the distance that whites are) and thus would be considered Black. Also, are you sure you measured correctly? Did you measure from the center of each circle? Also keep in mind that the genetic distance you measured for Blasians assumes that they have 1 parent who is pure African which would bring them closer to Africans, but in reality their black parent is usually African-American (who are typically only 83% African, 17% Europeans) and so the combination of being 1/2 Oriental and 1/6th European, would make them aproximately about as removed from Africans as 100% Europeans are.Timelist 09:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Am I the only one who finds this sort of reasoning really quite scary? Looks like the sort of thing they used to do in the 1930's to determine who was "Aryan" or not....Gives me the shiveres. Alun 12:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree race is a scary concept that has been badly misapplied, but if wikipedia insist on allowing articles about such antiquated topics, we have to make sure they have their facts right. Timelist 12:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

This is the second time that there has been an indication of people wanting to deny their genetic heritage. I do not find that idea frightening. I find it sad. How can one be a whole person, an integrated person, if one tries to throw away a part of oneself? It reminds me of homosexual J. Edgar Hoover leading a crusade against homosexuals. The worst result, the part that is scary, is that one joins the oppressors in an effort to gain safety for oneself. The devil comes when two groups contemn each other. P0M 19:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The Wells map indicates that there were two paths to Europe, a long path that went into Central Asia and then veered west and moved into Europe along a path farther from the Equator than the eastward path, and another path that is a tight counterclockwise hook from Africa through somewhere around Turkey and on up into Europe. The people who are in Cemtral Asia now are not the people who were there tens of thousands of years ago. They have changed. The people who moved into Europe changed as they moved and continued to change after they got there. The people in the second wave of migration are likely to be a little more similar to the people living now in the departure area in Africa simply because the original population in Africa will have changed relatively little, and the people moving into Europe by the shorter trail have undergone equally short changes of their own. Both migratory paths lead to the same part of the globe, and migrating people who arrived by both paths have long intermarried and the distinctions between the groups have blended into each other. In addition to melding, they have continued to change. P0M 09:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The Wells map and the Sforza map both show that caucasians branched off of Africans and the North East Asians later branched off of the caucasians. So if Africans gave bith to Cuacasians and Caucasians gave birth to North East Asians, one might expect that Caucasians would be genetically in between North East Asians and Africans. Also the climate in which the caucasians evolved was not as warm as Africa, but not as freezing as North East Asia, so climatic selection pressures would have also caused caucasians to be in between Africans and North East Asians. Also since caucasians are geographically in between Africa and North East Asia, they would have recieved gene flow from both groups, which would further cause them to cluster in between and Africans and North East Asians. Timelist 09:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. The second wave of migration out of Africa took a land route into central Asia. Then they did a star burst and one group did a left u-turn and headed into Europe. I guess I could redraw Wells's map and put it up. It's pretty crappy the way they did it in the book, anyway. P0M 19:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

So what am I wrong about? Timelist 20:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

So, far easterns and whites both "branched out" of a group in central Asia. And, Far East was populated earlier than Europe, hence it is impossible that Far Easterns "branched out" of whites...Hence, you are wrong...Lukas19 18:47, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

File:Fig.2.3xxx.JPG

POM is right. The longest line between Blacks and Asians is the one between Mongol/Tungus and W. African. The mid point of this line is assumed as the genetic distance of this type of "Blasian" to Blacks. This distance is still LESS than the length of line between Sardinian and E African. The line between Sardinian and E African is the smallest one between Whites and Blacks. Lukas19 18:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The typical Black parent of a Blasian is African American which means 17% white. You have to factor that into genetic distance. Also the statement is meant to be taken as aproximate. Timelist 19:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

If a black parent of "Blasian" is 17% white, that'd reduce the distance between Asian and Black and that makes you even more wrong. I'm going to delete that picture and explanation tomorrow. Lukas19 19:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh and the typical African American is West African and hence farther away from Whites than East Africans...Lukas19 19:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Another source claims caucasians are in between East Asians and Africans

http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/em_gene.html

Quote taken from book review of "The history and geography of human genes"

How might European gene frequencies come to be part way between Chinese and African? Part of the explanation is simply geographical. The Caucasoids are located in between the territory of the Negroids and the Mongoloids, and presumably have received genes from both groups. The term Caucasoid is used instead of merely European because it is the Middle Eastern and Indian Caucasoids who are best located to exchange genes with both the Negroids and Mongoloids. However, a theory of Ammerman & Cavalli-Sforza (1973), discussed in this book (p. 108) provides a mechanism for how the Europeans could come to be intermediate in gene frequencies. They argue on the basis of archeological evidence and gradients of gene frequencies in Europe that agriculture, after emerging in the Middle East, spread into Europe by demic diffusion. By demic diffusion is meant that the early farming populations expanded gradually with each new generation moving further into Europe, with the average rate being about one kilometer per year. The alternative to this account is that the technique of farming diffused without movement of peoples.'' Timelist 11:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

This does not say that Caucasians are the descendants of African and Asian admixture. Indeed it is impossible that they are, people must have lived in the Near East and sub-continental India before they got to Asia, how else would Asia have been populated? Alun 11:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

No one's claiming that caucasians are the descendants of an African and Asian admixture. All that's being said is that Caucasians (like Blasians) are intermediate between Africans and Asians. Timelist 12:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Why are we saying this? I wonder what it's supposed to illustrate? How does it fit into a Black people article, and should it be there? "Race" is a social construct much more than a genetic one. Saying this seems to be denying "Blasian" people their own ethnic identity, even if it's not your intent. Alun 12:05, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

You are making my point. Race is partly a social construct, and that's why it's important to point out that people who are socially percieved as black (i.e. blasians) are genetically no more black than people who are socially percieved as white (europeans). We're all Africans under the skin, it's just a matter of degree. Timelist 12:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

"Race" is a social construct. Wht do you claim that they are "no more Black than Europeans". This is clearly nonsense, if "race" is a social concept, whic you claim to accept, and a "Blasian" person has a Black parent, then they are socially and genetically Black, they are also socially and genetically Asian. They are never socially or genetically European because they do not have European parents, or ancestors. They share some genes with Europeans, but then so do Asians and Africans, we are a single húman population, we are genetically not very diverse as a species, most variation is at the individual level and not the "population" level. Most of our genes occur throughout the whole human population. Alun 12:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

But Alun, why censor the absurdities of the genetic views on race such as Whites being as genetically related to blacks as Blasians are. And I never said anything about Blasians being European. This is is a misunderstanding. Just because Blasians and Europeans are both in between Blacks and Orientals, does not mean they share the same genetic profile. Oceanic people are also in between blacks and orientals. Please study the chart. Timelist 12:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to censure anything. But I think these assumptions are based on the idea of "races" being "discrete populations", but they are not. It must be true that all non-African human populations are eually as related to African populations as each other. It must also be true that someone with an African parent is more African than someone without an African parent. I don't understand your reasoning at all. "Blasians" and Europeans are not "both in between Blacks and "Orientals"". This is clearly nonsense. There are no "in betweens", the human species is not divided into exclusive non-overlapping "races" from a genetic point of view. Surely it is simply a statement of the bleeding obvious to claim that any person has (about) half their mother's genes and half their father's genes, if their parents are from different "races" then they share genes from both "races". But the human population is not split up into "races" on the genetic level, genes are clinally distributed, not discreetly distributed. Caucasians have a closer genetic relationship to African than Asian people do because we are geographically adjacent, we are also geographically adjacent to Asia. The chances of gene flow between Caucasian people and Asian people and gene flow between Caucasian people and African people is clearly far greater than the cances of gene flow between Asian people and African people. But the statement that "Blasians" are no more Black than "Caucasians" is completelly nonsense because "Blasians" have recent Black origins, unlike Caucasians. I do not support the inclusion of this, it smacks of racism. Alun 12:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Blasians only have 1 parent of recent black origin. The other parent is 2 steps removed from Black origin. Thus on average Blasians are 1 full step removed from Black origin. By contrast Caucasians just have 2 parents who are 1 step removed from black origin and thus are also 1 step removed from Black origin just like Blasians. I think the unwillingness to admit that Caucasians are just as black as Blasians are is what smacks of racism, but I guess we can just agree to diagree on this minor point Timelist 13:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I also note that the quote states European gene frequencies come to be part way between Chinese and African, not equidistant, but part. It is just as true to point out that African-American gene frequencies come part way between African and European ones. What is it supposed to prove? Alun 12:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It's supposed to prove that the superficial African appearance of Blasians does not make them anymore black then a blond blue eyed Sweedish person. We're all African under the skin. Not sure why that is such a scary concept Timelist 12:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It's scary that you keep suggesting that people with Black parents should not be considered Black, that's why it's scary. I cannot accept that a person with a Black parent and an Asian parent should be considered no more black than a Swede. Do you also think that a person with a, say Nigerian father and a Finnish mother (I know such a couple) is not Black? Alun 12:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

You find it scary. I find it provocative and interesting. Again, it's 1 tiny caption in a massive article. It's not like we're giving it undue weight. Timelist 13:05, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Both of you are right, so let's calm down a little. We all came from somewhere. We're all related. None of us are pure. Some "white" Americans, maybe Archy Bunker or Strom Thurmond among them, have in almost a third of their genetic heritage features that show recent ancestry in Africa. Afro-Americans typically have an even more cosmopolitan make-up. Perhaps most of the whites would want to deny their recent African ancestry. Perhaps most of the Afro-Americans would like to forget that their recent white ancestry came because some white slave owner took advantage of his slaves. But the facts are right there in the DNA. It is this very fact that makes any talk of [races] tortured. Ethnic groups try to keep themselves "pure" by setting up social, linguistic, and religious barriers to exogamy. It just doesn't work perfectly, and the more amorous males from "the outside" who are wandering through some area, the more mixture there is.

So let's consider a case where there was 80,000 years of geographical isolation, Australia. First of all, we don't have any reason to believe that no individuals reached Australia from the outside during this period. But even so, what would the genetic constitutions of these people look like? Could they say, "We're not black?"

Maybe it took all of 10,000 years for people to have filled in coastal area after coastal area, felt population pressure, and then to have moved on toward the east until they finally reached Australia. During those 10,000 years they would have accumulated some genetic changes and the people back in Africa would have accumulated some changes. Maybe some of the Africans moved to the highest UV areas and grew even darker, for instance. Then over the next 70,000 years or so the two groups stayed in place, one in Africa and one in Australia. Sometimes people filtered back into Africa from the Middle East. But we're assuming nobody managed the make it to Australia again. (The oceans were rising, making the sea travel needed much more challenging.)

