Talk:Black people in Ireland

Untitled

"As the Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland changed the qualifications for Irish citizenship in 2004, it is unlikely that Ireland will see another major influx black people in the near future."

Really? So, you can say for certain that freedom of movement in the EU, illegal immigration and constant attempts by corporations to open labour markets for the purposes of driving down hiring costs will make that the case? -- Anon. 194.46.185.59 14:46, 17 November 2006‎ (UTC)

• Notice the word "unlikely" in the sentence you quote? That means we can't say for certain (and I wasn't). But it seems likely that the 27th Amendment will curtail immigration into Ireland of White, Black and other people to a great degree relative to pre-Amendment 27 Ireland. PS: Please sign your messages per Wikipedia guidelines. Thanks and good wishes. -- House of Scandal 17:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Possible move

How about "African Irish"?--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 20:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Why does the template box say "African American"?

217.205.245.174 (talk) 22:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

There it's fixed. Thanks for pointing that out, I copied much of the template from Template:African American ethnicity, and I must not have noticed. --Parthian Scribe 04:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Stephen Kelly

Is Stephen Kelly black? I always thought he was Black Irish which isn't the same. Spiderone (talk) 17:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Notable black Irish people section

I've removed the section that listed notable black Irish people and pasted it below as it appeared before its removal. Please only reinstate this section if you can find reliable sources for it, per WP:BLP. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:45, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Notable black Irish people

The following list includes people who are black or multiracial. Some are Irish by birth, others by descent or naturalization. The list also includes groups with some members who fit this description.

Artists

• Lucia Evans (singer)
• Laura Izibor (R&B singer)
• Azi Jegbefume (singer)
• Yare Jegbefume (actor)
• Phil Lynott (rock singer/song writer/band leader/bassist/poet, Thin Lizzy)
• Samantha Mumba (singer and actress)
• Ruth Negga (actress)
• Kevin Sharkey (painter)
• Marcus Bennett (video gamer)

Athletes

Marc Mukendi (right)

• Monday Awoyomi (Association footballer)
• Phil Babb (British) (Association footballer)
• Leon Best (British) (Association footballer)
• Jean Biansumba (Association footballer)
• Curtis Fleming (Association footballer)
• Caleb Folan (British) (Association footballer)

Caleb Folan

• Liam George (British) (Association footballer)
• Chris Hughton (British) (Association footballer - First black footballer to represent Ireland)
• Noirin Kelly (All Ireland Athletics Champion three years running)
• Paul Matondo (Association footballer)
• Paul McGrath (Association footballer)
• Lennie McMillian (basketball)
• Mike Mitchell (basketball)
• Clinton Morrison (British) (Association footballer)
• Marc Mukendi (British) (Association footballer)
• Joseph Ndo (Association footballer)
• Jason Oladele (Association footballer)
• Emeka Onwubiko (Association footballer)
• Paul Osam (Association footballer)
• Darren Randolph (Association footballer)
• Steven Reid (British) (Association footballer)
• Sean Scannell (British) (Association footballer)
• Ian Simpemba (Association footballer)
• Darren Sutherland (boxing) (Won a Bronze medal for Ireland in the 2008 Summer Olympics)

Politics

• Rotimi Adebari, a Nigerian, was elected mayor of Portlaoise
• Máire Mhac an tSaoi and Conor Cruise O'Brien adopted black children

Census Info for Northern Ireland

Census Info for Northern Ireland clearly needs an update, its talking about 2011 in the future tense! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ultan42 (talk • contribs) 17:29, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I propose redirecting "Black Irish" to this article

Pinging recent editors of this article @Bastun, BrownHairedGirl, WhatamIdoing, Annie Kingdom, Theclownfromit, O'Dea, and Peipsi-Pihkva and regular patrollers of Irish people @FDW777 and The Banner:

As it stands, the term "Black Irish" redirects to the article Irish people, where it jumps to small two sentences where an anchor has been placed. Up until recently, this anchor was a single sentence that made no mention of people of African descent living in Ireland. Until I added an additional sentence that noted that roughly 10,000 residents of African descendent/origin identified as "Black Irish" in the 2016 census, the anchored sentence only mentioned the very waffle-like idea that, outside of Ireland itself, "Black Irish" refers to Irish people with black hair, which folklore suggests are descendants of shipwrecked Spanish Armanda crewmen. While I initially considered leaving things at that, I still feel like this leaves things in an unsatisfactory state.

