Talk:Blue Mosque, Yerevan

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Only extant building of the Iranian period claim

Yerevan's Zoravor Surp Astvatsatsin Church, from 1693, also dates from the period of Persian control of Yerevan. Because of this I have deleted the "and the only extant building of the Iranian period in Yerevan" claim that was in the lead. 92.17.52.89 (talk) 19:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Issues of implied and stated Iranian ownership

There are a number of claims that need sources or need rewording. The lede "serving Iranians" claim implies non-Iranian Muslims cannot use it but no source unambiguously states this. The wording in the "today" section implies the same when it says "religious and cultural center for the Iranians residing in Armenia and Iranian tourists visiting Armenia". The cited source for this actually says "serves as a hub for a growing number of Iranian residents and tourists". So, is it open for worship for Iranian passport holders only? Are the Mullahs Iranian? Will they kick out non-Iranians? What about non-Shia Muslims? There also seems an over-reliance on the Darieva source, and I don't see why there has to be so many direct quotations from this source within the text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.3.118.48 (talk) 15:23, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Darieva

• Darieva notes that it served as a Friday mosque for "Yerevan’s Muslim (mostly Azeri-speaking) population, until the middle of the 1920s."

"mostly Azeri-speaking" is vague on time period, hence I believe it should be removed. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 12:50, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

How is it vague? ----Երևանցի ^talk 07:45, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Because it doesn't say when the Azeris began using the Persian mosque. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 18:02, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

But it does say until when and it's factually correct. ----Երևանցի ^talk 08:25, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Yerevantsi But it neglects a key detail of when it went from being used by Persians to being “mostly” used by Azeris. And how much is “mostly”? If Azeris aren’t the only Muslims using the mosque, how is this relevant? ZaniGiovanni (talk) 12:31, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Where did you get the information that the mosque was ever mostly used by Persians rather than Turkic-speaking Muslims (i.e. Azerbaijanis)? The source does not have to explain everything in order to be included. Your concern appears to be that "mostly Azeri-speaking" is vague, yet I fail to see how replacing it with simply the "Muslim population" makes it any less ambigious. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 16:35, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Where did you get the information that the mosque was ever mostly used by Persians rather than Turkic-speaking Muslims (i.e. Azerbaijanis)?

Oh idk, just the fact that it's a Persian mosque? [1], [2], [3]

• Ritter, M. (2009). The Lost Mosque(s) in the Citadel of Qajar Yerevan: Architecture and Identity, Iranian and Local Traditions in the Early 19th Century, Iran and the Caucasus, 13(2), 239-279. doi: https://doi.org/10.1163/157338410X12625876281109

" A substantial redecoration with tiles dated 1305/1887-8 suggests a still considerable Muslim community in Yerevan in the late 19th century, 60 years after the Russian conquest. Today it remains the only extant building of the Iranian period in Yerevan." -- p. 252

"(...) religious architecture of the late 18th to early 19th century in what was the territory of Iran under the early Qajar rule"

"The toponym Yerevan is in Persian equivalent to Iravan and, more broadly, to Chukhur-i Sad, which denote both the city and the historical Armenian province under late-medieval and pre-modern Iranian rule" -- p. 243

"At the beginning of the 18th century, Yerevan was taken again by the Ottomans,16 but Nadir Shah and the first Qajar ruler Agha Muhammad Khan secured it together with the neighbouring regions once more to Iran. Subsequently, the advance of Russia into the Caucasus led to two wars with Iran in 1804-13 and 1826-28. In the peace treaty of Gulistan in 1813, Iran conceded supremacy over most parts of the South Caucasus to Russia. Yerevan remained a part of Qajar Iran, and even critical European observers were impressed by its flowering, but in the treaty of Turkmanchay 1828 it also had to be conceded to Russia." -- p .244

"After a brief Ottoman occupation, Iranian rulers since Shah 'Abbas I in the 17th century considered the South Caucasus as part of their lands". -- p. 244

Your concern appears to be that "mostly Azeri-speaking" is vague, yet I fail to see how replacing it with simply the "Muslim population" makes it any less ambigious.

It wasn’t “replaced” with “Muslim population” because “Muslim population” is in the source, “Azeri-speaking” is just a footnote. If you're going to restore a vague statement, please get a consensus yourself. This was discussed 3 months ago. Coming to this article and replying to my last comment from more than 2 months ago and asking me to "get a consensus" is counterproductive. I'm happy to discuss, but you're the one who needs consensus. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 19:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

The term "Persian mosque" refers to the architectural style rather than an ethnic designation. Everyone who prays in a Persian mosque does not become Persian.