Just before the lusty European sailors made it to Australian shores, the lonely Australians had been apart from the Africans for 80,000 years. What grounds would they have had for saying, "We are not the descendants of Africans." How could they have said, "Look! We have evolved! We have double-jointed thumbs and Africans don't! We are the new people! How dare you sully our name by saying we are "Out of Africa?"

We are all different from each other, and we are all more like our relatives than we are like people with whom we share no recent relatives. Our differences are interesting and useful. Our similarities bind us together inextricably. [Race] is a social construct, and social constructs are generally one part fact and three parts fantasy. P0M 20:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Blasian illegitimate?

"Blasian" is not a legitimate category or label, please, we as a group should know better. Secondly, you can't lump all Europeans into one basket so to say, countless genetic studies have demonstrated that Germans, Russians and to a lesser extant the French, have a far greater Asian genetic influence than do for example Basques or Scots. I strongly suggest we drop the "Blasian" issue altogether, it's a very dead horse.--Albinomite 12:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

• "Blasian" is not a legitimate category or label

Who says? Alun 12:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

There's an entire article on Blasians. I'm curious as to why 1 small little caption has suddenly become so controversial. What's really going on here? Timelist 12:41, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I never said there aren't people who call or are called "Blasians," I meant to say that it is not a term frequently employed by scientists or academics. "Blasian" is simply a neologism for metis or mulatre.--Albinomite 12:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The term black is not frequesntly used by scientists either. Timelist 12:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Also I was hoping to call a quorum, and vote on certain points which need resolving if this article is to have any future whatsoever...I was discussing this article with other long time wiki editors who were interested in participating but they wanted to first vote on certain matters and set a foundation and parameters from which editors would not be allowed to deviate. I think this is something frankly that this article is sorely lacking, structure, discipline and a firmer basis upon which to build on.--Albinomite 12:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

• Also I was hoping to call a quorum, and vote on certain points which need resolving if this article is to have any future whatsoever

No such thing exists. We make changes by consensus. "Voting" is a last resort and will take some time. If there are things you would like to discuss regarding the article discuss them here first. If you attempt to force a vote on issues that have not been extensively discussed then they will simply be reverted. Please see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution Alun 13:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Also for the record I'm going to do some edits to the article, LaBota and Balino-Antimod and M of Magencio might join me, do not be alarmed.--Albinomite 13:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do, it is your prerogative. Remember this article is very contentious, you have not been involved in the discussions very much, if you edit against consensus then your edits will likely get reverted. Alun 13:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Why create controversy where none has existed? The article is fine. I'm tired of all the talk about how the article is doomed or has no future. The more you say it, the more it comes true. Timelist 12:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

"The article is fine" <-- I do not agree. This article is full of statements that are not supported by verifiable and reliable sources. This article is edited by many people who do not seem interested in the requirement that the content of the article come from verifiable and reliable sources. --JWSchmidt 20:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The aricle is just a collection of opinions about how to define black people. Oprinions by definitions are unsupported conclusions, but that's what the article is about. Black people don't exist in factual reality, they're just a social construct, and this article simply documents the history of that social construct, and all the nutty ideas along the way Timelist 20:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with JWSchmidt. Even if the article refers to an opinion, it must be cited. P0M 20:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It's one of the best cited aticles on wikipedia Timelist 21:07, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It is the statements of fact and the assertions regarding the opinions or judgments of various people that have to be cited. P0M 00:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Drastic edits

Drastic edits that replace the term "black people" with the word negritude which is a different concept, and remove big blocks of text including references, are not a good idea, unless they have been discussed first.--Filll 13:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't stand when people remove stuff forom articles or make massive changes. Several sections are very controversial and required cooperative editing on the part of people with opposing views. New editors making even small changes could very rapidly destabalize the article. Timelist 13:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok I will not play the revert game but I will try to recruit more new editors (which is allowed) and the majority will win the day.--Albinomite 13:40, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

No it's not, see WP:SOCK#Advertising_and_soliciting_meatpuppets. You can be banned for this. You have already broken enough rules to get a block I think. Whatever I've asked for the article to be protected from editing. Alun 13:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

What do you want to "win"? You want to remove the phrase "black people" and replace it with "negritude"? Why? What do you want? And if you manage to get your changes put in for a few hours before getting them reverted, they will not last. Someone else will revert them. And if you become pushy, you will just get banned. So it is better to discuss these things first.--Filll 13:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I notice you do not like the introductory paragraph. The point of the introductory paragraph is to produce a very accessible introduction to the article so people can tell at a glance what it is about. And what it is about, is that no one agrees on who is black and who is not black. Also, the introductory paragraph points out that no humans have black skin. Humans have light skin or dark skin, but no human is really black. So from the outset, the term is sort of dumb. If we did what you want, it would make the article less accessible, and it would not describe the article. Of course, you might want to change the article drastically so it does not show that there is disagreement about the definition. If that is your intention, then you might have to consider another article, or to include your definition in the list. Because there are multiple definitions, like it or not. And they do not agree.--Filll 14:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

At last, someone who gets what the article is about. Timelist 20:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Fill and Timelist. If there is a specific concept or theory you want to include in an article then feel free to create an article about it, or include it in this one, in addition to those already expressed. This is an encyclopaedia, it contains lots of information and it contains what people believe, it therefore covers diverse opinions and points of view, not specific single POVs. There are all sorts of articles that I personally think are about subjects that are nonsense, for example Intelligent Design or Nordicism, but they are valid subjects for an encyclopedia, my opinion of the subject matter is irrelevant to their inclusion, this does not preclude me from including a specific POV to the articles if I feel one is missing. Your ideas of a "Black race" do not necessarily fit in this article, it's about the various different ideas about Black people, and as Filll correctly says there is no single and universally accepted definition of who constitutes a Black person. Alun 20:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Friends let us stop with the Blasian nonsense, they have there own article, anyways Blasians are very small group, most Asians do not like to be with Blacks (it is almost as unheard of as a black and white sock pair; this is well known).--Balino-Antimod 07:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

When I see comments like this, I have to admit the the "falangists" just seem like they are pulling our legs and are being funny. It is like one huge practical joke.--Filll 13:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Friend, when we say we're Nuevo Falangistas we're not joking, our project is to bring balance and reason to those wikipedia articles that have been contaminated by Communist and anti-Occidental subversive propaganda. Sugaar is one of the worst offenders, he ought to be persona non grata in wikipedia for his crimes against Spanish culture and nationhood.--Albinomite 15:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you have made a single constructive comment since you have been here. Please keep your posts relevant to the article. We've seen your version of "balance and reason". I see neither therein. Alun 17:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Albinomite has been indef blocked. Joelito (talk) 18:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Captions for gallery

I really fail to see what is wrong or POV about these edits of mine.[4] Timelist seems to think they are more POV than his version, but I can't see it. For example Timelist's edit makes a great deal of Michael Jackson's skin colour, but this is irrelevant, he is a Black person, so we can say this, it is not a POV but a fact, we can also observe that his skin colour is quite pale. Likewise we can state that Clinton is not black, we don't need to invoke definitions to say this, but I think we need to use more encyclopaedic language than he grew up poor (not all Black people are poor). Also Many dictionary, census, and biological definitions for Black people indicate an African ancestry is a prerequisite. is something of a distortion, dictionary.com states pertaining or belonging to any of the various populations characterized by dark skin pigmentation, specifically the dark-skinned peoples of Africa, Oceania, and Australia. which certainly includes Black Australians, and Merriam-Webster says a : having dark skin, hair, and eyes, b (1) often capitalized : of or relating to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin (2) : of or relating to the African-American people or their culture <black literature> <a black college> <black pride> <black studies> (3) : typical or representative of the most readily perceived characteristics of black culture <trying to sound black> <tried to play blacker jazz> so these dictionaries both accept people of non-African origin as Black. So what's wrong with saying that it's only some definitions that exclude non-African people? Not to say this appears to support one definition over another. Finally using official census definitions census definitions are not official and are not universal, there are different criteria in different states. In the UK, where I come from, the the state does not collect "racial" data, bur ethnic identity data, one cannot identify as Black, one has to be "Black British" or "Afro-Carribean" or "Black African" or "Black other", a person who self identifies as Black but who is not of African descent is entitled to self define as Black on the census form. Census data are not good sources for articles like this that cover large numbers of people who do not live in the states that are defining the "group". All in all I think the article is very biased in favour of an Afrocentric definition of Black, whenever the term is used in the article it seems to indicate support for this exclusive definition. The whole section on Ethiopians seems to be specifically designed to show that they aren't Black, though I think by most definitions they are Black people. I would like to get a feel for what the consensus is. If there is a general feeling that my edits should be reverted then I'm happy to accept this, though I'd like to get some feedback about why they are considered so bad. Cheers. Alun 15:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ friend, by Jackson's own (self-racist) definition and performance he's not black. Although this does raise an interesting philosophical problem: Is Jackson insane for hating his innate blackness, or highly rational in seeing blackness as something undesirable and indeed odious?--Albinomite 15:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you have made a single constructive comment since you have been here. Please keep your posts relevant to the article. Alun 17:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The current caption to the "Blasian" photo is mathematical nonsense. "According to Cavalli-Sforza's allele frequency data, Blasians may be as genetically distant from Blacks as Whites are". If you actually graph it out on the chart given in the footnote, it does not work. The reason is that you are leaving out tens of thousands of years of genetic change. The current population of Africa and the current population of Asia have both changed over the past 100,000 years or so. On top of that, the European population has modified independently of both groups over the last 10,000 years or so since they first arrived in Europe. That means that the people who are now mixing genetic components that we can label geographically as "African₂₀₀₀" and "Asian₂₀₀₀" are not carrying the same genetic components (even statistically speaking0 as the groups that we can label as "African_-50,000" and "Asian_-45,000." P0M 18:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe we're still talking about Blasians. All of the points you're making have been responded to above. Timelist 18:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Do the math. The last time I suggested that the math was way off you commented on issues of affect. P0M 18:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I said that you have to consider that most black parents of blasians are 17% white so that affects genetic distance of offspring. Also, the statement is very approximate, the math doesn't have to work out 100%. Lastly, why do you care? Are you Blasian? I don't understand how passionate you are against this one little caption Timelist 18:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not "passsionate" against this "one little caption." I am passionate about the truth, and this caption distorts the truth. All you can reasonably say is that the so-called "white race" has a mixed genetic heritage with its original point of origin in ancient Africa and that the so-called "Blasians" have a mixed genetic heritage with its original point of origin in present-day Africa and present-day Asia. P0M 19:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It's distorts the truth to you because you are ignoring the fact that A) the statement is very aproximate, and B) Black parents of Blasians are only 83% black Timelist 19:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