My current feeling is that "Black Irish" should redirect to this more fleshed out article (albeit one still in need of a fair amount of work), rather than two throwaway sentences on Irish People.

What do you as editors feel about this idea?

Regards, CeltBrowne (talk) 05:24, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

@CeltBrowne: Sounds good to me. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:28, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Maybe I misunderstand you, so I am in doubt. Yes, there are black Irish conform folklore and there are black Irish conform skin tone. Both need their place. In separate articles or sections. The Banner talk 09:24, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

@The Banner: Until 2013, there was an article on the folklore-ish meaning of "Black Irish" ([1]). However, the article seemed to attract an awfuly high amount of psuedohistorical content. A discussion was created on the talk page ([2]) and the article was scrapped, with Black Irish then redirecting to Irish people. If someone wants to recreate an article for the folklore meaning, they're welcome to but I would imagine it would suffer from all the issues the orginal version did. In the meantime, Black people in Ireland is already up and running. So for the time being I believe that Black Irish should redirect to Black people in Ireland. As alternative to having a seperate article, the folklore term could simply be a section of the article Black people in Ireland. CeltBrowne (talk) 17:16, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

———

Any article, or section of an article, considering the phrase "black Irish" should first address the older meaning of the term, reflecting chronological precedent and linguistic longevity.

I never truly understood what is intended by "black Irish" as there are hazy, competing, doubtful definitions clouding the question, possibly the most persuasive one being descendants of Irish people such as western coastal dwellers who mated with visiting Spanish or other Mediterranean sailors in the past, fortunate descendants of whom can brown instead of burning red from those rare, unfamiliar, Irish solar exposures.

I understand the term "black Irish" as well as I understand the perverse saying, "the luck of the Irish", which I don't understand either, considering the decidedly unlucky history of the Irish. It sounds like sarcasm or mockery.

Then the article or section of the article should continue on to speak of the newer African black Irish phenomenon, referring to people of African descent living in Ireland.

I would be particularly interested to learn why so many African immigrants are from Nigeria, considering that Irish missionaries in the past also went to other African countries, seeding Hiberno-African relations elsewhere.

It is good to have black Irish people beyond Phil Lynott and Paul McGrath. I was six years old before I ever saw a black person and I had to wait until I was fully 19 years old before I actually met one. It is good that Ireland is no longer so numbingly monochrome.

@CeltBrowne: I am a little confused by what you are asking. You say that Black Irish is a redirect to a section of the Irish people article. Then you propose adding material but do you mean converting the redirect to a separate article about Black Irish or do you mean adding material to the Irish people article?

If there is enough material to make a decent article out of the Black Irish redirect, then I suggest putting a link to that in the Irish people article plus a short paragraph in that latter article describing briefly what would be found at greater length in the new link to the Black Irish article. O'Dea (talk) 11:48, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

@O'Dea: To be clear, what I am proposing is that "Black Irish" redirect to Black people in Ireland instead of taking the user to Irish people. The older/other meaning of "Black Irish" could be a section in the article currently named Black people in Ireland if editors feel its inclusion is important. CeltBrowne (talk) 17:16, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal, it makes a lot of sense. Incidentally, although I'd heard the story of shipwrecked crew of the Spanish Armada settling in Ireland and being responsible for sallow-skinned descendants in the likes of Kerry, I'd never heard the term "black Irish" applied to them. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:48, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Which of these men is your idea of "Black Irish"? The one with black hair and blue eyes whose family lived in Ireland for many generations, or the one with black skin whose family lived in Nigeria for many generations?