The quote includes the phrase "Azeri-speaking". If this reliable source thought it was important enough to include, we should too. Here is the complete quote:

Originally, the Blue Mosque functioned as a Friday mosque for Yerevan's Muslim (mostly Azeri-speaking) population, until the middle of the 1920s, when it was closed under pressure from the anti-religion campaign.

I still fail to understand what you think the issue is with fully quoting a source. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 19:48, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I explain everything in my initial comments? And I didn't say everyone becomes Persian, the reason I'm mentioning that this is a Persian mosque and obviously had Persians using it is that the quote doesn't say when the Azeris began using the Persian mosque. It also neglects a key detail of when it went from being used by Persians to being “mostly” used by Azeris. And how much is “mostly”? If Azeris aren’t the only Muslims using the mosque, how is this relevant, and how this isn't anything but vague? ZaniGiovanni (talk) 19:58, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Why should a one-sentence quote explain every single detail about a single phrase? How is it relevant to a fact about the mosque's usage in the 1920s when the mosque started being used mostly by Azeris? Its relevance was determined by the reliable source who provided the quote; it is not up to me or you to decide. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 20:35, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I saw this comment today. I'll think about it and reply tomorrow, sorry. Didn't have time to edit Wikipedia these couple of days. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 11:48, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Why should a one-sentence quote explain every single detail about a single phrase?

ok I'll narrow down to 3 main points which I think are reasonable given the context of the quote:

1) saying “until” a certain year without a starting year

2) how much is “mostly”?

3) when did the change from Persian to “mostly Azeri” happen?

If you can answer these, I'll personally have no objection to having a direct quote. If not, I think we're better off without a direct quote per vague reasons, and it's not like Wikipedia demands us to have direct quotes at all times. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 07:29, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Golden, ZaniGiovanni,

Gents, sorry for jumping in the middle of your conversation. Just thought that sharing my view may help to reach the consensus.

Regarding the point 3, Mosque functioned since 18 century till mid 1920. It was Shia mosque, design of which some considered Persian. Demographics statistics 1830 and 1831[4] shows that Azerbaijanis (Tatars at that point) were the majority of the Yerevan population. 1873-1897 Azerbaijanis were holding 48-42%[5] of Yerevan population. Do we have any evidence it was mostly Persian and then changed to the mostly Azerbaijanis? Considering that overwhelming Muslim populations of Yerevan for that perioud were Azerbaijanis/Tatar, it is safe to say that it always was mostly Azeri speaking.

I do not see any policy based reason to remove material supported with the reliable source from the article. Abrvagl (talk) 06:20, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

What is 'Iranian' in this context?

Did the Muslim population of Yerevan consist mostly of Ethnic Persians before 1917? The answer is No. It consisted of Azerbaijani Turks.

Was the Erivan Khanate founded by the ethnic Persian or any other Iranian-ethnic group originated dynasty? The answer is No.

Were the Afshars ethnic Persian? No. Were the Qajars ethnic Persian? No.

Was Irevan an integral part of Qajar Empire? No. Then what is an "Iranian Khanate"? 213.172.93.41 (talk) 12:15, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Yerevan was in fact an integral part of the Qajar Empire, the Khanates were administrative divisions of that state. AlenVaneci (talk) 10:32, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Is Galichian reliable?

Rouben Galichian, an engineer, whose book 'Invention of History' was published not by a Western but by a Yerevan-based publishing house. He focuses on an insignificant ethnic Persian minority community if the pre-1917 Erivan city, while ignoring the fact of the presence of the Azerbaijani Turkic majority in the city or labels them as 'Iranians' which is obscurant. 213.172.93.41 (talk) 12:45, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Rouben Galichian is a highly respected independent researcher. Also, we shouldn't pretend that research throughout the Southern Caucasus is equally biased; Azerbaijani historical negationism is unparalleled in the region. What about the quote is factually wrong?

He rightly points out that Azerbaijani ethnic identity had not formed yet when this mosque was erected. The ruling class living in Yerevan was mixed between Persians and Turkic groups, their mosques were, as they all were Shia Muslims, identical. The inscriptions are all in Persian. Thus, it is much more accurate to label the mosque "Iranian" than "Azerbaijani" in the modern sense. AlenVaneci (talk) 10:39, 16 September 2023 (UTC)