How do you know they are "only" 83% Black? As I understand it this figure is for the "average" African America, so it has two problems. Why are you assuming that all "Blasians" have an African American parent? Why couldn't some have an African parent? And it is only an average figure, there must be many African Americans who have a much higher incidence of African ancestry, everyone is not "average". Alun 19:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I jsut feel like you are trying to rob African-descended people of the word black by expanding its meaning to include all these other people. You're so concerned with being politically correct, but seem to have no problem offending African Americans. And all because you are afraid of offending Australian aboriginals? But you are not Australian aboriginal so how can you speak for what they find offensive. For all you know they TOO find it offensive for this colonialist term to be used on them. I just don't get it. Timelist 18:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

This is not about how you feel. This article is about Black people, not only about people of African descent. Many definitions, if not most do not mean African when they use Black, and it is incorrect to say that they do. I do not understand why you think this is offensive to African Americans, there is already an article about African Americans and you want this article to also be exclusively about African Americans, or at least to have a very Afrocentric North American bias. It is true that in North America the vast majority of Black people are of African descent, but this is not a universally accepted definition of Black, even if it is taken as a given in North America. Please see the two dictionary definitions above. pertaining or belonging to any of the various populations characterized by dark skin pigmentation, specifically the dark-skinned peoples of Africa, Oceania, and Australia I find it really hypocritical to claim that this article is about the various definitions/meanings of Black people, while also seeming to give a massive bias in favour of one definition over another. It's not neutral. Irrespective of this, my changes above are not particularly about the exclusive African origin of Black people, they are more an atempt to introduce a more neutral tone, so it's an irrelevant point for these changes, isn't it? [5] Alun 18:28, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

"This is not about how you feel. This article is about Black people, not only about people of direct African descent." (You need to change one word. We are all of African descent.) P0M 18:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, should have read "recent African descent". But you knew what I meant surely. Alun 19:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

'Twas a friendly ammendment. You and I know what you mean and what is involved, but I'm not sure that everybody else is clear that it makes a difference, i.e., that the average African of today is not the average African of 100,000 years ago. Peace. P0M 19:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

There are many many definitions of black people, however one of the common demoninators in most of them is African ancestry. Find me a single census anywhere in the world that mentions a non-African descended group in their definition of black. There already is an article about African-Americans, but that is limited to Americans. Black is an ethnicity that trancends national borders. Your broader definition of black is supported by very few definitions and hence should not be given undue weight. Timelist 18:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• There are many many definitions of black people, however one of the common demoninators in most of them is African ancestry.

I don't quite know what you mean by this. All definitions include people of African descent, none ever claim that people of African descent are not Black. No one is trying to say that this is not the case. But this is not the same as saying that being of African descent is the only determining definition of a Black person. You are bringing bias into the article by implying that African descent is the correct definition, and Black people not of recent African descent are not "normally considered" Black. This may be true in North America, but it is not universal. Not only is this extremely racist, but it is simply not true. Alun 18:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• Find me a single census anywhere in the world that mentions a non-African descended group in their definition of black.

Since when did census data become the defining medium for ethnic identity? Censuses all over the world use different criteria. If you want to include the US census definition of Black in the definition section then please do. There was a lot of incorrect information about the British census in the text before. Alun 18:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• Black is an ethnicity that trancends national borders. Your broader definition of black is supported by very few definitions and hence should not be given undue weight.

I agree, but there is a difference between giving something undue weight on the one hand, and deviating from neutrality to such an extent that the article gives the impression that one POV is correct and another is incorrect. It may be true that Black people are more often considered to be of African descent, and this should be reflected in the article, but this does not mean that the article should imply that this is "correct" or "universally accepted", and I think that this is exactly what the article does at the moment. It is biased and clearly in breach of the NPOV policy. See NPOV: Bias, and especially NPOV: undue weight. Alun 18:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The article does NOT imply any definition is correct. And you are the one being racist by showing no respect at all for African descended people by using the term on non-Africans, many of whom don't even want to be called black. You are the one who thinks its okay to downplay census information just because it contradicts your POV. That's a viloation of wikipedia's reliable sources rule. Timelist 19:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The article certainly does imply this. I have a great deal of respect for many people including people of African descent, it doesn't mean that I have to agree with them does it? It is not "racist" for me to say that the term "Black" is not universally used exclusively for people of recent African descent. How can I be "downplaying" census data when I just asked you to include the census definition in the article? I simply stated that census data are notoriously difficult to use because the criteria are very different from country to country. No country will provide a definition that is universally accepted, but I think the definition should be included because it is refered to so much in the article. Alun 19:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It just occurred to me that just about any person can be labeled "black" if the conditions are right: eg. he's a proud black man; he was known for his black-bilious manner; the blacks of India remain an underclass; he was black with rage, etc...The term is almost infinitely malleable--Cupidon 18:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Personally I think the article should be divided up based on definitions. Someone once said that they don't try to put Indians from India and Native American Indians into 1 article just because they're both called Indian. This article should be about African descended people, and there should be another article about dark skinned people in general. I mean, even if you limit the definition to African descent there's so much controversy about who is black: Are egyptians black? Are mulattoes black? Are quadroons black? Are Blasians black? Is Michael Jackson black? But when you totally confuse the issue by throwing in Australian aboriginals and folks from Southern India, it just creates a huge mess. Timelist 18:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You can't do that because Black people does not universally mean people of African descent. You would have people coming here to find out about Black people, only to get a distorted POV. Alun 19:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I for one second that. Let us focus on those of African descent, groups like the Australian Aborginals have always been marginal (to say the least) in discussions involving black people. A for good measure include note saying the definition is not meant to be all-inclusive or exhaustive, simply reasonable and efficient.--Cupidon 18:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Alun, No word universally applies to any 1 definition, but if you're going to write an article you have to pick a definition and stick to it. We would simply have a disclaimer at the start of the article that says this article refers to people of recent African ancestry. For a broader discussuon on all dark skinned groups, see dark skinned people You wouldn't suggest that Native American Indians and India's Indians should share the same article would you? Please show people of African descent the same respect allow African descended people an exclusive space Timelist 19:19, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

In that case the article could not mention "Blasians," could it. P0M 19:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Timelist said: "I said that you have to consider that most black parents of blasians are 17% white so that affects genetic distance of offspring. Also, the statement is very approximate, the math doesn't have to work out 100%. Lastly, why do you care? Are you Blasian? I don't understand how passionate you are against this one little caption"

If a black parent of "Blasian" is 17% white, that'd reduce the distance between Asian and Black and that makes you more wrong. I'm going to delete that picture and explanation tomorrow. Lukas19 19:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It reduces the distance between Asians and hybridized Blacks and increases the distance between Blasians and 100% Blacks to the point where it's roughly equal to the distance of whites and 100% blacks which proves the caption correct Timelist 19:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The typical African American is West African and hence farther away from Whites than East Africans are to Whites...Hence even with all those pre conditions (1- Blasian in question should be half Mongol, half W African while not all Blasians are like that. 2- Black parent must include some white admixture...etc..), you are wrong...Lukas19 19:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Your point about most African Americans being West African is a good one. I changed the caption to "almost as genetically distant as whites are". Timelist 19:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes by all means off with the "Blasian" picture, I can remove it now if so commissioned.--Cupidon 19:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Why is Nelson Mandela not there? We have a couple of "celebs" but not the greatest living human being. Shame I say. Alun 19:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Just because no one wants to admit that whites are as close to blacks as a group of half-black people. Sad that in the 21st century, people are so still so disturbed by such issues. Timelist 19:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with saying that the so-called "White race" derives in two broad lines of family connections, one rather remotely from Africa via someplace in central Asia and one more directly from Africa via someplace in the Mid-East, and that the so-called "Blasians" derive from recent ancestry in Africa, recent ancestry in Asia, with some additional recent "white race" components.P0M 19:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

But you DO see a problem with the slightest hint that white people could be almost as close to blacks as a person with a black parent. Really what's happening is deep down people are still obsessed with the one drop rule of the segregated south. The notion that even the smallest hint of black blood contaminated and moved one to the black side of the fence. Hence many whites are uncomfortable with the idea that they're almost as close to being black as the people who are stigmatized by the one drop rule. That's really why that 1 little caption has created weeks and weeks of non-stop controversy and analysis Timelist 20:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not have any problem with the outright assertion that we are all so mixed up that any talk of purity is a pipe dream. Rejecting one's actual genetic inheritance is not only a problem with ignorant white people. It's been a shock to see on this very discussion page how many people of ultimate African derivation (as we all are) are adamant in their denial of "being black." If their arguments were to hold any water at all I think I could deny being Caucasian on the ground that all my ancestors have been in the N. American continent for 4 generations now. Surely I've evolved beyond my roots. ;-) The controversy that I raised about that "one little caption" is that it is non properly sourced. Just look at what we've already established. Somebody even argued against me that the article cited was Time mistake because they misquoted Marks as attacking Cavalli-Sforza, which made it an even worse misattribution than I thought it was. Then you or somebody else tried to drag in the chart from C-S, which would have been o.k. except that conclusions were drawn from it that constitute (a) original research and (b) bad math.

One of the main problems behind this whole myth of [race] is that people talk as though people get to Peru or wherever, propagate and differentiate in isolation, and become so different that it makes a difference in anything other than what we can see at a glance.

For years now I have been raising this challenge to the scientific racists: Tell me one thing that some [race] has that is worth anything and is not possessed by other [races]. The best I've come up with is something like sickle-cell anemia--and that helpful/hurtful trait skips from [race] to [race] to propagage itself in areas where malaria is a serious problem. Every single difference I've seen that matters does so because it is an adaptation to a specific environment. Once you're out of that environment is becomes more or less of a detriment.

First of all, as I see it, no [race] has an advantageous trait of general importance. If it did, then unless they gelded all their young men who traveled abroad that trait would spread over the world since it would give advantages to their progeny.

Second, no [race] is pure. The Australians had a shot at it before the trade and conquest open the place up. We draw neat charts that show main lines of descent, and we find Japanese on one little line, and European on another line. If we consider the marriage of a couple, one from each place, you have in miniature what happens all across the board. Each group sooner or later sends an "emissary" to all the other groups. In the chart below I've only started at the two ends to draw in all the connections that are going to occur unless you put all sailors and travelers in chastity belts. I gave up because with just two groups and two colors I had already covered the whole chart with too many lines to distinguish clearly. That shows just how "pure" we really are. I think I know my genetic heritage. Truth to tell I never saw my paternal grandfather. Maybe he was half American Indian and the family covered it up. I have some idea where my great grandparents came from, and assuming nobody lied to me there were no different looking folks among them. But beyond that who knows? Sooner or later I'm going to find that one out of the thousands of ancestors a dozen or so generations back found a mate from afar.