Before encountering this article, I'd never heard of Irish people of African descent being called "Black Irish".

Maybe we need a disambiguation page, since editors seem firmly convinced that the definition they're familiar with is the One True™ Definition?

That would also solve the problem inherent in having Category:Black Irish people (created a couple of years ago) using a different meaning than articles like Black hair, which says "People of Celtic heritage in Ireland with such traits are sometimes known as the "Black Irish"". Kay Summersby and F. Scott Fitzgerald say that their fathers were Black Irish, but there is no known African ancestry in their families. If we set up a disambiguation page, we could link to different pages for the two unrelated meanings. Perhaps the pages/redirects would be called something like Black Irish (African) and Black Irish (Celtic). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:45, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Before I encountered the article Republican Party (US), I as an Irish person had never encountered the idea of right-wing Republicans. Perhaps we need a disambiguation page, Republicans (World) and Republicans (America)?

That would be a rather ridiculous argument, wouldn't it? My ignorance of Republicanism in America wouldn't mean that's how the word "Republican" is understood there. Similarly, just because you are not familiar with how the term "Black Irish" is used in Ireland doesn't mean that's not the reality. As I noted in other replies and edits, in 2016 over 10,000 residents in Ireland identified as Black Irish.[3] Therefore it's a living term in practical usage in Ireland. It's also somewhat strange you reference Category:Black Irish people as being problematic when the category seems to be working entirely as intended: All entries in the category are Irish people of African descent, and no one has seemed to have confused it for meaning any other identifier.

As I have said in other replies, if people feel it's important to reference a secondary meaning, it could be done as a section of Black people in Ireland. I note when there was a separate, individual article for the folklore version of Black Irish, it had to be scrapped in 2013 for being such poor quality, being rife with bad sources and pseudohistory. CeltBrowne (talk) 18:27, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

About two-thirds of the people who live in the Americas are not US residents and do not think it's a good idea to call the US "America" (as if the US were the only part of the two continents that matters), and they would prefer that you called it Republicans (US) rather than "Republicans (America)". Someone apparently agreed with you, because that redirect was created 16 years ago. Republican was first tagged as a disambiguation page about 18 years ago.

I don't think, and I did not claim, that it's problematic for Category:Black Irish people to exist under that name. I say that it's problematic for us to say on one page that "Black Irish" means people of African descent, and to say on another page that "Black Irish" means people of Celtic descent who have black hair and blue eyes, without having a page anywhere that explains why a person with no African descent could be called "Black Irish". WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:49, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

That's fair enough but as I've said now in several replies, it might be better to just mention the folklore-ish usage of Black Irish in this article rather than as a separate article, as when it did have it own article, that article was plagued with issues to the point where it was scrapped entirely.CeltBrowne (talk) 20:30, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

It isn't a "folklore-ish usage", although it may be a usage more familiar to your grandmother than to you.

• "The Oxford English Dictionary defines the “black Irish” as “Irish of Mediterranean appearance.” Regardless of the source of the dark coloring, the term was also routinely associated with racial ridicule." [4] (The same page is also useful for sourcing the fact that the term Black Irish can also be used to describe people of African and Irish descent.)
• "You only have to look at the man, moreover, to see that he falls into the special category of the “Black Irish”—the Irish whose Iberian bloodlines show through in black hair and dark coloring. The fact that he is Irish—and Black Irish to boot – tells a lot about Nixon." [5]
• Black Tom Cassidy "does not share the phenotype which audiences would typically expect, but instead has dark hari and dark eyes and thus can be characterized as 'Black Irish', a term often used to describe those 'Irish of Mediterranean appearance' (OED)." [6]
• "In Ireland, the term 'Black Irish' has been used for many centuries as a description of people who had darker complexions with black eyes and black hair, like early settlers from Spain who were also called black Irish and the Vikings who were described as dark strangers" [7]

There are folklore stories about their ancestry, but the fact that light-skinned, dark-haired Irish people were called "black Irish" is not folklore. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:51, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Would you mind adding these citations to the Black Irish page which CeltBrowne has created and almost singlehandedly written? It seems their solution to not winning this discussion was to go make their own page anyway. The article is full of exactly the problem you mention: misrepresenting the term "Black Irish" as only referring to the Spanish original myth. The article is generally a mess which completely misrepresents its citations. I also seriously question the neutrality of an article with the subtitle "folklore". I am fully convinced that CeltBrowne is misusing Wikipedia as their own personal blog. The article is 100% own research and deviates almost entirely from the claims actually made in the cited sources. I even wonder whether deletion is the best option: CeltBrowne's personal pet theory is, I'm sure you will agree, not actually notable. Anyway, a good starting point is to provide citations for the existence of the term. Dantai Amakiir (talk) 18:56, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Have you talked about whether the subject of the article is meant to be "Did some Irish nationals have Spanish ancestors?" vs "Does black hair and blue eyes run in some Irish families?" We could have separate articles for these, e.g., Spanish ancestry among Irish people and Black Irish (appearance). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:13, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

This is now at least the second venue where you are making personal attacks against another long-standing editor in good standing! I would suggest you desist, and in future refrain from resurrecting ten-month-old threads, with a comment inserted in the middle of a debate that fizzled out. (There was no "winning" or "losing"!) Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:46, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

X-Men villains and Vikings? As well as everyone in Category:Black Irish people? The Irish aren't known for their Scandinavian blonde hair, so really, Black Irish are the vast majority of the population, it would seem... Hmm. Maybe we just go with the proposal to redirect "Black Irish" to here, and then include a paragraph here covering the various uses of the term. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:25, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I do think it would be a good idea to include a paragraph about the different meanings. Whether we do that by redirecting the term to this article vs Irish people vs a disambiguation page that lets people decide whether they want the African-related subject specifically or a link to that paragraph here is not especially important to me. (I think the US stereotype is that Irish people have red hair.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:07, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I think you're right, but how much is down to genetics and how much is down to L'Oreal is open to debate :-) Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:38, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I was redirected to this article from "Black Irish" where I wanted to learn about the historical use of the phrase. Does Wikipedia have nothing at all on this? I found an article elsewhere [8], so I'm sure we could source something from historians - even if it's speculation from qualified historians. Rklawton (talk) 04:29, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I think there's nothing. Would you like to start it? We should have something (maybe in more than one article). WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:15, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Slavery in Ireland?

Please post souce 98.144.238.191 (talk) 11:33, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

"Black Irish" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Black Irish and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 November 29#Black Irish until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. MB 01:41, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Enslaved africans?

We need to clarify the third paragraph, which presently says "Although many Black servants in Irish households were enslaved Africans, not all Black people in Ireland during this period were enslaved.".

Is this intended to mean that many servant had formerly been enslaved, or that they were kept as slaves while working in Irish houses?

Slavery was ruled not to legally exist on British soil in 1772, by the Somerset case, and it was abolished in the whole empire in 1833. It was initially banned in England by William the Conquerer circa 1100AD. I would have to check, but I believe slavery was outlawed in Ireland even before then.

If the claim is that Irish families were keeping Africans as slaves in Ireland around the 1800s, that needs some serious supporting evidence.

It seems vastly more likely that many black people in Ireland had formerly been slaves, either in America or the Caribbean, but they either escaped or were freed before arriving in Ireland. I'm also reasonably sure that Ireland is on the wrong leg of the triangular trade. The flow of trade was of slaves being transported to America, then tobacco and sugar to northern Europe, then European manufactured goods to Africa. Even for ships that carried slaves, they would have sold their cargo in American before they got to Ireland.