Connections of just two groups with all the others.

Note that the distances from right to left indicate the amount of genetic variation that occurs naturally over time. Whatever was at the right end of the chart is not found totally unchanged anywhere on the chart, even on the nearest to straight-line connection. P0M 20:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Stop being so passionate. Stop feeling like it's your job to educate everyone else. Stop accusing Blasians of denying their heritage. It's their heritage. If they want to deny it, that's none of your business You just worry about yourself. Don't worry about what race other people are or whether race exists at all Perosnally I think all this talk about humans are all so mixed that race can't exist is all a bunch of hooey. If race doesn't exist how come forensic experts are able to determine your continent of origin of a fossil with 80% accuracy just by looking at the skull? How come racial self identification correlates so strongly with genetic markers? How come we tell what part of the world someone's ancestors are just by looking at them. You just read a couple politically correct book by people who don't even believe what they are saying, and now you think your educated enough to overturn hundreds of years of science. You think your educated enough to tell black people they don't really exist and dismiss them as a social construct. Just take a deep breath and relax Timelist 21:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's rather ignorant to say race doesnt exist. Rather than educating, it's more like missionary preaches.

“ Genetic variation is geographically structured, as expected from the partial isolation of human populations during much of their history. Because traditional concepts of race are in turn correlated with geography, it is inaccurate to state that race is "biologically meaningless." ”

[6]

However:

“ Approximately 85−90% of genetic variation is found within these continental groups, and only an additional 10−15% of variation is found between them ”

[7]

But:

“ In popular articles that play down the genetical differences among human populations, it is often stated that about 85% of the total genetical variation is due to individual differences within populations and only 15% to differences between populations or ethnic groups. It has therefore been proposed that the division of Homo sapiens into these groups is not justified by the genetic data. This conclusion, due to R.C. Lewontin in 1972, is unwarranted because the argument ignores the fact that most of the information that distinguishes populations is hidden in the correlation structure of the data and not simply in the variation of the individual factors. The underlying logic, which was discussed in the early years of the last century, is here discussed using a simple genetical example ”

[8]

Yes races arent discrete and the definition is vague. However these dont mean race doesnt exist. Just because concepts of "old" and "young" are vague and not discrete doesnt mean that these concepts dont exist. It's all simple logic really. Maybe some people's reasoning skills are not advanced and they feel the need to accuse others of ignorancy to hide their weaknesses. Accusing others to cover up one's self is a common human psychologic response afterall. Lukas19 21:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

As I said above,

I don't see any problem with saying that the so-called "White race" derives in two broad lines of family connections, one rather remotely from Africa via someplace in central Asia and one more directly from Africa via someplace in the Mid-East, and that the so-called "Blasians" derive from recent ancestry in Africa, recent ancestry in Asia, with some additional recent "white race" components

I think that statement is as much as can be supported by quotations from recognized authorities. It's a useful challenge to those who support racist ideas because they (as far as I know) put great stock in purity. But it never helps one's case to go beyond the evidence and get called on that score. What's wrong with a caption that draws an analogy between the two kinds of mixing of family trees? P0M 01:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Nothing. But that analogy doesnt support your previous arguments. It's rather well...just an analogy. You can also draw analogies of family trees of humans and cockroaches via evolving from single cell organisms at oceans. You can also draw analogies of "family" trees of humans and chairs via Big Bang, since both are composed of matter and have to comply with physics laws of our universe. And all matter and physics laws as we know it today were created out of Singularity during Big Bang. So you share some "ancestry" with chairs as well...However, since sharing "ancestry" billions of years ago has a completely different magnitude than your shared ancestry with a sibling, sharing ancestry 100,000 years ago (Africa) is also quite different than the case of Blasians...Lukas19 13:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Comments

Wow it sure looks to me like there is a lot more heat than light here. It would be difficult to say that people with darker skin and people with lighter skin do not exist. Of course some people have darker skin and some people have lighter skin. And skin color tends to be sort of inherited, but there are definitely exceptions. I am not trying to take the notion of having a darker color and even the idea of a separate culture away from black people, although there are many aspects of modern black American culture that are very corrosive and unproductive, frankly. However, as the NPR site shows, there are a lot of people that are not so easy to classify. For example, many people were shocked to realized that Barak Obama was claiming to be a "black" man when he was running for congress. They had thought he was white. I have met several people in my life whose "race" was not at all clear. Some of these people suffered terribly because of this. They did not fit in any group, and those with "black pride" frankly acted like complete jerks to these people who were supposed to be "black" by ancestry but had skin like snow white, whiter than the average white person's skin. And I have seen "white pride" and "black pride" and "Asian pride" and "Jewish pride" etc have VERY ugly sides sometimes. Also, I do agree that one can sometimes attribute a "race" by examining skeletal remains, although I suspect there are probably a lot of difficulties for people who are of "mixed" or nonstandard backgrounds. There were a lot of previous studies decades ago that showed differences in microscopic muscle structure between races but I do not know the current status of that area. The reason that people say that "race" is a bit difficult to define is the realization that

• the within group variance is so much larger than the between group variance.
• the high dimensional geometry of racial genetics is a bit more complicated than we would have suspected
• there are huge social factors that have an influence over behavior and abilities, and it is difficult to separate them.
• although the "means" of the distributions of various abilities and traits across populations might be slightly different, the distributions overlap so much and the distributions are so heavy-tailed, that it is a bit difficult to apply any of that to individuals.

Part of my uncomfortableness with the concept of "race" as well comes from the negative attributes that outside groups are glad to assign to any group that self-identifies as a "race", or that others identify as a "race". We have been down that road way too many times, and it is not pretty. People love to have "pride", but often that is a codeword for hating others, and becomes an excuse for others to hate them.--Filll 05:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I was already thinking about the five children of a missionary couple in Taiwan. The father's mother was Chinese and his father was a Texan. The mother was a Texan too. I got to know them well because I tutored one of their children in remedial reading, having learned how from a SNCC project in East Palo Alto. They mentioned that their children were not accepted as white and were not accepted as Chinese. They had the warm love of both parents and they were wonderful kids so I guess they did not suffer greatly for it. But I could see the potential for harm.

Chinese people treated me very well during the seven years I lived in Taiwan. I never felt that I was discriminated against because of [race]. I found that little kids had a delightful openness about their curiosity regarding difference. Adults seemed to me to judge people not by [race] but by whether one was enculturated. If one could acquit oneself well by their cultural standards, that was enough for them. For my part, I had to realize that I was a guest in their country and so would be well advised to play by their rules whenever I could without bending my own deepest standards.

One of the martyrs to hatred in the United States, Hakim A. Jamal, quoted Malcolm X as follows on page 82 of his book From the Dead Level--Malcolm X and Me: "No man or race of people can ever possibly change if he uses, and continues to use, himself as a model!" I would add that one should not use one's oppressor as a model either. P0M 05:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with much that has been said recently, in the sense that I believe that "races" are real. Also I think that people here have been avoiding some very essential though to be sure controversial topics. I once read in a book (I'll try to search or recall the title) that the Mediterranean climate and sun had allowed had been very conducive to the evolution of those physical traits which we have to associate with "classical beauty," indeed that from an least purely aesthetic position, as far as physical beauty was concerned the Mediterranean Type had reached a sort of apex in this regard (if true, we may want to somehow include this, however tangentially in this article). Note, the book and thus my remarks are in no way concerned with human intelligence, physical stamina or agility, or "civilizational genius."--Cupidon 06:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

1) "the within group variance is so much larger than the between group variance." This has been addressed and answered above.

2) I dont see how Barak Obama can be mistaken for a white.Lukas19 13:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

And what did the learned discussion here decide about within group variance and how it was "answered"? I guess I was asleep or too stupid to understand it (this is sarcasm in case you do not get it).--Filll 14:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I much agree. His face is almost invariably negroid, though his skin could be darker to be sure.--Cupidon 13:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

So you people think you could always tell what "race" someone is from how they look? And the people I heard interviewed about Barak Obama are just stupid crackers or people who secretly knew he was black but pretended to be surprised when they were interviewed to be politically correct? If you guys are so sure of yourselves and your ability to tell races from looking at people, why do you not take this test?--Filll 14:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a good friend whose parents are from India. He has pretty dark skin, but more or less European features. When we both moved to the US, the "black" Americans were complete jerks to him because they did not understand that you could have dark skin and not be an African American. This had them all completely puzzled. They did not understand who or what he was or where his ancesters were from. This happened OVER and OVER and OVER among educated African Americans at some of the most elite American institutions. This reminds me of the rules that the Germans had for deciding who was a Jew by measuring skull dimensions, nose length, and so on. I wonder if Senator George Allen, who we now find out is a member of the Jewish race, would have passed these Nazi tests or not? Also, remember George Allen's mother comes from Africa. So does that give him African roots? --Filll 14:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont know George Allen. I also dont claim to be "so sure of myself and my ability to tell races from looking at people". I might not seperate an Indian from an African but I can tell a white from a non-white. I've seen Obama and it's quite clear he's non-white.

About your sarcasm, read the above section. Lukas19 15:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I gave you a link to see George Allen to test your skills at detecting races. He was a Senator from Virginia who lost a very close re-election race recently, WIDELY known to be considering a race for US presidency in 2008 and is well known for making racial faux pas, calling black people niggers, using the term "macaca", etc. So you never heard of him huh? Interesting. That speaks volumes. So you can always tell a white from a nonwhite? What about the PBS quiz? How did you do? What about the black people that can "pass" for white? And I read the section above. It mainly sounds like whining from people who do not have a clue. It does not answer anything.--Filll 15:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The pic you gave was inadequate. He's wearing a big hat and the pic is taken from distance. And there is only 1 pic, I can only see one angle of his face. I dont really follow US politics so I dont know him and what "volumes this speak", besides the fact that I'm not interested. PBS quiz is based on Federal US goverment categories. An authority I do not recognize. I'd classify most of those people as mixed and some hispanics as white, some as mixed and some as black. I do not recognize Mid Easterns as white and neither most North Europeans would, IMO, unlike your Census.