Can we just get some clarification here? 92.26.167.52 (talk) 17:26, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Black people are significantly underrepresented in Irish politics?

This is a nonsensical statement. Black people are significantly underrepresented in the the population as a whole considering it is a majority (vastly) white country. Now, if mass migration had changed the demographics significantly then it would be a fair point ;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.141.64 (talk) 23:04, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I take it to mean underrepresented in comparison to population share (not to mean that one would expect Black people to be represented to the degree that the white majority is). Cordless Larry (talk) 11:55, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

That is also my understanding. Richard Nevell (talk) 17:05, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

This article should be moved to Africans in Ireland.

Africans in Ireland is a better title. 5.182.37.93 (talk) 11:20, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

And we should remove the people who were born here, or are of American or British or Caribbean heritage? I think not... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:35, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps Irish people of African descent might be a less ambiguous alternative (unless the person who started this thread wants to include non-Irish people of African descent who are living temporarily in Ireland). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

The 2022 census lists 8,699 people who identify as "Black or Black Irish from any other Black background" (i.e. non-African background).

That's just under 13% of the black population in Ireland so I don't think a move to Irish people of African descent is necessary. Boardwalk.Koi (talk) 17:35, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 18 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus against the proposed move is clear, and there is no reason to expect that relisting will change this. BD2412 T 00:08, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

---

Black people in Ireland → Black Irish (people) – Black Irish in Ireland is now an identity with thousands of Black people in Ireland identifying as Black Irish. I think it should be the main title of the place with (people) at the end to discern it from the (folklore) article. Freee Contributor (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: There is another group of people known as Black Irish, so the proposed title is unacceptably ambiguous. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

But in Ireland, this term is generally used for Black people in Ireland. Black Irish is a term used mainly outside of Ireland. Freee Contributor (talk) 08:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

The fact that it is a term used with different meanings by different people is the reason the term should continue to be disambiguated. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 11:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

What about Black Irish (Black background)? Freee Contributor (talk) 11:24, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per BarrelProof—blindlynx 23:45, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. No primary topic for Black Irish, which commonly means something entirely different. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, Black Irish already means something.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: The proposed move is retaining disambiguation as there is apparently no primary topic, the other one being Black Irish (folklore). Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 08:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  It is not proposing a title that distinguishes between the two topics. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:30, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't follow - one is about the folkloric story that Spanish sailors who survived the storm that sank most of the Spanish Armada had relations with Irish women, resulting in Irish people of dark complexion and hair colour; the other is about people who are Black and Irish. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 18:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  The first topic is about real people who have been the subject of a fictional or at least incorrect explanation of their ethnic background. Whether real or fictional, these people have been called Black Irish people. The proposed title does not distinguish the topic of this article from that topic. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I did reply to you with "What about Black Irish (Black background)?". Freee Contributor (talk) 11:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  What does "Black background" mean. Nobody uses that - they say "I'm Black", "I'm Black-Irish", etc., not "I have a Black background." Not a natural disambiguator, at all. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  It would mean in this case that Black Irish in this article refers to those of a Black background as seen in Ireland's official census. ""Black or Black Irish from any other Black background" (i.e. non-African background)." Freee Contributor (talk) 20:29, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support. More natural title. There are over 76,000 Black people in Ireland. The Irish-American "Black Irish, begorrah" thing is just weird, and, in any case, is based on a myth. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Myth or not, it is a very commonly seen expression and not just in America. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:07, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Yes, it would be a mistake to think myths are unimportant and should be ignored. We should provide information so that people understand that the myth exists and that it is a myth, describe the history of the myth, and show how prevalent the myth has been. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

    But it's also not used in Ireland. In Ireland, Black Irish specifically refers to Black people in Ireland and is in the census officially. While the folklore is slowly fading out. Plus, I don't think there really are any current people who identify with the Black Irish folklore. Freee Contributor (talk) 20:28, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.