I also find it quite hilarious that you think the paper of A. W. F. Edwards - a British statistician, geneticist, and evolutionary biologist who is a Life Fellow of Gonville and Caius College and retired Professor of Biometry at the University of Cambridge and a pupil of R.A. Fisher, and who has written several books and numerous scientific papers - "sounds like whining from people who do not have a clue". It rather reflects your own ignorancy. Lukas19 15:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I see. So if you had more pictures you would be able to tell if Senator Allen was a Jew or not? Interesting. And here you do not recognize the US government categories, but we have other editors here on the page ready to tear anyone to shreds who does not shut up and accept those government standards as the only worthwhile standards. Which proves my point. That is, no one agrees. And from the sounds of it, you did not do so great on the test. Wow is that ever a surprise to me !!!! (Not). And of course you have different opinions about Arabs and Jews, being a nice unbiased European. We know your nice European history in that regard. Again, it proves my point that NO ONE AGREES. Do you dispute that people do not agree? Well you are free to argue that everyone agrees, like the other editor who is doing the same on this page but whose views are opposite yours. And what does that show me? THAT NO ONE AGREES. I was not aware that A. W. F. Edwards was contributing to the discussion above. What esteemed company, but if he wrote some of what we see above, he might be getting a bit senile. I am not referring to his book, which I was not aware was reproduced in full on the page above. And I would point out that on racial issues, R. A. Fischer was well known to have produced completely embarassing rubbish by all modern stasticians, besmirching an otherwise admirable career. This is very well known among professional statisticians. You did not know that? Oh my. That does speak further volumes.--Filll 03:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

1)Read what's being said before you answer. I said: "I might not seperate an Indian from an African but I can tell a white from a non-white." As you can see I didnt claim to "tell if Senator Allen was a Jew or not". Just if he is white or not.

2) If your only argument is a test of TV channel...Wow is that ever a surprise to me !!!! (Not).

3) Again, people dont agree on who is young and who is old. This does not mean old and young concepts do not exist.

4) A. W. F. Edwards was not contributing above but I was making direct quotes of him. You seem to still have not read the section I had pointed out before or have not understood it. You seem to make stupid points just to be sarcastic but again, it reflects on you. Not on Edward's senility....Lukas19 13:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

1)Well your racial radar is not very good if you cannot tell he has an African background as well as being Jewish. Which was exactly my point.

It's good enough for me. Jewish is not a race. As for African background, insufficient pictures, as I said.Lukas19 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

So of course what you say goes, since you are such an authority. And we should all follow whatever you say. I see. So all the people who claimed that Jews were a separate race, including Jews and those who persecuted them were wrong. Including the group at Oxford studying Jewish genetic history. All wrong because Lukas19 has spoken. I will call the research team at Oxford, and tell them to quit their jobs. And tell all my Jewish friends. And all those neoNazis and falangists. Many many people claim they can tell a Jew immediately from their looks, just as you claim you have 100% accuracy at detecting people from Subsaharan Africa, even those with 99% European heritage. I have no reason to doubt your claims but I should reject all those claims of people who claim to be able to detect Jews by sight since you have claimed it is crap. But you are tuned so you can only tell people of African origin and always are correct, even if they have only 1% African ancestry. Wow. Even if they have very white skin, whiter than yours. And blonde hair and blue eyes. I am impressed. And I suppose you can tell by sight if a dark skinned person is from Australia or from the mountainous regions of China or the Phillipines. It must make you feel good to have such incredible powers. But frankly, I don't believe it. Pretend I am from Missouri, the ShowMe State.--Filll 20:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

2)You are free to dismiss the documentary that appeared on PBS. Being from Europe, and being very young, you might not realize what PBS is. That is ok. However, that does not dismiss my point, that it is not always easy to define who is black and who is not, and to be able to tell. What about albinos? What about people with vitilago? What about people with mixed parentage? What about people who can pass? What about the Shan or the Aeta or the Aborigines? What about the natives of Paraguay? Some Inuit look not too dissimilar from dark skinned peoples from Africa? Some Berbers from Africa look pretty white. What about the Ainu? They look pretty European. My point is, this is not easy always. And the people who claim it is, usually have some negative agenda in mind. Like hatred of groups different than themselves. The point is, people that are difficult to classify exist. I have met many in my life. I do not care if 1% of the population is hard to classify or 0.1% or 10% (although I suspect it is higher than that, because I have personally met several people like this). The point is, our cherished idea that we can always tell others of another race is wrong. Even if it is in a minority of cases. I have seen pictures of Berbers that look awfully white to me. I would not have a clue that they were not regular white people of European extraction. I have seen many "black" models that I would not have known if they were African American unless they told me. Colin Powell looks a heck of a lot whiter than most Italians I know, and a fair number of white members of my family. Ask most Japanese, and they claim that it is obvious that Koreans look nothing like them, but genetic tests and reality demonstrate that this is not at all true. The autochthonous people of Japan, the Ainu look awfully European, but genetically they are quite distant. Although the Lemba (who look just like a Bushman tribe) look far less Jewish than the average white Italian, they are in fact far closer genetically by some measures. Kennewick man appears to demonstrate that Caucasians were present in the Americas 10,000 years ago. The indigenous people of the Arctic are all supposed to be darker skinned, but the Saami do not fit this model. The point is, things are more complicated and ambiguous and contradictory than we want to believe with our nice neat models. There are counterexamples. There are intermediate cases. Our racial groups are not discrete and well-separated. It is naive to believe that things are so nice and neat, the way the Klu Klux Klan claims, and the way Black Pride activists want to claim. Sure one can tell some people by their looks. But it is not quite that simple, and to claim it is, is to be mired in the past, and sort of wishful thinking.

Your points are irrelevant to me as they are your anectodal experiences. I havent met anyone whom I cant tell if he is white or not. If you think Colin Powell looks more white than Italians, it means your "race-dar" sucks, IMO. Maybe it is because you are American and Americans consider some people who wouldnt be considered white in Europe as white. Also many whites in USA are actually mixed. 1/3rd of white Americans have less than 90% European ancestry. Lukas19 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You can reject whatever you like. I would be glad to heap personal insults on you like you seem to do to others here, but it is pointless and a waste of time. In your case, it would be far too easy to reply in kind as well. What is the challenge in that? Like taking candy from a baby. And that is not what Wikipedia is for. And I think some things are finally penetrating into your skull however. You stated:

Americans consider some people who wouldnt be considered white in Europe as white.

Yes that is it exactly. You might be starting to get it. And the same with black people. Because as I have said over and over, trying to get people here to understand:NO ONE AGREES ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF BLACK PEOPLE (AND WHITE PEOPLE). I do not know why this is so hard for you to understand or accept. People do not agree. And that is what the article is about. I am not sure about your statistics about African parentage for American "whites", but I would not be surprised. The same is true of American "blacks". And it is all sort of stupid, since the genetics of Africans and Europeans is so similar anyway. As I have said over and over trying to get people like you to understand. You can sit there pleased with yourself that you are racially "pure" and you have an eagle eye for detecting those "filthy" blacks who are so different than you, but I think we all know what your agenda is. You have revealed it in ample measure here. --20:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

3)The point is NOT that biological characteristics like skin color and age do not exist. The point is that DIFFERENT PEOPLE DO NOT AGREE ON WHO IS BLACK because that is a sort of arbitrary category and social construct. And also, is it useful? It is somewhat biologically useful to know someone's age, but it does not determine everything. Not all women get osteoporosis at the same age. Not all women start their menses at the same age. Not all men get prostate cancer at the same age. Not everyone gets Alzheimer's disease at the same age. And on and on and on. There are no nice clean categories and nice clean rules and universal agreement for racial categories, just like there are not for age.

If people dont agree on definition it still doesnt meant Black people dont exist. It rather means we should include all sourced claims...Lukas19 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Well duh. Of course, that is the point of the article, or did you just think of that? Should I give you a silver star? My gosh.--Filll 20:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

4)I admit that in the huge mess that this page has turned into, I did miss the quote from A. W. F. Edwards. He does claim that in fact the statements that within group variance is greater than between group variance are wrong. Without digging into this for untold hours, it is a bit difficult to know what this means. Are the scientists who make the opposite claim wrong? Stupid? Did they have bad data? Or, are we comparing apples to oranges here? After all, we do not have a definition of the "groups" involved. That is the entire point of this article, as I have said over and over and over:THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL AGREEMENT ABOUT WHO IS BLACK. I will also point out that just claiming variance alone is not sufficient to make sense of the statement. Variance of what trait or collection of traits? And how were the data processed or culled or projected or transformed to produce the variables on which this statement is based? Without knowing all this we cannot really understand what is being said.

Dont blame the page. It was your own stupid mistake. Especially considering that quotes were written between huge purple wiki-quotes, it was easy to spot. I directed you to it several times and you kept missing it and answering with sarcastic comments which became much more ironic after your admission. Edwards made his paper in 2003 so it hasnt been popularized like Lewontin's arguments which was made in 1970's.Lukas19 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I am glad to know we are in the presence of someone who never makes a mistake about anything. And after having read your two contradictory references, it really does not tell me very much. Except that you are confused and overconfident.--Filll 20:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Further: Looking at the two references you quoted, which I think are very useful to bring to the article instead of some of the warmed-over sludge that we have, instead of puncturing my arguments, bolster them. For example, from Jorde and Woodson [9]:

a. These clusters are also correlated with some traditional concepts of race, but the correlations are imperfect because genetic variation tends to be distributed in a continuous, overlapping fashion among populations. Therefore, ancestry, or even race, may in some cases prove useful in the biomedical setting, but direct assessment of disease-related genetic variation will ultimately yield more accurate and beneficial information.

b. Among both the scientific and lay communities, the notion that humans can be grouped into different races has been enshrined by some and dismissed by others. Even the definition of race varies considerably, depending on context and criteria2, 3. Nevertheless, race continues to be used in a variety of applications. Forensic databases in the US are typically organized according to traditional racial and ethnic categories (e.g., African-American, European-American, Hispanic). Investigators funded by the US National Institutes of Health are required to show that minority populations are adequately represented in biomedical studies. Responses to medical therapies, such as drugs, are often compared among populations that are divided according to traditional racial divisions. Among the general public, the validity of racial categories is often taken for granted.

c. Not surprisingly, biomedical scientists are divided in their opinions about race. Some characterize it as "biologically meaningless"4 or "not based on scientific evidence"5, whereas others advocate the use of race in making decisions about medical treatment or the design of research studies6, 7, 8

d. In other words, approx90% of total genetic variation would be found in a collection of individuals from a single continent, and only approx10% more variation would be found if the collection consisted of Europeans, Asians and Africans.

e. At least two such studies have concluded that the observed clustering patterns do not correspond well to the subjects' geographic origins or 'ethnic labels'30, 31.

f. Thus, the South Indian individuals do not fall neatly into one of the categories usually conceived as a 'race'. In addition, examination of the posterior probabilities estimated by structure shows that most individuals in Figure 3 are not classified with 100% probability into one of the main clusters32 (similar results were obtained in ref. 33). In other words, each individual within a cluster shares most, but not all, of his or her ancestry with other members of the cluster (e.g., a member of the European cluster might have a posterior probability of 90% for assignment to that cluster, with 5% probability of assignment into each of the other two clusters in Fig. 3a). Ancestry, then, is a more subtle and complex description of an individual's genetic makeup than is race41.

g. Thus, populations are never 'pure' in a genetic sense, and definite boundaries between individuals or populations (e.g., 'races') will be necessarily somewhat inaccurate and arbitrary.

h. At face value, such results could be interpreted as supporting the use of race in evaluating medical treatment options. But race and ancestry are not equivalent. Many polymorphisms are required to estimate an individual's ancestry, whereas the number of genes involved in mediating a specific drug response may be relatively small50. If disease-associated alleles are common (and thus of clinical significance), they are likely to be relatively ancient and therefore shared among multiple populations51, 52. Consequently, an individual's population affiliation would often be a faulty indicator of the presence or absence of an allele related to diagnosis or drug response.

i. Data from many sources have shown that humans are genetically homogeneous and that genetic variation tends to be shared widely among populations.

j. because they have been only partially isolated, human populations are seldom demarcated by precise genetic boundaries. Substantial overlap can therefore occur between populations, invalidating the concept that populations (or races) are discrete types.

k. When it finally becomes feasible and available, individual genetic assessment of relevant genes will probably prove more useful than race in medical decision making.

l. But the potential usefulness of race must be balanced against potential hazards. Ignorance of the shared nature of population variation can lead to diagnostic errors (e.g., the failure to diagnose sickle-cell disease in a European individual or cystic fibrosis in an Asian individual) or to inappropriate treatment or drug prescription.

m. Race remains an inflammatory issue, both socially and scientifically. Fortunately, modern human genetics can deliver the salutary message that human populations share most of their genetic variation and that there is no scientific support for the concept that human populations are discrete, nonoverlapping entities. Furthermore, by offering the means to assess disease-related variation at the individual level, new genetic technologies may eventually render race largely irrelevant in the clinical setting. Thus, genetics can and should be an important tool in helping to both illuminate and defuse the race issue.

Quotes a, k and m echo exactly what I have said repeatedly on this page about the use of race being replaced in medicine by more accurate individual genetics. Quotes b, c, g, h, and e support what I have said over and over on this page, apparently to people who do not want to hear it:THERE IS DISAGREEMENT ABOUT WHO IS BLACK. Quotes a, d, f, j and l among others assert that there is a big spread of traits and that there are not clear racial boundaries. Quotes a, d, i seem to support the position that within group variance is larger than between group variance. I suspect the reason for the apparent disagreement with the statements of Edwards is probably a matter of definition, than a real disagreement. Quotes b, e, f, g, i, and j seem to suggest that the concept of "race" as a nice discrete readily identifiable category is problematic. All of these are positions that I have held here over and over. Introducing more of this kind of material into the article will help it considerably, in my opinion. --Filll 15:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Since you are still unable to locate Edwards arguments online and still come up with silly lines such as "I suspect the reason for the apparent disagreement with the statements of Edwards is probably a matter of definition, than a real disagreement"...

“ Conclusion

There is nothing wrong with Lewontin’s statistical analysis of variation, only with the belief that it is relevant to classification. It is not true that ‘‘racial classification is .. . of virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance’’. It is not true, as Nature claimed, that ‘‘two random individuals from any one group are almost as different as any two random individuals from the entire world’’, and it is not true, as the New Scientist claimed, that ‘‘two individuals are different because they are individuals, not because they belong to different races’’ and that ‘‘you can’t predict someone’s race by their genes’’. Such statements might only be true if all the characters studied were independent, which they are not. Lewontin used his analysis of variation to mount an un- justified assault on classification, which he deplored for social reasons. It was he who wrote ‘‘Indeed the whole history of the problem of genetic variation is avivid illustration of the role that deeply embedded ideological assumptions play in determin- ing scientific ‘truth’ and the direction of scientific inquiry’’. (5) Ina1970articleRaceandintelligence (11) hehadearlierwritten ‘‘I shall try, in this article, to display Professor Jensen’s argument, to show how the structure of his argument is designed to make his point and to reveal what appear to be deeplyembedded assumptionsderived fromaparticularworld view, leading him to erroneous conclusions.’’ A proper analysis of human data reveals a substantial amount of information about genetic differences. What use, if any, one makes of it is quite another matter. But it is a dangerous mistake to premise the moral equality of human beings on biological similarity because dissimilarity, once revealed, then becomes an argument for moral inequality. One is reminded of Fisher’s remark in Statistical Methods and Scientific Inference (12) ‘‘that the best causes tend to attract to their support the worst arguments, which seems to be equally true in the intellectual and in the moral sense.’’ Epilogue This article could, and perhaps should, havebeen written soon after 1974. Since then many advances have been made in both gene technology and statistical computing that have facilitated the study of population differences from genetic

data. The magisterial book of Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza (13) took the human story up to 1994, and since then many studies have amply confirmed the validity of the approach. Very recent studies (14,15) have treated individuals in the same way that Cavalli-Sforza and Edwards treated populations in 1963, namely by subjecting their genetic information to a cluster analysis thus revealing genetic affinities that have unsurprising geographic, linguistic and cultural parallels. As the authors of the most extensive of these (15) comment, ‘‘it was only in the accumulation of small allele-frequency differences across many loci that population structure was identified.’’

”

[10]

It should be also noted that the article which you say supports you DOES NOT consider about Edwards' claims. And even it says:

Because traditional concepts of race are in turn correlated with geography, it is inaccurate to state that race is "biologically meaningless."

Also, all these info are outdated since: [11]

Hence, finally, as I said before...Saying that race is a myth is IGNORANT and STUPID.........Lukas19 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You are free to defend whatever views you want. However, not everyone agrees with you, clearly. Even the article from Jorde and Woodson makes that eminently clear. And I guess those two scientists have no idea of who Edwards is, and their arguments should be rejected because they were too incompetent to read him. Or maybe it is because there is some other explanation? Like NO ONE AGREES , maybe because of the definitional, rhetorical and tautological reasons I stated. Or maybe we could just postulate that every scientist who agrees with you and your perfect race-detecting eyes from your position of pure white Caucasian European racial superiority and omniscience is unquestionably correct, and every scientist who disagrees with you is an incompetent fool. How about that? Sound better to you, oh pure one? And from reading your cherished quote from Edwards, I can see that some of the problem here. It is a question of robustness and departures from a diagonal covariance matrix. Are you an expert in developing robust techniques in these cases? Do you have a Phd in mathematical statistics? If you are not, then I suggest you have not the ability to decide who is correct and not. And I think your arrogance is a bit misplaced. Because if you want to go head to head, you will have quite a suprise, young man. So I suggest you retreat gracefully. I just would not be too confident about claiming anyone who finds problems with racial categorization is "IGNORANT AND STUPID" because that includes a lot of learned people with far more background and experience than you. But go ahead. It reveals your true nature. I hope you are proud of yourself.--Filll 20:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I also wanted to commend Lukas19 on finding the article [12]. This is exciting science, even though it is still very early to understand what it means exactly. I would like to have different scientific views and links in the article, including current science like this, to help the reader. I think that trying to turn the article into a racial diatribe is not really helpful for the average reader. I will also note that I am glad to admit when I make a mistake or when someone comes up with a good point or a good link, rather than some editors here who seem to view this as a fight to the death for their narrow POV. Just fighting will not get a balanced article written. --Filll 18:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the article is great. I wish you wouldn't make so many changes Alun Timelist 14:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Well you might think it is great Timelist, but it seems like not everyone agrees.--Filll 14:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality

I'm going to put a POV tag on this article. I think it suffers massively from a North American bias. In some ways this is normal for wikipedia articles, North America has the greatest number of English speaking internet users. But I think the systemic bias here is huge, the article suffers from a problem of POV due to this. I think that in North America all (or the overwhelming majority) Black people are or recent West Africa origin, so it is accepted there that Black is synonymous with West African origin, but this is merely a local perception and is not globally accepted. I do not think this is a neutral point of view. Indeed I think that the article seems little more than an attempt to define Black people as of recent West African origin, it strongly supports this definition above other definitions to the extent that it is little more than an attempt to discredit other definitions. This is a clear breach of neutrality. This article is not about African Americans, it is about all Black people. The article is so biased that for a long time there were not even any pictures of even African people in the gallery, except for Ethiopian Black people, and that was simply to reinforce the POV that "they are not really Black" because they are from East Africa. This article therefore suffers from a bias that only people of recent "West African" origin are Black. I do not believe this is a world view. The article is also hopelessly confused. Often it uses genetic data, but these are biased in themselves, because a person cannot be genetically "Black", it suffers from the distorted idea that a "Black person" is universally identified as a person of recent West African origin, and it uses genetic data specific for people with ancestry from this geographical location to define Black on a genetic level. We need to use more neutral language. I also think this article could do with a massive clean up, it's a mess, is full of poor English and the structure is terrible. I also think it could do with going for Peer review.Alun 10:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

1. When we say a Black person it should mean any person who can identify as black according to any definition, that is we need to be inclusive (inclusivity is the key to avoiding a racialist point of view). If we want to be more specific we need to use more specific language. For example we need to differentiate between people who are African American, or as West African, or as East African (who are considered Black by most defintions whatever the POV of this article).Alun 10:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
2. We need to avoid use of the term "Black" as a racial epithet, except when we are specifically refering to it as such, and it should be made clear in this usage.Alun 10:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
3. We could probably do with a synopsis of who is considered Black in different cultures and societies, and by different organisations.Alun 10:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
4. If we need a gallery there should be more prominent people, especially more from outside of the USA. For example Paul Boateng the first Black British Cabinet Minister, or Bill Morris the veteran British trade unionist (former general secretary of the TGWU), who is now a member of the House of Lords as a Life Peer (though unfortunately there is no picture of him here as yet). What about Kofi Anan? Another African who is ignored in favour of North Americans. We could even have Condolezza Rice, I dislike her politics a great deal, but there is no doubt that she is a prominent Black person.Alun 10:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

i agree with this point: We need to avoid use of the term "Black" as a racial epithet, except when we are specifically refering to it as such, and it should be made clear in this usage--Halaqah 13:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I second Aluns comments. Several editors (including African Americans) have made attempts to make this article more neutral from African American bias, but a very small number of editors, who have taken ownership of this article, have made it almost impossible. A more global perspective on Black People has been almost embargoed, or limited to the section "Other viewpoints" (previously called Alternative viewpoints). Peer review is a good idea. And yes, this article should be tagged as {{POV}}, or at least as {{Globalize}}. --Ezeu 13:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

If it suffers from North American bias, it doesnt mean it's not from NPOV. It means it just doesnt represent a worldwide view. Use correct tags...Lukas19 14:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the article suffers in many aspects, but the basic direction is not too horrendous. The claim is that no one agrees on who is black. Does anyone actually believe that there is some agreement about who is black or what the term black people means?--Filll 15:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The article should include some discussion of more current scientific thought and discussion about different features such as "black pride" and "blacks who can pass" and discrimination against other blacks by blacks over color, and a lot of other material I have seen here on the talk pages. I would like something similar to the PBS test demonstrating how difficult and arbitrary it is to classify people as belonging to a "race" in some cases. Jablonski's work would be nice to include. Of course, with all this stuff to put in, it might get too long so that has to be considered as well. --Filll 15:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

All those topics are interesting Fill, but this article really just serves as an introduction to the topic. Hence I think the primary focus should be on how the word has been defined by various people. There are other articles on passing. As far as sicence goes, I think that's only relevant to the extent that science has been used to define what a black person is. There are other articles that go into the indepth science behind racial genetics, but all we need to do is state the various definitions in a neutral way. And I think this article does that__ Whatdoyou 15:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

As I said, we really do not have space to address all the topics that might be germane and appropriate here. We can, however, provide links to these topics and material so that someone who wants to learn about them can. I personally liked the picture that we used to have of the Egyptian statue showing a black person sitting on a throne next to a white person, or the statue in the German church of the black saint in armor. But we do not have enough room to include everything.--Filll 17:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Alun's idea that anyone who can be called black by any definition should be described by black in the article is a huge violation of NPOV. The article is not here to describe who is black, it's simply here to describe various perspectives on who is black and who is NOT black. Descibing people as black because they're considered black by at least 1 definition is POV because it implies that the definitions that say said person is NOT black are wrong. I don't know where Alun gets this ridiculous idea that the article is saying you have to be West African to be black. I don't even think the term West African is used even once in the article, and Nelson Mandela is not West African. Some people say you have to be Sub-Saharan African, but no one says you have to be West African. Please read the article before you trash it Alun. And just because Alun is ideologically opposed to genetic definitions of black does not give him a right to censor them. Alun complains that the article has a North American bias but he is trying to impose a European bias. __Whatdoyou 15:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Alun's idea that anyone who can be called black by any definition should be described by black in the article is a huge violation of NPOV.

This doesn't make sense, and it's not what I said. What I said was when we use the term Black in the article it should be used in the most inclusive sense, because otherwise no one knows who we are talking about, for the simple reason that there is no consensus. In most cases we should avoid use of the word altogether. It's not pOV, it's common sense, any other interpretation means that the article is favouring one definition over another. Alun 18:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• The article is not here to describe who is black, it's simply here to describe various perspectives on who is black and who is NOT black.

Well the article doesn't do that. The article says people of recent West African descent are Black, and all other definitions are wrong. This is incorrect and a POV. Alun 18:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• And just because Alun is ideologically opposed to genetic definitions of black does not give him a right to censor them.

We can't have a genetic definition of Black because many people who are Black are not genetically related, and even come from different continents. Again, the genetic definition of Black used here presupposes that all Black people are the recent descendants of West African people. This is not correct. Alun 18:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not a European bias, it's his own...Lukas19 15:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

So I ask again, does anyone think that there is any agreement about who is a black person?--Filll 15:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I think everyone can agree that anyone with a high percentage of recent sub-Saharan ancestry is black. But now we seem to have a White European editor on a crusade to have the POV that Australian aboriginals and South Asians are black forced down everyone's throat even though these groups have no genetic connection to Africans, African-Americans, Afro-British, or Black Caribeans, and even though this idea is extremely offensive to people of African origin. But who cares what people of African ancestry think? We wouldn't want to offend the White European editor who feel African-Americans don't know anything about what it means to be black. Whatdoyou 16:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• But now we seem to have a White European editor on a crusade to have the POV that Australian aboriginals and South Asians are black forced down everyone's throat even though these groups have no genetic connection to Africans, African-Americans, Afro-British, or Black Caribeans, and even though this idea is extremely offensive to people of African origin.

Ok so maybe most people's definitions might include people who recently came from a certain part of Africa. But obviously there are lots of other definitions. And attacking someone who is white for their editing here is a bit ludicrous. Anyone can edit any article. You think there would be agreement if people you decided were black were allowed to edit? That is complete nonsense. I have been here long enough to see that blacks themselves do not agree about who is black. Some blacks think the word black is ugly, so they want to restrict its use and minimize it. Some blacks think that the word black has a bad connotation because American blacks have been such jerks and it is too much of an American term. Some think that black refers only to African Americans, or that African Americans invented the term. Some think that the term black was invented by whites to refer to blacks to discriminate against them. Some blacks want to believe that there is a black consciousness that includes people from all over the world including the Dalit in India and the Tamils and the Aeta and the Australian Aborigines. And none of them agree and they all were very angry at each other. Just read the archives. It was very ugly.--Filll 16:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course anyone has a right to edit the article. But it's bad enough when Africans get offended by who is and isn't considered black, but for a white editor to tell black editors that an article about black people is not politically correct enough is just funny to me. People must have way too much time on their hands is alls I can say.__Whatdoyou 16:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

You seem to have quite alot of time on your hands as well. Fill is merely stating the obvious. Whatever little consensus there is here, it is irrespective of whether one is black or white. --Ezeu 16:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Examining Alun's comment

Well let's take a look at what he really said:

• Defining blacks as only being from West Africa is too limiting: I have to agree. Do you not?

The article doesn't even mention West Africans so why is he even mentioning them? Is he trying to drag the whole "true/classical negro" controversy into the talk page too so we'll have more stuff to fight over.__ Whatdoyou

I guess you have not bothered to read the page above where this was a big topic of discussion. That is why he brought it up. And I have no idea what you are talking about with the "true/classic negro" controversy. But it is another example probably of how people do not agree about who is a black person. --Filll 17:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• The article has a North American bias: I have to agree. Don't you?

Not at all. I think it has an Australian bias. Australian aboriginals are mentioned in an article about black people? North Americans consider only African ancestry people black Whatdoyou 17:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Well if you live in Australia, Australians call Aborigines black. Aborigines call themselves black. This apparently predates the American usage, or at least its popularity since the 1960s. And the "black pride" and "global black consciousness" crowd frantically want to include the Aborigines as black people. But of course there is a huge fight in the talk page archives about this, since no one agrees about this. And it is not important what North Americans think. The article is not about what North Americans think, or at least it is not about what North Americans only think. --Filll 17:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

People are not genetically black

• People are not genetically black: My understanding of the current status of science is that this is true. You do not think so?

Of course people are genetically black. People of sub-Saharan ancestry give birth to people of sub-Saharan ancestry so obviously its genetic. DNA tests correlate very well with self-identification. The FBI can look a a piece of DNA and then tell the police if the suspect is black, white, Asian, or Australian aboriginal. Of course being black is genetic. You would have to be dumb to think otherwise__ Whatdoyou 17:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess you are not following the current scientific literature. And the discussions here on the talk pages. You can find the genes for skin color and test for that of course, but that still does not necessarily correlate very well with who self-identifies as black, or who is considered black under various rules. Again, take a look at the PBS test. There are too many exceptions to these rules and too much confusion. If there was a nice simple test to see who is black or not, this would be far simpler. That is why people disagree. And why current scientists have decided that race is mainly a social construct.--Filll 17:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you follow the current scientific literature? Please try not to sound so ridiculous when you are accusing others. It has a bad reflection on your own comments:

"Nevertheless, recent research indicates that self-described race is a near-perfect indicator of an individual's genetic profile, at least in the United States. Using 326 genetic markers, Tang et al. (2005) identified 4 genetic clusters among 3,636 individuals sampled from 15 locations in the United States, and were able to correctly assign individuals to groups that correspond with their self-described race (white, African American, East Asian, or Hispanic) for all but 5 individuals (an error rate of 0.14%). They conclude that ancient ancestry, which correlates tightly with self-described race and not current residence, is the major determinant of genetic structure in the U.S. population." [13] Lukas19 17:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This is not relevant. We do not accept Black as a racial classification. In North America nearly all Black people are of recent west African descent, and are therefore from geographically similar areas. Also being Black has a lot to do with the selective pressure strong UV light has on skin colour. There ia a host of information on this if you can be bothered to think outside of your narrow racialist perspective Thulean. Distorting biomedical research to try to support your dodgy racialist ideas is what you seem to do best. Go on accuse me of a personal attack, but read WP:SPADE first and look at your edit history. Alun 18:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Other genetic cluster studies also put all Sub-Saharan Africans as together, seperate from Australian Aborigines. And who is this "we" you are talking about? Also, cease personal attacks....Lukas19 19:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

But isn't that exactly the point, that Black doesn't refer to a "racial" group? Black people live on many continents and are biologically, culturally and genetically diverse. People of recent West African origin are not the only Black people, they represent a sub-group of Black people. There are other Black people in the world that come from different continents, but are still Black. Black is not a definition of any "population", or ethnic group or culture or society. Black people is used for massively diverse people from Indigenous Australians to Negritos to Ethiopians to West Africans, these people do not form homogeneous cultural, ethnic or population groups, but they are all considered Black by some societies. The "we" is the editors of the article, it is clear in the several definitions of Black from dictionaries that Black is not defined as people of recent West African origin. Indeed you should loook at the Oxford English Dictionary definition, you were very keen to include the OED definition of "white" in the White people article, all of a sudden you do not seem to accept it as such a reliable source when it diverges from your POV. How hypocritical is that? Alun 06:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Who said "People of recent West African origin are the only black people"? Did I claim such a thing that you are writing to me as if I made such a claim. Please try to read what's being said before you answer. Also, please do not speak in the name of all editors in this article, it sounds megalomaniac.

“ By looking at the varying frequencies of these polymorphisms, they were able to distinguish five different groups of people whose ancestors were typically isolated by oceans, deserts or mountains: sub-Saharan Africans; Europeans and Asians west of the Himalayas; East Asians; inhabitants of New Guinea and Melanesia; and Native Americans. They were also able to identify subgroups within each region that usually corresponded with each member's self-reported ethnicity. ”

I was just answering to the claim that "People are not genetically black". I assumed dark skinned people of mostly sub-Saharan ancestry are called Black. And those people do form a genetic cluster. Therefore it's ignorant to say "People are not genetically black". I thought Australian Aborigines were not called Black but simply as Aborigines. Instead of writing rather silly personal attacks and directing to me to essays instead of Wiki policies, maybe you should have pointed to Oxford definition earlier. However, it still does not invalidate my original point. If Black refers to "relating to a human group having dark-coloured skin, especially of African or Australian Aboriginal ancestry", people are still genetically black which is either Sub-Saharan race or Native Ocenian race. So maybe instead of a Black race, there are Black races. But it's still ignorant to say "People are not genetically black".

And please dont accuse me of "distorting biomedical research", Armand Marie Leroi, an evolutionary developmental biologist at Imperial College in London also has a similar interpretation about the cited material. Perhaps it might be you who do not understand these researches? Lukas19 13:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The data in this study only include sub-Saharan African people. They do not include other people who are considered Black. They do not include Negritoes, and they do not include Aboriginal Australians. According to the OED both Negritoes and Australian Aborigines are Black people. This study excludes them Hoe does this study define sub-Saharan Africans? Does it have a proper cross section of all of the peoples that live south of the Sahara? Does it include East Africans, who are also considerd Black, at least here in Finland where we have a rather large Somali community. People are not genetically Black, how do you define this? If you mean that all Black people are more genetically similar to each other than to any other groups then this is clearly untrue. People have very dark skin colour because it protects them from UV radiation. This adaptation has occuerd independently many times according to a paper I was reading recently, it's in the archive now, probably at the end of the last one. So your study concerns a group of Black people that live in sub-Saharan Africa, it does not concern all Black people. As a consequence if it has any merit for this article it is only to show that people in sub-Saharan Africa are more genetically related to each other than they are to other groups. So what does this mean regarding Black people? Well not very much, because it does not include all groups that are considered Black. It only refers to sub-Saharan Africans, so maybe not even to all Black Africans. So whay is your point? Alun 20:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

There are people on this talk page, and have been for months, that claim that black=SubSaharan African or black=West SubSaharan African. If you disagree with that statement, then you agree with what the article currently states and with me and with alun/wobble. And there are other black groups besides the SubSaharan Africans. And they have been called black for hundreds if not thousands of years. You can produce a genetic test for skin color, but there are many people with very light skin, even lighter skin than you probably, who are still called "black". So it is more of a social construct than anything else. There are not nice clean boundaries. There are contradictions. And the references you cite confirm that there is plenty of controversy and disagreement in the biological community on this issue. Which just serves to bolster my argument which people do not seem to understand: THERE IS NO AGREEMENT ABOUT WHO IS A BLACK PERSON IS.--Filll 15:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think one can tell certain things from genetic studies, obviously. We can tell that the Lemba] are genetically "Jewish". How Jewish do the Lemba look to you? There are numerous groups with dark skin around the world, each of which might be determined genetically, including the West Africans. But there are many who have some sort of mixed ancestry which make it far harder to tell. And some who look white who are of African ancestry, or some other disagreement between appearance and ancestry, or genetic data. One of the main driving forces behind this is to try to improve medical care for those of different races. Jews of Ashkenazi origin are more likely to be carriers of Tay Sachs than other groups. American blacks seem to be more prone to heart attacks and diabetes than whites. Some native American groups seem to be more prone to diabetes than other groups. Some aboriginal peoples seem more prone to alcoholism. Some Africans seem to have different musculature than other groups. Those of African origin seem to have less resistance to AIDS than other groups. Sickle cell anemia is mainly a disease that strikes those of African ancestry. Some of these are connected with social and environmental factors, so it is a bit difficult to tease out the actual influence of genes themselves. However, all of this is going to be obsolete pretty quickly. In a few short years, your own individual genetics will be used to determine the prognosis of your diseases, your likelihood of affliction, and the best course of treatment for any particular ailment. This will be far more accurate and far more useful than relying on something as arbitrary and confusing and ambiguous as "race". A doctor will not look at an unconscious patient and try to guess if he is an Aeta or an Ainu or a Gambian or an Aborigine or an Ethiopian or a Dalit or a Tamil or Semangs etc. The doctor will not do a genetic test to determine what race the person is, or mix of races, and then try to guess what treatment is appropriate. The doctor will know exactly what the person's individual genetic makeup is and be able to prescribe a treatment accordingly.--Filll 19:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Since this issue seems to be so contentious, it might be worth a sentence or two describing the differing opinions on the genetic evidence for race. But I have the distinct impression that this is highly controversial. And this is not an area that is settled yet scientifically by any means. I would also caution people who are so frantic to use the existence of the "black race" as some seem to want to do that this has, and very easily again could be used as a weapon against you. Even on this page I suspect we have had a few "white supremacist" types. And the black pride people want to accept the seperateness that Rushton wants to confer on them, but reject all his statements about how stupid they are. It seems a bit like picking and choosing to me. And so the black pride crowd here is grasping at straws, since I see plenty of people in the scientific community who are not particularly convinced by Rushton's arguments. And I am not that impressed with his work either, from the point of view of science. I might have to compile a more extensive discussion of this, given the rancor that this point seems to be generating.--Filll 19:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Obviously African black people are genetically black. However, since genetical differences between (within) black Africans are as varied as the differences between Africans and whites, the whole discourse seems somewhat discordant. --Ezeu 19:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Genetic distances derived from 120 allele frequencies in Cavalli-Sforza's "The History and Geography of Human Genes".

No that's not true. Look at the chart. Look at the yellow circle around Africans in the bootom right quadrent compared to the circle around whites in the top right quadrent. Is the difference within the African circle greater than the difference between the African circle and White circle. I think not. Kobrakid 20:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

As I have said over and over, I would not stake too much on that chart. For one thing, there are no error bars. And until one of you can even explain to me how that chart was derived, it is basically like a bunch of monkeys arguing about the purpose of a pair of pliers they found on the ground.--Filll 21:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It's already been explained Fill. Cavali Sforza took his matrix of genetic distances between the populations he studied and transformed it into a correlational matrix. He then applied PC analysis and extracted 2 factors that accounted for most of the variation in the world's ethnic groups. The first factor is climate, those who rank low on the Y axis of the chart appear to be in warm climates, those who rank high tend to be from cold climates. The second huge source of genetic variation in the world's populations in geographic migration distance from Africa. Those who rank low on the X axis moved far away from Africa. Those who rank high, tend to have stayed close. As you can see all the many different kinds of people in the world are not all independent groups, but can be grouped into a small nuumber of races based on genetic propinquity Kobrakid 03:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I know what Cavali and Sforza said they did. What I want to know is if you can explain to me:

• what is a "matrix" of genetic distances
• what genetic distance was used and why and what the problems with it were or could be
• what is a "correlational matrix"
• what is PC analysis
• how do you extract out 2 factors that account for most of the variation
• Are you sure that the factors are climate and distance from Africa? That does not sound like PC to me. If that is all you needed to do to see the grouping, you would not need to go through those other handstands first. Why were they done then? Or why not just identify one group as representing an arbitrary origin in this 2D space, and then correlate the genetic distance with distance in this 2D space?
• Where are the error bars (2nd moments) in this analysis? What about higher order moments? Can you do a robust analysis on this data and how would it change?
• What is varimax analysis? What are the alternatives?
• Is this the optimal separation of the "races"? Is there any bias being introduced unwittingly by the analysis? Is there any Winsorizing involved here?

I could go on and on. People are arguing like madmen about this picture as though it was the Holy Grail. And my point is, most people here could not tell me what it is. They have no idea where the picture came from or what its problems might be. They want to measure distances down to a fraction of a millimeter as though this means something. This is just a projection or nonlinear transformation of very high dimensional data into a plane that shows things tend to separate out in a suggestive way. Ok that is a nice result, but I would not fight too much based on this one picture, or draw detailed conclusions about distances of distant races from each other from it quite yet.--Filll 03:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

As another nice example, consider lactose intolerance. Most people of African origin are lactose intolerant. But a lot of African Americans are not lactose intolerant. One strong contradiction exists with the Masai, who are often lactose intolerant by our tests, but subsist mainly on milk (sometimes mixed with blood). Some estimates I pulled from the web to give an idea:

• Swedes: 2-4% lactose intolerant
• Danes: 2% lactose intolerant
• All whites: 25% lactose intolerant
• Africans: 95% lactose intolerant
• African Fukani tribe: 25% lactose intolerant
• Zambians 100% lactose intolerant
• African Americans: 75% lactose intolerant
• Asian Americans: 90% lactose intolerant
• White Americans: 12% lactose intolerant
• Australian Aborigines: 85% lactose intolerant
• Masai: 62% lactose intolerant

There is a big swath of land in Central Africa where the population is mainly lactose tolerant. North and South Africans are mainly lactose intolerant. Tribes that are lactose intolerant are right next to tribes that are lactose tolerant throughout Africa, Asia and the Middle East. What makes this even more complicated is that there is more than one type of lactose intolerance. So for this one trait, can we decide who is black and who is not? Can we decide who is of African descent and who is not? This is just too complicated in too many ways. And when one examines a lot of traits, I suspect similar things exist. It is just too complicated to draw nice neat conclusions, that most people seem to want to do, both those that think blacks are inferior and maybe not even human, and those who want to believe that blacks are superior and believe in black pride. This is just not a simple subject.--Filll 21:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Other comments about Alun's statement

• There are a lot of strange comments about how Ethiopians are not black: This is true I think. You do not think the article has a lot of this material?

There's also a whole section about how Ethiopians DEFINED black people in the ancient world. I think it's a perfect balance. Show both sides__ Whatdoyou 17:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think there are a lot more than two sides here. If you think there are only two sides, you have not been following this discussion very carefully. Ethiopians might be important from a number of perspectives, but lots of people disagree with that.--Filll 17:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• The English is poor: I have to agree. It is poorly written. That is "alls" I can say. You disagree?

It's poorly written because there's been so many disagreements and counter-arguments. This can sometimes hurt the flow. Not a huge problem __Whatdoyou 17:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a written document. So bad writing is a problem. It is meant to be accessible. So bad writing is a problem. It is supposed to be scholarly. So bad writing is a problem. Of course it is impossible to clean up the English when people are fighting so much. That is just reality. And you are one of the people fighting.--Filll 17:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

So what is so bad about what he said? I disagree with some of what he says, but I think he makes some good points. I do not care if he is white or not.--Filll

Virtually nothing he had to say is even remotely worthwhile.__Whatdoyou 17:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That is a ludicrous statement. See above.--Filll 17:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you to read WP:NPOV An agreement among all editors isnt required to write article from NPOV. Lukas19 15:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)